Talk:Joanna Scanlan

Best known for =

I'm just passing through, but surely Joanna is best known for Terri Coverley in The Thick of It - and she's currently in Big School. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.4.109 (talk) 10:38, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Nationality

In this edit: [1] British was changed to Welsh for this actress. Per MOS:ETHNICITY, note a, we should not change between British/Welsh without discussion and consensus on a talk page. I have put it back. However, on this occasion there may be reason to change to Welsh as the source suggests that she sees herself as Welsh, and if that is what the reliable sources say (not just this source, but generally) then it should be Welsh. Against that, it should be noted that she was not born in Wales, and neither do we have sources regarding Welsh parentage. What matters, however, is what the WP:RS say. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:57, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"Scanlan gave thanks in Welsh, "Diolch yn fawr iawn as we say in my country! BAFTA thank you so much...some stories have surprising endings don't they." and also thanked the films writer and director and the crew.

Scanlan is Welsh and learned learned Welsh during S4C's Iaith ar Daith series."

In citations from text above, Scanlan says she's Welsh, so will go ahead and make that update if this is agreeable. Titus Gold (talk) 02:12, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Source 1 and 2 are the same, and have Joanna moved to Wales from the Wirral when she was three years old and considers herself to be Welsh and to "have lived a Welsh life". Source 3 does not have anything about her being Welsh, just about learning Welsh for a show. Both sources are from Welsh online newspaper, WalesOnline. MOS:ETHNICITY says To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and consider whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by. What we have here is one UK source, a Welsh newspaper, stating, but not quoting that she considers herself Welsh. They quote her as saying she has "lived a Welsh life". Which is not the same. She also is quoted as saying "Diolch yn fawr iawn as we say in my country!" but that again does not mean she is saying she is Welsh, as there is a difference. In calling Wales her country, she says that is the country she lives in, indeed, the country she grew up in. It may also mean that this is the country she sees as being her nationality - that she is Welsh - but this quote does not establish that.

We need more than this. What do biographers say? What do a range of sources say? Do other British newspapers call her Welsh? Has she authored any articles in which she discusses the matter and how she sees herself? Do we have any direct quotes where she comes out and says she is Welsh? More is needed to put this beyond doubt. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

And just to add a quick Google survey:

• Joanna Scanlan "English actress" - 3,290 results
• Joanna Scanlan "Welsh actress" - 5,020 results
• Joanna Scanlan "British actress" - 6,490 results

Interesting The Sun has her down as all three in different articles. Raw numbers are only an indication, and bear in mind that there will be false hits in there, but based on that, there is a small preference for British. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:49, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

ITV saying she considers herself to be Welsh: https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2022-03-14/welsh-star-joanna-scanlan-named-top-actress-at-bafta-film-awards Titus Gold (talk) 03:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The Sun and google surveys are not reliable at all.

The citations I've provided suggest she is Welsh:

1. considers herself to be Welsh (no doubt here)

2. "Diolch yn fawr as they say in my country" (indicates she is Welsh)

3. "have lived a Welsh life" (indicates she is Welsh) Titus Gold (talk) 03:46, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Mother is Welsh, grown up in Welsh and learnt Welsh language as well https://uk.style.yahoo.com/joanna-scanlan-struggles-becoming-welsh-speaker-channel-4-drama-122712024.html Titus Gold (talk) 03:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

"Welsh TV star" https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/joanna-scanlan-boarding-school-did-not-give-me-skills-i-needed-for-adult-life/40460241.html Titus Gold (talk) 04:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

A certain amount of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT here. There is no point just posting the links to pages that call her a Welsh Actress. As we know, there is a rough ratio of sources calling her English, Welsh and British of 3:5:6. That is what Google tells us, and so for every 5 "Welsh Actress" articles, we can find 6 "British Actress" articles. I am not discounting that her BLP should call her Welsh out of hand based on this, but making the point that you are wasting your time posting links to ITV.com, Yahoo and the Belfast Telegraph. Newspapers and media sources are all over the shop on this point.

But this is a BLP, and so we need careful sourcing and careful consideration. It is also necessary to establish this matter with an authority or else changes will simply be reverted by the next editor who comes along. We need to know what Scanlan says herself, and we need to understand how she is treated particularly by UK reliable sources. On UK reliable sources, the very tentative conclusion points towards "British", but could be be overturned with a more thorough review. On Scanlan herself, there is a suggestion, as yet unproven, that she may prefer Welsh, which is why I bothered open this talk section.

You have 3 points above, but they are all actually the same point. You say there is no doubt she considers herself Welsh. Yet I harbour doubts. You say she says "in my country" but I addressed that already. It is not proof. You say she is quoted as saying she has "lived a Welsh life" but I addressed this too, and, to be honest, that one is a red flag to me. To me, that indicates a desire to be associated with Wales, but an inability to say she is Welsh. And nowhere has she been quoted as saying that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

If we just stick to Scanlon's actual quotes, she indicates Welsh more than any other nationality, and on the basis of probability prefers Welsh. Let's not waste time on a debate here when evidence suggests Welsh more than any other nationality. Titus Gold (talk) 13:55, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This article is a WP:BLP, and per the guidance Wikipedia must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. We don't uncritically accept what newspapers say. We need a range of sources, or clear quotations from Scanlan herself. We also don't impose on her BLP the view we want her to express. We want Scanlan to speak on Scanlan. "on the basis of probability prefers Welsh" has no place in this discussion. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

That's reasonable, but it's clear based on those citations that she considers herself Welsh. There should be sources provided to the contrary otherwise. Titus Gold (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Largely agree with @Sirfurboy here.

Per WP:UKNATIONALS the subject's individual preference can be given weight to. While none of the source's brought here state clearly she identifies as Welsh, in her own words. The ITV and WalesOnline sources do state in their words for herself to be Welsh and to "have lived a Welsh life". [2], however note this is ITV's and WalesOnline's words rather than clearly Scanlan's (the two are also worded similar, paraphrased?). A source clearly quoting her would greatly help, back up the use of "Welsh".

Welsh newspapers obviously want to emphasise Welsh identity for their Welsh readers. Learning and knowing Welsh is not an automatic qualification that someone should be described as Welsh, and assuming they do is WP:OR, as does being born in England does not mean they're automatically English, and being born in Wales does not mean they're automatically Welsh. The Yahoo source is quite interesting as Scanlan clearly discusses the importance of a Welsh identity for her mother but does not apply it to herself when only considering that source.

Cherry-picking the Belfast Telegraph is not helpful as this Bristol Post source says she's English, individual newspapers can pick and choose, Wikipedia has to analyse the general use rather than by specifically chosen sources. This international source uses British.

Although concerning the Google survey some results seem to have similar leads to Wikipedia, so those searches have to be filtered out. While British is currently used and would greatly impact results for that, has Wikipedia described her as something different in the past? If so, older articles would've used whatever term Wikipedia used then. However, using solely Google News, "British" has a small lead.

The current lead "British of Welsh descent" is fine and a great compromise. As there is no quote on the preference for Welsh by Scanlan herself, and when in doubt, "British" usually applies as a catch-all. DankJae 23:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

References