Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 21

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Resources and Links

I received a notification that I had been reported by "Duffer" for my attempting to correct an error in the Wikipedia article on Jehovah's Witnesses. It is my understanding that links within the External Links section should deal with the subject of Jehovah's Witnesses and or the Watchtower and its theology. Recently, a link kept appearing that is not about Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower, but is simply someone's personal site to attack a person they formerly associated with. This is expressly clear even from the site's own description (see e-watchman-exposed link). Is this not an inappropriate and off-topic link to have in that section? I'm not really sure that the link's description could be worded differently to make it more on-topic for the article, since the site itself focuses only on attacking a couple individuals in some sort of "campaign" against "apostates" and has nothing to do with serving as a resource on the subject of Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower organization. (Maybe it would be more on-topic in a wiki article on "e-watchman.") In any event, please advise.

I'd also like to note that the other link submitted by the same site, concerning the Society's teaching on 607 DOES seem on-topic and thus an appropriate resource related to the article on Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower's theology. I did not and am not inclined to make any changes to that particular link, in keeping with Wikipedia's guidelines. Timothy Kline 22:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality Question

There's a few areas that appall me. In some places there's generally a stating of fact that Jehovah's Witnesses believe something but doesn't give any logic/reasoning to it. It just says what it is and that the religion believes it's right. Then there's a few statements that give logic/reasoning against that belief. That isn't neutral, that's a negative tone.

I also taste a subtle undertone throughout, that makes it seem like the Governing Body shouldn't be trusted and is overriding scriptural truth and Jehovah's Witnesses are being mislead by them. If I didn't already know what my religion believes and why, I'd think Jehovah's Witnesses were all crackheads in a cult after reading this.

Some areas seem to delve into small points as if they're large parts of being a JW. One example of that, is the eschatology section. It could be trimmed. The excess does have a tone of "see how wrong the Witnesses have been and how they make excuses for it", rather than "see what the Witnesses have gone through and how they dealt with it", which should be the case in a neutral POV article. I kept finding myself thinking "Would an encyclopedia in the local library have such a tone?" as I'm reading.

Sometimes both sides of the argument are displayed well, but that's still not a good idea. Being unbiased isn't about giving both sides of an argument, it's about saying something is a table. If we write "some say it's a table for this reason and that reason, and others say it's desk for this reason and that reason", that's not unbiased, that's a debate. Debate's use counter arguments and therefore gives both biases. That doesn't often translate to anyone having neutrality on a subject.

There's just a general subtle but clear anti-Jehovah's Witness tone throughout this article, that "distracts from the facts". I can't cite everything because it's too ingrained and I'd end up quoting much of the page.

I realize we have JW's and anti-JW's here trying to work together on this and that you've all done a great job in getting this far. I'm new to this article, but I just want to make sure you know I do appreciate all the difficulties you've gone through in this already.

--Ando por Fe 15:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Resource Links

A question concerning Resources and links: It is my understanding that links within the External Links section should deal with the subject of Jehovah's Witnesses and or the Watchtower and its theology. Recently, a link has appeared that is not about Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower, but is simply someone's personal site to attack a person they formerly associated with. This is clear directly from the site's own description (see e-watchman-exposed link) . Is this an appropriate and on-topic link to have in that section? Please advise. Timothy Kline 21:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

A simple question: As J-Witnesses, why do you violiate the third commandment and use the Lord's name in vain? The "J" word is perhaps the most sacred word for G-D known to man, and as such should not be uttered.Loomis51 06:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Why have the Positive and Critical Links section in this article. Wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV, so why have links directing a reader to a website with a 'point of view'? Seems contradictory to me. Jamie 17:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Jamie, you make an interesting point; however, the nature of this forum dictates that articles about anything present the Wikipedia bard of a neutral point of view. (See WP:NPOV.) What this essentially means is that the final product will actually be no one's point of view, but represent as many sides, elements, and even controversies as are significant and relevant. This doesn't mean that every view is presented, nor equally, but in porportion to its overall significance. The idea of having global real-time edit and discussion about articles offers the goal of representing as close to a global impersonal view as possible. Part of this is mentioning significant resources which discuss issues relating to the main topic, even if they conclude with a point of view. By including major points of view, a rough outline of the topic can be seen from the Wikipedia neutral point of view.

As this set of articles is part of a serious ongoing academic endeavor, it is essential that opposing perceptions be presented, even if it makes us uncomfortable with respect to our own point of view.

Hope this helps! - CobaltBlueTony 17:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

What Cobaltbluetony said, basically. It's not that we're not supposed to not present any points of view, it's that we're supposed to present all documented, non-trivial ones. The policy might be better called "Balanced Point of View", since, as you implied, there's nothing neutral about a bunch of non-neutral points of view, it's just a bunch of different non-neutral points of view.Tommstein 07:59, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I understand, its just you would necessarily see that in any other encyclopedia. How come the links aren't balanced in number? Are there positive links pending approval or something? Jamie 08:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the NPOV policy makes things look funny, but it's probably the best we can do in an encyclopedia that is supposed to be edited by anyone. If we had to present one view and that's it, I am currently actively laughing at what would occur in this article, to say nothing about what would go down throughout Wikipedia. As to the links, there's no special reason they're one way or the other, it's just kind of how it evolved, and everyone seems happy with it, save a sockpuppet and sockpuppeteer who were recently raising high hell about it and adding apparently every link they could find on Yahoo. The disparity looks greater than it is because some negative links have longer descriptions than positive links (on my screen, there's one multiline positive description and five critical ones, including two that take three lines). If you have any good, useful, topical, nonrepetitive links, feel free to add them.Tommstein 09:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The External Links section is getting ridiculously long. Both the Favourable and Critical lists should be reduced to those which of the highest quality. Also, some of the links would be better referenced only in the Doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses and Practices of Jehovah's Witnesses and other related articles as relevant.--Jeffro77 05:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It appears that 130.159.254.2 has changed their modus operandi from deleting all of the critical links at once, to deleting a few at a time. Either 130.159.254.2 should explain their reasons (and have good ones), or the entries they have removed should be reinstated.--Jeffro77 02:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I just wish those who quote or site information, text, and scriptures used by Jehovah's Witnesses would use most recent information. Since Russell came on the world seen and orginized the modern day Bible Students, he said " the light gets brighter and brighter as the day draws near "-Prov 4:18. What this means is that at this time Jehovah's Witnesses believe what is taught is the truth and until more light is shed on the matter then they faithfully abide by these teachings. Would you point to the fact that they celebrated Christmas or birthbays a hundred years ago? Of course you would not because they have GROWN in knowledge and wisdom (godly). So if you are quoting book and magazine then use the most up to date, we HAVE been wrong and we WILL be wrong on other issues (the past history of this orginazation proves this), but one thing is true what is taught now is TRUTH. Thank you... 141.153.41.124 06:57, 14 January 2006

141.153.41.124 said: "But one thing is true what is taught now is TRUTH." Unfortunately, they were stating those exact same words back in the 1880s, 1890s, 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s etc. Today's "Truth©" is tomorrow's false teachings, apostasy and old light. Please have a look through the Talk archives, there are 20 pages covering a lot of what you are referring to. Regards. Central 11:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Russell wrote the Bible, or at least Proverbs? When I read "we HAVE been wrong and we WILL be wrong on other issues (the past history of this orginazation proves this), but one thing is true what is taught now is TRUTH," I think a little part of me died, or at least got a blood clot. That is absolutely the mindset of Witnesses though, somehow.Tommstein 02:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

In the 1988 book "Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand" published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society on page 9 the following is included:

"Interpreting Scriptures - The mysteries locked up in the book of Revelation have for long baffled sincere students of the Bible. In God's due time, those secrets had to be unlocked, but how, when and to whom? Only God's spirit could make known the meaning as the appointed time drew near. (Rev 1:3) Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God's zealous slaves strengthened to make known his judgments. (Compare Matt 13:10,11) It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: "Do not interpretations belong to God?" (Gen 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophesy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times."

The writer(s) clearly state that this book (and concivably the others) represent The Society's Bible understanding to-date but are not so presumtuous as to claim infallability. Consequently it would be unreasonable to present information in the article that did not reflect the source context. 199.64.0.252 16:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Date format

For all date formats, please refere to date formatting. - CobaltBlueTony 21:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That's pretty handy. Thanks. Although I can probably personally count all the dates I've ever added on one hand and have a bunch of fingers left over.Tommstein 08:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

My changes

Misc. Minor changes

• Line 34 I changed "brotherhood" to "society". Obviously our congregation consists of both male and female members.

The (main) problem is, the word "society" kind of has its own life when it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses, not to mention that I've rarely if ever heard it used in this context, while "brotherhood" is a term used by the Witnesses themselves (I'm pretty sure). You can change it to something else that is gender-neutral, but pick a better word than "society."Tommstein 08:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

According to the Oxford Pocket American Thesaurus of Current English (2002), "society" is the gender neutral synonym for "brotherhood". Yes, "brotherhood" is used within the congregation (along with 'fellowship' and 'society') to describe us. However, we know what it is connoting: a worldwide society of male and females. To be unequivocally clear in this public article: 'society' is the better choice. Duffer 00:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, you don't appear to have read my argument.Tommstein 09:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You did not present an argument. You presented your opinion. Duffer 12:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

That the word "society" has a special connotation in the context of Jehovah's Witnesses is a fact, not an opinion.Tommstein 17:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

That is nonsense. We are a society of men and women. It goes against the basics of logic and common sense to attempt the refutation of a thesaurus with nothing more than your personal opinion. Duffer 09:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer, you would be prudent to check out this quote from the Watch Tower Society's Insight book, volume 1, p.200: "The united body of true Christians, though composed of small groups, congregations, or physically isolated individuals, constitutes an "association of brothers," or a brotherhood, designated by the Greek expression adelphotes. (1Pe 2:17; 5:9) To remain a part of that brotherhood, true Christians avoid all association. . ."

"Being a part of the worldwide Christian brotherhood will help you to stay close to Jehovah. And as we shall see, you can find true security among God's people."—Knowledge book, 1995, p.159

"The Governing Body does what is possible to provide assistance and to inform the international brotherhood". . . "Conventions—Proof of Our Brotherhood."—Proclaimers book, 1993, pp.117, 113

"Brothers and sisters in the disaster areas expressed again and again their deep appreciation for the love shown by the worldwide brotherhood."—Yearbook, 2000, p.12

"We will hold fast to our Scriptural position as a worldwide Christian brotherhood"—Watchtower magazine, 15 May 1999, p.19

You should also look up the word "brotherhood" on the Watch Tower's CD ROM, and you will see that phrase used over and over in regard to Jehovah's Witnesses. Central 12:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

What Central said, to save arguing time.Tommstein 18:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

As I've said before, I am well aware of our of the term "Brotherhood" within the congregation. However, readers of this Wiki may not be aware of how we use the term amongst ourselves. "Brotherhood" is synonymous with "society", however, it is an ambiguous term which leaves room for interpretation regarding the gender of adherents. One person may read it as "society", one may take it to literally mean "brotherhood" or "fraternity". This is an encyclopedia. "Society" is the most accurate, that leaves no questions about the gender of the "societies" adherents. Duffer 01:37, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

""societies" adherents"?? Societies' adherents? Society's adherents? Anyway, the problem with using the word "society" when discussing the Witness 'brotherhood' is that it may readily be confused with "The [Watchtower] Society". The word 'brotherhood' is generally used to either refer to a collective, or to imply emotive ties. If 'brotherhood' is going to be construed as an evil sexist term, then avoid its use, but don't use the contextually vague "society" either. Whether Watchtower publications use the word "brotherhood" is irrelevant in determining the suitability for its use here. (Of course, it should stay as is if part of a quote.) If you intend to refer to a concept of camaraderie among Witnesses, reword the sentence, for example "Witnesses feel a close bond". If you intend to refer to the collective of all Witnesses, just say something like "the Witnesses".--Jeffro77 09:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't realize that people may take it to mean the WBTS itself. That's a good point, however, brotherhood can be just as misleading as it's not necessarily gender nuetral. "Adherents" or even just "other Witnesses" is fine. Duffer 09:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

If you didn't realize that, it's because you're an illiterate dumbass, because I basically told you that on two separate occasions, not three inches up the screen. Actually, you called the concept "nonsense," so remove the illiterate and leave the dumbass. It's like you just want to fight and cause disruptions on Wikipedia for the hell of it.Tommstein 20:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses#Readability for non-JWs Duffer 03:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer, the word 'brotherhood' is a perfectly normal word, and not a unique Watch Tower word or phrase like "the Jonadab class", the "faithful and discreet slave", "the remnant", "the slave class", "the ministry", or "the society" etc. The publications use the term 'brotherhood' just like everyone else does, especially when it's used in a religious sense, and to have the same term that they use in the article is perfectly acceptable. Central 17:26, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

This does not address the fact that "brotherhood" is not necessarily gender-neutral. Why are you making such a big deal of this? What's wrong with having a more specific, gender neutral, adjective? Duffer 21:15, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• • In the same paragraph I changed "weak" to "unsteady". "Unsteady" is a far less provocative adjective.

"Weak" is a term used by the Witnesses themselves, probably the main one used in describing "weak" members. If it is a provocative term, then that just means the Witnesses are guilty of provoking their "weak" members.Tommstein 08:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

An examination of our publications will show that the term "weak" was only used 3 times in regards to brothers/sisters, and that was in 1966, the term is no longer used due to it's provocative and derogatory connotation. Duffer 23:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer, a very quick check of WT publications reveals that the term "spiritually weak" was used at least as recently as 2003; from 1950 to 2003, the expression has been used 55 times in The Watchtower alone, mostly in 2003, and most uses of the phrases refer to Witnesses in the JW catchphrase sense of the term. It is unclear why you said the term hasn't been used since 1966.--Jeffro77 08:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You are right. I searched "weak brothers/members". It's use is unfortunate. I have never experienced it's use in my local congregations.. Duffer 12:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You lend great credibility to yourself with such marvelous research skills. As a bonus, we now have you stating that calling someone "weak" is provocative and derogatory; ergo, that the Watch Tower Society actively provokes and is derogatory towards its "weak" members. I fully expect you to try to spin out of your own words now, of course. I wonder what the Society would think about you hurling such accusations at them....Tommstein 17:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

In many instances being labeled "weak" is provocative and derogatory. I'm not accusing the WTS of anything, do you not understand connotation and context? Duffer 09:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, so when they do it, it's OK, while if anyone else does it, it's provocative and derogatory? You lend great authority to your opinions with such incredibly subtle double standards.Tommstein 18:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It's called "theocratic warfare," what everyone else calls a "lie." Wow, the guy that took up Retcon/Missionary's banner as soon as they left is similarly, how shall we say, truth-challenged. I'll comment no further.Tommstein 09:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Humility Tomm, know when you're wrong. Duffer 12:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm wrong because you lied? Come again? Shouldn't I be the one telling you to know when you're wrong and truth-challenged?Tommstein 17:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I was wrong, not deceitful. Duffer 09:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Or so you claim. Too bad your total accrued amount of trustworthiness is in the negatives, in line with your "theocratic warfare."Tommstein 18:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The accuracy of this article is my concern, not how trustworthy you think me to be. Duffer 03:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Causing problems for the hell of it seems to be your concern.Tommstein 20:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Same paragraph I changed ..standard of "irreprehensibility" as overseers than are other .. to: ..standard as overseers than other baptized... "irreprehensibility" is not a word. Duffer 03:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The (non)-word "irreprehensibility" is specifically used by the Society. (See Watchtower Indexes 1986-2003 and 1930-1985.) It is therefore appropriate to state that Witnesses hold elders to such a standard.--Jeffro77 09:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Used twice total as an index search for articles that use the real word "irreprehensible" in regards to elders. Duffer 09:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Disputed Changes

• I removed: The Greek Scriptures (Matthew to Revelation) are written primarily for the 144,000 "anointed" brothers of Christ.. This line is nothing more than a rouse to incite prejudice. The entirety of the source this "quote" came from (United In Worship ch. 14, pg. 111):

Special attention was being given to making up the government that would rule mankind for 1,000 years, and nearly all the inspired letters in the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily directed to this group of Kingdom heirs—“the holy ones,” “partakers of the heavenly calling.” Along with the footnote: See the opening verses of Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter; also Galatians 3:26-29, 1 Thessalonians 2:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:14, 2 Timothy 4:8, Hebrews 3:1, James 1:18, 1 John 3:1, 2 and Jude 1.

Yes, a large majority of the New Testament directly addresses the "holy ones" (the 144,000), especially where it speaks about organizational responsibility, and worldwide ministry, however, this does NOT mean that it was primarily written FOR them, as the bulletin infers. The bible is written FOR EVERYONE who will listen. The footnote clearly indicates nothing more than the fact the letters were indeed addressed to the "holy ones" among others. You are reading into the quote something that it does not say, and portraying the quote in a manner that infers something that it does not actually infer. Such a misleading quote greatly overshadows EVERY Jehovah's Witnesses convictions summed up in 2 Tim. 3:16: 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. It's misleading and only partially true.

Do you not see that the quote is talking about those whom the letters were directly addressed to? It does not mean (and more importantly) it does NOT say that it was written FOR them (well.. written them only). Duffer 03:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Matthew (Duffer), You start: "This line is nothing more than a rouse to incite prejudice. The entirety of the source this "quote" came from (United In Worship ch. 14, pg. 111)"

Point one: I removed the Matthew to Revelation bit before you even posted the above here in talk, so why are you bringing it up? Point two: I was the one to add the direct quote from the United book, so why are you acting like you found it? Point three, even after the quote was put in you still removed it again for no reason!

You go on: "a large majority of the New Testament directly addresses the "holy ones" (the 144,000) . . . this does NOT mean that it was primarily written FOR them, as the bulletin infers."

Are you serious? What is the difference of "primarily directed" and "primarily written"? They are interchangeable. If someone sends you a letter and it's "primarily directed" to you, what does that mean? It's for your attention primarily! If they say "primarily written" to you, it's just the same. You are arguing semantics, and trying to make an issue where there is none. Deleting the whole Watch Tower Society quote is not a reasonable solution, as you seem to think. As for "2 Tim. 3:16" that is a straw man, as that scripture is only validating the trustworthiness of the Bible, is says nothing at all about who the Greek scriptures are primarily directed/written for. Please stick to the subject. Central 18:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The letters of the NT were written to, and sent to the "holy ones" AND the "elders" of the congregations. That's who the couriers physically gave the letters to. The elders etc then disseminated the contents of the letters amongst the congregation. The contents of which is/was for THE WHOLE CONGREGATION. That point is entirely lost by the way the quote is presented (without surrounding, and footnote, context). 2 Tim 3:16 is not a strawman, it is a legitimate example of the prejudicial nature of the way the quote is presented. Personal conviction of every active Jehovah's Witness is a stark contrast to the misleading connotation of the quote. Duffer 00:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer, according to JW teaching, in the first century, "THE WHOLE CONGREGATION" were the "anointed class", which does not help to determine whether the 'NT' was intended to apply to anyone else.--Jeffro77 08:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem you have is that the quote from the United book says "are primarily directed," not "were primarily directed." Not to mention that the sentence is clearly talking about all of the anointed, not the specific people that got first-run copies of the letters back in the day.Tommstein 09:17, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Dtbrown's addition is an amicable solution Duffer 02:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this addition something that only you can see?Tommstein 09:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jehovah%27s_Witnesses&diff=32198722&oldid=32183380 Duffer 12:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, that. That was so old that it was either far down the history page or gone. But yes, I agree, the solution is agreeable, and has already been there for a couple days now.Tommstein 17:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• I removed: Humans who do not actively side with Jehovah by becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses will be killed at Armageddon without consideration for age. (based on Ezekiel 9; Insight On the Scriptures 1988, Vol. 1 p. 849). This is a complete falsehood. User Central pointed me to archive page 16 where poor Uberpenguin was brow-beat into exasperation. Don't you think you may be wrong when EVERY member of an organization that you come across is telling outright that what you believe is our doctrine, is in fact, not?! Does that not set off ANY alarms? I'm telling you flat out, the fate of unbelievers at Armageddon IS uncertain. That is official JW doctrine. Uberpenguin has told you that, CBT has told you that, the brothers from the Touchstone website (http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=read_count&om=4&forum=DCForumID4) have told you that. I am telling you that. Perhaps if you want to alleviate your confusion on this matter you can contact the WTS (http://www.watchtower.org/how_to_contact_us.htm) directly.

w95 10/15 28 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats?

