Talk:Joe Grech (snooker player)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe Grech (snooker player)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Z1720 (talk · contribs) 01:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   Please see below.

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Please see below

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   Please see below

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   See source check below

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   I'll trust that other information cannot be found on the early life and death, though if it is found I suggest adding it to the article.

   b. (focused):

   Some paragraphs could be split, see below.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Yes for the most part, minor quibbles below.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   No media in the article, did not find anything on commons.

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   See 6a

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

   See below

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

Some comments about the article on things to fix:

• I wish the lede had more information about this player, and think it should be expanded upon to include information about the Maltese English Billiards Championship.
  • Indeed, this article wasn't in as high quality as I thought it was. I've fixed up the lede somewhat. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• The second paragraph of "Rising through the ranks" has a lot of sentenced structured as "He [verb]ed the [competition name]". Try to vary the sentence structure and maybe merge some sentences together to reduce the number of words. Also, it might be possible to split that paragraph in half to make it shorter and more readable.
  • Made some changes like this. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• "He attempted to requalify through the WPBSA Qualifying School but it backfired." How/why? Can this be described in more detail?
  • Reworded. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• "After a series of setbacks, Grech emerged as the world champion at the 1997 English Billiards Amateur World Championship after defeating India's Ashok Shandilya in the final by 2895 to 2836 points." Are these different set backs than the ones just explained? If not, maybe remove that sentence starter.
  • Removed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• "He won his fourth national title during the 1997 Malta Snooker Championship which was also his first national title after a gap of 10 years. He failed to retain the title at the 1998 championship after losing to Alex Borg in the final." Needs a citation
  • I think, considering I can find very little about the individual events they aren't worth mentioning. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• In "Ups and downs" third paragraph, a lot of sentences start with "He" Try to vary the sentences.
  • Copyedited. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• "He was an integral player" This feels like an opinionated statement that probably shouldn't be in Wikivoice. I suggest changing this to "he was a member" or say who characterised him as integral.
  • Indeed, changed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• Many of the references have authors named in the link. Please include them.
  • I'll make a scan. This is particularly hard on mobile, but I'll do my best. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• All refs should have access dates.
• Ref 16 should note that the source is in Dutch
  • done Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
• Ref 17 needs a lot more information, like article title, author and access date.
  • Done Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest archiving websites using IAbot.
  • Done Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
• No plagiarism concerns
• Spot check version reviewed: [7] Ref checked with no concerns: Ref 30. Since there were lots of concerns with the ones that I checked, I hope the nominator will do another check of the article and ensure that the citations verify the info that proceeds it. Here are examples of what I found below:

• • Ref 3 only verifies until 2015, and ref 4 is a deadlink, so this verification fails. I think fixing the deadlink will solve this.
    • Dead links in of themselves aren't a problem, but I ran IABot anyway. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Ref 12: "He was a prominent snooker and English billiards player during the mid-1970s despite being an amateur." Not verified.
    • Has been removed Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:09, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Ref 18: Used to verify a lot of information that proceeds it, but it does not. I think there's some missing refs here.
    • Added a bit more on refs. Luckily the German wikipedia had some info on EBSA European Team Championship which I've now linked Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:09, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Ref 30 gives lots of information that can be used to verify or add information to the article.

Please ping me when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 01:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Cheers, I'll take a look at this later today. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:27, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Drive by comments. Looks like the following also lack support from the citations following them:

• He also faced issues regarding travelling from Malta to England as his travelling expenses burdened his performances at professional snooker competitions, especially at the start of his professional career. He competed in professional tournaments occasionally during his first two professional seasons due to the challenges he faced and the circumstances he met with.
• Grech faced a rough patch for a considerable period of time after failing to deliver expected results in the professional competitions. He subsequently lost professional status in 1990 after a dip in form. He attempted to requalify through the WPBSA Qualifying School but it backfired. Therefore he had to play on the second-class new UK tour the following season, but was invited to the first-class professional Malta Grand Prix.

Also:

• There seems to be a repetition about him winning the 1997 IBSF billiards championship, which is in both "Rising through the ranks" and in "Ups and downs". It could be wikilinked in the body as it is in the lead.
• Despite losing in the final of the 1987 Amateur World Snooker Championship, he managed to register 42 century breaks during the course of the tournament - it was the English billiards, not the snooker, championship, according to the source. (Breaks over 400 is a clue.) This still sounds a bit unlikely, so I'll see if I can check this in another source.

Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Wow, he really did have that many century breaks at the 1997 Billiard championship! Impressive. (Details are in Snooker Scene, September 1987). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:37, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

It's a crazy amount. I've cleaned up the article throughout, hopefully it's a bit better now. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:35, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: Following up with this: I saw that you left comments above, but that there are still outstanding bullet points 9 days later, and Benny also found some verification concerns. I think GANs are normally open 7 days after the initial review but I'm happy to keep this open longer if requested and if this is actively being worked on. Do you want to keep this open or fail it for now so that there's less of a time pressure to address the above concerns? Z1720 (talk) 02:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

GANs aren't closed because they are 7 days old. They can be closed if the article has no improvements after 7 days. Aside from the referencing style, I have done the rest of the items I believe. I'm struggling a bit to get time on PC to get the reference fixes, as it's a bit difficult from mobile. Please keep this open, I'll have everything done this weekend. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Z1720, did you have anything else for me to look at? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Lee Vilenski It's not my review, but there are still some issues with lack of verification for statements: He also faced issues regarding travelling from Malta to England as his travelling expenses burdened his performances at professional snooker competitions. Due to this, he competed in professional tournaments occasionally during his first two professional seasons. His best performance was (the bit that follows, about being defeated by Higgins, is verified); and Grech's professional status was revoked in 1990 after a dip in form. He attempted to requalify but was unable and had to play on the second-class new UK tour the following season. Nevertheless, he was given a place at the Malta Grand Prix fully professional event. I'll look for a source about him losing his professional status, as that should be relatively easy. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Not as easy as I thought. According to Snooker Scene, Grech was ranked 68th at the end of the 1989-90 season, up from 130th the year before, so hardly a "dip in form". (There were play-offs involving the ten lowest-ranked professionals in 1990, but Grech wasn't involved, and those became pointless as WPBSA membership was opened to all shortly afterwards.) From Hayton's Cuesport book (pp.473-474), it looks like Grech continued to play professionally until 1997, when only the top 64 were guaranteed a place the following season. In 1997-98 he played in the WPBSA qualifying school and the UK tour events, and was then seemingly back on the main circuit 1998-99, with the last match being a "World Snooker Euro-America playoff" semi-final that he lost to Patrick Delsemme. The book lists him playing in just a handful of professional events in Malta/Europe until 2002, when the trail ends. BTW, Hayton gives a DOB of 9 July 1954 (p.473). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I want to let everyone know that I have not forgotten about this, but real life has been really busy and I want to ensure that I devote enough time to properly do the source check. I will attend to this as soon as possible. Z1720 (talk) 01:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: Have you had a chance to address Benny's comments above? If so, I'll take another look. Z1720 (talk) 00:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay Z1720, I've been a bit indesposed with illness. I'll check it over now. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I've added some pieces from what Benny said above. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:42, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: I am happy to wait until this article's concerns are all addressed. Get better soon! Let me know when you are ready for me to take a second look. Z1720 (talk) 13:42, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I've added a reference for one point. I'm a bit stuck on finding a source for "Grech became a professional snooker player in the 1988-89 snooker season" as he doesn't appear in the list of new professionals for that season. He may well, like Alain Robidoux, have been granted discretionary "non-tournament" status by the WPBSA; this allowed players to compete only in the World Championship. He was, however, given a place in the 1989 Dubai Classic following the withdrawal of players managed by Barry Hearn. I'd suggest rewording to something like "The 1989 World Championship was Grech's first professional tournament." which is supported by the Hayton book. Other than that, I have no issues with the current text being supported with citations. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Status query

Z1720, Lee Vilenski, BennyOnTheLoose, it's been eight weeks since work has been done on the article and a post made here. Where do things stand on this review? It would be great if it could move forward. Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: Have you addressed Benny's points above, and is this ready for me to restart the review? Z1720 (talk) 15:58, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I believe so. I don't think there is anything missing. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:22, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: There's just the point about "Grech became a professional snooker player in the 1988-89 snooker season" (from my comment on 31 May) outstanding from the points I raised. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:54, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I have changed to your preferred wording, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

@Z1720: there's nothing else from me. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Continuing review

Since I left off at the source check, I'll do that first. version checked

• Refs verified: 9, 18, 23, 26, 34, 38

• Ref 8 needs a page number
  • Only issue I have is that the google books preview has no page numbers. [8] Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I looked for another version of the book, but couldn't find it so page numbers are not necessary. I suggest that a hidden note be added to this entry outlining that you couldn't find a page number. Z1720 (talk) 20:28, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Ref 20, 30, 32, 36 need an access date
  • Added via script.
• Ref 39: Per MOS:ALLCAPS, video should not be in all caps
  • Done Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Prose review: I made some edits to the article, which I consider minor. Please review and revert if you don't like. I think the prose is in good shape.

Please ping in your response. Z1720 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Ok Z1720, I only have the one point, andI'm not sure how to solve it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

All issues have been addressed, so I will pass this. Z1720 (talk) 20:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.