Talk:Jammu

Jammu Tawi

Why is there a separate article on the Jammu tawi station when the EXACT SAME information is included in this article? One of the two should be deleted. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 01:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

There are three articles: Jammu, Jammu (city), and Jammu Tawi. They should all be merged into one article, preferably Jammu Tawi as this is the name of the town, with redirects from the other two. Vedabit (talk) 05:12, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

in the intro

with glittering domes of old mosques and super brilliant "shikhars" of temples creating a feeling of communal love at the first sight.

feeling of communal love at the first sight? a bit odd sounding and frankly just cheesy, no? i could be wrong of course, which is why i did not edit it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.169.86 (talk) 04:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Notable personalities

@Jeromeenriquez: You have added a long list of notable personalities.

• Have you checked that they are all from Jammu? I can see that some of them are not, e.g., Mehr Chand Mahajan.
• Also, please ensure that they are truly notable in the sense that everybody reading about Jammu would benefit from knowing they are from Jammu. For exmple, I am not sure if the IAS and IPS officers satisfy the criterion.
• Ideally, the people should be covered in a narrative rather than in a list. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Jammu genocide of Muslims

I still find it very telling that the same people who support the addition of information about the Mirpur massacre on the page about the city oppose it when someone adds valid links and summary to the Jammu article why should Mirpur article mention Hindu and Sikhs when the Jammu article has been censored? 2A02:C7D:151D:D100:1486:168:D052:EEDA (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

No mention this was the same season as the partition of India. Many of the residents were also refugees from Pakistan and the 1946 Rawalpindi massacre, where villages committed mass suicide in wells to escape forced conversions and charred bones that are still scattered. It's not a comparison and this is even after it was gaining and not loosing "land", as whole the minority comparison is drastically different and even after the partition India claimed a democracy and why green is on the flag, I'm neither btw. 129.176.151.11 (talk) 08:00, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

No mention of Hindus killed in Muslim communities Section

In 1947 Jammu massacres article, there is mention of "many non-Muslims, estimated as over 20,000, were massacred by Pakistani tribesmen and soldiers, in the Mirpur region of today's Pakistani administered Kashmir. Many Hindus and Sikhs were also massacred in the Rajouri area of Jammu division" in the intro but here in this article there is no mention of Hindus killings. Neutrality must be maintained. --Classical Arun (talk) 04:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

This page on the city of Jammu, as it should have been clear from the first sentence of the page.

And, please don't use bold face for anything except section titles. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Also many of the Jammu residents were refugees from Pakistan, that later sufferer from the infiltrating tribesmen and terror later as well. The page only goes over Muslims and during the 1947 partition, every village and entire countries were suffering. Jammu the holy site or home of Shaivism was a target, to secure nationally and one of the only Himalaya regions. 129.176.151.11 (talk) 08:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Muslim communities (Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 October 2021)

In the ‘Muslim Communities’ subsection of ‘Demographics’ section, please remove “and Jammu district” and replace “37 percent” with “30.4 percent “ including the citation, because the article is about the city of Jammu and the given figure corresponds to the whole district of Jammu. In the same subsection, add “in the whole province” between “estimates of the number killed” and “vary between”, since the current wording is ambiguous. Please also replace “less than 10 per cent of the population in the Jammu district” with “about 17.2 per cent population of the city of Jammu” including the citation, because the figures currently mentioned correspond to Jammu district and not the city of Jammu. —Unpetitprole (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. We should not be going back to information from 60 and 80 year old sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: 1) Are the censuses, the only available sources for the actual population figures, not to be considered reliable sources for these population figures? All figures already mentioned in the article are also derived from these same 60 and 80 year old censuses btw. If not, then the figures currently mentioned are not reliably sourced either. 2) My proposed changes are regarding only one thing: the difference between Jammu city and Jammu district. This article is about the city so should include figures of the city, not the district, which is currently the case. Instead it mentions figures of the district, which would be better suited in the main article. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