23 Many are exposed to our message as we preach from house to house or informally. Others may learn of Jehovah's Witnesses and what we represent in ways unknown to us. When judgment time arrives, to what extent will Jesus consider community responsibility and family merit? We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate.

w98 8/15 20 Strengthening Our Confidence in God's Righteousness

18. With complete confidence in Jehovah's righteousness, we need not worry about finding answers to questions like: 'How will babies and small children be judged? Might it be that a large number of people will not yet have been reached with the good news when Armageddon arrives? What about the mentally ill? What about...?' Granted, at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues. He will do so, however, in a righteous and merciful way. We should never doubt that. In fact, we may be amazed and delighted to observe him resolve them in a way that we never even considered."

How can the statements: ..We cannost say, and it is pointless to speculate. and ..at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues. be ANY more unequivocal?!

This is a quote, from the user Uberpenguin found burried in the discussion on archive page 16, that makes the crucial distinction that you (Central) fail to make: ..in speaking of JWs belief of Armageddon events, it is much more accurate and correct to talk about the class of people who JWs believe WILL be destroyed (the wicked) than those whose fate is uncertain (unbelievers). Why should we continue this debate simply because you won't take the time to contact the WTS directly (or even listen to ANY Jehovah's Witness you may have spoken to about this issue). Duffer 03:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This is one of the topics they like to vacillate over depending on the mood at the time. In the 'you're not doing enough' Watchtower articles, it is often emphasized that even baptized Witnesses who are over-confident may not get through (often quoting Zephaniah 2:3) which leaves little hope for the poor 'worldlings'. In the more touchy-feely 'join our religion' articles, it is left a bit more open. The general attitude overall is that the men, women and children who do not become Witnesses will likely be mercilessly slaughtered like dogs in the street, though they like to water the language down a bit there too.--Jeffro77 09:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Those are admonishments explicitely directed towards active Jehovah's Witnesses. Your statement: "..which leave little hope for the poor 'worldlings'" infers that JWs must therefore naturally assume: "well shoot, I may not even live, what possible hope do these people have?" Besides this is merely your point of view, it is the exact opposite of reality. Every active JW is well aware of the basic biblical precident: "the more you know, the more liable you are." This is not dependant on my current mood. My internet just got turned back on, and I have every intention of facilitating an ACCURATE portrayal of every Jehovah's Witness belief and doctrine that arises on this website. Since this bulletin has not ever been, nor is, a teaching (belief or doctrine) of Jehovah's Witnesses it has absolutely no business masquerading as an official policy in an ENCYCLOPEDIA. Duffer 00:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Here is an example of the language that Duffer thinks is so ambiguous. I love this next picture, you can see how Evil these people are, just look, one woman has a bad hair do, and she didn't want to buy the magazines! She certainly deserves to get what's coming, and look, booboo the cat, he's evil for peeing on those Watchtower mags, bad kitty! Central 18:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Again you fail to make the distinction that now both Uberpenguin and myself have presented to you. Read the article again, it is in no way "ambiguous." "Christ's angels will smite all OPPOSERS of God's kingdom..". The second picture directly quotes Psalms, Luke, and 1 Cor. ALL of which specifically state "wicked, unrighteous, idolaters, etc.." The bible, however, does not mention AT ALL righteous people who are not affiliated with God's organization. Their fate is not mentioned once in the entirety of the bible. The quotes I presented above specifically state this fact, where-as the qoutes in archive page 16 are SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED TOWARDS the wicked, opposers, fornicators, drunkards etc.. This is not dependant on "which article you may be reading at the time", it seems to be dependant on WHO is reading said article. A Jehovah's Witness knows exactly who is being addressed, an opposer reads the same article, assumes the worst, and remains entirely ignorant of the truth. The problem arrises when such a person continues to believe his/her misguided assumption despite the witness of EVERY Jehovah's Witness he/she has come across. As for the pictures themselves, wicked people come in all shapes and sizes. Have a look at http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/index.html . Duffer 00:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You might want to review the archive a little more carefully. His story was the same as yours, he was shown tons of references proving otherwise, and he never bothered responding to any of them, let alone all of them. You are correct, the Bible may not teach what Watch Tower Society publications say, but that doesn't stop them from teaching them. The 'you're an ignorant non-Jehovah's Witness' defense ain't gonna fly here, or even make life easier for you. At this point, given the archived discussion that was never thoroughly rebutted, the best you can hope for is a statement that their story varies depending on which of their 'spirit-directed' publications you are reading.Tommstein 09:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Matthew you said: "Christ's angels will smite all OPPOSERS of God's kingdom.." yes, and guess who all the opposers are? Anyone who is not a Jehovah's Witness. As you are aware, there is no fence sitting with the organization, those who do not respond to the JW message are classed in the same ranks as opposers and all others who are to die, and you know this. As for your next comment: "despite the witness of EVERY Jehovah's Witness he/she has come across" what on earth are you on? I know many JWs and they are all open enough with me to acknowledge that non-JWs are taught by the organization to be wiped out/destroyed/annihilated according to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses via the Watch Tower Society's literature. The only ones I have ever met who try and side track this reality are ones that don't know me and who have knocked on my door. The usual public face is not the same as the private face. I'm not saying that they all agree with the Watch Tower's teachings, many are embarrassed and uncomfortable with its intense judgementalism and would never admit such realities on the doors, but they have the guts to admit in private that this is the Governing Body's official line, like it or not. And they are supposed to be "God's channel" to you and mankind, so their words are the be all and end all, not your own more subjective liberal views. PS. Matthew, how long did it take you to interview 6.5 million JWs? You must be a lot older than the 23 you state on your name page! Here one quote for you form that same article:

"Their flesh shall rot wile they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. (Zechariah 14;12, RS) Eaten up will be the tongues of those who scoffed and laughed at the warning of Armageddon! (Those who rejected the Govering Body's false prophecies) Eaten up will be the eyes of those who refused to see the sign of the time of the end! (Again, those who dared to disbelieve the false prophecies of the Governing Body) Eaten up will be the flesh of those who would not learn that the living and true God is named Jehovah!" (Those who rejected/ignored JWs and their dogma)-Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained (book) 1958 pp.208-209 Central 23:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

For one, no one cares what Witnesses are saying on a public website about their beliefs. And I most certainly don't care what anyone at that Touchstone website thinks, seeing as it appears to be run by someone trying to overcompensate for a small penis by running it much like the Nazi propaganda ministry was run. Now, with regard to the things that the Watch Tower Society has actually printed, which is all that matters, you brought up some excellent quotes. The only thing is, they also could not have been more unequivocal in saying the opposite in the Knowledge book, the Reasoning book, the Insight books, etc., all major books that they use all the time. A couple quotes from random Watchtower articles can't really completely bury the statements in such major, still-used books. Thus, since it can't in fact be established just what the heck they're teaching, since they've made unequivocal statements both ways (you know, their old 'play every side of the fence and then point you to the appropriate quote when needed' game), I'm going to reinsert the paragraph, but with a disclaimer that it depends on which publication you go by.Tommstein 08:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sean Hannity would be proud of you. http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl is a discussion board. The "Setting Matters Straight" section of the website is a direct response to the most common accusations we come across. Your honesty about not carring what we say in public is admirable, but misguided. They have not said "the opposite" in ANY of our publications. Read them again. EVERY one of them is specifically addressing "the wicked, opposers, idolators, fornicators, apostates, etc..." NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM SAYS: "righteous non-believers, and/or children, will be destroyed at Armageddon." Do you know why not a single one of the quotes say that? Because the bible doesn't say that. The two quotes I provided and several more in the article I originally linked to highlight this point unequivocally. I must wait until 24 hours has passed since my last edit of this line to avoid being banned for a 3RR violation, when that time is up, rest assured I will delete it. Duffer 01:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Most of that has already been addressed. Not caring what you say in public is wise given your lying policies, as reinforced by Retcon/Missionary. The rest is a personal attack by someone with no point.Tommstein 09:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Matthew (Duffer), You do really need to learn to stop projecting your own personal views and mixing them up with the Official doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses that are supposed to come from the "channel of God" (the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses) not Mr Matthew McGhee (you). I have met some JWs with personal ideas that are verging on psychotic, but I don't post them here as they are not representative of the official doctrines, and you need to stop projecting your own views here as they are not remotely relevant. As Jeffro77 pointed out above, what JWs are taught to say in public is not the same as what they teach in private. As the saying goes, honey catches more flies than vinegar. You also seem to have a cognitive dissonance when you read negative material from your leaders at Watch Tower house. You have quoted a few fluff comments in regard to those "people will not yet have been reached with the good news". You carefully forget to mention that "Good news" in Watch Tower speak = unique Watch Tower doctrines.

You have also paid no attention to the veritable mountain of quotes on archive 16, section 7 and 7.1. Why? One or two fluff quotes do not extinguish the fire from the mountain of negative and dogmatic quotes, you are not being honest to yourself or readers; again I believe we are seeing the Watch Tower's PR machine in action with more "Theocratic Warfare" moves, to hide the real truth. I laughed out when I read your comment here: "Why should we continue this debate simply because you won't take the time to contact the WTS directly." LOL, who is "we" exactly? And as for "continue", what are you talking about. The debate was done, dusted and dead ages ago, you chose to make no comment back then, and now you are the one reviving all this, not me! Why should I need to contact them when I have their words on paper and CD ROM? Uberpenguin was the one with uncertainties, not me, not Tom, not Evident, not any one else who chose to get involved in that very long debate. You really need to stick to written doctrines, not your own personal interpretations and hopes. Regarding very rare comments like "We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate." These comments of theirs are without substance as they do say and they do speculate. They made the same claims about setting dates, and we all know their history of that! Central 18:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Getting mad at people who stubbornly parody official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on a PUBLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA is not cognitive dissonance. Besides, ignoring the testimony of every Jehovah's Witness on this website, on the Touchstone website, and direct quotes that actually specifically adress the issue is 'denial'. Your confusion can be quickly alleviated by contacting any Jehovah's Witness, CBT and I have both provided you with the address to contact the WTS 'HQ' yourself. "The veritable mountain of quotes" that don't say what what you want them to, those? If you had an ounce of interest in finding the truth of the matter you would drop the bullshit, re-read the quotes, man-up, and face your mistake. Your caricature of both our beliefs on Armageddon survival and Theocratic Warfare are proven wrong by the quotes you've provided. Armageddon survival has already been addressed, and your lie about our theocratic doctrine is proved wrong by all of the quotes from quotes.ca, but most specifically: We dare not lie against God's Word, adding to it or taking away from it, reading into it what it does not say and denying, passing over or explaining away what it does truthfully say. Don't hide behind your ignorance and prejudice of our beliefs to justify denial of truth and accuracy. Duffer 01:36, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Central, it may be wise to not waste much valuable time on him until he takes some remedial reading comprehension courses and takes care of that problem.Tommstein 09:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I think he is still at the boiling point stage and unable to see clearly due to too much emotion. Tom you have to treat them like a slow cooking stew, just let them simmer away, and the truth will eventually penetrate and they will soften up and be more palatable. The seeds of reality are there, but he is still trying to stop them growing, but they will come though, and he will get more and more reality attacks, and see how silly he was to defend all this stuff he's doing now, and the rest is history. . . Central 22:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

That, or he'll just turn into an ever-bigger fruitcake. You know what the average Witness is like as well as I do.Tommstein 19:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

yeah. despite the fact that i will probably be ignored, i thought i'd contribute a little. duffer is right: no one can say who is going to make it through armageddon. we have never claimed to know who will make it. but think about this: the new world is God's kingdom taking effect on earth. Jehovah only wants people who want to live under his rule. that's why he gave us instruction in the bible. we need to display our desire to be ruled by him. wouldn't that mean that we would seek out a society that is doing its best in that regard?

so no, i dont think it matters if you are baptised or a part of the society or not. it depends completely on the condition of the heart. there will probably be dedicated Jehovah's witnesses who will not make it, and there may be people who have not become Jehovah's witnesses that will. the main question is 'would you want to submit to Jehovah's authority, and are you doing so right now, long before armageddon happens?

Sorry, that last lovely message was by me. i'm really really new to wikipedia. - Icaughtyouadeliciousbass on 16 January, 2006

ok, i figured it out now. SORRY!!! Icaughtyouadeliciousbass 21:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Welcome ICYADB, to sign your name after a message type four tildas in a row like: ~~~~. When you click the "Save page" button it will automatically show your username along with a time & date stamp. Also, it is not our opinions that are to be represented here, but what is officially taught. Welcome to Wikipedia. Duffer 01:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

hmm. yeah. good point. i wish i had my reference stuff at work. Icaughtyouadeliciousbass 17:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

(2 Peter 2:5-6): "and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; 6 and by reducing the cities Sod´om and Go·mor´rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;"

(Jude 7): "So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."

(2 Thessalonians 1:6-10): "6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among YOU."

(Ezekiel 9:6): "Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women YOU should kill off-to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near, and from my sanctuary YOU should start." So they started with the old men that were before the house."

Who survived the flood? Only those who got on the ark. Who survived the destruction of Sodom? Only those that obeyed the angels. So, while we don't know exactly who will be destroyed at Armageddon, it is clear that just being not wicked isn't enough. Also, children were among those killed in the flood and in the District of the Jordon. Those events are a pattern for things to come. But it is true that we don't know all the details.

(Romans 10:13): "For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.""

(Psalm 37:34): "Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it]."

So, why wouldn't those who aren't yet Witnesses, but who are making progress towards becoming Witnesses, and also their children, also survive? MCalkins 06:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Arianism again..

• Since it's such a big deal for the opposers on this website to have a link to the Arianism page (from a religion that ISN'T Arian...), I directly linked to the only relevant information on the Arianism page: Arianism#"Arian" as a polemical epithet. This the recommended inter-wiki linking etiquette (Wikipedia:Make_only_links_relevant_to_the_context). Duffer 03:58, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses and Governments... again...

• I removed: ", or even just thoughts rejecting non-biblical organizational doctrines by baptized members,". I replaced it with: "..divergent views, continuously expressed, will consistently..". Besides the fact that "non-biblical organizational doctrines" is someones point of view, it is untrue, such "thoughts" will NOT "consistently result in DFing". Duffer 03:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

It would have been much easier and more sensible to just remove the "consistently" part than the whole thing you did. I will reinsert the part you deleted and remove the "consistently" part.Tommstein 09:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Just removing "consistently" from the sentence still fails to provide accuracy, and NPOV. "non-biblical organization doctrine" is POV. "even just thoughts rejecting.." is innacurate. Duffer 01:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine, I'll remove the "non-biblical" part too. The other part is accurate.Tommstein 09:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

No.. it is far from accurate. Hence the removal of it. "Thoughts rejecting blah blah blah.." is IMPOSSIBLE to police. Are you a mind reader? Ya, and neither are congregational elders. Besides, even if thoughts COULD be policed by the elders, it's still not a DF'able offense. Your statement is nothing more than conjecture and hot-air, it is your unrealistic point of view. Duffer 12:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

We're not tapping this dance again. DannyMuse said basically the exact same things verbatim. Review DannyMuse's RFC in the Practices article. Basically, he was told that he needed to stop jumping through mental hoops to insert bias, by someone that was actually friendly to him.Tommstein 18:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Ya I read it, Danny cut to the heart of the matter fairly concisely:

"...should be dealing with the current Practices of Jehovah's Witnesses, not obscure, unverifiable letters from decades ago that have no current bearing on judicial hearings involving apostasy. However, if the consensus of the WP community is that--since Franz claims to have a copy of this letter in his book--it should be included for reasons that have yet to be clearly articulated, then I would contend that since the accuracy of this assertion by Franz cannot be independently verified and neither this quote or any other statement remotely resembling it in form or content appears in any of the official publications of the WTB&TS."

That letter in Ray Franz's book is a letter to all District and Circuit overseers the world over, which would hardly make it "obscure". You should also note that the Watch Tower Society has never challenged or refuted anything in Raymond Franz's books, especially the proof of letters. If those letters were remotely falsified in Franz's Crisis of Conscience book, or In Search of Christian Freedom they would be on him in a flash with their high profile expensive lawyers demanding it be removed, but there is no refutation at all. You also ignore the fact that the overseers and elders are the ones who deal with excommunication, not the Watchtower mags that are there for the public. Why on earth would a private confidential letter from the world headquarters to all District and Circuit overseers on expulsions matters and thought control be published in a public journal? If you are confused I suggest you get a copy of the book, photocopy the letter, post it to the Watch Tower Society and ask them in no uncertain terms, "did you write this", and "what are your views on apostate thoughts now?" Until you can be bothered to write to them, I suggest you keep out of matters that you know very little about. Central 12:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

How do you respond to that fact Tomm? You didn't then and you still havn't now. Duffer 10:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Presumably the same way I responded throughout that talk page. Read more carefully.Tommstein 19:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither of you addressed: "..neither this quote or any other statement remotely resembling it in form or content appears in any of the official publications of the WTB&TS." If this was WT doctrine, why is it not in ANY of the hundreds of thousands of WT articles? Your conclusion about Jehovah's Witness lawyers is a non sequitur that relies on the presumption that the Witness lawyer would have to have read APOSTATE material in order to even be aware of what Franz has written in order to sue him for libel. Duffer 01:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Presumably, I didn't address it because it's a red herring.Tommstein 20:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• I replaced: "..with accompanying intense restriction of rights.." with the proper terminology: "..intense restriction of congregational privileges..". Duffer 03:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

In a normal part of the article, you would be correct. The problem is, the beginning of that very same sentence makes it clear that was is being said is "the contention" of critics, not necessarily fact. And, of course, the whole criticism centers around rights. Thus, I will reinsert the previous wording that more-accurately reflected the critical viewpoint.Tommstein 09:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The contention of critics is POV and by definition of the rules of this very website, is forbidden. The only reason it is there is you have absolutely no respect for truth or accuracy, and you're stubborn about it. Regardless if it is the POV of the critic, it is inaccurate. The article is "addressing" "Human rights" and "basic freedoms", 'congregational privilages' does not fall in either of those catagories. Duffer 01:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey stupidass, review WP:NPOV, and cease commenting on policies you apparently have no clue about. And if you don't like being called a stupidass, stop insulting people.Tommstein 09:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Tomm, while I appreciate your frustration with Duffer misunderstanding NPOV policy, please don't call people names like that. It's not necessary and only increases the already high tensions around here. Thanks! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 09:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The dude can't post anything without insulting Central and I, usually with something thrown in for all non-Jehovah's Witnesses to boot, and you get on my case?Tommstein 10:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

..Where have I "thrown (something) in for all non-JWs.."? I'm combative and shrewd (contrary to biblical and JW teaching...) to people who have continuously demonstrated zero regard for truth and accuracy (you and sometimes Central). Duffer 12:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You weren't seriously expecting me to piss time away on that, insults just like I just finished saying and all, were you?Tommstein 18:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• I changed: "The organization sees this as a perfectly reasonable private internal matter by the organization and its followers, and states it right to remove members." To: "However, the organization sees this as a non-issue. They view it as: litigation to ensure the legal practice of their religious beliefs and biblical interpretations, including the right to excommunicate members." This change barely begins to scratch the problems with this paragraph. Obviously my edit is from the perspective of the WT (POV), presented as a contrast to the POV of the critic. It doesn't even explain the mutually exclusive nature of the things being compared and contrasted. So what if we litigate on our behalf to ensure that WILLING participants of a religion get to practice the religion THEY FREELY CHOOSE? You're calling disciplinary action (that EVERY JW is well aware of before baptizing): "a major restriction of the basic human rights.." (and hilariously say it's a direct contradiction to scriptural precedent.. LOL!). As I've said from the beginning the whole concept of this paragraph is inept, prejudiced, and highly POV. I think it hould be deleted completely, but that won't happen, but at the very least, indicators such a "major" and "severe" need to be removed completely or toned down considerably. Duffer 03:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, it was a Witness that inserted that. Take it up with him. Or have another powwow in your secret Yahoo group and get your stories straight. Regarding your commentary there, I would comment and compare again regarding how Witnesses are also free to follow the laws and regulations of the country they willingly live in or get out, but why bother, the 86th time won't be the charm.Tommstein 09:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Matthew, you have failed to address the main points about JWs being excommunicated for merely thinking non-conforming thoughts, as the 1980 letter to all Distinct and Circuit overseers states. They do not have to teach their thoughts. There is no biblical precedent for abusing such ones, or expelling them, slandering them, shunning them, inciting hate against them, and encouraging family break ups, all of which are severe. You have also ignored the fact that many have been expelled for doctrines that have no biblical basis like 1914. Show me scholars that say that's when Jesus was enthroned? The same goes for many others like "the Watch Tower organization, two classes of Christian, 144,000, and who is anointed" etc. Prominent members were excommunicated in 1980 for just discussing those points in private. You also ignore the lack of public trial that the Bible clearly sets out, this again is seen as "persecution" if done to the organization. All these matters you are surreptitiously ignoring as you focus on a straw man like "well we demand the right to disfellowship that serial killer and the evil opposers says we are unreasonable for doing that", or along that line. Please look at the real points, not some made up false straw man argument so you can refute that instead. Central 18:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

JWs are not routinely DFed for "thinking non-conforming thoughts". As has been explained more than once (but perhaps obsured in off-topic bantering), it takes more than merely thinking -- and this is a logic problem, not a procedural one. No one can read minds, therefore, it is impossible for any elder to respond to the thoughts inside someone's head. Moreover, expressing a doubt, and even persisting in this doubt, does not automatically incur punitive action. It is the action of verbally expressing a willful departure from doctrines established within the organization, especially core beliefs, that elicits a disciplinary response, and even then this action is not always disfellowshipping. The fact that it is difficult to document this hinges on the simple fact that it just doesn't happen that often. The desired goals of unity and continuity (1 Cor. 1:10, NWT) certainly cannot be maintained if widely divergent views are held, especially on core or critical issues.

