Talk:Jalebi

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Merger

How about merging these two articles Jalebi and Zlebia? It's about the same sweet with emphasis in different locations. Xufanc (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree. --Macrakis (talk) 15:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

What about a merge between Jalebi, Zalabiyeh, and Funnel cake? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 22:05, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Completely disagree. We should sort out and clarify content, not merge and confuse readers. Unless the subjects of the articles are 100% identical.--Ideophagous (talk) 05:14, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Jalebi in Manasollasa

Manasollasa a a 12th-century text by chalukya king from karnataka already describes recipe for jalebi 60.52.50.71 (talk) 04:22, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

thebetterindia.com is not WP:HISTRS/WP:RS-compliant. This particular article is especially an unacceptable source, because it makes a vague claim ("Some of them can be traced to modern-day delicacies like jalebis, paneer pakoras and idlis"), without quoting any relevant portions of the text. utcursch | talk 04:42, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

The zalabia of arabs originally had a dough made of yeast and resembled luqmat al qadi and deep fried, and then soaked in honey and rose water syrup. The one made in manasollasa was from fermented urad dal/black gram batter shaped into round disk and doused in sugar syrup. a romantic poem praising zolobiya is defined as a shape resembling a chain with loops, seem to me that this was the original shape of the original zolobia, according to Khaleej times, It was in India that the jalebi got its form - crispness, colour and the sticky sweetness, your own oxford source declares it an indian sweet and so how is a jalebi except for its name related to zolobia of the middle east? 60.52.50.71 (talk) 06:28, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Feel free to add this claim with a reliable source. First of all, homegrown.co.in etc. are not reliable sources. Secondly, Jhangri (Imarti) is not same as jalebi. You need a reliable source that claims that "jalebi" is inspired by gharika, not the West Asian dish. utcursch | talk 17:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

How is zalabia the same as jalebi if Imarti not the same as jalebi, imarti is still pretty close to jalebi, but the zalabia is a totally different dish which has been credited as the ancestor of jalebi only just because it shares the name?. luqmat al qadi/zalabia/zalebiyeh is a totally different dish from western asia which has no relation to indian jalebi. As for reliable source, none of the reliable sources here mention any detail of zalabia's relation with jalebi, how jalebi is related to western asian zalabia itself?60.52.50.71 (talk) 02:36, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is whether the Manasollasa mentions a recipe for jalebi or not (as per a reliable source).

If you are asserting that zalabia has been wrongly credited as an ancestor of jalebi, feel free to update the article with an acceptable source.

If you are proposing that zalabia should be split into a separate article, feel free to request a split. utcursch | talk 03:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

im asking you where does your source mentions the recipes for zalabia and that zalabia is the source of origin for jalebi, you oxford source only mentions the word zalabia and then indicates that there was a certain dish called zalabia mentioned in historic arab texts and that it used totally diff ingredients, none of your info covers how jalebi derived from zalabia except its name, you should mention these info which would prove that zalabia is ancestor of jalebi? and how does it indicate its the origin for jalebi?, if you go to luqmat al qadi article it already mentions it as zalabia as alternate name. i dont think that zalabia is jalebi but luqmat al qadi. 60.52.50.71 (talk) 10:54, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll repeat this again: my contention is the topic of this thread - your claim that the Manasollasa "describes recipe for jalebi". I don't see a reliable source for this claim.

If you want to make any other changes to the article, feel free to do so with a reliable source. If you want zalabia to be moved to a separate article, try WP:SPLITREQ. utcursch | talk 15:40, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

okay im going to do the changes according to your own RS. 60.52.50.71 (talk) 20:20, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

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Proposed merge of Zalabiyeh into Jalebi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to merge, with stale discussion; objections focuss on both differences in texture and differences in cultural context that warranted separate discussion. Klbrain (talk) 13:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

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This article duplicates the information in the existing article. There is also a history of merger of these subjects on this talk page dating from 2011. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Opposed to merger. Often we find in Wikipedia articles that similar foodstuffs are called by etymologically similar names in different countries, but when these foods are examined closely, the cultural differences of those countries have produced changes in those same foods. The Indian Jalebi, while the name is similar in origin, is still different in form and in texture. The glazed Jalebi is NOT anywhere similar to the Middle-Eastern Zalabiyeh, as anyone who lives in the Middle-East will attest to. Besides, we find on Wikipedia separate articles for the names of foods made in different countries, such as Doughnut vs. Sufganiyah; or Roti vs. Lavash (both, flatbreads); or Stew vs. Cholent (both, stews); or Pretzel vs. Bagel, etc., etc., and there are many, many more.Davidbena (talk) 01:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Davidbena:, one major difference is the shared history of these two foods (via migration). What is your suggestion for handling that here on wikipedia? We should not be duplicating information. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

