Talk:Joe Martin (orangutan)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Theleekycauldron (talk) 02:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

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Joe Martin (1923)

• ... that Joe Martin (orangutan) played a "great orang-outang" in Merry-Go-Round that the New York Times reviewer thought was "too big, but made to appear very real"? Source: "The Screen: The Clown and His Daughter". The New York Times. 1923-07-02. p. 16. Retrieved 2022-10-28.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Meni (high official)

Created by Jengod (talk). Self-nominated at 21:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: I think this image might be clearer. Smurrayinchester 10:56, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

These are all variations on the theme. If we could get a picture slot, my preference is for ALT1, if we can’t, I’d go with ALT3. Happy to offer some new hooks from scratch if you’d prefer. LMK.

Joe Martin (1922)

ALT1: * ... that Joe Martin played a "great orang-outang" in Merry-Go-Round that the New York Times reviewer thought was "too big, but made to appear very real"?

ALT2: * ... that an orangutan called Joe Martin played a "great orang-outang" in Merry-Go-Round that the New York Times reviewer thought was "too big, but made to appear very real"?

ALT3: * ... that an orangutan called Joe Martin played a "great orang-outang" in Merry-Go-Round that the New York Times reviewer thought was "too big, but made to appear very real"?

jengod (talk) 16:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I like those. I think ALT2 is clearest. Marked as ready. Smurrayinchester 20:18, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

• Pulled from the queue because of citation needed and original research tags. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• • I have edited it further and improved 90+ citations but that’s a hard pass from me on going another round on this. I have to do surgery on my dishwasher. Thank you for the opportunity but I withdraw the nomination. Please remove it from the queue. jengod (talk) 00:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment

I would like to work toward a removal of the "original research" hatnote template. Suggestions on how to get there? Help! Thanks in advance to all. jengod (talk) 02:29, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

(Summoned by bot) Simply remove it, if the person who placed it there challenges you - ask what EXACTLY is meant. The article appears to be well sourced (based on a superficial reading and without me checking out the sources), but I may not have spotted the supposed 'fault'. You can also close this RfC yourself as the instigator of it if the 'labeller' doesn't materialise. If you can't agree with that person, that would be the time to have an RfC. The RfC is a bit premature without having identified the problem - or lack of now possibly. Pincrete (talk) 13:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you User:Pincrete. Done and done. jengod (talk) 14:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Any problem - blame me. But there shouldn't be as the onus is on the objector to make their objection clear. RfC is only needed if discussion has failed. Pincrete (talk) 17:52, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Prison revolt, zoo revolt?

Reading the lead section, it mentions, "In his day, he... organized a prison revolt." "Prison" does not appear in the article, where "revolt" is mentioned once with this sentence saying "zoo revolt": "According to another account of the incident (which is apparently distinct from the time he organized the zoo revolt), the police officer had tried to shoot Joe Martin first."

It looks like the lead-section phrase refers to this passage: "In July 1919, Joe Martin escaped his cage at Universal and went on a multi-day rampage in which time he wrecked an assistant trainer's quarters, released approximately 15 wolves (most likely the zoo's Siberian huskies that played wolves on film), freed Charlie the Elephant, and created general havoc."

However, saying that he "organized a prison revolt" sounds anthropomorphic, indicating that he led the animals to rise in rebellion. Maybe rephrase it more neutrally to say that he escaped from his zoo cage and freed other animals in the process? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I was amusing myself sorry!. It *is* objectively hilarious. I’ll modify so hopefully it’s clearer and more truthful. TY v much for the note User:Erik jengod (talk) 19:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Understood! On the face of it, not finding "prison" right away, I admit I wondered at first if it was vandalism. Unfortunately we gotta be serious in our encyclopedic contributions! Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:15, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think this is still too "funny" in tone (particularly considering the concept of animal liberation movement). Open to other editors' thoughts. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Erik, LMK what you think of v3.0 jengod (talk) 20:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