It is an NPOV error to write into the article interpretations as fact. Words such as "major" and "severe" reflect an interpretation of the facts, not a simple presentation of them. And just because you have excepts from publications that are not widely available to even verify, it doesn't mean that you have the context of the excerpts faithfully preserved. The fact that members of the organization are telling you that this practice simply isn't widespread and not well-represented by your presentation of it, and you insist on shoving your excerpts into the articles, suggests that you do not yet fully understand or accept the concept of NPOV. Until you yourself remain focused on the facts and presenting them in NPOV, your edits will continue to generate negative feedback, and may be consistently reverted if they violate NPOV. - CobaltBlueTony 19:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

We're not tapping this dance again. Review DannyMuse's RFC in the Practices article. Basically, he was told that he needed to stop jumping through mental hoops to insert bias.Tommstein 09:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Tony, you said: "JWs are not routinely Dfed. . ." I think you will find that phrasing was removed a while ago from the article and is not longer used, so there is no reason to argue against it anymore. Next: "it takes more than merely thinking -- and this is a logic problem, not a procedural one". The problem is a catch 22, if you let someone know your thoughts (without teaching anything), then they imply that to admit a thought, is the same as teaching it, as it comes out of your mouth, keyboard or pen just by the default admittance, and that is where they stick in the hook.

It seems as if you are on a witch hunt for witch hunts. Ironic! (and slightly amusing) - CobaltBlueTony 21:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

You said: "Words such as 'major' and 'severe'" I disagree. How can it not be a major thing for someone to be expelled, humiliated, slandered by default and ensuing gossip, lose all their friends and possibly their family, and be branded some evil doer, and all for just disbelieving many times doctrines that have no scholarly back up at all. I do wish you would not quote scriptures, as you know well if I asked for the scriptures that back up many JW doctrines you would not be able to produce them, and you would run off complaining that you do not wish to argue a point. As for rejecting publications, that is your choice. You are supposed to believe these are the writings of Jehovah; the publications that is, not mine. LOL. (Well you cold be mistaken). Central 21:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"How could it not be?" This is an opinion. Frankly, some who are disfellowshipped are relieved, and some have already been "gone" so long it doesn't matter what action the elders take -- a point I would have thought you would jump on. But then again, you are only hearing from those that do have a problem with their experiences.

The scholarly back-up of doctrines is a separate issue, and really has no bearing on whether Witnesses believe something or not. After all, we believe that humans were created roughly 6,000 years ago, and a good number of scientists and anthropologists would hotly debate that in a New York minute (before the transit strike). The point is, the article is to present what Witnesses as a group believe, and what criticisms exist, and the extent of this criticism. There is a threshold as to what divergence is notable and worth mentioning, and how extensive coverage of it should be, and your views simply do not represent the percentage you seem to think or hope for.

You said, "Maybe you should write to them ... and see what they say." You are the one who seems to want/need the answer to this, so perhaps you should write to them yourself.

Watch Tower, 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, NY 11201-2483 USA - CobaltBlueTony 21:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I relocated the rather rambling paragraph about the percieved contradictions between the JW public position on human rights and their internal practices. It now appears after the paragraph on the holocaust, based upon the relative importance of the topics addressed. Whatever your feelings on the disfellowship practices, it is hard to see how that should have a more prominent place in the article. CarbonCopy (talk) 19:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Definitiveness of WT beliefs

I think it's a good idea for both JWs and ex-JWs here to keep in mind that the Society does not publish an up-to-date explanation of current doctrine. If a doctrine is changed, the Society publishes the new thoughts while rarely mentions previous doctrine. Sometimes, what is publishes appears to contradict what has been already published.

Due to the often vague details of particular beliefs (such as who will be destroyed at Armageddon), I think we need to decide on two things:

• When stating what JWs currently believe, the newest reference wins. Older references can be used to explain what JWs previously believed.
• Often there is a discrepancy with what individual JWs profess to believe and what the WT appears to say. In this case, the sentence should simply say that the Watchtower says this. This allows for the WT statement to be interpreted by individual JW how he/she sees fit.
• If a newer reference is vague, and the older reference is more specific, it's probably a good idea to mention both. For example:

"While The Watchtower has stated that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot speculate on who will survive Armageddon^Ref, it has previously indicated that ...^Ref."

Hopefully this will help settle the quote wars. ;) --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

An excellent set of guidelines which could go a long way towards settling the differences that seem to be ongoing to say the least. Perhaps something similar could go onto the project page as disagreements over old and new quotes from the WT have an impact in all such articles. Lucille S 03:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a good idea in principle, however in the case of your example (who will survive Armageddon), the doctrine protrayed by Central and Tomm has never been, and is not a belief of Jehovah's Witnesses. It has never been, and is not an official teaching. The quotes havn't indicated anything; the discrepancy arrises from nothing more than an ignorance of official Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Allowing "it has previously indicated", in this case, would be deceitful. In this case a more accurate sentence would read: "Bias often influences how one reads Jehovah's Witness publications. This is exemplified by the misreading, and misrepresentation of several out of context quotes posted on quotes.watchtower.ca regarding the issue of "who will survive Armageddon". More often than not, prejudic takes over and the mislead individual parrots the misinterpreted in order to bias others regardless if they believe what they're saying to be true or not." Duffer 03:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's discuss that specific example. See below. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 07:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

One thing that occurs to me is that footnote 13c buried on page 29 of an Awake cannot supercede major, still-used stuff like the Insight volumes, Reasoning and Knowledge books, etc. Otherwise, we would probably have to change their list of beliefs somewhat every time a new magazine comes out.Tommstein 09:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Another thing to be aware of is the watchtower's righthand does not know what it's lefthand is saying so sometimes somethings slips through that are not verified properly with the righthand.--Greyfox 04:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Previous teachings about who will be destroyed at Armageddon

Have Jehovah's Witnesses ever taught that only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon?

From [1]:

*** Watchtower 1989 September 1 p. 19 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***

⁷ Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (inserted this tag: (please leave it, thanks) SteveMc SteveMc)

My understanding of this passage is that only JWs have any hope of surviving Armageddon, even if that is no longer the case. Does anyone have any other understanding of it? --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 07:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Every Jehovah's Witness has a different understanding of this teaching than Central/Tomm. (We believe) The bible specifically states the fate of Witnesses as an organization. We OFFICIALLY TEACH that we do not know what will become of upright, moral, people/children that are not affiliated with us. The quote clearly states: "any Scriptural hope". Duffer 10:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The bible does not "specifically" state anything at all about "the fate of the Witnesses as an organization." The quotes by Tommstein clearly indicate that OFFICIAL Witness doctrine is that non-Witnesses are gonna die. The Witnesses also OFFICIALLY teach that children of bad people are gonna die. Yes, the quote says "any Scriptural hope", and from the claims of Witnesses, there could indeed be no higher appeal to authority than (their interpretation of) the Scriptures.--Jeffro77 10:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Here are some quotes, copied and pasted from the archives since some of us have already had this discussion:

"You Can Live Forever" book (which you quoted from), p. 255:

"You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life."

Everlasting life doesn't come until after the 1000 years of peace, after the final test when Satan is released from the abyss, 1000 years AFTER Armageddon. This quote doesn't even apply to the issue. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Bzzt, wrong answer. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that perfection and such come at the end of the 1,000 years, not some kind of immortality. They believe that you're still just as perfectly welcome to be bad and get zapped after the 1,000 years as you are before, and don't teach that people are going to naturally die of old age during the 1,000 years. Beyond your factual misrepresentations, the context is clearly telling you what you have to do know. You are seriously unversed in your own religious beliefs.Tommstein 18:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Living for 1000 years, with the possibility of dying at the end of it is not immortality. Perfection/immortality comes after the second death, after the 1000 years, after Armageddon. Therefore, you are wrong. Duffer 21:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Do any of the Witnesses here want to smack this fool down with regards to his beliefs of immortality after the 1,000 years, or do I have to?Tommstein 19:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Dying after a period of living for 1000 years is not immortality, it is longevity. Duffer 01:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

And that's all you can expect, because it is not taught that after the 1,000 years you can sin and go off doing whatever you want without consequence. As an irrelevant aside, that was in fact something that troubled me when I was a Witness; if the probability of sinning in nonzero, and to assign something the probability of 0 requires special circumstances, not one saying that they 'really, really don't expect it to happen,' then it will eventually happen given an indefinite amount of time. It's a statistical theorem that, given an infinite amount of trials, the probability of everything is 0 or 1 (what you would call 100%). But, in any case, if it is your story that you can in fact sin and do whatever you want after Armageddon without repercussion, prove it.Tommstein 20:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

We never apply the term "immortality" to humans on earth. We use that term only in connection with Jehovah, Jesus, and the 144000 (after they are resurrected to heaven). MCalkins 07:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

December 1, 1981 Watchtower, p. 27:

"Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do." I wonder where the alternative to "the road to life" might lead to....

I wonder also, Jehovah's Witnesses officially teach that we do not know. Your quote infers your a-proiri.. when you read it as prejudicially as possible. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Come again? Was that supposed to be a refutation of the quote?Tommstein 18:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

How do you read something you do not have? Duffer 21:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, you don't? Just throwing that out there....Tommstein 19:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

September 1, 1989 Watchtower, p. 19:

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil."

That's exactly right. Again you are not seeing the nuanced, yet clear, indicator: "any scriptural hope". There is no scriptural hope BECAUSE it is not mentioned in the bible. That's why we teach that we do not know, and that it is "pointles to speculate" (accurate quotes provided in original link to touchstone). Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Jeffro77 already discussed this above too.Tommstein 18:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"What Does God Require of Us?", p. 13:

"Soon Jesus will judge people, separating them as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. The 'sheep' are those who will have proved themselves his loyal subjects. They will receive everlasting life on earth.... If you want to be one of Jesus' 'sheep,' you must listen to the Kingdom message and act on what you learn." Note that the sheep have to prove themselves (and the last sentence even clarifies that that involves listening to their message and acting on it, i.e. becoming one of them). That doesn't leave space for unbelievers.

Again specifically speaking about good and bad (sheep and goats). "Good" who have heard the message of the kingdom and listened, "Bad" those who have heard, listened, then turned away. This quote does not specifically address those who are "sheeplike" (or children etc..) and not part of the Jehovah's Witness society. This quote is not speaking about them. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Was that supposed to be a rebuttal of the quote and subsequent commentary?Tommstein 18:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"What Does God Require of Us?", p. 30:

"Such knowledge is essential in order for you to gain eternal life. However, others also need to hear the good news so that they too can be saved." That quote is quite clear, and doesn't leave room for unbelievers. And don't give me that 'they just need to hear it, so what if it goes in one ear and out the other,' because I think I'll just drop out of this conversation if you do.

Again, gaining eternal life doesn't happen until 1000 years AFTER Armageddon. The "..others need to hear.. can be saved.." is a highlight of the urgency of our current work. The best chance for a person to be spared is with us, conforming your life to biblical principle and wisdom. Even then you're not assured a safe pass through Armageddon. The only pass through Armegeddon that the bible specifically speaks about is as an organization (an Ark). So naturally, they're best chance is with us. It's bad to be against us. It's not mentioned what it is to be a child or someone who does not know of us. This is not a conversation. This is a refutation of your ignorance. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Bzzt, wrong answer again. Now that we know what the Probabilistic Church of Duffer teaches, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that perfection and such come at the end of the 1,000 years, not some kind of immortality. They believe that you're still just as perfectly welcome to be bad and get zapped after the 1,000 years as you are before, and don't teach that people are going to naturally die of old age during the 1,000 years. Beyond your factual misrepresentations, the context is clearly telling you what you have to do know. The quote is unambiguous, and does not speak of probabilities 'with us' and probabilities 'without us', it states a "need" in order to survive. You are seriously ignorant of your own religion's beliefs.Tommstein 18:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived", very last page (when was the last time you saw a book with no page numbers?):

"All who would gain everlasting life must take in knowledge not only of God but also of his Son, Jesus Christ." Notice that "all... must." Surely I don't have to find a bunch of quotes to convince you of what they consider to be the only source of 'real' knowledge of God and Jesus, as opposed to everyone else's lies and false crap.

They're not on every page, but they're there. Everlasting life comes 1000 years AFTER Armageddon. Repetition is a key to learning. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they're on no pages. Chapter numbers do not constitute page numbers. But you are correct about repetition, so here's a copy-and-paste job: Bzzt, wrong answer again. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that perfection and such come at the end of the 1,000 years, not some kind of immortality. They believe that you're still just as perfectly welcome to be bad and get zapped after the 1,000 years as you are before, and don't teach that people are going to naturally die of old age during the 1,000 years. Beyond your factual misrepresentations, the context is clearly telling you what you have to do know. You are seriously ignorant of your own religion's beliefs.Tommstein 18:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Revelation" book, p. 8:

"If you want to survive into that new world, it is urgent, yes, mandatory, that you pay attention to Revelation's graphic description of the epoch-making climax now at hand." Here we have that this stuff is mandatory, again leaving no ambiguity for unbelievers. Again, they believe that they're the only source of biblical enlightenment in the world, so it wouldn't even be possible to "pay attention" by listening to "Babylon the Great," who they say will be destroyed with all its members, although if someone did then come to believe this stuff they wouldn't really be an unbeliever any more anyway.

How can you pay attention to something you do not know of? Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Since paying attention is "mandatory," you therefore don't get the reward that it is "mandatory" for, to "survive into that new world." This quote is especially good because it leaves you no wiggle room to play your 'after 1,000 years' piece of stupidity; the quote unambiguously refers to 'surviving into that new world.'Tommstein 18:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Revelation" book, p. 129:

[After going on for pages and pages about how they're gathering together the "great crowd"] "There is no evidence that any apart from these two groups [the 144,000 and the "great crowd"] will 'stand' in the day of Jehovah's wrath." They themselves are saying that there's no evidence that anyone else is surviving, unbelievers or whoever, with the obvious implication that they don't believe that anyone else is surviving. To hold that they actually believe that others will survive would just be asinine arguing for the sake of arguing.

That's absolutely correct. There is no evidence. The bible simply does not say. Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT fill in this gap as clearly outlined in the link to the touchstone article. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey genius, pop quiz time: If I say there's no evidence that man ever stepped on the moon or that the world is round, what am I saying?Tommstein 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Revelation" book, pp. 223-4:

"By reason of community responsibility, mankind is guilty of gross shedding of innocent blood. When Jehovah's day of anger arrives, they will literally die at the hands of his executional forces." They state that mankind, period, is screwed, except for them presumably. Again, there's no avenue left for some to not die.

Your problem(s) is presumption (and prejudice.. bias.. stubbornness.. ignorance..). "Presumably" those guilty of the shedding of the blood are the ones to face Jehovah's wrath (JW or not), no? Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

No. The quote says mankind generally is guilty, period, and even throws in "By reason of community responsibility" to excuse condemning the whole world.Tommstein 18:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Revelation" book, p. 225:

"Today, though, during the spiritual plague, there is nowhere in Satan's world that people can find life-giving waters. The pouring out of this third bowl involves proclaiming that the world's 'rivers and the fountains of the waters' are as blood, bringing spiritual death to all who imbibe them. Unless people turn to Jehovah, they reap his adverse judgement." Again, a pretty clear statement that everyone else is screwed.

The quote, now with context, followed by a setting straight of your ignorance of Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Again.

"8Such tainted “waters” have led men to become bloodguilty, for example, in encouraging them to shed blood on a monumental scale in the wars of this century, which have now taken more than a hundred million lives. Particularly in Christendom, where the two world wars erupted, have men been “in a hurry to shed innocent blood,” and this has included the blood of God’s own witnesses. (Isaiah 59:7; Jeremiah 2:34) Mankind has also incurred bloodguilt by its misuse of huge quantities of blood for transfusions, in violation of Jehovah’s righteous laws. (Genesis 9:3-5; Leviticus 17:14; Acts 15:28, 29) On this account, they have already reaped sorrow by the proliferation, through blood transfusions, of AIDS, hepatitis, and other diseases. Full retribution for all bloodguilt will come shortly when transgressors pay the supreme penalty, being trampled in “the great winepress of the anger of God.”—Revelation 14:19, 20.

9In Moses’ day, when the Nile River was turned into blood, the Egyptians were able to keep alive by seeking other sources of water. (Exodus 7:24) Today, though, during the spiritual plague, there is nowhere in Satan’s world that people can find life-giving waters. The pouring out of this third bowl involves proclaiming that the world’s “rivers and the fountains of the waters” are as blood, bringing spiritual death to all who imbibe them. Unless people turn to Jehovah, they reap his adverse judgment.—Compare Ezekiel 33:11.

