Talk:John A. Hilger/GA2

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 12:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Images properly licensed
• Don't open with his rank; start with just his name.
• I would suggest modelling this article on FA-quality general officer aviators like Frank Bladin, especially in coverage and structure of the lede.
• Delete the names of the other crewmembers from the photo of the Doolittle raiders and just tell the reader which one Hilger is.
• More information is needed on why Doolittle picked Hilger.
• There are lots of issues with close paraphrasing remaining, particularly with the Handbook of Texas article, although some of that is because there are only so many ways that you can say that he served in this post or did that job. Nonetheless, you need to put this article in your own voice.
• There's some redundant info that needs to be deleted, particularly in the early life section where you tell the reader which year he graduated from high school twice, mirroring the entry in the Handbook of Texas.
• I'm going to give you a week to start reworking the article and will put the article on hold until then. If you cannot start work before then, I'll fail the article and you can work on it at your leisure before renominating it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  I have made some updated to the article based on your suggestions:

  • All images are licensed properly (PD-USAF).
  • Updated introduction by removing rank and starting with his name.
  • I updated the article structure based on the article you mentioned.
  • I have updated the bomber crew images by deleting other crew members names and only adding Hilger in it.
  • Regarding the information on why Doolittle chose Hilger, I can't find detailed information from sources regarding Doolittle Raid. But in the book by Woodall, it stated that Hilger was chosen as deputy commander after being nominated by his AAF bomb group commander, due to him being a 'no-nonsense individual', which I paraphrased.
  • Regarding the paraphrasing issues from Handbook of Texas, I modified the paragraphs with similarity from the content in the Handbook, with the help of Earwig tool.
  • The redundant info in 'Early life' section deleted. If there are more, you could suggest to me and I will edit it in a given time.

  Toadboy123 (talk) 04:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• Better, but still needs more work.
• Forex, the opening sentence comes directly from the Handbook. Look more closely at the info contained in the lede of the Frank Bladin article and how it's structured as a summary of the article. That should be your model. There's a lot of the excessive detail from the lede here that needs to be deleted. Forex, you should tell the reader what school he graduated from and when, but don't tell what his major was until the main body. See WP:SUMMARYSTYLE if you need general guidance on what should be included.
• The lede should be roughly chronological and you shouldn't mention the Doolittle raid in the opening sentence.
• You got the date of his commissioning in the Air Corps wrong.
• Rework the lede and we'll proceed from there.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  I have updated the lede based on the article you mentioned and the second set of suggestions you made. Let me know of any more updates have to be made for the article. Toadboy123 (talk) 02:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

  • Sorry to take so long to get back to this.

• The lede looks pretty good, although you need to give a rough time for when he was commanding the 89th.
• Combine the first two sentences of the first para in the early life section
• Open the next para with "Later that year,"
• Combine the first two sentences of the second para by changing the "however" to but
• We don't know for sure that he had to drop out for money problems, so add a "probably" and change fiscal constraints to a simpler phrase
• Link the BS degree, mechanical engineering, adjutant
• Use the name US Army Reserve with a link. You need to clarify that he branched infantry in the USAR. This is one place it's OK to close paraphrase because there aren't many viable alternatives.
• Fold the 3rd and 4th paragraphs together since they both cover his early military career
• More later--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
  • @Sturmvogel 66 Hi. Sorry for the late response to your message. I have made edits to article as per the recent updates you made. Toadboy123 (talk) 08:52, 02 October 2023 (UTC)
• I've trimmed the text some to eliminate extraneous details; feel free to revert.
• I'm not seeing anything about Hilger's service from Nov '43 to Sept '44 in the AF biography. What's the source, Woodall? In fact it contradicts the AF biography which says that he was on Nimitz's staff for the last 18 months of the war.
• The first para of the Cold War section is almost a direct quote from the AF bio and needs to be revised or quoted directly. This is true of most of the rest of the article. Do your best to rephrase all the duty assignments. But stuff like the second sentence of the Later life section is lifted directly from sources and needs to be rewritten.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 11:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Sturmvogel 66: I have made the edits as you stated. Regarding the 'rephrase all the duty assignments', am I supposed to rephrase the duty assignements to avoid similtairty with AF bio. I have rephrased and edited the 'Cold War' section? Toadboy123 (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yes--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Sturmvogel 66: I have paraphased the 'Early life' section which contains the bulk of the information of his military assignments. Let me know how is it and any if any further edits have to be made. Toadboy123 (talk) 09:28, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Sturmvogel 66 and Toadboy123: where does this review stand? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29: I have made necessary edits from my side including paraphrasing. Waiting for reviewer to give any further suggestions before the article can be considered GA . Toadboy123 (talk) 07:57, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  I have left some messages on Sturmvogel 66's talk page encouraging them to complete this. Let's see if that has any effect. RoySmith (talk) 15:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, I had misread your comments as only applying to the early part of his career. Your changes are now sufficiently different from the sources that I'm comfortable promoting it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination (second nomination)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by AirshipJungleman29 talk 19:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that John A. Hilger was the deputy commander of the Doolittle Raid? Source: https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/hilger-john-allen-jack
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Phomen Singh