UnpetitproleX, I agree that the demographic changes within the city need to be covered. However, the district also needs to be covered because the city is resonsible for the administration and security of the district as a whole. I suggest that you present here your preferred version of the section so we can look at it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: thanks for converting this section into a discussion, I was wondering if I should create a new section. This will do. Imo, the whole demographics section needs a rewrite. I will follow up with my suggestions here. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 16:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Issues with the article, suggested changes and suggested edits

Firstly, I don’t think the article needs to cover the district as a whole. The district of today is actually only a small part of the earlier district, for which the figures are mentioned. For that there is the the main article about the violence. The demographics section of the city article needs to cover just the demographics of the city, mentioning past demographics very briefly if at all; this is also what is usually followed by other city articles on wikipedia. Secondly, this article as a whole is not a very lengthy one, so in comparison with the rest of the article, the information regarding the partition related violence, massacres and migration in and out of Jammu (including later migrations) is given undue weight. The demographics section should be demography, while the details about the massacres, violence, migrations etc, including about the violence in the district and province in general, should be shifted to History section, mentioned in brief there, while the more obscure details (such as about notable Pakistani figures from Jammu province) should not be in the article at all (could be included in article about people from J&K, or about notable Dogras, or other such pages if they are not mentioned there already). This includes removing the picture of Pukhraj whose association with the city is not at all significant enough to warrant a picture in the article itself. The separate section about non-Muslim refugees from west Pakistan, Pandit refugees, Rohingyas etc should also be shaved down and shifted to History section instead, with maybe a passing mention of its effect on demography in demographics section.

• Ofcourse, these edits are extensive, but to begin with I suggest the following changes in the demographics section (bold and italic text to be added, strikethrough to be removed):
  “The Jammu city and the Jammu district had a significant Muslim population prior to the Partition of India, 37 30.4 per cent by the 1941 census. … The estimates of the number killed in the whole province vary between 20,000 and 100,000.”
  “As a result of the violence and migration, by 1961, less than 10 around 17.2 per cent of the population in the Jammu district in the city of Jammu was Muslim.” (with the censuses, as attached in the beggining by me, to be added as references for these figures)
  “Many prominent Punjabi residents in Pakistan, including politician Chaudhry Amir Hussain, economist Mahbub ul Haq, Air Marshal Asghar Khan, journalist Khalid Hasan and singer Malika Pukhraj were from Jammu.” (This whole part removed per WP:undue because it definitely does not belong to the article about Jammu city and could be moved to other more appropriate articles as I mentioned above.)
  And removing the picture of Malika Pukhraj because of WP:Undue.--UnpetitproleX (talk) 17:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

This is in Demography section right now because the History section is not developed. When it is, there should be a section on 1947 Jammu massacres similar to Baramulla#October 1947.

@Kautilya3: Of all the cities where the demography was significantly altered by the partition, Jammu is the only one to mention district figures, instead of city figures. That too of a district that does not exist anymore and is now part of several districts. In fact Jammu is the only article to have a separate subsection specifically on the community that was targeted. The least that can be done is mentioning the correct city figures. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 16:54, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

If Malika Pukhraj is not important to Jammu, why do you think this Jammu newspaper says she is?

@Kautilya3: It doesn't say that? In fact this article is a very good source on why her relatively short-lived association with the city of Jammu (relative to the rest of her life) is not worthy of a picture in this article about the city. There are people whose contibution to and association with the city far outweighs her. The only reason the picture is here is to serve as an example of a Pakistani figure who was "from" Jammu. She wasn't born in Jammu, lived here at a time she was also frequenting and living in Delhi, she spent more of her time in Lahore than any other city by a huge margin, yet her pictures aren't present in any of those articles. Again, I don't see why there's an exhaustive list of Pakistani figures born in Jammu province, when there isn't a similar list of Indian figures born in Lahore division in the Lahore article, or similarly in Karachi article, or Rawalpindi article. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 16:54, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The article says She is remembered in the Jammu as a cultural icon and Lahore is still nostalgic with the resonance of her gayaki. Another aticle also describes her life in Jammu. All cities that have had demographic losses due to Partition should describe those. I will do what I can. But Jammu is exceedingly special. There is even a book devoted to it.