10 “The angel over the waters,” that is, the angel who pours this bowl into the waters, magnifies Jehovah as the Universal Judge, whose righteous decisions are absolute. Therefore, he says of this judgment: “They deserve it.” Doubtless, the angel personally witnessed much of the bloodshed and cruelty fomented over thousands of years by the false teachings and philosophies of this wicked world. Hence, he knows that Jehovah’s judicial decision is right. Even God’s “altar” speaks out. At Revelation 6:9, 10, the souls of those who were martyred are said to be at the base of that altar. So “the altar” adds powerful testimony as to the justice and righteousness of Jehovah’s decisions. Certainly, it is fitting that those who have shed and misused so much blood should themselves be force-fed with blood, in symbol of Jehovah’s sentencing them to death."

The "imbibers" of the spiritual blood are specifically said to be (paragraph 8 above): the bloodguilty, the transgressors, NOT "everyone else" as you so decietfully state. As graphic as it sounds, it's nothing more than our interpretation of Revelation 16: 4-7. "They deserve it." Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you figured adding two paragraphs would accomplish, but whatever works for you. The quote still specifically says: "Unless people turn to Jehovah, they reap his adverse judgement." There's no qualification on "people." That someone at Bethel went on a bloodlust fantasy has nothing to do with that. That "people" doesn't mean "murderers and other misusers of physical blood" as you imply is further seen by the comparison to the Egyptians, only that this time there's not supposed to be any way out.Tommstein 18:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Revelation" book, p. 234:

"It is the satanic 'air' breathed by the world today, the spirit, or general mental inclination, that characterizes his whole wicked system of things, the satanic thinking that permeates every aspect of life outside Jehovah's organization." So if you're not in "Jehovah's organization," you're breathing satanic "air," you're part of the "whole wicked system of things," and every aspect of your life is permeated by "satanic thinking." By the way, this is actually a discussion of Armageddon itself, the seventh bowl.

The quote, now with context, followed by yet another setting straight of your ignorance:

"“And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: ‘It has come to pass!’”—Revelation 16:17.

“The air” is the final life-sustaining medium to be plagued. But this is not the literal air. There is nothing about the literal air that makes it deserving of Jehovah’s adverse judgments, any more than the literal earth, sea, freshwater sources, or sun deserve to suffer judgments at Jehovah’s hand. Rather, this is “the air” Paul was discussing when he called Satan “the ruler of the authority of the air.” (Ephesians 2:2) It is the satanic “air” breathed by the world today, the spirit, or general mental inclination, that characterizes his whole wicked system of things, the satanic thinking that permeates every aspect of life outside Jehovah’s organization. So in pouring out his bowl upon the air, the seventh angel expresses God’s wrath against Satan, his organization, and everything that motivates mankind to support Satan in defying Jehovah’s sovereignty."

Read the last sentence until you figure out how wrong you are, and why. I'll explain it for you just incase: Pooring out the seventh bowl is (believed by Jehovah's Witnesses) to be an expression of "God’s wrath against Satan, his organization, and everything that motivates mankind to support Satan in defying Jehovah’s sovereignty". DO you see yourself mentioned anywhere in there? Does it say anything about children? Does it say ANYTHING that isn't metaphoric? Is it at least specific in regards to WHO and WHAT the interpretation is aimed at? Yes. I direct you to read the final sentence once more (read it a few times). Besides, this quote is actually NOT a discussion of WHO (individually) will survive Armageddon itself. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, so much work, except that you didn't read my commentary after the quote and must have been responding to your invisible friend's comments.Tommstein 18:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Here are some quotes clarifying the official view, (my comments are in brackets) all the rest are direct quotes:

"The Watch Tower has shown from the Scriptures that there are just two principal organizations—Jehovah's and Satan's. And, as 1 John 5:19 states, "the whole world"—that is, all mankind outside of Jehovah's organization—"is lying in the power of the wicked one. . . But why does God permit it? Is any good being accomplished? Jesus Christ explained that before he as heavenly King would crush Satan and his wicked organization, there would be a separating of people of all nations, as a Middle Eastern shepherd separates sheep from goats. People would be given opportunity to hear about the Kingdom of God and to take their stand on its side.."—Proclaimers book, 1993, p.676 (inserted this tag: (please leave it, thanks) SteveMc 19:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC) )

"But to what was Jesus referring when he said "the world"? In the Bible the expression "the world" sometimes simply means humankind in general. God sent his Son to give his life as a ransom for this world of humankind. (John 3:16) Yet Satan has organized most of humankind in opposition to God. So Satan's world is this organized human society that exists apart from or outside of God's visible organization."—Live Forever book, 1982, 1989, p. 209

"That will be the start of the great tribulation! After that, Jesus turns his attention to what remains of Satan's organization,. . . he will put the wicked one to death. . . That will be a day of doom, indeed, for disobedient nations and humans but a day of relief for all (JWs) who have made Jehovah and his Warrior-King their refuge! . . . The list of those whose corpses would be left lying there shows the range of the destruction: kings, military commanders, strong men, freemen, and slaves (note: all normal people, i.e., non-JWs). No exceptions. Every last trace of the rebellious world in opposition to Jehovah will be eliminated. After this, there will no more be a restless sea of confused humans ( no more non-JWs). (Revelation 21:1) This is "the great evening meal of God," since it is Jehovah who invites the birds to share therein... . . In this way, all of Satan's earthly organization comes to an end. The "former heaven" of political rulership has passed away. The "earth," the seemingly permanent system that Satan has built up over the centuries, is now utterly destroyed. The "sea,"the mass of wicked humanity opposed to Jehovah, is no more."-Isaiah 11:4.—Revelation book, 1988, pp. 282-286 (Note! Anyone who is not a JW is automatically classed as the "mass of wicked humanity opposed to Jehovah", and will be eternally destroyed. This includes ex-JWs, non-believers, agnostics, Christians who are not JWs, and all others of humanity. And no Duffer, your straw man about the end of the 1,000 years is not here!) Central 23:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Knowledge" book, p. 183:

[Regarding Armageddon] "All who oppose God's Kingdom and who are a part of Satan's wicked system will be eliminated. Only those loyal to Jehovah will survive." Again, everyone that's a part of Satan's system dies, which in Jehovah's Witness-ish means 'everyone that's not a Jehovah's Witness.' As if that wasn't clear enough, it then explicitly says that "only those loyal to Jehovah will survive," which kind of eliminates unbelievers, and everyone else for that matter, especially in Jehovah's Witness World where they're Jehovah's only loyal servants.

Who specifically is eliminated? "ALL who oppose God's Kingdom AND who are a part of Satan's wicked system". Who will survive? "Only those loyal to Jehovah". How can you be loyal to one you do not know? How can a Jehovah's Witness child know to be loyal to Jehovah? Are Jehovah's Witnesse children to die as well? Obviously this sentence is speaking about those who remain loyal to Jehovah once they have known him. If this sentence is talking about you, then it must equally be talking about Jehovah's Witness children, but it isn't, and you know that. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, being "a part of Satan's wicked system" constitutes 'opposing God's Kingdom.' If you want to argue that "Only those loyal to Jehovah will survive" means kids are gonna die, go for it. Although the first time this discussion was had it was agreed that they're specifically unclear about children. But if you think they're all gonna die because of this, something no one but you is claiming, go for it.Tommstein 18:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I should add, you are correct, how can you be loyal to someone you don't know? The problem for this web of bullshit that you're spinning is, it says that the loyal are the "only" ones that "will survive," proving the point that you're just some idiot that doesn't know what your own religion teaches.Tommstein 18:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", p. 190:

"Since the Bible shows that practicing true religion... opens the way to enjoy everlasting life in paradise on earth, it surely will be worth your while to make such an investigation." Note that this is what opens to way to the possibility of everlasting life. Which implies that otherwise said way isn't open.

It may imply that to people who do not understand Jehovah's Witness doctrine, such as yourself, but to an informed person, it does not. Besides, to "enjoy everlasting life IN PARADISE" one must have already SURVIVED ARMAGEDDON. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that half of that was an unwitting agreement with me, but was the other half supposed to be a rebuttal or something?Tommstein 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", pp. 210-1:

"The organized human society under Satan the Devil is indeed wicked and corrupt. It is opposed to God's righteous laws, and it is filled with all kinds of immoral practices." Well, there you have them equating human society with wickedness, as opposed to what you were claiming, that they only consider some individuals to be wicked.

I never said, nor claimed that. How is this relevant to Armageddon survival? Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The first person that wanted to have this argument was claiming that only the "wicked" will be destroyed at Armageddon. Is it your argument that 'wickedness' is now OK after all?Tommstein 18:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", p. 216:

"For remember, if you are not serving Jehovah, then you are serving Satan." There's some of the 'with us or against us' business I mentioned earlier. They claim to be the only people serving Jehovah, leaving everyone else as a servant of Satan. Surely you're not fixing to argue that they believe that God will save some servants of Satan at Armageddon.

So? Matthew 1:30... Surely you're not reading into the text something it does not say.. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's see if we can get this on record: are you saying that God will in fact save some servants of Satan at Armageddon? Have you no mental hoops that you won't jump through?Tommstein 19:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", p. 250:

"But living then depends upon your doing God's will now." Kind of eliminates unbelievers, since they don't believe anyone else is doing God's will.

The full quote:

JEHOVAH GOD offers you something wonderful—everlasting life in his righteous new system of things. (2 Peter 3:13) But living then depends upon your doing God’s will now. The present wicked world, including all who remain a part of it, is about to pass away, “but he that does the will of God remains forever.” (1 John 2:17) So you must choose between two courses. One leads to death and the other to eternal life. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Which one will you take?

How can you choose a course if you have not been given the option? Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

If you don't choose the course, you die; it gives no exemption for those that weren't offered the opportunity to make the 'right' choice. Thanks for bringing up though what I left out though, that "The present wicked world, including all who remain a part of it, is about to pass away." It's fun arguing with an incompetent.Tommstein 19:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", pp. 252-3:

"Others must know the things you have learned about God's purposes if they are to survive this system's end and live forever." Notice the word "must." No space for unbelievers, since anyone who knows these things and rejects them would then go under the category of wicked or willful rejecter or whatever.

The quote with context:

"Before the flood, Jehovah used Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” to warn of the coming destruction and to point to the only place of safety, the ark. (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 11:7) God’s will is that you now do a similar preaching work. Jesus foretold regarding our time: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) Others must know the things you have learned about God’s purposes if they are to survive this system’s end and live forever."

The Ark was the only supplied means of escape. The only place of (relatively) ASSURED SAFETY. Just as today (we believe) that the Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is the only place of (relatively) ASSURED SAFETY. The sentence doesn't literally mean you "must know to survive Armageddon". It's a rally cry to get your but in gear and tell some people about Jehovah. It's basically saying: "YOU MUST MAKE others know the things you have learned." Context is everything. It is fully decietful to pluck this sentence out of context and abuse it as you do. Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, was quoting the entire paragraph intended to help your case? The ark wasn't the only place of "(relatively) ASSURED SAFETY," it was the only place of safety, period, seeing as 100% of the people inside survived and 100% of the people outside died. The quote even specifically says, "Others must know the things you have learned about God's purposes if they are to survive this system's end and live forever," which is an explicit requirement "to survive this system's end." Whining and flailing your arms while screaming 'out-of-context' don't help you here.Tommstein 19:21, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer1, start refuting. Oh yeah, those were only my quotes. There were a buttload more from Central and Evident that I will allow them the pleasure of also posting here, or I'll post them myself if necessary.Tommstein 10:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You cannot brow-beat me into silence with your abuse of truth. To head off further assualts against reality I will shortly post quotes (with context) that, unlike ALL of your quotes, specifically addresses the "grey area". Duffer 11:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

If you consider having some facts dropped on you a browbeating, so be it. I suppose you're about to prove that their story varies per publication, which I already acknowledged. But hey, if 'proving' something that has already been agreed to is the closest you can come to proving anything, you do what you need to do.Tommstein 19:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Since the quotes that Central and Evident posted in archive 16 haven't been brought up for discussion here yet, here they are, as promised, original commentary and such still intact:

"The afternoon session was the time for the public talk "The Only Way to Everlasting Life." . . . the speaker concluded with these thought-provoking words: . . .'Your own ears will hear a word behind you saying: "This is the way. Walk in it, you people," in case you people should go to the right or in case you should go to the left.' How do we hear this voice? . . by following the direction that our Grand Instructor, Jehovah God, provides through it and through his modern-day Christian organization. Indeed, to do this is the 'only way to everlasting life'."—Watchtower magazine 15 January 1999, p.9 (no other methods of salvation are even hinted at!) ::::(inserted this tag: (please leave it, thanks))SteveMc 19:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

"The Watch Tower has shown from the Scriptures that there are just two principal organizations—Jehovah's and Satan's. And, as 1 John 5:19 states, "the whole world"—that is, all mankind outside of Jehovah's organization—"is lying in the power of the wicked one. . . But why does God permit it? Is any good being accomplished? Jesus Christ explained that before he as heavenly King would crush Satan and his wicked organization, there would be a separating of people of all nations, as a Middle Eastern shepherd separates sheep from goats. People would be given opportunity to hear about the Kingdom of God and to take their stand on its side.."—Proclaimers book, 1993, p.676

"But to what was Jesus referring when he said "the world"? In the Bible the expression "the world" sometimes simply means humankind in general. God sent his Son to give his life as a ransom for this world of humankind. (John 3:16) Yet Satan has organized most of humankind in opposition to God. So 'Satan's world is this organized human society that exists apart from or outside of God's visible organization'."—Live Forever book, 1982, 1989, p. 209

"Jesus' presence (Greek, parousia) has been demonstrated from 1914 onward by the exposing and judging of the man of lawlessness, the clergy of Christendom. That presence will be strikingly manifested when the ten horns of the scarlet-colored wild beast execute that judgment and ravage Christendom, along with the rest of Babylon the Great. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 8) That will be the start of the great tribulation! After that, Jesus turns his attention to what remains of Satan's organization, in line with the prophecy: "He must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked one to death. . . That will be a day of doom, indeed, for disobedient nations and humans but a day of relief for all who have made Jehovah and his Warrior-King their refuge! . . . In Ezekiel's vision, after the destruction of Gog's crowd, the birds and the wild animals are invited to a feast! They rid the landscape of carcasses by eating the dead bodies of Jehovah's enemies. (Ezekiel 39:11, 17-20) . . .Revelation 19:17, 18. The angel is "standing in the sun," a commanding position for attracting the attention of the birds. He invites them to be ready to gorge themselves on the flesh of those about to be slain by the Warrior-King and his heavenly armies. The fact that the dead are to be left on the surface of the ground indicates that they will die in public shame. . . . The list of those whose corpses would be left lying there shows the range of the destruction: kings, military commanders, strong men, freemen, and slaves. No exceptions. Every last trace of the rebellious world in opposition to Jehovah will be eliminated. After this, there will no more be a restless sea of confused humans. (Revelation 21:1) This is "the great evening meal of God," since it is Jehovah who invites the birds to share therein... . . In this way, all of Satan's earthly organization comes to an end. The "former heaven" of political rulership has passed away. The "earth," the seemingly permanent system that Satan has built up over the centuries, is now utterly destroyed. The "sea," the mass of wicked humanity opposed to Jehovah, is no more."-Isaiah 11:4.—Revelation book, 1988, pp. 282-286 (Note! Anyone who is not a JW is automatically classed as the "mass of wicked humanity opposed to Jehovah", and will be eternally destroyed. This includes ex-JWs, non-believers, agnostics, Christians who are not JWs, and all others of humanity.)

"Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just the one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization—God's visible organization—that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal. (Matthew 7:21-23; 24:21) You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life"—Live Forever book, 1982, 1989, p.255

(Watchtower 76 2/15 pp. 115-116 Jehovah’s Friend or the World’s Friend—Which?) — 9 You youths, especially, must be careful about imitating these people since your natural inclination is to imitate older ones. But these prominent people are just imperfect human creatures who will die at Armageddon, if they do not change their course and conform to the standards of Jehovah. Would it be wise, then, to walk with such persons by copying their ways? Would it not be better for you younger ones, as well as you adults, to hold in esteem those that have proved themselves to be friends of God—individuals like Moses, Joshua, David, Barak, Jephthah and Jesus? Others, too, such as Ruth, Rahab, Deborah and many, many more, have kept friendship with Jehovah and are truly worthy of our admiration and esteem. (Heb. 11:4-38) What about the modern examples of those that have remained friends with God? Wouldn’t you like to imitate the loyalty and endurance of your brothers who have withstood the brunt of dictatorships like Hitler’s Nazi regime or the Communist types, because they would not renounce their friendship with Jehovah? These and countless others that have walked with God down through the stream of time will be alive after the “great tribulation,” whereas the prominent friends of this world will be gone forever.—Ps. 37:10, 34, 38; Matt. 24:21, 22.

(Watchtower 93 10/1 p. 19 “Search Through Me, O God”) — 14 There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation. Yet, Jehovah takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, nor should we. (Ezekiel 33:11) As long as time permits, we endeavor to help such people to learn and apply Jehovah’s ways. But what if some people show intense hatred for Jehovah?

"14 Many people are disillusioned with the churches and no longer attend. They may also be greatly disturbed about the violence and dishonesty in the world. But that does not necessarily mean that they are marked for survival. They must be marked by the 'man with the secretary's inkhorn.' The facts show that "the faithful and discreet slave" class is doing that marking work today.-Matthew 24:45-47.

15 All who want to be marked as having God's approval must accept the instruction that Jehovah is providing through that "slave" class and become true worshipers of Jehovah. They must not be persons who honor Jehovah with their mouths but who really love the world's ways. (Isaiah 29:13, 14; 1 John 2:15) They must love Jehovah and his standards and feel grieved at heart, "sighing and groaning," over teachings and practices that dishonor him. No one will put a literal ink mark on their forehead. But when they have the symbolic mark it will be obvious to all that, as dedicated, baptized Christians, they have put on the "new personality" described at Ephesians 4:24. They have a living faith. Publicly and privately they endeavor to do what will honor Jehovah. Not only persons who have come out of Christendom but all, regardless of background, who hope to survive into the "new earth" as associates of the anointed class must have this mark.

16 Particularly significant is the fact that Jehovah's executioners were told that age, sex, singleness or marriage relationship was no reason to spare an offender against Jehovah. A married person must individually have his or her mark in order to be spared. If parents resist having their children marked or if they fail to bring them up as servants of Jehovah, they must bear the responsibility for what happens to those children. Although obedient children of godly parents are viewed as "holy" by Jehovah, rebellious ones are not. (1 Corinthians 7:14; Psalm 102:28; Proverbs 20:11; 30:17) If children are old enough to become baptized Christians but do not want to live up to the requirements, whether they are baptized or not, their age will not result in their being spared. How vital, then, for each individual of responsible age to be clearly marked as a person dedicated to God and doing his will!

17 Jehovah has shown great compassion for mankind by sending his witnesses to warn them of impending destruction and to point the way to safety. But he well knows the record of false religion and the rotten fruitage that it has produced. When Babylon the Great is destroyed, no compassion will be shown for any who insist on clinging to it. To survive the coming execution of divine judgment, we must walk in the footsteps of Jesus Christ as true worshipers of Jehovah, the Creator of heaven and earth." Watch Tower publication-Survival Into a New Earth 1984 chap. 12 pp. 96-97

These probably need at least the usual meaningless responses from Duffer.Tommstein 08:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's some more, from the "Reasoning" book:

"Reasoning" book, p. 46:

"[In answer to the specific question "Who or what will be destroyed at Armageddon?"] Rev. 19:17, 18: 'I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great."'" Note that this text, which they cite verbatim to directly answer the question of who's dying, talks about eating "the fleshy parts of all."

"Reasoning" book, pp. 46-7:

"[Again answering the specific question "Who or what will be destroyed at Armageddon?"] Rev. 21:8: "As for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death." This is also given, verbatim, as an answer to the question of who's dying. It is notable because it includes "those without faith" among those that are going to die, and because Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only they can truly have "real faith."