How much in these articles are actual duplicates? I would think very little. I'll review the pages again to see what might need changing.Davidbena (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I think both articles still need a significant amount of clean up, but historically speaking they don’t vary, and in terms of ingredients they don't vary much. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 02:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

The author of Jalebi has tried to make a list of different deep-fried dough desserts, just as we have for List of doughnut varieties, but the problem with that endeavor is that Zalabiyeh is in a class of its own, and is NOT intrinsically bound to Jalebi, as if it were derived from Jalebi. Both have their own cultural origins, although the names are etymologically related.Davidbena (talk) 02:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

You see, the Jalebi is in the Indian sub-continent, but it is NOT in "Arab countries." The one in "Arab countries" is Zalabiyeh and it is NOT the same as Jalebi.Davidbena (talk) 02:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Davidbena: Can you share here a reliable source(s) that says they are from a different history. Right now we have two RS sources listed saying they are shared history, and I found many more (but they were not added at this point). PigeonChickenFish (talk) 02:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I have just now removed the duplicate material that appeared in the Jalebi article.Davidbena (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Both articles provide the sources. The names are different and the manner of making them are different, just as provided in the sources.Davidbena (talk) 02:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Can you share here any source that supports what you are stating about the history? Right now the article for Zalabiyeh doesn't seem to show this. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 02:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

The article Jalebi supports no source that claims that all forms of deep-fried dough desserts were derived from the Indian variety. In fact, Zalabiyeh is an Arabic word, and Jalebi is a mere derivative from the Arabic. See for example the Arabic Lexicon Lisān al-ʻArab written by Ibn Manzur al-Ansari (OCLC 4770801194). Can you show a source where the Indian variety is the mother of all other varieties?Davidbena (talk) 03:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Again, what I said was they share the same history (as you can see with the citations) and the Jalebi wikipedia article is expressing this. Nobody here has stated that the, "Indian variety is the mother of all other varieties" or expressed so. If you think the one article merged should have a different name (like under the name Zalabiyeh, and not Jalebi) that would be different conversation. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 03:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

References

The only "shared history" is in the origin of their names, but culturally and physically two different desserts.Davidbena (talk) 03:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps the best way for you to understand what we're trying to say to you here is for you to look closely at two Wikipedia articles that discuss an alcoholic beverage, Tiswin and Tesgüino. Both names are derived from the same source, having a "shared history" in name only. However, the manner of production of this alcoholic beverage slightly differed between Arizona (USA) and Mexico, which accounts for there being two separate articles.Davidbena (talk) 03:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

The two articles were decided to be merged in 2009/2011 per this talk page. In 2020, you made a new page but it also had duplicate information to this existing page, as well as some new information. That is how this conversation got started. When you look at the Aush article it is a fine example of merged foods due to history (and in that case also name). PigeonChickenFish (talk) 03:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

What happened in 2020 is not bound by the mistakes made in 2009/2011. Perhaps back then, editors dealing with our kind of zalabiye here, in Israel, had a limited knowledge about its make-up and how it actually differed from the Indian variety. Again, this is tantamount to the two separate articles under the names Tiswin and Tesgüino, two articles describing similar but different alcoholic beverages. Not all regional variations of foodstuffs are merged. Look at Matzo and Unleavened bread. It depends on the prominence of the subject matter. Davidbena (talk) 03:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Davidbena: Can you share here any reliable source(s) that says they are from a different history or they are different foods? If no sources exist, this starts to sounds like original research (see WP:OR). PigeonChickenFish (talk) 04:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

This is obvious to anyone who simply clicks onto the links provided under the page info box, Cookbook:Zalabiyeh and Cookbook:Jalebi (Fritters in Syrup). The two are very different. Even if they were not different, just for the sake of argument, sometimes we find that where there are two prominent takes on a single given-issue, such as the "City of David," we are permitted to split-up the article into two separate articles, just as we did for City of David (historic) and City of David (Silwan), at the advice of an administrator, although initially there was only one article ("City of David"). Here, the material on each is far too extensive to be included in one, all-encompassing article. BTW: The earliest reference to zalabiyeh dates back to the 10th-century CE, as shown by our article. Can you please tell me the earliest written source for jalebi? ---Davidbena (talk) 04:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikibooks is not a reliable source (WP:RS). The existing wikipedia article for Jalebi has a history section with sources that answer your questions re: the dates. I am going to end the debate thread with you since no sources have been provided. Perhaps some other editors will chime in. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@PigeonChickenFish:, I'm sorry, but the History section in the Jalebi article conflates the history of the Middle-Eastern zalabiyeh with the Indian jalebi, mentioning the earliest known date where the zalabiyeh is mentioned -- NOT the jalebi. The Middle-Eastern zalabiyeh is first mentioned in the 10th century, in the Arabic cookbook Kitab al-Tabikh (English: The Book of Dishes) by Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq. There's nothing there about the Indian jalebi, which is different, although the use of the name jalebi may have originally started from the Arab variety, as purported by the article itself. According to the Hobson-Jobson (1903) historical dictionary, the word jalebi is derived from the Arabic word zulabiya, or the Persian zolbiya. You see, I was in the process of correcting this gross misunderstanding, but you reverted my edit.