It's fine, I guess. I had also seen this sentence in the article body, "Now, surely you have heard of Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries, but have you heard of Jim Jeffries vs. Joe Martin?" Call me too serious-minded, but I would discourage this kind of WP:EDITORIALizing that does not "maintain an impartial tone", e.g., "This kind of persuasive writing approach is also against the Wikipedia:No original research policy (Wikipedia does not try to steer the reader to a particular interpretation or conclusion) and the Instructional and presumptuous language guideline (Wikipedia does not break the fourth wall and write at the reader, other than with navigational hatnotes)." I don't want to get sucked into analyzing every bit of the article's language. It's just that the life and career of this animal is wild enough as it is without the more partial tone. That's why an article like human is written in a very disconnected way. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Eliminated that sentence and rewrote whole graf. I think that fight article is some good Wikipedia and wanted to get it in there but readers can get to it through Jim Jeffries article. Thank you again for the notes, User:Erik. jengod (talk) 20:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Copy editing notes

Hey there, I'm doing a copy edit of this article for the Guild of Copy Editors, as requested by @jengod. I'll be making most of my edits directly to the article, and leave more complicated notes here. Of course, this is all just my opinion, so feel free to revert or ask me a question. I'm not done yet, but I wanted to post this so that I don't lose the notes I've written so far :'] I've been enjoying learning about Joe Martin's life.

(also, thanks jengod for your patience on this edit!)

• Clarification needed

• Joe Martin drew blood, possibly broke Connelly's arm and "mangled" his hand.

• "his" – clarify Connelly or Joe Martin

• Keep an eye out for original research, especially related to conclusions about Joe Martin's origins, condition, or health prospects.
• Rather than putting things when they were reported, put them when they were reported to have happened, or where they are topically-relevant (i.e., lifestyle). My suggestions for inclusion in topic sections:

• Behavior and reputation: Would include contemporaneous opinions on the attitude and traits (and topics such as anthropomorphism) of Joe Martin which were not tied to specific chronological events. This info is currently scattered throughout the article.

• In a December 1920 news article about ape-men performers that combined coverage of Joe Martin and Pat Walshe (human), there was another reported instance of what humans, with their endless propensity for anthropomorphism, called chivalry. While filming a scene in which Joe Martin's character was meant to assist the villain stealing from the heroine, Joe Martin entered the situation to find the villain looming over the lady: "[The villain] threatened. [The lady] trembled...with a growl that might be interpreted as 'You ain't done right by our Nell' Joe seized the villains with his long, powerful arms and pulled his legs from under him. The villain fell to the floor with a startled cry for help, and Stecker had to explain to the trained orangutan that the threatening attitude was all in the picture."
• Stecker mentioned to a reporter that Joe Martin's "first rampage lasted a week, in which time he took a gun away from one of the policemen who was attempting to catch him and was about to kill the cop when the rest of us were able to seize him and truss him." According to another account of the incident, the police officer had tried to shoot Joe Martin first.
• In October 1921, the Los Angeles Herald discussed a possible legal issue related to Joe Martin's mail: "Joe gets about a dozen letters a day from all over the world, most of his correspondents being under the impression that he is 'a little man dressed up like a monkey.' It is the reverse. He is a little monkey dressed up like a man, to more exact, a 5 ft 5 in (1.65 m) orang-outang with a human brain. Inspector Cookson of the Los Angeles office of the postal inspectors is interested in determining Joe's rights to his own mail under the postal laws. Technically Joe is an animal. Actually he is an animal with a human brain and people write to him under perfectly good 2-cent stamps. Just to avoid any encounter with the federal grand jury Stecker has just instructed Joe Martin to open his own mail. It is a regular morning ceremony now at the Universal City arena." The possible legal issue centered around fans sending money orders to pay for photos of Joe Martin; if "Stecker should cash the money order on behalf of Universal it would take Edwin Loeb and a whole battery of famous corporation lawyers to keep him out of the clink." When handed a stack of envelopes from his mailbag, Joe Martin would usually pick the one with the "brightest hue" or the one with the most postage stamps; he then would hold it up to the light and rip off the end of the envelope, careful not to tear the enclosed contents.

• I would also consider adding a footnote that opening another person's mail is illegal in the United States, as it may not be evident to worldwide readers. (I don't know, I'm not a postal law expert haha)

• Squier wrote that Joe Martin adored his trainer "Pudgy" and despised his past trainer "Red Gallagher," who had once whipped him and burned him with a hot poker. In "Joe Martin, Gentleman!", Squier documented two additional assaults; she also witnessed Joe Martin defend a weaker animal from a bully, rescue an endangered human baby, and earn the respect of his sworn enemy.