"Reasoning" book, p. 48:

"[In answer to the question "Is it possible to take a neutral position?"] Matt. 12:30: "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters." Basically, no.

Reply away.Tommstein 08:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's some more:

June 15, 1999 Watchtower, p. 6:

"Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ, truly want all kinds of people to have the opportunity to learn Bible truth. God's Word can do more than help individuals to stop being vandals right now. It can motivate them to make further progress in applying divine principles. As a result, they become members of an international brotherhood known for cleanness and good manners, the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In harmony with Ephesians 4:24, these sincere Christians have 'put on the new personality which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty.' Soon the world will be filled with such people because these will be the only ones who will survive and live forever.-Compare Luke 23:43." So, who "will be the only ones who will survive?" Those who "become members of an international brotherhood known for cleanness and good manners, the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses." Pretty clear there.

December 15, 1982 Watchtower, p. 27:

"In this way only lovers of God and of his family, his organization, will survive and enter into the cleansed earth that is to be transformed into a glorious Paradise." If someone knows how some random dude that is ignorant of Jehovah's Witnesses is supposed to love that organization, let me know. Since this quote says that such are the only people that will survive.

January 15, 1992 Watchtower, p. 24:

"Jehovah's Witnesses are unique in ever so many ways. They alone speak the 'pure language.'" Note that only Jehovah's Witnesses "speak the 'pure language'." This is important for the next two references.

January 15, 1991 Watchtower, p. 29:

"The speaker showed that although three thousand different languages now act as barriers to unity, the pure language is a mighty unifying force. It has safeguarded Jehovah’s Witnesses against Babylonian errors, has taught them respect for the sanctity of life and blood, and has helped them to live by Bible principles that benefit them spiritually and physically. All need to be concerned about learning and speaking the pure language, for only those doing so will survive Armageddon." So, only those "learning and speaking the pure language" "will survive Armageddon." Note from the previous reference that they explicitly state that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones that do so.

May 1, 1991 Watchtower, p. 14:

"Similarly today, 'a great crowd' of Jesus' 'other sheep' gathered out of all nations will survive Armageddon into God's new world. (Revelation 7:9; John 10:14-16) Only those who learn and speak the pure language will be joyful survivors." Another explicit statement that only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon, in light of their views of the "pure language."

December 1, 1999 Watchtower, p. 18:

"The message is clear: If we want to survive Armageddon, we must remain spiritually alert and keep the symbolic garments that identify us as faithful Witnesses of Jehovah God." Self-explanatory.

April 1997 Our Kingdom Ministry, p. 3:

"Shoulder the Responsibility: Every disciple maker must realize that it is his responsibility to direct the Bible student to God's organization. (1 Tim. 4:16) Each study session should be viewed as a stepping-stone toward the happy day when the new one will symbolize his dedication to Jehovah by water baptism. One of the questions that he will be asked during the baptism ceremony is: 'Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?' Hence, it is important that he realize he cannot serve God without actively associating with the true Christian congregation." Note the explicit statement about it being impossible to "serve God without actively associating with the true Christian congregation," which eliminates random ignorant people.

September 15, 1992 Watchtower, pp. 23-4:

"Soon, at Armageddon, Jehovah God will cause all 'the wisdom of the wise men' to perish. He will shove aside all 'the intelligence of the intellectual men' who made predictions of how their new world order would bring better conditions for mankind. 'The war of the great day of God the Almighty' will incinerate all the sophistry, philosophy, and wisdom of this world. (1 Corinthians 1:19; Revelation 16:14-16) The only ones who will survive that war and gain life in God's new world are those who obey what this world calls foolishness--yes, Jehovah's glorious Kingdom good news." The last sentence eliminates the possibility of random ignorant people, or anyone but Jehovah's Witnesses, surviving.

What Does God Require of Us?, p. 10:

"Before this earth can become a paradise, wicked people must be removed. (Psalm 37:38) This will happen at Armageddon, which is God's war to end wickedness. Next, Satan will be imprisoned for 1,000 years. This means that no wicked ones will be left to spoil the earth. Only God's people will survive." Besides the clear pigeonholing dichotomy of "wicked people" versus "God's people," it clearly says that "Only God's people will survive" (which Jehovah's Witnesses believe is them), which precludes random ignorant people and anyone else that isn't a Jehovah's Witness.

April 1, 1982 Watchtower, pp. 30-1:

"15 Yes, 'the great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much.' (Zephaniah 1:14) We are living in a time of judgment when 'all the nations' are gathered before Christ Jesus. The people of all those nations are being separated into two classes, the 'sheep' and the 'goats.' The end result is plainly stated: 'everlasting life' for the 'sheep,' and 'everlasting cutting-off' for the "goats."--Matthew 25:31-33, 46.

16 Again showing the finality of Jehovah's judgment, Paul writes: 'It is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation [apokalypsis] of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.'--2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.

17 Notice that the 'judicial punishment of everlasting destruction' is executed not only upon 'those who make tribulation' for God's people but also upon 'those who do not know God' and 'those who do not obey the good news.' In his letter to the Romans, Paul explains why 'those who do not know God' are 'inexcusable' and why they will be judged. (Romans 1:18-20; 2:5-16) The 'angel flying in midheaven,' spoken of in Revelation chapter 14, summons all 'who dwell on the earth' to 'fear God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived.' Therefore people are urged to 'worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea.' Those who fail to do so, and all those who put faith in Satan's political 'wild beast' rather than in God's Messianic kingdom, will be destroyed with that 'beast' in "the great winepress of the anger of God."--Revelation 14:6, 7, 9, 10, 14-20; 19:11-21.

18 Any who hope to be 'concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger' must 'seek righteousness, seek meekness' and 'practice Jehovah's own judicial decision,' rather than criticize it. (Zephaniah 2:2, 3) Any who hope to be considered by God's Judge as 'sheep' to be spared must prove themselves to be 'righteous ones,' actively aiding Christ's anointed 'brothers,' who form the 'faithful and discreet slave' class. (Matthew 25:33, 40, 46; 24:45-47) The only ones to whom the Bible extends hope of surviving the 'great tribulation' are Christ's 'brothers,' or 'chosen ones,' and the 'great crowd' of 'sheep' who 'render God sacred service' without letup, constantly saying for all to hear: 'Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.' As baptized disciples drawn from 'people of all the nations,' this 'great crowd' is shepherded by the Lamb, Christ Jesus, who guides them to 'fountains of waters of life' that will never fail. 'And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.'--Matthew 24:21, 22; 25:34; 28:19, 20; Revelation 7:9-17." They couldn't have stated it any more clearly if they had tried really, really hard.

September 15, 1991 Watchtower, p. 17:

"To ensure their salvation, Noah and his family needed to exercise faith. This meant following instructions and the leadings of God's holy spirit. During the great tribulation, it will be just as imperative that we follow the leadings of the holy spirit and obey Jehovah's instructions through his organization." Someone please explain how an ignorant person is supposed to "obey Jehovah's instructions through his organization."

I hope none of these were duplicates. Also, I think that both some of these and some that were previously posted are more recent than anything Duffer has provided. Thus, even if we only consider the most recent thing, Duffer still loses the case.Tommstein 07:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The ONLY teaching of who will survive Armageddon

These are cut and paste directly from the Touchstone link since none of you bothered to read it Duffer 12:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC):

w76 6/1 347-8 Look Forward with Confidence in God's Righteousness and Justice ***

16. Observe, however, that Jesus did not leave it up to humans to determine who are the "sheep" and who are the "goats." How fine that is! For, if we humans were responsible to judge, how could we properly evaluate factors such as: How much of an opportunity did a person have to hear and accept the good news? Did his genetic, family or religious background affect his response? What is his heart condition—does he love righteousness? If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility have on the matter?—1 Cor. 7:14; Deut. 30:19.

17. Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are 'perfect, righteous and upright.' (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not? If we say, 'I think these people in this certain situation are "goats" and will perish eternally, but those in that other category will live,' are we not making ourselves judges? (Jas. 4:12) Rather than trying to decide whether a certain person, family or group of persons fits the description of the "goats" or not, we can be content to leave the matter in the hands of "the Judge of all the earth."—Gen. 18:25.

18. God's judgments are not merely a matter of applying strict, unfeeling justice. His mercy, compassion and love are involved. As the psalmist David put it: "He has not done to us even according to our sins; nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve." (Ps. 103:10) Actually the only wages that imperfect, sinful humans deserve is death. (Rom. 6:23) Yet, in his mercy and compassion Jehovah has purposed that the message of salvation be spread extensively so that humans might gain life. He wants them to do so. (Ezek. 33:11; Isa. 55:6, 7) If God's mercy, love and compassion have been displayed so consistently down to this time, and we have benefited from them, cannot we be absolutely certain that they will come into play, too, in the judgment at the conclusion of the system of things? Yes, the survivors will be absolutely right when they proclaim, "Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions."—Rev. 16:5-7; 19:1, 2.

w95 10/15 28 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats? ***

23 Many are exposed to our message as we preach from house to house or informally. Others may learn of Jehovah's Witnesses and what we represent in ways unknown to us. When judgment time arrives, to what extent will Jesus consider community responsibility and family merit? We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate.

All two of these boil down to 'we're not the judges of what specific people live or die during Armageddon, God will be the judge,' which, besides being a 'no crap' kind of thing, has nothing to do with anything.Tommstein 09:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of this noble suggestion that "it is pointless to speculate", the quotes given above by Tommstein quite clearly indicate that they have specifically done just that, and most often their speculation is that non-Witnesses are gonna die.--Jeffro77 12:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I've often heard and read that since Matthew 24:14 does NOT say that every PERSON would be reached, but 'all the nations,' and since we cannot account for EVERY nuance of personal circumstance of EVERY individual on the face of the earth, that it is indeed quite possible that we will be surprised at the number of those who are not Witnesses that we will find standing on the other "side" of Armageddon. This attitude has been repeatedly reflected again and again; preaching is beneficial directly ONLY to the preacher, and not necessarily to the audience. So Witnesses are required to preach ("with the lips one makes public declaration for [their own] salvation"), but JEHOVAH judges in the end. I grew up in the faith thinking that everyone had to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and so I remember learning (over time) that such a position was essentially not Scripturally sound. However, if someone has been given ample opportunity in God's eyes and rejected it, then it is quite likely they would not survive Armageddon.

I don't understand any of the arguments above (who said what, who tipped up, but I have to say that Duffer's copypaste represents the views Witnesses currently hold, especially the hope that "we may be amazed and delighted to observe him [Jehovah] resolve them [issues relating to individual's privelege to pass into the New World] in a way that we never even considered." To me at least, that is a key and critical element of my faith, and my beliefs regarding the end of the world. - CobaltBlueTony 19:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm trying to follow this thread. Is there a way to harmonize the two sorts of quotes (the ones highlighted by Duffer and those by Tommstein)? I find it hard to believe that the quotes which seem more "hardline" are now superseded. I would think a harmonization could be possible. Dtbrown 22:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

How about something to the effect of, "While Witnesses have long held to the generalization that non-Witnesses would die at Armageddon by default, recent publications suggest that they have since thought on the matter and concluded that since it is not their place to judge others, they cannot say for certain who exactly will face execution by Jehovah's hand at Armageddon. Just the same, they do feel that those who in God's eyes have been given ample opportunity to respond to the warning of the Bible and deliberately fail to accept this of their own accord and with all of their faculties in place will more than likely not survive the coming judgement." Or hopefully something less verbose? ;-) - CobaltBlueTony 22:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Conjecture based on biblical precedent is far different than baseless speculation, and NOT ONE of Tommstein's quotes specifically addresses this grey area. Contrary to that FACT, everything I have provided does address the grey area. (As if the testimony of EVERY Jehovah's Witness isn't good enough..) Duffer 13:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

We have "the testimony of EVERY Jehovah's Witness?" Man, I knew their numbers stopped really growing and/or started declining in most of the non-third world, but who would have thought that there were actually so few left. In any case, congratulations, you've proven that they print conflicting things in different publications. You're only a few days behind the rest of the article now.Tommstein 19:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Reasoning From the Scriptures pg. 47 Armageddon ***

What will happen to young children at Armageddon?

The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges.

w98 8/15 20 Strengthening Our Confidence in God's Righteousness***

18. With complete confidence in Jehovah's righteousness, we need not worry about finding answers to questions like: 'How will babies and small children be judged? Might it be that a large number of people will not yet have been reached with the good news when Armageddon arrives? What about the mentally ill? What about...?' Granted, at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues. He will do so, however, in a righteous and merciful way. We should never doubt that. In fact, we may be amazed and delighted to observe him resolve them in a way that we never even considered."

The lack or quotable quotes on this issue is easily explained; the question is DIRECTLY ADDRESSED in the Reasoning book (see above). For those of you that don't know, the Reasoning book is a small quick reference, like a "Frequently Asked Questions" booklet about our beliefs and doctrines. Duffer 12:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

It was agreed last time to put in a disclaimer that possibly small children would survive. I don't know if it's still in the article. Hurray, you're engaging in groundbreaking research only 2-3 months behind the rest of us.Tommstein 19:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Before I say anything else, I have to say to Duffer, or Matthew, or whoever you are, that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses myself I was very ashamed in reading the postings in this discussion. It is important to clear up misunderstandings, but not at the expense of being argumentative or making angered or hurtful comments. Acts 12:17-21 certainly makes that clear. Perhaps it isn't most apropriate to lecture on a public discussion board, but I feel it is very important! Also, whoever said you should do your research was right - "Make sure of the more important things" and "keep making sure". For the record, the statement that the bible says nothing about "non-believers" is not entirely true. Acts 24:15 says, "and I have hope toward God, which hope these men themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." There are many articles in magazines, as well as parts of other publications, that refer to this scripture. Since it seems that many of you have access to the Watchtower CD-ROM, please look up "it-2 p. 788", "w99 4/1 p. 18", and "w95 2/15 pp. 10-12" to see some of these references. There are other assertions and subjects that were disputed, and I cannot at this time discuss any others (or else I will be late for work), but I would like to make one more reminder: watchtower.org is the only official site of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I truly appreciate that wikipedia is making this effort to try and keep their information accurate. I also find it commendable that so many are eager to clear up an inaccuracies. However, there may still be some discrepancies. That is why there is only one official site for Jehovah's Witnesses - and why the Society suggests, and in fact asks, that individual Witnesses not post their own sites for these matters. However, a moderate ammount of well-researched (and perhaps double-checked) suggestions, given in a peacable manner, may be appropriate. Note to wikipedia: comments from individual witnesses are not statements from the WBTS! And, because of personal opinion, or personal interpretation, perhaps in some cases misunderstanding, not everything said may be totally accurate. After all, 'all have sinned and fall short.'

"whoever said you should do your research was right", please expound on this comment. Your following comments suggest you are mistaken as to the content of the discussion. We are not talking about the resurection, but those who will, or will not, die at Armageddon. This discussion is also a few weeks old and for the most part I have curbed the hostility of my reactions to the verbal abuse, provocation, and harassment from the above editors user:Tommstein and user:Central. Marvin? Duffer 23:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Were you not aware the Duffer1 has claimed to know your 'heart and mind', meaning you must be wrong and/or lying and/or nonexistent? But thank you. This is stuff we've been trying to say for weeks, only to encounter... well, you see what we've encountered. See, this isn't a Witness vs. non-Witness thing, it's a common sense vs. Duffer1-and-cronies thing.Tommstein 02:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretation of the discussion; if so, I appologize. But are you not talking about those who will be DESTROYED at armageddon? In otherwords, those who will not be resurrected at all? If the subject is that of DEATH at Armageddon, then yes, the Bible simply speaks of a "great crowd" that will live through armageddon and begin the restoration of Earth into a paradise. If anyone would like sources for that, see the Feb. 15, 1995 Watchtower, P. 13-17 (or let me know if you would like actual excerpts from the article - it is fairly extensive). However, here, I believe, is the key: This is not to be confused with the permanent destruction of the wicked at Armageddon. Not all those who DIE before or during Armageddon will neccessarily be 'destroyed'. That is where the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous comes in - and, I believe, where the misunderstandings began. It sounds to me like Duffer is talking only about those who actually die at Armageddon, while everyone else is talking about the destroying of the wicked at Armageddon - who are the wicked that will be destroyed, and who are the righteous that will live through Armageddon or be resurrected after?

Here is an excerpt from the book "Reasoning from the Scriptures", published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, pages 46-47:

¶ Who or what will be destroyed at Armageddon?

Dan. 2:44: “The God of heaven will set up a kingdom . . . It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.”

Rev. 19:17, 18: “I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: ‘Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.’”

1 John 2:16, 17: “Everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.”

Rev. 21:8: “As for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.”¶

Another excerpt from the same book, pages 47-48, that is relevant:

¶ Will there be survivors?

Zeph. 2:3: “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”

Rom. 10:13: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

Ps. 37:34: “Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, and he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see it.”

John 3:16: “God . . . gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

Rev. 7:9, 10, 14: “I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.’”¶

I appologize if any of this has already been quoted - I did read the earlier comments, but may have missed it. Again though, note that the first quote is in regards to the destruction of the wicked, while the second quote talks BOTH of those who will live through the Great Tribulation, as well as those who will be resurrected after. Another note, is that although this is a quote from a WBTS publicatioin, it does nothing more than quote the bible itself. Yet this encompasses precisely what we believe - as well as why.

I would also like to appologize that I am posting these comments under this discussion rather than a newer one - I have not yet had a chance to read further, and didn't want to really confuse things by posting after something else and perhaps repeating what was said there, or further confusing the subject - which seems to be something I'm good at! --Restarz 04:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The claim has been made by Tommstein and Central that Witnesses believe that only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon. For the most up to date version of this discussion please see my request for mediation. Duffer 05:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a half-truth (quarter-truth? Tenth-truth? See how this dude single-handedly manages to give a very bad impression of Witnesses on here?). The claim has been made by everyone except Duffer1 and one or two friends. That includes a lot more people than just Central and I. Despite this little fact continually being brought up (and being pretty self-evident from a cursory look at the discussions), Duffer1 continues to lie about it at every opportunity.Tommstein 03:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

What would you have me say Tomm? "Tommstein, Central, and pals"? You two are the only ones that have actively, and directly, enganged in this edit dispute with me. Others have commented sure, but you two are the only ones on my mind due to your pervasive incivility. It's a given that there are more people than you and Central who hold the same misconceptions about Witness theology. The Touchestone article I referenced that was posted on Aug. 25 2003 proves that. Leave me alone man, if you can't, at least be civil. Duffer 06:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Something that is not at best a half-, quarter-, tenth-, or other fractional -truth, and at worst a baldfaced lie. Please read WP:NPA and WP:CIV at your nearest convenience.Tommstein 06:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding whether those who are killed at Armageddon are supposed to stay dead, the Reasoning book is actually pretty clear. On page 47, under "Will the destruction be forever?", it says:

"Matt. 25:46: 'These [who refused to do good to Christ's "brothers"] will depart into everlasting cutting-off.'

2 Thess. 1:8, 9: 'Those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus... will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.'"

This is pretty clear, per the expressions "everlasting cutting-off" and "everlasting destruction." I don't think anyone on either side of this argument has claimed that Armageddon destruction will be anything less than "everlasting." I think everyone is also in agreement regarding the teaching of some unrighteous people who died before Armageddon getting resurrected after Armageddon. So we are truly discussing what they have said about who lives and who dies at Armageddon itself. On an unrelated side note, it seems that their quoting a scripture saying that "Those who do not know God" are among the eternally whacked at Armageddon indicates (in addition to the other 16,000 quotes that have been provided) that there is no space for ignorant fence-sitters at Armageddon, "who do not know God."Tommstein 03:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The point was to end quote wars, not start one

This is ridiculous. First, as noted earlier, the point of the dicussion was to establish if at any time JWs have taught that non-Witnesses will not survive Armageddon. IMO, this has been clearly established in the affirmative.