I have travelled extensively throughout the Middle-East (Syria, Jordan, Yemen, etc.). I lived in Yemen for more than one year. Now I live in Israel. In these places, the word zalabiyeh is used -- not jalebi (which latter name is used in the Indian sub-continent, and differs from the zalabiyeh in its make-up). One of the main differences is that jalebi (the Indian variety) is dipped in syrup, as the above source says. The zalabiyeh eaten throughout the Middle-East is not dipped in syrup, as we learn from Dr. Yosef Tobi (Professor emeritus of Haifa University), in his book, Yalḳuṭ Teman - Lexicon. There, he writes on page 141 about the zalabiyeh traditionally prepared in Yemen, and I translate: "Zalābiyeh: fritters made from a soft yeast bread [and] which is fried on both sides in deep oil. There are those who add to the dough black cumin for improved taste. They are eaten while they are still hot, while some have it as a practice to eat them with honey or with sugar." (END QUOTE). I hope this was helpful. It is, therefore, fitting and proper that we have two separate articles for this deep-fried dough product, just as we have for Tiswin and Tesgüino which beverage developed eventually into two unique and indivual beverages. I will try and work on the Jalebi article and to bring it up to par. --Davidbena (talk) 14:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

References

If I understand you correctly, part of the problem here is that the word "zalabiyeh" can mean different things in different regions. While Yemen has a fried soft yeast bread; this is not true for all of these countries in Western Asia. In Iran/Persia (for example) this looks like s different food. The wikipedia article for Zalabiyeh doesn't have a plethora of citation support for a "fried soft yeast bread" for places beside Yemen (at the moment). Meanwhile in the Jalebi article the word "zalabiyeh" is specifically referring to the food of the same name that looks identical to Jalebi, made in a "fried, chaotic pretzel" shape and dipped in syrup. Are these two types the same thing, historically speaking; is this a transliteration/language issue; is this the same word used for entirely different foods; or alternatively is the "fried soft yeast bread" version is a sub-type/variation of the "fried, chaotic pretzel"? 21:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I can't speak for Iran, but the zalabiyeh made here, in Israel, is the same way that it is made in Yemen. Zalabiyeh is a generic name for fritter, just as the section entitled "Early known origins" seeks to point out. Wikipedia requires reliable sources, not a "plethora" of sources. Furthermore, you stand to be corrected. The zalabiyeh of the Middle East does NOT look like, in any way, shape or form, the Indian jalebi. Your major problem, from what I am able to gather from your posts, is that you are unfamiliar with both. All of your questions to me have been answered, but you have not answered one of mine.

Again, I'm not saying that there are no differences between the Zalabiyeh made in different countries, as there are, indeed, slight differences between them. What I am saying is that for there to be an article describing one of these regional varieties, there must be some element of prominence about that particular kind, similar to what we find with Sfenj, which is also a deep-fried fritter. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 02:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The fact that you think it's okay to questioning my knowledge on a talk page, instead of actually reading the two wikipedia articles or the citations speaks volumes. Personal experiences are not "facts" here, and I am sure I am not the first to mention this to you since you are an experienced editor. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 04:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

My friend, I do not doubt your ability as a good editor. I will, however, remind you of what this article states in its lead: "The jalebi can be served warm or cold. They have a somewhat chewy texture with a crystallized sugary exterior coating. Citric acid, lime juice and rose water is sometimes added to the syrup. This dish is not to be confused with similar sweets and variants like imarti, chhena jalebi, lokma, zalabiyeh, and bamiyeh" (END QUOTE). Where there is notability there should be an individual article. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 02:45, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree with the points already discussed by Davidbena that shared etymologies have over time (in this case hundreds of years) established in different common usages that we take into consideration for the scope of the article. Spudlace (talk) 14:53, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

The term "zalabiyeh" can be used to describe two dishes in present-day that are texturally-different, physically-different, and ingredient-different (but found within a similar region). This was one issue discovered in this threaded discussion. Unfortunately it's not just a matter of shared etymologies. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 08:16, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

That is correct. And this fact is brought out in the individual articles, without doing disservice to each particular variant.Davidbena (talk) 13:54, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not though. This is implying that the "Middle Eastern" or West Asian-variety of the dish is always puffy, and that is not true. This is skewing the large issue of the dish, towards specific regions of Arab and Jewish culinary culture. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 20:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

All the Middle Eastern variants of zalabiyeh that I have seen are, indeed, puffy (like doughnuts and sfenj), and where they are not, it is definitely the minority.Davidbena (talk) 00:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.