Talk:James Livingston (American Revolution)

Edit explanation

Explanation for this edit:

• First, the assertion that James L. was the grandson of "James" and Margaretta (Schuyler) Livingston was apparently based on a databse at http://www.rootsweb.com/~nysarato/batlla.htm#livjam. I recently contacted via e-mail the owner of that database and he was kind enough to double-check his facts against the book it came from as it appeared to me that James was actually the grandson of Robert Livingston the Younger. When he located the book, he told me that the database appeared to be in error and that he had corrected it to reflect the sources I had found (namely the New York State Museum web site).
• Second, this article had previously said that James's other grandfather was a "General" Ten Broeck. The only General Ten Broeck I have found is Abraham Ten Broeck (an article I initiated here) but Abraham was James Livingston's uncle, not grandfather. Assuming the "General" was referring to Abraham, I modified the relationship. If Abraham's father (and James L.'s grandfather) was also a General of some sort, that fact can be re-added but the article is now correct regardless.
• Last, the article had previously claimed that James L.'s great grandparents were Peter and Maria (Van Rensselaer) Schuyler. But Peter Schuyler was married twice and most sources indicate that James L. was descended from Peter's first wife, a Van Schaick, not his second. So I have removed the relationship to the step-ancestor, Van Rensselaer.

—Wknight94 (talk) 02:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Canadian or American?

it says he is American, yet he was born in Canada? Rds865 (talk) 04:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from a random reader, 15 years later:

This remains a good question and the article managers could do more with it. But it is a kind of academic or anachronistic to even frame it that way.

There is no meaningful difference (or it is at least a difference without a distinction) between “American” and “Canadian” prior to the revolutionary war and creation of the United States. They’re both British. (Not English, mind you.) Were he a French-Canadian or Catholic, then that would be different. But he’s not. He’s Scottish and Dutch, which in this time and place likely means he’s also Protestant.

His cultural and genetic origins are half-Scottish on this father’s side (and half-Dutch at his Schuyler grandmother) and 100% Dutch on his mother’s side. He probably spoke Dutch fluently, for example.

The meaning of “New York” was different from 1650-1750; to the people living thiere it was still a largely Dutch culture (the New Netherlands colony having been conquered by Massachusetts and renamed New York relatively recently) and the boundary vs the wilderness, the native Indian tribes, and the French/Canadian territories to the north… were not at all finalized. Think of the entire Great Lakes region as an active war zone, poorly mapped even, with arguments over who was in charge and different answers on the ground than on paper… for 200 years straight… and that’s the context within which to rethink the question of what was his identity. He’s a multi-cultural frontier aristocrat “roughing it” at the edge of civilization. (A contemporary analog, for food for thought: what would be Elon Musk’s identity if he goes to Mars on a rocket next year, and never comes back? South African? American? Texan? Earthling? Science-Warlord? Revolutionary Pronoun-Free Half-Android?)

After the American revolutionary war, Livingston can clearly be labelled an American. But during the war, on the literal frontiers while commanding a “Canadian” regiment serving in New England, his identity can’t easily be labelled as either Canadian or American (or Scottish, British, or Dutch) and he probably thought of himself as a patriotic Republican?

This is all especially messy (so truer) in upstate New York, where the physical and political boundaries were unclear, disputed and changing frequently for the previous century, including the ex-Dutch colonies becoming New York; the Massachusetts colony pressing its claim westward through upstate New York (and today’s Ontario) all the way to the Pacific ocean; and the borders between New York, Ohio Ontario, Vermont not at all agreed-to, until well after the war… decades after this man was born.

Remember even Vermont (a French word mind you, and a place simultaneously both New English and New French for ~150 years prior to the Revolution and eventual ratification of the US Consitution) where some of the soldiers in his regiment came from, was as matter of law an independent republic ie its own country during the revolutionary war and neither a colony nor US state while the Constitution was being ratified. Food for thought... 71.184.117.73 (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Born in Albany, New York

I’m not familiar with the man myself but evidence in the main text seems to point out he was born in Albany, New York, even though the infobox gives “Chambly, Canada, New France”. I assume this is an error stemming from him living there in 1775, so I’m editing it now. Tom (talk) 10:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Update from random reader in December 2023: There is a minor error at this part of the article, giving Albany New York as “USA” before the existence of the United States. The USA should be removed as it was prior to the revolutionary war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.117.73 (talk) 15:12, 29 Dec 2023 (UTC)

Good catch! I've edited the infobox to show him as born in the Province of New York. —C.Fred (talk) 15:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

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