Duffer, you must understand, that the personal views of each and every JW editing here are irrelevant to what goes in the article. The article must state what the Watchtower says, not what individuals take it to mean.

Tony, I thought your sentence was excellent in concept. If we can come up with a more concise version then I think we've solved the problem. For now. ;) --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 22:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Tell that to Duffer, who still thinks every single one of those quotes was wrong, somehow.Tommstein 19:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is rediculous. At NO point in time has Jehovah's Witnesses taught that ALL non-Witnesses will die at Armageddon. Not ONE of the quotes provided says this. Contrary to that, EVERY quote that I provided SPECIFICALLY states that "we do not know", "the bible does not say", "we are not the judges" etc.. Not only is this what Jehovah's Witnesses take it to mean, it is what the Watchtower has SPECIFICALLY STATED as I have proven. NOT ONE of Tomm's quotes specifically states otherwise (in context). Duffer 09:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer, you have not adequately responded to the original quote I posted. The WT clearly says that non-JWs have no "Scriptural hope." I can see this only to mean that the Scriptures provide no hope for non-JWs. Do you understand it differently? Please don't post more quotes. Simply discuss this particular quote first. Thanks. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 13:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

"No scriptural hope" means exactly what it says: there is no specific information on their fate in the bible. It does not say they are "scripturally lost" as you seem to believe and as Tomm and Central so vociferously claim. This point is unequivocally qualified in the articles I posted that are specifically talking about the fate of righteous non-believers. You have not responded at all to the fact that what I have posted IS what the Watchtower has SPECIFICALLY STATED (and still does), compared to what is only merely infered by what Tomm and Central have posted. I can readily see how even an unbiased person could read these quotes and walk away with a false impression of our beliefs, however, they are still false impressions. If you would like to persist in ignorance of Jehovah's Witness doctrine that is certainly your right, what is not your right (or Tomm's, or Central's) is the proliferation of your misconceptions in an encyclopedia. Duffer 02:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It has been responded to, about 18 times. That they change their story in different publications was conceded long ago, but if continually bringing it up is what you have to do to feel good about your persuasive skills and be able to sleep at night, you do what you have to do. You are correct, this is an encyclopedia, not a forum for Jehovah's Witnesses to try to put on a pretty face to make recruits.Tommstein 20:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

First, Duffer, there is no need to be rude to me. I have always been polite in my comments to you. I am not "ignorant" of JW doctrine; I just have a different point of view. I have no interest in "proliferating misconceptions". THERE IS NO NEED TO WRITE IN ALL CAPITALS OR IN BOLD. That is shouting.

Now, let me repeat the point of this discussion:

• We are trying to establish if JW have at any time taught that non-JWs will be destroyed at Armageddon. Whether that is no longer taught is irrelevant. As such please do not point to WT quotes that show that some non-JWs will survive, since that is not what we are looking for.

You're right, I'm sorry, I let Tomm get under my skin and that negatively effected my mood.. any typing. I apologize. Duffer 10:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

When did it become "at some point in time"? The sentence from Central and Tomm has no time indicator:

"Humans who have had contact with Jehovah's Witnesses or know of them, and yet still do not actively side with Jehovah by becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses will be eternally killed at Armageddon without consideration for age.."

That is not a current belief. It has no business in the "Beliefs and Doctrines" sections. When I said earlier that: "at NO time have we ever taught..." that was merely bluster on my part, I really just didn't know, and was too tired to verify. Further digging reveals that apparently we did at one time teach that only Witnesses would survive. Going through the WT articles, 1976 was the earliest direct answer to that question (the answer of Non-witness survivers) that I have been able to find. Despite this, I still stand by my previous statements regarding Tomm's out of context quotes. Here's one for you Tomm that actually says what you want it to say: WT 1950 p438 "There Jehovah will clear the earth of these fanatical superpatriots of this world and will let only his faithful witnesses survive on earth into the new world where all creatures will pay back to God the things belonging to God." So, yes, at one time it does appear that we did teach such a thing as the original quote suggests. However, that is not a current teaching as pointed out by the Reasoning book (quoted above) and various post '76 WT articles. Duffer 10:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• When introducing new doctrine, the WT rarely announces that this is a new doctrine. Usually, the new doctrine is simply printed in the WT, and JWs work out that this is the new understanding. Due to this, if a newer reference says something different to an older reference, we cannot tell if the new statement is meant to override or simply complement the old statement.

• The quote in question says that non-JWs have no "Scriptural hope". This statement is quite clear. The WT article the quote comes from gives no indication that someone with no Scriptual hope still has a hope of surviving. If a subsequent article says that non-JWs have some hope, we have no way to tell if this was the original meaning of "no Scriptural hope" or a correction. As such, we must simply say that the WT has said that non-JWs have no Scriptural hope, and later that...--K. AKA Konrad West TALK 05:23, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Right, no "scriptural hope". That is not tantemount to "no hope." It means that the bible (scripturally) does not say (this is directly stated in the WT 95 article I quoted above). Lets summarize:

• I lied about: "at no time have we taught..", I should have verified before posting.
• It turns out we did at one time (pre-76) teach that only Jehovah's Witnesses would survive Armageddon.
• However, post '76, articles specifically addressing this subject teach that there may be non-Witness survivers.
• Tomm's "quotes" don't say what he wants them to, they may infer, but they do not specifically address. The articles that DO specifically address, specifically state that non-witnesses may survive Armageddon.
• Since it is not a current teaching, it has no business in the "Beliefs and Doctrines" section, and I have already updated the line to our current teaching: "Those who consciously, and actively, oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses' ministry will be eternally killed at Armageddon along with the unrighteous. Those who have no knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses, and live righteously, may possibly be spared." Duffer 10:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The vast majority of my quotes (if not all, but I'm not checking) were printed after your arbitrary 1976 date. So what we have is an organization teaching one thing, and then printing things that even you said that an unbiased person could read to mean the same thing that even you now acknowledge they taught. The fact that natural languages are ambiguous does not mean we have to play stupid, and your argument basically reduces to 'natural language is ambiguous, there's still a 1% chance that this could have meant something that it does not even appear to state.' With only some quotes, at that; you didn't even live up to that high standard on a lot of the quotes. Posting random crap after a quote is not a proof that it doesn't say what 99.5 out of 100 people would read it as (and the other 0.5 guy was Duffer).Tommstein 20:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I found some more recent quotes that are interesting:

"Fiery Destruction Ahead! . . .In Ezekiel's day, Jehovah's anger was poured out by means of the Babylonians. . . . But what about our day? . . . Of course, those refusing to listen to Jehovah's "watchman" have no hope of survival"—Watchtower magazine, 15 Sept, 1988, pp.14-15. (Note to Duffer: merely "not listening" to JWs is enough to be destroyed.)

"Jehovah God lovingly helps people to understand what the Bible teaches about the Kingdom. He does so by instructing and sending forth people to explain the Scriptures to others. Over five million Witnesses of Jehovah are now proclaiming the good news of God's Kingdom. . .Will everyone accept the invitation to become a subject of God's Kingdom by conforming to his righteous standards? (Translation: become a JWs) No. . . Although Jehovah patiently continues to send his Witnesses to teach people about his ways and purposes, he will not continue to do so much longer. . . .What will "the end" mean for those who reject God's standards? (Translation: those who ignore JWs' message) It will mean their adverse judgment and destruction. . . .These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction. . .Following the destruction of those who reject Jehovah's ways of peace (those who reject JWs and the Watch Tower Society)"—Watchtower 15 May 1996, pp.6-7

Note the hidden judgment in this article that claims to not judge: "How have Christ's brothers and the millions of other sheep united with them as one flock been treated? Many people may not personally have attacked Christ's representatives, but neither have they treated his people lovingly. Preferring the wicked world, goatlike ones reject the Kingdom message (here we have it, they have rejected the JW's version of the message, so they are now clearly judged as "goats"), whether hearing it directly or indirectly. (1 John 2:15-17) Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. (Note how they sidetrack here as a distraction for their judgement) It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats" (note they already have judged who is, anyone who rejects their message is a goat!) They go on: ". . . What a contrast is the judgment executed on the goats! 'Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. . . . By sentencing the goats to 'everlasting fire,' the Judge means destruction devoid of a future hope, which will also be the permanent end . . .The goats will receive 'everlasting cutting-off.' —Watchtower 15 October 1995, pp.26-27. You could not have it cleared in a relatively recent publication, anyone who rejects or ignores Jehovah's Witnesses version of the "Kingdom message" is "a goat", and "all goats will die eternally". Central 19:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Found these last ones:

"In ancient times, slaves were often marked on the forehead. By the preaching work today, the antitypical 'man clothed in linen'—the remnant of Jesus' anointed followers—is 'marking' those who will survive the end of this system. In this work the anointed are assisted by their associates, the "other sheep." (Ezekiel 9:1-7; John 10:16) And what is the "mark"? It is the evidence that we are dedicated to Jehovah and are Jesus' baptized disciples who have a Christlike personality. Especially now is it vital that we have the "mark" and retain it, for we are deep into "the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4) To be saved we must 'endure to the end' of our present life or of this system. (Matthew 24:13) Only if we thus remain faithful as witnesses of Jehovah will baptism save us."—Watchtower 15 January 1989 p.20 How Baptism Can Save Us

"A dedicated, baptized person faithfully endeavoring to follow Jesus is special to God. Jehovah examines all the billions of human hearts and knows how rare such individuals are. He considers them to be treasures, "desirable things." (Haggai 2:7) Bible prophecies show that God views such ones as marked to survive the execution of his judgment soon to come upon this wicked system of things. (Ezekiel 9:1-6; Malachi 3:16, 18) Are you "rightly disposed for everlasting life"? (Acts 13:48) Is it your earnest desire to be marked as one serving God? Dedication and baptism are part of that mark, and they are essential for survival."—Knowledge book, 1995 p.180 Make It Your Aim to Serve God Forever

"The speaker showed that although three thousand different languages now act as barriers to unity, the pure language is a mighty unifying force. It has safeguarded Jehovah's Witnesses against Babylonian errors, has taught them respect for the sanctity of life and blood, and has helped them to live by Bible principles that benefit them spiritually and physically. All need to be concerned about learning and speaking the pure language, for only those doing so will survive Armageddon."—Watchtower 15 January 1991 p.29

"However, is it not a shocking thing for Jehovah to destroy this entire world system, with no part of it ever to be restored? Perhaps some feel as Abraham felt about Sodom and Gomorrah, that if only 50, or 45, or 30, or 20, or even 10 righteous persons could be found out there in the world, then "the Judge of all the earth" should not sweep it all away. (Genesis 18:23-33) But the prophetic word makes it plain that Satan's world is unrighteous from top to bottom and that it will be completely wiped out! (Jeremiah 25:31-33; Zephaniah 3:8) The only flesh saved out of that "great tribulation" will be, as Jesus himself stated, the dedicated "flesh" of his chosen anointed ones and of their sheeplike companions [non-anointed JWs]. No others are counted righteous in Jehovah's sight"—Watchtower, 15 November 1983, p.24

"Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ, truly want all kinds of people to have the opportunity to learn Bible truth. God's Word can do more than help individuals to stop being vandals right now. It can motivate them to make further progress in applying divine principles. As a result, they become members of an international brotherhood known for cleanness and good manners, the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In harmony with Ephesians 4:24, these sincere Christians have 'put on the new personality which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty.' Soon the world will be filled with such people because these will be the only ones who will survive and live forever.-Compare Luke 23:43."—Watchtower 15 June 1999. Central 23:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

He's so cute, saying that like it's true or something.Tommstein 19:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Sockpuppet check

I was asked to investigate allegations of the use of sockpuppetry related to this article. Here are the results of my investigation: Retcon (talk · contribs), Missionary (talk · contribs), Netministrator (talk · contribs), Steven Wingerter (talk · contribs), Satrap (talk · contribs), IP Law Girl (talk · contribs), and Tomnstein (talk · contribs) are all pretty certainly being controlled by the same person. The others listed in the original request all appear to be distinct individuals. I am somewhat concerned about there being both a IP Law Girl and a IP law girl as that suggests impersonation; the same can be said of Tomnstein (impersonating user:Tommstein). It is my recommendation that the editor using the above group of sockpuppets choose one account and use it to the exclusion of the others. The impersonation accounts should be blocked indefinitely, but I would like an uninvolved admin to investigate these accounts to determine which is the original and which the impersonation before deciding which one to block. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC), amended 14:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's to hoping that it is not determined that I am in fact impersonating Tomnstein.Tommstein 19:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

IP_law_girl and IP_Law_Girl are the same person, but it's hardly sockpuppetting. She edited on only one day with the capitalized version of her name, and the rest of her edits come from the lower-case version. In any case, she is not trying to sockpuppet straw-man anything. Tomnstein doesn't seem to have made any contributions at all, so I don't know where this accusation has any merit either. I cannot speak as to Netministrator (talk · contribs), Satrap (talk · contribs), or Steven Wingerter (talk · contribs), but I highly doubt that they are either IP Law Girl (talk · contribs)/IP law girl (talk · contribs) or Tommstein (talk · contribs). - CobaltBlueTony 14:36, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

And on what do you base those 'high doubts' other than them being of your same religion?Tommstein 19:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Let me be clear on this: IP Law Girl (talk · contribs) is unquestionably a sockpuppet of Retcon (talk · contribs); furthermore, this editor edits from a different part of the country than does IP law girl (talk · contribs). Thus IP law girl and IP Law Girl are almost certainly not the same person, and one of them is quite likely an impersonator. This is based on server security logs (which I, as an administrator with CheckUser rights, have access to). The basis for the allegation that Tomnstein (talk · contribs) is a sockpuppet of Retcon (talk · contribs) is that Tomnstein was created using one of the IP addresses that Retcon (talk · contribs) customarily edits from (specifically, 67.166.40.198); this does not show up as a contribution but does appear in the server security logs. All of the sockpuppets identified above were identified on the basis of server security evidence, and not specifically on any analysis of contributions. If you prefer to have my conclusions verified, ask one of the other six users with CheckUser rights. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:21, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

TO CLARIFY: I am IP_law_girl (talk · contribs) and I have NEVER edited using a capitalized version of my user name. I have no earthly idea why I was impersonated. (and rather badly I might add, "my interests are IP's??? "cosmetics"??? WHAT IN THE WORLD? This is clearly a person who must think IP stands for iPods or something? Good grief!) I do not wish to start an edit war here, just wanted to confirm Kelly's findings that I am not the same person as my impersonator, I have NEVER created another account/sockpuppet for myself called IP_Law_Girl (talk · contribs) or any other user ID for that matter and I am not an "IP" and "cosmetic" loving "tomgirl"! (although I do use cosmetics....and if you have any that you want to have patented, let me know! ;-) ha-ha!) IP law girl 02:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I too found "My interests include IP's" hilarious (for the sake of those that don't know, IP stands for Intellectual Property, hence IP law girl's talk of patents at the end of her edit).Tommstein 21:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, careful there Tommstein, you’re giving off some sort of air of civility between the two of us.....this could wreak havoc on the earth's atmospheric pressure and cause an island to become decimated somewhere in the South Pacific! ;-) Seriously though, thanks for the clarification, I often forget that those outside the IP world don't always appreciate our patent geek humor. IP law girl 20:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

We were uncivil? When were we uncivil? I remember fireworks flying with Retcon/Missionary/insert-other-sockpuppets-here, but I don't really remember us two arguing (not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't remember). I'm actually in the computer world, but with the BS patent situation in said world, I know more about patents and abuse of patents than I wish I did. And about the two other main heads of IP (in my computerized opinion), copyright and trademark (are trade secrets the only other head?).Tommstein 23:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You know for someone who seems to remember most everything said by others, (at least when you take issue/offense with the things said) you have an awfully short memory for things that you say. ;-) I forgive you that though; it's indigenous to your gender. (NOTE TO SENSITIVE EDITORS: that is a joke to Tomm and not to be construed as male-bashing so please don't start an edit war here) Yeah, I'd say some incivility has passed between us but nothing that I'd cry over. Anyway, as to your question; IP categories really only encompass Patents, Trademarks and Copyrights, Trade secrets are not Intellectual Property like the other 3 and to prosecute infringement of trade secrets would really be more of a civil matter. If you have any other questions about this subject, ask me on my talk page since this isn't the Jehovah's Witnesses/Intellectual Property Law page. :) IP law girl 02:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I need to make a correction to the above as I don't think that I originally got the thrust of your question. There is a lot of overlap with Trade Secrets and the other IP categories but technically Trade Secrets are Intellectual Property however there is not a specific agency that oversees the prosecution for trade secrets, such as the USPTO. So the basic answer to your question is yes, there are only the 4 in IP. Hope that makes more sense, as I was originally focusing on the "abuse" or infringement aspect of your post. IP law girl 02:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

When I see "IP", I always think "Internet Protocal", as in TCP/IP... MCalkins 07:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware of the level of your security and admin capabilities, and was not calling your integrity into question in that aspect. It seems to me that Retcon "has some issues," and I intend to address them within Wikipedia so that accusations against JWs being secretive can be dissuaded. I appreciate your efforts and dilligence in this. Respectfully, CobaltBlueTony 15:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

This all from a guy that went to some lengths to defend Retcon/Missionary, after my page exposed them and they confessed.Tommstein 19:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

CobaltBlueTony you need to learn to stop being so naïve. Tom and I suspected most of those sock puppets above, but I was shocked to see even more! At least that has confirmed my gut instinct/sixth sense is always right, and thank goodness it's still working fine, and you can see I was not paranoid when I listed many of those bogus IDs not long ago. But, CobaltBlueTony, you really need to give up this compulsive urge to defend others just because they are JWs, as you are doing massive damage to your religion, as the posters here are not the only ones to see these pages, and you defending the indefensible just makes you (personally and as a claimed "representative of Jehovah") look all the more unreasoning, biased and dishonest. I respect you when you argue honestly, and we have our differences, but all this underhand shit is despicable and well below the belt, even I'm shocked to see a JW doing that kind of stuff. It's bad enough when they lie in private, but to do it here as a Jehovah's Witness representative has done your religion a good deal of damage, and you would be well suited to distance yourself from this person before you worsen the situation.

Your Witness "brother" has some serious personal issues with reality and maybe you can help him before he does far more damage than good. What made me shake my head even more was his latest admittance here, saying "sorry to IP Girl" when he is IP Law Girl! He still doesn't grasp the problem; also, his problem likening himself to saint Peter were just more conceited insults to Bible characters. That kind of lying behaviour is only seen in compulsive liars, who are often so ingrained in their habit they totally fail to see the difference between reality and lies, as the lines have become so blurred. Mind you, Tom and I have been warning about this mentality in Jehovah's Witnesses for ages, here at least all can see we were not just making this stuff up, it's here in its full ugliness for all too see. Maybe we should make an article on the main JW pages about religious honesty and "Theocratic Warfare?" I hope you Tony, are gong to condemn Retcon and his multiple personality disorder the same as you would another religion when caught with its members pants down, lying like Satan himself had taught him. Regards. Central 00:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Tony, while I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt, clearly in this case RetCon/etc. has been very dishonest in his dealings and apologies, and is yet to fully come clean about the situation.