• Rehmatullah Rad; Khalid Hasan, eds. (2004), Memory Lane to Jammu, Sang-e-Meel Publications, ISBN 978-969-35-1572-5

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:30, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Congratulations on finding a second, less than 100 word article on her life in Jammu. This paragraph has more words than that entire article. The complete list is probably a case of main article fixation, maybe yours. And no, Jammu is definitely not "exceedingly special" among cities whose demography was altered by partition. There are books and memoirs written by partition refugees about their former homelands and cities:

• Pran Nevile (1993), Lahore: A Sentimental Journey, Penguin, ISBN 0-14-306197-6
• Khushwant in Lahore

Yet there’s no mentions of Khushwant Singh, Prem Chopra, Yash Chopra, Surinder Kaur, Amrita Pritam, Pran Nevile, Hargobind Khorana etc on the Lahore page, forget pictures. That’s because this stuff is usually reserved for “notable people” section/pages, unless relevant to the history section, in which case it is mentioned there, but very rarely in demographics section (I don’t think there’s any other article apart from Jammu). —UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that information about West Pakistan refugees, Pandit refugees and Rohingyas (if significant) should also be included. If you are able to contribute content, I can add it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 04:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Kashmiri Pandits were different, are the natives and pacifist mountain monks that were also preyed on. 129.176.151.11 (talk) 09:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Also, since you're only arguing against removing the list of prominent Pakistani figures born in Jammu province (or shifting it to a section or page where it would be actually appropriate), I'm assuming you have no objections to using the correct population figures for Jammu city. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 23:05, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 January 2022

In the last line of third paragraph of the Transport section, the link to Indigo is incorrectly linked to the indigo crop instead of the Indigo Airline. please fix it Apollo7701 (talk) 14:44, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Kautilya3 (talk) 14:56, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 April 2022

Sir in the section of Jammu Province, why only one side of the extension of partition riots are mentioned. Mirpur was part of Jammu province and over 20,000 Hindus and Sikhs were massacred there. Rajouri massacre again part of Jammu province witnessed 30,000 Hindu and Sikh killings. Bhimber kotli Poonch etc saw similar massacre of thousands of Hindus and Sikhs. Further muzzafarabad and Baramulla too saw large scale massacre of Hindus and Sikhs Further why there's so much bias against Hindus and Sikhs? In section on Sialkot why it's census of over 4,00,000 Hindus and Sikhs is not mentioned?? Sialkot city was rather Hindu sikh majority. Even Mirpur city in Pakistan occupied Jammu division was Hindu sikh majority. 117.98.112.155 (talk) 08:28, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 11:16, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 April 2022 (2)

{{edit extended-protected|Jammu|answered=y} Sir/ Mam please admit this request if you're neutral. You've mentioned that this article is about Jammu City and it's population was only 50,000 ( fifty thousand) Before accession and it was 70% Hindu then. The population increased because of a lakh Hindu and Sikh refugees from West Punjab and PoJK.

Jammu City muslim population was around 15,000, vast majority of Whom migrated to Pakistan ( fifteen thousand). Then why have you mentioned the impossible figure of 20,000 to 1,00,000 muslim which is 100% impossible figure in the article on jammu city and if you want to mention it about the whole province, why don't you then mention about 1,00,000 Hindus and Sikhs massacred in PoJk and Rajouri. Mirpur saw over 20,000 Hindu and Sikh massacred and Rajouri around 30,000 Hindu and Sikh massacred and thousands in bhimber poonch kotli etc..All these are part of Jammu division. Why you've ignored it and if it's about city then how the number mentioned is impossible even if 100% were killed while actually Pakistan reported around 1,00,000 muslim refugees from Jammu itself in it's submission . Thanks I hope objectivity prevails and Anti Hindu Anti sikh bias is removed. 117.98.112.155 (talk) 08:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 11:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Such a gap or uneven estimate about that incident under demographics means it's likely inaccurate, besides no sources. It's to feed radical and an issue in J&K, but historically it has been natives or monks against invading in caves, J&K was it's primary route to the nation and share a lot of history with the Taliban, it even has a mountain range named "Hindu Kush". 129.176.151.11 (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Demographics