• Lifestyle or Lifestyle and wellbeing: would include overview of diet, caretakers, living quarters.

• The same month, a Connecticut paper reported that Universal was building a "jungle bungalow" for Joe Martin with indoor plumbing and "period furniture." This building may have been used as a film set for A Monkey Movie Star, which was released the following year and was said to be Joe Martin's "autobiography". Another article mentioned that Joe Martin's "jungalow" included a bed, a sunken bathtub, a horizontal bar, and a trapeze.
• An advertisement in a Canadian newspaper for Universal's two-reeler Jazz Monkey included a humorous essay about Joe Martin's diet which stated that Joe Martin consumed a vegetarian diet of carrots, turnips, onions, corn on the ears, alligator pears, "root beer, ice-cream soda, coco-cola, or malted milk, to any extent a friend is able to buy," and "tobacco in moderation, preferring the smokeless variety." A later report said that Joe Martin's diet usually consisted of vegetables and a mixture of malted milk and warm water, sometimes supplemented with eggs "to give it more body and flavor." Sunday was a day of fasting for the zoo, followed by a richer meal than usual on Monday morning.
• Joe Martin was at the studio for approximately a decade and for the most part remained in robust health, despite the historic fragility of captive orangutans. In addition to his bout with influenza, he apparently once stole a spiked bowl of punch from a banquet scene and was ill for the remainder of the day; a day of filming where he continuously smoked a cigar made him similarly ill. Joe Martin also suffered "Klieg eyes," a reaction to the brightness of the sound-stage lights. He was spotted wearing an arm sling in 1919, supposedly because he fell off a roof and sprained his wrist. Joe Martin also suffered electrical burns to his hands in 1919 after he escaped a film shoot, climbed a power pole, chewed on the rubber insulation of the copper wires, and then began swinging along the lines as if he were in a forest canopy. Universal City shut off the electricity, and assistant director Harry Burns climbed up the pole and rescued the "partially-paralyzed" animal.

• This bit especially doesn't belong where it currently is.

More to come! :]

References

Wracking ^💬 04:41, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

You're tremendously good at copy editing, I hope you know that! I just got back from a trip and I can't find my glasses either but I promise to read all of this and integrate your suggestions as soon as I can. You rock @Wracking! jengod (talk) 22:58, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jengod, thanks so much for your very kind words and your patience as I've taken longer than expected!

• Behavior and reputation:
  • "Joe Martin monkey picture" was a marketing hook for a spinoff series featuring the chimpanzee Mrs. Joe Martin; Joe Martin possibly appeared in one of the pictures. According to Steve Massa, "It seems likely that the creation of the 'missus' was a way for the studio to insure a regular release schedule of monkey comedies as big money maker Joe Martin was getting more difficult to work with."
    • Or add this to the relevant time period.
  • In 1935, an Idaho publisher printed Al Barnes' memoirs, as told to author Dave Robeson while Barnes was dying in the desert city of Indio, California.
    • The quote is a great summary of Joe Martin's reputation but may work better trimmed, mostly paraphrased, and implemented with other sources. All of this stuff published in 1935 is better for a topic section, not a chronological one.
• I think parts of "Transoceanic shipment and first owners" would be less WP:OR-y if they were put in the "Background" section. But overall I think that bit section needs a close look
• This is almost definitely original research; it should just be pared down to last known appearances with minimal editorial comment.
  • Given the Time report, 1931 is a conservative estimated year of death for Joe Martin. Joe Martin's estimated birthyear predates by five years the earliest historical record in the International Orangutan Studbook, but even with a most-conservative birth year of 1914 and most-conservative death year of 1927, Joe Martin may well have been one of the longest-lived orangutans in overseas captivity in the era that closed with the advent of modern recordkeeping.

I've also left some inline tags. I'm gonna check this off now, but let me know if any issues arise or you have any questions!

References

Wracking ^💬 03:43, 30 May 2023 (UTC)