Central, please don't take the actions of one JW as an excuse to denigrate JWs. This is not the place to do so. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 01:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Konrad, I would have had a lot more respect for Tony if he had not consistently tried to blindly defend the actions of his fellow Jehovah's Witness when they were clearly out of order. To be honest I am surprise Tony did what he did and didn't see the consequences of defending someone who was doing very sly and deceptive things. Tony chose to try and cover-up for Reton, so it's understandable that he has to take some of the flack. Also, this mentality is not unique here, I've seen it hundreds of times with Jehovah's Witnesses, and one only has to see how their organization handles their own actions when they are negative or false to see where Jehovah's Witnesses get this habit and mentality. Again, this is not remotely unique to this website or incident, just normally they have enough intelligence to be a bit more discreet with it. Central 11:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It's probably not so much denigrating them as it is a natural consequence of first pointing out repeatedly their "theocratic warfare" policies (i.e. condoning lying and deceiving), and then seeing such behavior illustrated in full, both by Retcon/Missionary/etc. and by his fellow Witnesses that quickly charged to his defense and continue defending the indefensible.Tommstein 19:29, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

What's the procedures here? Once this is settled can the poster return? I thought some of the edits by Steven Wingerter to be beneficial to the project. Is there a way to resolve this and then go on? Dtbrown 21:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment

I think it would be best for all involved to give Missionary/Retcon (I will use Retcon because it is the oldest of the accounts) a chance to redeem himself, and for all parties to terminate the inquisition against him. Using a sockpuppet or changing to a different account to escape unwanted criticism is permitted at Wikipedia. If his actions had been limited to that, I would not have responded to Tommstein's request at all as an ill-founded request. However, what led me to respond were two factors: one, that Retcon had fraudulently attempted to mislead people into believing he and Missionary were different people, and two, that he created at least one impersonation account, impersonating a person who he was clearly at odds with.

In any case, Retcon has acknowledged and apologized for his inappropriate acts; Wikipedia's "assume good faith" policy all but requires to accept his apology and move on. So let's please do so. I'd especially call on Tommstein and Central to lay off the rhetoric; it will not help defuse the situation. Personal attacks (such as Central calling Retcon a "compulsive liar") are neither helpful nor welcomed. There is bad blood on both sides of this issue, and frankly I'd like to see y'all work this out on your own with civility, rather than escalating the situation to the point that intervention by the Arbitration Committee is required. Kelly Martin (talk) 01:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Kelly, Calling someone a compulsive liar is technically correct if they have lied compulsively and habitually and we have clear evidence of. But, to keep the peace I will refrain from using such provocative language, but you must understand some here are very angry at the level of underhand sly deception used to try and win, manipulate and sabotage an argument, and all orchestrated by Retcon and his fantasy characters, and to add insult to injury we have had our intelligence insulted by his constant attempts to hide this clear reality. Thanks for your comment; I will not use that label anymore. Central 11:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It's always easier to tell the wronged to get Alzheimer's and forget they were repeatedly wronged when you're not one of said wronged.Tommstein 19:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Though the rhetoric is inappropiate, it's understandable. I've been in Tommstein's situation myself and it's hard to control oneself while the other person indulges in socketpuppetry. __earth 11:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

__earth, Retcon alleges that the abusive behavior of Tommstein and Central was the catalyst from which he decided to defend himself with sockpuppets, originally unaware of the Wikipedia policy. It obviously exacerbated the situation especially when he initially denied doing it, but this behavior did not start it. It had been started long before that. - CobaltBlueTony 17:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

He can allege whatever he wants, no one made him do it. He came here out of the blue starting crap, and now wishes to 'blame society' and generally everyone that's not a Jehovah's Witness for his actions. Ain't gonna fly. He was just one in a long line of Witnesses trying to start crap with non-Witnesses here.Tommstein 22:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I've heard it all now! CobaltBlueTony said: "the abusive behavior of . . . Central was the catalyst from which he decided to defend himself with sockpuppets". Are you joking or just a malicious liar like your Jehovah's Witness best buddy Retcon|Missionary and all the others IDs he faked? I gave him no abuse, you just don't get it. Even when he was lying like the devil you were there to defend him all the way, lies and all, you are still doing it now with yet more trash about me supposedly "abusing" him. You JWs just can't resist the urge to make up lies and red-herring diversions at any and every opportunity; you really give a clear picture of a despicable religion that teaches its members no moral scruples at all. I see you also hypocritically made no comment on the unwarranted abuse I got from one of Retcon|Missionary's fake IDs, that being IP Law Girl. Here is some ad hominem abuse I had to put up with:1

"If Central were to spew his anti-JW message, . . .he would be called an anti-Semite; . . .a racist. . . a misogynist, you get my drift? . . If you don't like it then then go isolate yourself from society in some secluded place and become a hermit. ….er uh but then you would still just be labeled as a "hermit"…..a maladjusted, anti-social, recluse/hermit. ha-ha" IP law girl 18:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Where were you when your JW multi-ID buddy was abusing like this? Conspicuous by your silence. If you forgot, that was the day he was exposed as he stupidly put the same IP address in two different names and then tried to change them back after. CobaltBlueTony, you need to get a grip, you would have been wiser to keep your mouth shut and keep out of this, but now you have shown your true colours, that you are just the same as Retcon|Missionary, and all you can do is play the "it's not his fault for his own chosen actions", like he is some demon possessed robot. You are officially at the bottom of my respect list. Yet again, we see the typical trait of truth dodging Jehovah's Witnesses who will stoop to the lowest levels to try and make their religion look good. Yet more "theocratic warfare". I truly hope the public take note of this trait in Jehovah’s Witnesses. Central 19:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I was not speaking to you. Further, I was not presenting my own viewpoint, but that of Retcon. I refrain from defending his actions further because his approach was unacceptable, and inappropriate for Wikipedia. As to the timing of your abusiveness, condescending tone, and other all-out attacks on Witnesses and JW Wikipedians, my memory is rather clear on the fact that you have been "at it" for a long time before the appearance of Retcon/Missionary.

Your immutable, spurious, and enraged rampage just now reveals your own true colors. I will let the public here determine the extent to which you are a cooperative and academically viable editor. Your message, your approach, and your overall demeanor makes many others uncomfortable, and not just JW editors. You are making participation in this process undesireable for anyone who does not share your angry rhetoric. As such, your ability to provide NPOV edits becomes highly questionable. - CobaltBlueTony 20:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

1. The CONFIDENTIAL:_FOR_EARTH'S_EYES_ONLY tag must have gotten lost somewhere.
2. You lie about what you said. Look at it again. The first sentence was Retcon's viewpoint, the rest was all you.
3. You seem to have somehow gained the mistaken assumption that the apparent inability of Witnesses to be NPOV not only magically makes such POV NPOV, but doesn't make participation undesirable for other editors.Tommstein 22:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Better idea: let's all talk to everyone at the same time and not wait for anyone else to respond before we chime in with our own highly esteemed opinions. That's much more productive.
2. All me, yes, that whole other sentence, which totally overpowers the first sentence. Camels through needles' eyes, Tomm.
3. This "apparent inability" seems only apparent to you and Central. I'd like independent corroboration (sp?) on that, before you make subtle suggestions that you speak for "everyone else", a faux pas you so graciously counseled me on once before.

- CobaltBlueTony 16:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

1. OK, I'll start waiting a week to see if you want to change your comments after having posted them before responding.
2. You are correct, we should ignore the last two of the three total sentences you wrote.
3. You are again correct, all the rest of the edits on the page besides mine and Central's are a figment of my imagination.Tommstein 16:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the deal with these 'sock puppeteers'? Are they so gutless that they have to hide their identity and/or so insecure that they have to invent people who agree with them? Grow up people!--Jeffro77 14:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's just one person. However, I have to read around to see if he's admitted to all of them. - CobaltBlueTony 18:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

They subscribe to the idea that 'if your argument is untenable, pretend there's a bunch of people on your side' (like that would somehow make the untenable tenable). Unfortunately, given Wikipedia's process of 'fact by popular vote of whoever's around', which is a good reason to not trust a word one reads here, such a strategy can be effective. This is why Wikipedia should really make it easier to do sockpuppet checks, instead of having to rely on one of the 'holy seven' that have such permissions, most of which ignore the requests anyway. I've made a proposal of how this could be done without revealing any 'private' information (not that I think IP addresses are necessarily private when you're posting in public) on some talk page somewhere (the sockpuppet one I'm thinking, or maybe the vandalism one if not that one).Tommstein 21:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Disappearance of quotes.watchtower.ca

What happened to http://quotes.watchtower.ca? When did it go offline? --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 05:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's offline or if this is a temporary situation. This has happened before. I started noticing it today. Since it is not clear what has happened, I thought it best to put up mirror links in the Wikipedia article. Dtbrown 05:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

For those interested, Quotes has been shut down permanently according to the settlement of the lawsuit WTB&S brought against Peter Mosier. See http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/104279/1.ashx A very sad day, brothers and sisters. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 09:15, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Not all-sad Konrad, as this will more than likely backfire on the Watch Tower and Governing Body due to the publicity it will create, and why such a big money making organization (over $950 million a year tax free), has to threaten and crush one small ex-member for quoting their free literature. There are also many mirror sites out there that will just proliferate even more, and grow. If one gets threats, they will just stop, and then mushrooms into half a dozen more on new servers. Before you know it the controlling Watch Tower's Governing Body will be incapable of keeping up with sources, and the deluge of accurate information about them and their history will be made public more and more, freeing many from the lies they have been told by the organization. The Watch Tower's fear of being accurately quoted will now demonstrate to many current JWs that the organization has a great deal to hide, and will cause some to investigate more and find out that truth, so it's not all bad news. For JWs reading this, look at the January 2006 Watchtower mags, and see how paranoid the organization is getting about the Internet, and what you might find out by doing a little research into the "channel of God". Interestingly see how the scriptures say the opposite to the Watch Tower. The Bible says nothing can ruin your faith if it's true and based on a real foundation, rather than a man made one, no mention of "except the internet" here in Romans 8:37–39 Central 18:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Copy? Did someone say they needed a copy? Get your fresh copies here! http://www.savefile.com/files/2613690. Kiss my ass, Watch Tower.Tommstein 20:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

What church in America ISN'T 501-(c)(3)? Is it so wrong that we have equal tax rights? They're hiding info from every Jehovah's Witness alright, that's why they distrubite to every Jehovah's Witness a yearly cd-rom that contains EVERY WT article, EVERY Awake article, EVERY book, tract, pamphlet, and yearbook since 1950, and EVERY KM since 1970; a cd-rom which also includes a comprehensive word, text, phrase search function.Duffer 21:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Correction, they distribute altered copies of their publications.Tommstein 20:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, let's not start a discussion of this, which would undoubtedly become long and heated. I was simply alerting those interested as to the situation. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:57, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, JWs deserve to have equal tax rights. The real value of a site like "Quotes" was not in quoting more recent stuff since 1970. It was quotes from earlier WT sources which are harder to come by which demonstrated the value of the "Quotes" site. Duffer, does the WT CD-ROM have the 1960s WTs and Awakes? Just curious, I don't know as I don't have one. Dtbrown 03:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I was just responding to Central's prejudice not to the actual topic. The cd-roms contain all WTs back to 1950, and all Awake and KMs back to 1970, along with the books, pamphlets, etc.. I don't see why anything beyond 1950 would be important. If it's still taught, it will be in the newer WTs, if not, then.. what would anyone need it for anyways? Duffer 09:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Translation: Stuff that old could embarass us, as 'God's self-declared channel.'Tommstein 20:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

There is much value in having access to the older material. It been recommended by the Watchtower Society itself for Witnesses to study information from the "older publications" (eg w57 15 May pg 313). More importantly, some previously published information by the Society has been changed in reprints, such as measurements of the pyramids pointing to 1914 in Studies in the Scriptures, and references to the 'end of the system' in 1975. The Quotes site faithfully indicated such revisionism, and it is unprincipled for the Society to deny that things have been changed by censoring the site.--Jeffro77 10:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Jeffro77, you can download the entire Quotes website content here if you are interested. Just click on "Download the entire website for mirroring", and you will get a Zip file of 15.7MB, which contains most of the old site. Central 19:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It appears that this site has also been expunged from history to make way for "new light". Thanks for the alternate download location Tommstein :) --Jeffro77 01:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Much obliged. I downloaded Central's version, and I have uploaded it to the following address: http://www.savefile.com/files/9033110. These stupidasses can try to fight technology all they want, undoubtedly pissing away some welfare widow's money that she gave for the "Worldwide Work" (of paying armies of lawyers to sue individuals), but they shall not prevail. The Internet is the great equalizer.Tommstein 06:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm currently downloading that too. I just posted another copy, which I got from yet another person. Two days, two separate copies posted in less than an hour. Now, time to raid every free webhost on the Internet.Tommstein 20:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I will try another download site, as it doesn't unzip and open in the same format, or maybe it's my PC who knows? Is it ok with your PC? Central 21:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

If you mean the file I uploaded, it does in fact unzip here when I download it. If you mean the one you provided a link to, it also unzips fine (so really, these two sentences could have been condensed into five words, but where's the fun in that?). I assume that Jeffro77 would have said something too if 'my' version hadn't worked for him. I'm fixing to upload the version you linked to too and put the link here (or rather, slightly above, in response to Jeffro77). These Watch Tower bitches didn't kill the site, they killed a URL, because now there's gonna be 8,000 copies of the site in every corner of the Internet. Even that seems to have been beyond their predictive skills.Tommstein 05:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey Tom, I just found this site, you can download the entire Watchtower CD ROM for those who don't have it, plus the Elders confidential manual! LOL. Not sure how long the link will last; it's a very slow download site, probably half the world is trying to download now. Central 00:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

That's handy. I'm downloading the 2004 CD as we speak, since I only have the 1999 (I think) version. Their copy of Quotes also seems to be as up-to-date as the day it closed; do you know where they got their copy from?Tommstein 07:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This newer version of archived Quotes had advice on downloading, and it works. The link they give to a free download program, works as I've used that one before for downloading different sites, and it's free. The Quotes mirror size is 42MB, and would take about 40 mins with broadband depending on who else is using the site. If anyone wants to download the whole Quotes site I recommend you do it soon, as no one knows how long that site will be up for. Central 12:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey Central, do a WHOIS search on that website. Look where the owner lives. China. Fricking China. As in country-where-Jehovah's-Witnesses-are-an-illegal-entity China. Them filing a complaint in China would be like the Mafia taking someone to court here. I guess this is where the story ends. We win, Watch Tower loses. They can't even try to have domain name ownership assigned to them, because the word "reexamine" has nothing to do with them. Life is good, my friend, life is good. I have a feeling we're going to be using this new website a lot. Heck, it's even offering copies of the CD, the child custody brochure (which I'm sure lawyers for non-Witness parents around the world will be besides themselves about), all kinds of good stuff, which would be against copyright law anywhere near the United States, including Quotes. But what are they gonna do about it now? Nothing. Unless crying counts. This is another example of 'careful what you wish for'. Same website still around, only with thousands of pissed off people now. Shutting down Quotes was just another in a long line of brilliant moves. That took what, like three days?Tommstein 11:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL, that's wonderful! Gave me a good laugh. Those old men at the Watch Tower are not the brightest bunch are they? Took them eight years to close down the original Quotes site, now they are championing 'freedom of speech' in a way I bet they never dreamt! DOH! They are so stupid thinking they can stop freedom of information just like that with their big lawyers. Now they have opened up a Pandora's box that cannot be stopped, as site after site opens and information multiplies out of their control. LOL, it's all good! Central 12:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

PS. Tom, have you seen the name of whom it's registered to? LOL! "C. T. Russell and Ass", Organization: "Botchtower" LOL! Central 12:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I did in fact see that. It was funny as heck.Tommstein 04:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear, Duffer is caught lying again. He said: "they distribute to every Jehovah's Witness a yearly cd-rom that contains . . . EVERY Awake article, EVERY book, tract, pamphlet, and yearbook since 1950." Now Duffer has backtracked as he's been questioned by Dtbrown about his statement of "fact". So Duffer, where did the "EVERY Awake article, book, tract, and pamphlet since 1950" disappeared to? Oh yeah, that was "theocratic warfare" I guess, or blatant lying to the rest of humanity from you. So where is the Aid to Bible Understanding book, their biggest comprehensive book on all their pharisaic detailed doctrines and beliefs? Funny how that one is totally missing from the Watch Tower's CD, and the Elders book Pay Attention to Yourself and the Flock? And the JWs handbook, Organized to do Jehovah's Will, and the first editions of the Live forever book, the Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, the All scripture book, the Reasoning book, the School guidebook, and the Watch Tower's earlier versions of the Bible? Where are they for research? They are post 1950, where are they? And of course, all they've ever printed prior to 1950 is conveniently missing. That's why Quotes was so good, as it had a whole range of literature right from the beginnings to the latest stuff. Thank goodness for the internet, as it's out there now, and will continue to grow so the public can do some proper research into this religion, instead of taking the less than truthful words of many JWs, as we see on these boards, with the latest examples from Duffer.

Duffer said: "If it's still taught, it will be in the newer WTs, if not, then.. what would anyone need it for anyways?" Well derrr, why would you need a Bible, as that book is at least 1900+ years old? Your own religion teaches it's from God and He never changes, so it will always be relevant, they say the same things about their "truths" when they publish them and expect all JWs to accept them as these are from "God's channel". The reason old material is needed—as you know well—is to research the organization that JWs claim is "divinely used as a unique channel", and "guided by Holy Spirit". By looking at what they have taught as "divine truths revealed to them by God" in the past, those researching can see how "divined truths" become old apostate ramblings and false doctrines if they were taught now, demonstrating that they were nothing more than the machinations of men's minds all along, and nothing whatsoever to do with God. You also fail to see the irony of your statement about modern literature, because in five, ten or fifteen years all the current literature and teachings will also be 'old literature' and old doctrines, and what then? The "new truth" of 2020 replaces the "old truths" of 2006, or as JWs put it "old light", and shows the older stuff to be yet more lies and false doctrines, and it goes on and on indefinitely just as it has the past 120 years. I'm surprised JWs have not had the order from the Governing Body to destroy any literature over two years old. So much for "God never changing", your Governing Body seems positively senile if you look at the record of this "divine channel of truths from Jehovah" over the Watch Tower's history. PS. The Watch Tower do not "distribute to every Jehovah's Witness a yearly cd-rom", why are you making up these totally false statements? JWs have to specially order the CD from the literature counter in your church, they are not handed out at all. You also ignore that the public are not supposed to get their hands on these CDs, so the public have no access to this information, that is another reason the internet is such a good place, especially the Quotes site, which I'm sure will mushroom more and more to ones like Duffer's chagrin. Central 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

"..along with the books, pamphlets, etc.." Did you not actually read what I said before posting? You're only partially correct about the "Aid to Bible Understanding" books. They were replaced in 1989 by the "Insight on the Scriptures" volumes, an updated and more comprehensive look at our doctrine than "Aid", but you can likely find a copy of the Aid to Bible Understanding from asking around your local KH or even in KH libraries. You're right "Pay Attention" and "Organized" are not on the CD-rom (I never noticed). I must have been lying. It's inconceivable that a Jehovah's Witness can be wrong: "It must be "theocratic warfare" when a JW is wrong, but when I'm wrong, I was simply mistaken." Right. The CD-Roms are handed out, if there is not enough, they order more. So.. we've covered your "theocratic warfare", hypocracy, and prejudice, lets talk about your bias. What religion on this planet has not undergone doctrinal change? How many of those religions believe they are correct? Duffer 06:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear, you are at it again! Duffer, you said: "You're only partially correct about the Aid to Bible Understanding books". 1. It's a book, not books. 2. I was 100 percent correct, as the whole point was about having access to the older original literature and doctrines, not some newly updated hacked and revised version. How can anyone see the differences if the older version magically disappears? You go on: "I never noticed. . . .I was simply mistaken." No Duffer, you were clearly lying. If you were not sure of your information you could have simply put it as "I think all the old publications might be on the Watch Tower's CD", but you chose to shout and say "a yearly cd-rom that contains EVERY WT article, EVERY Awake article, EVERY book, tract, pamphlet, and yearbook since 1950", you didn't leave any squeeze room by repeatedly stating as fact that "EVERY" piece of literature was on the CD. You also left no excuse for checking your own religions literature by admitting this is: "a cd-rom which also includes a comprehensive word, text, phrase search function." Apparently so "comprehensive" you still haven't worked out how it simply works, or you can't be bothered to even try to check your facts before you come shouting them on here like they are totally proven without question. Matthew (Duffer), you need to understand that you have done this tactic several times here, and still you appear to not be learning. You can't come on to a public board and state stuff as facts, and then back down claiming "a mistake" after you've been exposed to not have any facts—but just your own opinion—and opinions that are based on very scarce research. You are just making your religion and case look more and more false and corrupt when you return with "it was a mistake not a lie" each time you get caught deliberately promoting false information as proven fact.