I don't know why such an anti Hindu bias Wikipedia has. The article is about the City of Jammu ( Not Province of Jammu) so why out of sheer anti Hindu bias rather hatred I should say are following FACTS ignored ( according to Jammu and Kashmir Census 1941). - Jammu City was 30% Muslim Before Partition. - Jammu City's population was around 50k before Partition and Muslims were only 15k. - Why number of Jammu Province are mentioned on only one side but deliberately ignored regarding 80000+ Hindus and Sikhs massacred in Mirpur bhimber kotli Rajouri poonch which are all parts of Jammu Province as Before Partition. 117.98.100.114 (talk) 04:26, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

Will Wikipedia be neutral someday and mention about Hindu majority Demographics of Mirpur City ( part of Jammu Province) Before Partition?? Or regarding other cities like about Sialkot City? Is there anything mentioned about demographics of cities like Sialkot which were close to Jammu geographically. Or is it only biased against Hindus and city of Jammu?? 117.98.100.114 (talk) 04:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

Is Census of the state not reliable enough? The Census of 1941 clearly mentions the City of Jammu as 70% Hindu majority. And it's total population being 50k. So why this fact is ignored? Why in that section there's no mention of city population of 50k Before Partition?? Will Wikipedia show neutrality and add the same numbers in Wikipedia articles regarding cities of Sialkot Lahore Amritsar Rawalpindi etc?? Or is this bias specifically reserved against Hindus and Jammu just because of conflict related to jammu and kashmir?? And vested interests need to do Propaganda 117.98.100.114 (talk) 04:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

IoJ&K

The city of Jammu is also claimed by Pakistan as a part of Azad Jammu and Kashmir so you just can't name it an *Indian city* No city in Pakistan administered Kashmir has been named as a *Pakistani city* so please change it AyiMVengeance (talk) 17:07, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 November 2022

Add notable personalities 1 Romalo Ram Dogri Artist 2 Sars Bharti 122.161.243.128 (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done as neither Romalo Ram Dogri nor Sars Bharti have their own articles, so are ineligible for inclusion - Arjayay (talk) 14:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 November 2023

This statement is factually incorrect -> "Jammu (/ˈdʒʌmuː/) is a city in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir in the disputed Kashmir region." The Indian constitution clearly defines Jammu as part of the Republic of India and the same should be correctly reflected on the website. 103.199.243.25 (talk) 11:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

1946 Rawalpindi Massacre

Most of the time periods mentioned was during the 1947 partition. Many of the residents of Jammu are refugees from Pakistan and escaped cleansing (Pakistan stands for "paak" or pure only), especially the 1946 Rawalpindi massacre that preceded the partition and after gaining territory, the refugees in villages like Rajouri for example was completely wiped out that later suffered from infiltrating "Pakistani tribesmen" as well. However the demographic section only mentions Muslims and labels the rest extreme. 129.176.151.11 (talk) 08:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 February 2024

Add the New Delhi-Katra Vande Bharat route in the Transport sub-heading, as it is the fastest way to travel from the megacity of Delhi to Jammu. HeyooooAnBa (talk) 13:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 16:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2024

106.215.129.95 (talk)

Mention about dogras

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Encoded  Talk 💬 22:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2024 (2)

106.215.129.95 (talk) 18:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

demonym dogre, duggar wasi Main language : Dogri Majority : Dogras

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Encoded  Talk 💬 22:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)