Your latest off-topic, straw man diversion question: "What religion on this planet has not undergone doctrinal change? How many of those religions believe they are correct?" Well Duffer, open your Bible and you will see Jesus' version of Christianity is still the same then as it is now. His words and teachings have not changed; they are still just the same. Now take a look at your religion, and see how massively it's changed, and flip-flopped, reversed, and abandoned many of its teachings and doctrines. Since when did the "faithful and discreet slave" give out "rotten food at the proper time"? God does not change and neither would his teachings, and what kind of God do you imagine you are serving by demoting Him to some imbecile that is incapable of accurately revealing truth to humans guided by His spirit? Just because the world is full of contradictory and corrupt religions, that does not make your religion any less corrupt and false, and looking at its history, false prophecy, contradictions, doctrinal reversals and gross arrogance, it would be up there in the top five most corrupt, especially for misrepresenting the Bible, and presumptuously claiming to speak in "God's name as His only channel to mankind". Central 11:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Oh no a typo, RUN! 2. I was almost entirely correct about my assertion. Nothing was specified about "past versions" of current books, that's rediculous. I was mistaken about the "Organized" and "Pay Attention" books. There's literally thousands of publications in the cd-rom, I forgot 2, I'M A LIAR! Now, you said specifically: "So where is the Aid to Bible Understanding book, their biggest comprehensive book on all their pharisaic detailed doctrines and beliefs", were you lying about the Aid book or were you merely mistaken about it, and it's subsequent replacement by the 'Insight' books? "you can't be bothered to even try to check your facts before you come shouting them on here like they are totally proven without question".. relax man. Technically it was your prejudice that started this. Specifically your snide remarks about tax-exemptions and the availability of "accurate" quotes from our own, past, literature. To answer the latest diversion, you merely beat around the bush without actually addressing my question. Modern orthodoxy is a far cry from what Jesus actually preached, you know much about past Jehovah's Witness theology but you do not know the doctrinal development of your own? That's just presumption on my part; lets be specific: What exactly do believe is the same between what Jesus taught, and your version of Christianity? We can take this to my talk page.. or yours.. or e-mail. If you want to answer, just give me a couple of your major tenets of your faith and we'll examine them in light of what Jesus taught, and the subsequent development of said tenets throughout history. Duffer 12:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

There are not "literally thousands of publications" on the Watchtower Library CD, there are approximately 290. What is ridiculous about "past versions of current books"? It would be unnecessary if there wasn't dishonest revisionism at work, but such actions make it very significant.--Jeffro77 01:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

There are approximately 1,296 WT magazines on the cd-rom, not including Awake, not including Books, KMs, Booklets, Brochures, Tracts, and the 2 Insight volumes. Duffer 04:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The Watchtower Library is indeed a useful tool, and the underappreciated slave labour that made it should be thanked. The Watchtower and Awake! magazines are released as bound volumes, and are represented as such on the CD-ROM. As such, the magazines therein are not separate publications; there are 54 Watchtower volumes and 34 Awake! volumes on the Watchtower Library CD-ROM. (In addition, there are 46 books, 35 yearbooks, 34 KM volumes, 31 tracts, 28 brochures, 18 booklets, 2 Insight volumes, 2 Indexes, 1 bible and a partridge in a pear tree*. However, the veracity of the Society's reproductions of its prior publications is suspect because they have been known to make alterations to what has been printed, as I indicated previously. *Partridge and pear tree sold separately. PC not included.--Jeffro77 14:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL! "A partridge in a pear tree", classic! You could reduce the list more because the The Watchtower is one publication, not many. The issues are just issues, and not different publications, just like Time magazine is one publication, not many. It may have multiple issues, but it's still just one publication. So all the Awake! and Watchtower magazine make just two publications, this makes Duffer's wild statement of "thousands of publications" look even more premature. Plus the fact that some of the most important ones are missing from the CD. Central 17:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Duffer says: "Nothing was specified about 'past versions' of current books, that's ridiculous." More lies, you stated "a yearly cd-rom that contains EVERY WT article, EVERY Awake article, EVERY book, tract, pamphlet, and yearbook since 1950" If you are having a hard time understating the word "every" I suggests you buy a dictionary, rather than call it ridiculous. You then say "I forgot 2". There are more than two in my list, and those in the list are main books, not some minor pamphlet, so should be included on the CD. Duffer you need to learn to read, I know very well the Insight books were a new revised, remodelled, and altered version of the book, Air to Bible understanding. Are you deliberately being facetious or just stupid? The point (for the third time) is the older books in their original form are not there (as you claimed "EVERY" book was), and they need to be there to see how they have changed in relation to newer versions. If you cannot grasp that, then you need help. You then lose the plot with your next comment: "Technically it was your prejudice that started this. Specifically your snide remarks about tax-exemptions." Yeah, me making a comment about how rich and powerful the Watch Tower Society in persecuting ex-members with lawsuits somehow forced you to lie and make up crap about what's on the Watch Tower's CD? Eh? Where do you get your nutty ideas from? Ever heard of personal responsibility? You sound just like that JW con-artist Retcon/Missionary blaming all others for his actions and refusing to get a grip of reality.

You inevitably cannot resists the straw man sidetrack: "Modern orthodoxy is a far cry from what Jesus actually preached" What? Who said anything about "Modern orthodoxy"? I spoke of the Bible then and now, and Jesus' teachings being the same teachings, or are you now trying to drag the stupid churches into this? Undoubtedly you are. Duffer, your desperation is showing. You go on deeper into off topic and inaccurate ground: "but you do not know the doctrinal development of your own?" My own? What are you talking about? Oh yeah, silly me, you are in fantasy mode grasping at straws for some kind of ad hominem you hope to find, correct? What does amuse me is you have already inadvertently admitted that your religion is false. Up the page you said, "What religion on this planet has not undergone doctrinal change?" linking yourself with them, as if "we are all in the same boat", you then forget that your religion teaches all others are false religions, so if yours is the same, i.e., changing doctrines all the time, then you must by your own default, be like them and also be false. Did you not see that connection when you made it? Funny really. What I believe is not relevant to this JW page, as it's about what JWs teach via the writings and doctrines of their Governing Body. Central 18:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

PS. I have put a note on your Talk page with a letter to the Governing Body from the Watch Tower's chairman's committee that you might find interesting. I agree with the points it makes that contradict the traditional Watch Tower Society's stance, as you seem so interested in what I believe. Central 20:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

You know the old saying of 'better to stay quiet and be thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt?' Some people here, to not name any names, seem to have the opposite philosophy, fire now and check whether they made an ass of themselves later. And they seem to be faithful adherents to their philosophy too.Tommstein 21:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Someone asked a good question about the CD-ROM: Where is the "Aid to Bible Understanding" book? about...two meters from me I would say. Not on the CD-ROM, but to be quite honest, I'm glad. You see, if every edition ever printed of every book were on there, I literally would not be able to use it on my computer at all. There would be no sense in that, since, lol, that would defeat the purpose entirely! It is available though, to individual publishers, not just a select few. Of course, there is no reason for the elders' reference books to be on the CD-ROM, since they are to direct the elders in the work they do - they are specifically directed to the elders. If you wrote a letter to a family, and also included a personal letter to an individual member, would you expect the letter to be advertised also to the entire family? Not usually. However, although I've never had need to look it up, I do believe there are copies of the book in the Kingdom Hall libraries - which, by the way, are open to all, not just to elders.

Again, similarly, older printings of publications, and publications that have been updated and replaced - such as the "Truth that Leads to Eternal Life" which was replaced by "Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life" and last year updated to "What Does the Bible Really Teach" are not only available (not to mention in the possession of many publishers), but often we are encouraged to feature them in our door-to-door ministry work. Certainly, if something were to be hidden, that would not be the way to do it!

Also, the "Organized to Do Jehovah's Will" book was mentioned. There is a very logical reason why this is not on the CD-ROM - and again I have to laugh! It was only released last year, in the summer of 2005. The newest CD-ROM available is still the 2004 edition, so it would make sense that it's not in there! I'm not trying to put anyone down in laughing, since it is just a mistake. But you have to admit, that claim could be worth blushing over (in a humorous way) or at least chuckling at.

There are a lot of allegations about Jehovah's Witnesses, some against the WBTS itself, some against our religion as a whole, and many based on individuals. By individuals of course I do not mean that they have no merrit because it was only one person. I mean that there are some Jehovah's Witnesses who do not fully follow bible counsel, or have not completely applied it in their lives. Of course, by that definition, it could encompass everyone, since no one is perfect. Still, there are those whose actions may lend to a bad reputation! Most of the allegations, however, seem to be rumors that perhaps had some merrit when they began - or perhaps not, as can be the case with rumors! - but of course have grown with time and travel.

Personally, I find it very disturbing to be told that I (or rather Jehovah's Witnesses on a whole, and thereby through extension, myself personally or at least those around me) am a dishonest, manipulative person, and that I seek to spread lies simply to agree with myself or others of my religion. This is especially difficult for me as this is a website where anyone can say anything - you have no reason to believe me personally, and I can give you no real proof since all I can give on a website are words. Yet I am not that kind of person, and of all the Jehovah's Witnesses I know - which is quite a few since not only have I moved around some, I have also travelled - very few, if any, are really like that. Those who display traits such as dishonesty, or selfishness, are usually quite easily spotted among other Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know how many Jehovah's Witnesses the authors of those posts know, but sadly it would seem you have mostly been able to sample only the more distasteful bunch.

--Restarz 04:45, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the CD could probably be set up to give you options such as 'only show publications after a certain date' and 'only show publications that haven't been updated to newer versions,' and then you could probably have all the publications you wanted on there without giving you trouble. When I was a Witness, I in fact wrote the Society and volunteered to write a new version of the program for them for free, mainly because I use Linux, but they declined. Oh well.

About your last paragraph though, I don't think anyone is going to assume you're up to something, unless you give ample reason to believe otherwise, like, say, working up a long history of doing things like jumping up and down screaming that a pile of references doesn't in fact exist or doesn't say what anyone with basic literacy in English can easily verify that it says. Seriously, what other logical option is there to explain when things have reached Duffer1 levels? It would be politically incorrect to outright call him an idiot, or to say that he demonstrates signs of having an IQ comparable to most people's shoe size, so one is left to simply let the infamous policies speak for themselves, with their implication that his stuff is willful, instead of something that he can't help. Have no fear though, as long as you don't resort to otherwise-unexplainable shenanigans like those mentioned above, I don't think anyone is going to accuse you of being a liar.Tommstein 03:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

That's not necessary Tomm, that is extremely offensive, Duffer 06:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The CD-ROM is a special order item. Those who want it order it, it's not just distributed to all Witnesses automatically. As to "Organized to Do Jehovah's Will", it is a special book, and probably won't be in the CD-ROM, just like "Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry" wasn't.

The Bible condemns dishonesty, and anyone who diliberately lied would be disobeying the Bible. Our organization is actually completely honest. I find it unimaginable that so many people here accuse our organization of dishonesty. Michael 20:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

New editing guidelines

As per the discussion about quotes, I have added the following guidelines to the project page:

• State that "The Watchtower says..." rather than "Jehovah's Witnesses believe...". This avoid difficulties in different interpretations of what the WT is saying; the WT statement can be interpreted by the reader, rather than by editors.
• Use the newest available reference when stating what JWs currently believe.
• Editors should not attempt to reconcile contradictory statements in JW publications, as this is original research. Simply state both statements, and allow the reader to determine how to reconcile them. For example:

"Jehovah's Witnesses publications vary on who will survive Armageddon. While The Watchtower has often stated that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot speculate on who will survive Armageddon^[1][2], it has also indicated that ...^[3][4]."

This should solve at least some of the arguments here. ;) --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 13:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Problem one is that we would probably need to tear down the entire Beliefs section and replace it with a bunch of quotes. Problem two is that someone arguing that inconvenient statements don't say what they say (cough Duffer cough) will then just argue that they haven't in fact "also indicated that" other stuff, so it shouldn't be in the article at all; it just changes what people are fighting about (slightly).Tommstein 19:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is about Jehovah's Witnesses not what JW publications may infer to non-JWs. The particular section in your example is "Beliefs and Doctrines", adding what non-JWs misread out of our literature is highly inappropriate. Duffer 03:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

You are correct, the article is about Jehovah's Witnesses, not the lies, I mean "theocratic warfare," that members want to present in public in order to make more converts.Tommstein 21:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

A discussion regarding the appropriateness of the third guideline can be found here. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Dam to burst next year on blood issue, possble news event

Baylor Universty Jornal of the Curch and State autumn 2005 release date dec, 13 2005. Is a new peer review study critical of the jw blood issue. Mainly of it's misrepresting the facts in it's literature.

more info found here [2]

P.S. Finally something good comes out of Waco,TX--Greyfox 07:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Written by an attorney.. not a doctor. I wonder what peer review will have to say about it. Duffer 07:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

That is what I think 80% of the brother ans sisters will say, but the is illrelevent. They studied the brocures and checked the facts in them and found many pertaining to the blood issue misleading. This will have more an effect on those who have familly in the group (especially those who have lost ones with a blood problem) or are thinking of joining or know someone about to join. This could also effect thier tax exempt status in the process you can not give misleading facts to your people and keep it. Oh by the way just because you are a attorney does not mean you did not consult a doctor for your study.--Greyfox 15:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Goood points, but you cannot say what they have, or have not found when you have not read the article. It will be interesting how this unfolds in the future. Duffer 00:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This also make the shutting down of quotes.watchtower.ca. all the more juicy. What were they thinking, They look like they are covering something up.--Greyfox 15:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Excerpt #2

Courts are frequently called upon to order transfusions for children of Jehovah’s Witness parents.[19] In its legal information section entitled “You Have The Right to Choose, ” the pamphlet informs parents that courts recognize parents’ rights to make medical decisions for their children:

In 1979 the U.S. Supreme Court stated clearly: “The law’s concept of the family rests on a presumption that parents possess what a child lacks in maturity, experience, and capacity for judgment required for making life’s difficult decisions . . . Simply because the decision of a parent [on a medical matter] involves risks does not automatically transfer the power to make that decision from the parents to some agency or officer of the states.”—Parham v. J.R.[20]

The same year the New York Court of Appeals rules: The most significant factor in determining whether a child is being deprived of adequate medical care . . . is whether the parents have provided an acceptable course of medical treatment for their child in light of all the surrounding circumstances. This inquiry cannot be posed in terms of whether the parent has made a ‘right’ or a ‘wrong’ decision, for the present state of the practice of medicine, despite its vast advances, very seldom permits such definitive conclusions. Nor can a court assume the role of a surrogate parent.—In re Hofbauer[21]

While these quotes are not in themselves inaccurate, the Society does not inform its readers that these particular cases do not involve minors of Jehovah’s Witnesses who need immediate, life-saving blood transfusions. Rather, Parham v. J.R. deals with the parents’ wish to obtain psychiatric help by civilly committing an uncontrollable minor contrary to the minor’s objections.[22] Moreover, the relevant facts in Parham did not involve the parents’ refusal to accept medical treatment on religious grounds. Indeed, concurring Justice Stewart wrote that a state would have constitutional grounds to preempt the parent’s decision, and defended this position by referring to a seminal case against a Jehovah’s Witness parent who mandated that her minor niece engage in selling Society magazines in violation of the state’s child labor laws.[23] In re Hofbauer deals with the parents’ choice of using nutrition instead of chemotherapy to treat Hodgkin’s disease. [24] The Hofbauer court also differentiated its facts from cases involving parents’ religious refusal of medical treatment, including a reference to a specific Jehovah’s Witness blood case, a fact which the pamphlet omitted.[25] From these examples, a clear precedent can be seen that many courts will order blood transfusions for minors over and against the parents’ wishes.[26] Thus, Jehovah’s Witness parents may be surprised to learn that precedent denies their supposed “right” to make martyrs of their children.[27]

Sourse Jornal of Church and State Baylor University Autumn 2005

Answer your questions duffer--Greyfox 15:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Excerpt #4

Summary of Survival Rates and Medical Alternatives Misrepresentations

At this point, a salient question emerges: Should the tort of misrepresentation be allowed to the victims of blood policy and their families who have come to the conclusion that the Society misrepresented the historical and medical science in its indoctrination literature? A court could conclude that each misrepresented statement is relatively insignificant. However, when taken together, the misrepresentations serve to warp the follower’s mind regarding the actual medical and historical perspective. The Society deceives its followers into thinking that blood transfusions render one’s immune system incapable of fighting cancers, when the actual link depends on the type of cancer. It builds a case that other doctors wish all surgeons would become bloodless surgeons, when in fact those doctors recognize the benefits of blood transfusions for those who are in desperate need. The Society “scares” followers into believing that accepting blood transfusions is equivalent to contracting contagious diseases, when the actual risks are one in several hundred thousand to a few million. The Society “placates” by suggesting adults and infants can tolerate low hemoglobin levels, despite medical knowledge that a healthy person has at least a one in three chance of not surviving a blood count lower than 7, with survival rates for people in high-risk groups being much lower. The Society falsely assures parents that they can legally refuse a blood transfusion for their child by citing cases that in no way substantiate such a position. The Society never reveals to its readers the actual risks of death when blood levels drop either slowly from anemia or quickly from hemorrhage. Instead, the Society gives its readers the impression that ultra low hemoglobin counts, such as 1.8, are easily survivable under the supervision of the right doctor. Only by looking at the overall effect of the Society’s literature can one determine whether there are misrepresentations that induce a follower to accept the Society’s life-threatening arguments without question.

Just in case it did not! --Greyfox 15:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

You did not post any questions. Duffer 23:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry everyone else, I am done feeding this troll.--Greyfox 02:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

But you just don't understand, he's right and the one ultimate authority about everything related to Jehovah's Witnesses, and everyone else that comes across this page is a troll for begging to differ from his authoritative, official opinions.Tommstein 04:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense at all. Duffer 04:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

oh buy the way duffer tommstein here might remember I had something removed because it was POV agaist the watchtower it gave a logical argument which I agreed with but sence we are not here to argue logic I asked for it to be removed I did not do it my self. Take a hint if your right some else will do it for and you won't have these arguments all the time. GREYFOX

The problem is, he's not right. The Witnesses here like to make grandiose, uselessly vague claims pretending everyone else is biased and they're somehow perfectly unbiased NPOV superstars, while ignoring that the history here demonstrates that the opposite is closer to the truth.Tommstein 22:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

AMEN although he bring up some thing did not know about the 1998 watchtower trying to contradict the reasoning book, unsucessfully though. see meditation below. Which he kinda shot himself in the proverbial foot. Showing that the society flip flops when it is convenient. At first I thought shot myself in the foot though dtbrown show the watchtower quote --Greyfox 23:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I've requested mediation from the Mediation Cabal

You can find my request for mediation here Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/27 12 2005 Jehovah's Witnesses. Duffer 11:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

From mediator: Several pages of talk and comment were removed from Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/27 12 2005 Jehovah's Witnessesand move to Talk:Jehovah's_Witnesses/surviving_armegeddon by SteveMc. Please keep that type of discussion off of the cabal pages. Thanks, SteveMc 00:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)