Improved to Good Article status by Toadboy123 (talk). Self-nominated at 07:33, 15 December 2023‎ (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/John A. Hilger (second nomination); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• • @Onegreatjoke: @RoySmith: @Jon698: @Narutolovehinata5: Re-opening this discussion as the article has passed GA after I edited the article extensively to remove any copyright issues. Toadboy123 (talk) 07:28, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
• I'm going to ask for assistance from someone with the technical know-how, perhaps either Theleekycauldron or Vaticidalprophet, because this page should not have been a copypaste of the original nomination but should have been a clean, new nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Narutolovehinata5, Toadboy123, as this is supposed to be a totally new nomination, I have deleted everything from the prior review (except maybe the hook). This includes the QPQ, which was supplied by Onegreatjoke for that particular nomination and was used for it even though it didn't ultimately pass; Toadboy123 will need to supply their own QPQ for this new nomination. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
    • @BlueMoonset: Completed a new QPQ as per requested. - Toadboy123 (talk) 12:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Full review needed now that QPQ has been provided. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:07, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Toadboy123: It has been almost a year since this article was withdrawn here at DYK and I see much work has been done to make corrections. A few issues: should we repeat the claim "was commissioned in the U.S. Army Air Corps in 1934" in the body? It is a minor thing that can be corrected on the fly. We also say in the lead he was "selected by Doolittle" but the article only says "Hilger, now a lieutenant colonel, was designated as the deputy commander for the "Doolittle Raid," a mission led by Lieutenant Colonel Jimmy Doolittle in March 1942". Right now both claims are in the lead but not repeated in the body. Also we say "he piloted one of the B-25s that bombed Nagoya in Japan" but the Doolittle section of the article does not say that he was flying a B-25.

Earwig alerts only to long professional titles. I spot checked several references and the citations were correctly used. The QPQ is done and the article was a new GA so it qualifies for DYK. The hook may require a person to have specialized knowledge. Like what is the Doolittle raid? What era? What war? What country? The hook is cited but I think we should explore another based on DYKCRIT

Hooks should be likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest.

I am comfortable that the article is free of obvious plagiarism and clop. The article is neutral and no image is offered here but certainly could be. We say he "bail out over the city of Shangrao", maybe it is assumed but we should probably add how he bailed with a parachute. Suggestion.

• ALT1: ... that during World War II, US pilot John A. Hilger had to bail out of his aircraft behind enemy lines?
• ALT2: ... that US pilot John A. Hilger flew his aircraft in a bombing mission over Japan during World War II, but he did not have enough fuel to return? Bruxton (talk) 22:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  • @Bruxton: How about ALT3: ...that due to his participation in the Doolittle Raid, John A. Hilger was not allowed to fly any missions while assigned in the China Burma India Theater during World War II? Let me know if this is fine by you. - Toadboy123 (talk) 00:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@Toadboy123: It does not interest me. A bit too busy. Also see if you can address my other nitpicks. Bruxton (talk) 00:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bruxton: Ok, I will go for ALT2 as it seems more interesting. - Toadboy123 (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@Toadboy123: I am hoping to pass the nomination, but I mentioned items that need fixing. Bruxton (talk) 02:37, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@Toadboy123: malformed ping Bruxton (talk) 15:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bruxton: I have made stated edits. - Toadboy123 (talk) 03:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Toadboy123: Not yet, two still unfinished items from my initial review Bruxton (talk) 04:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bruxton: Did some of your edit requests. Please let me know if there is anything more to be resolved. - Toadboy123 (talk) 06:04, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I have it called out in my first review above.

"was commissioned in the U.S. Army Air Corps in 1934" is not in the body

"selected by Doolittle" is not in the body

Bruxton (talk) 06:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bruxton I have fixed these issues. Let me know now if the article is good to go. - Toadboy123 (talk) 01:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Bruxton (talk) 01:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

New reviewer needed as ALT2 was created by the reviewer. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Planes of the Doolittle Raid weren't supposed to return - they were supposed to fly on to China, so ALT2 is kind of misleading. One could perhaps go with something like:

• ALT4: ... that John A. Hilger was deputy commander of the Doolittle Raid, a one-way bombing mission against Japan in 1942?
• ALT5: ... that John A. Hilger was deputy commander of the first American bombing mission to strike the Japanese mainland in World War II? Gatoclass (talk) 02:46, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I like your hooks but now we need more reviewers. Bruxton (talk) 01:40, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes Bruxton I know that, but proposing alt hooks at times is part of the reviewing process. One cannot promote a nomination unless it has a viable hook. Gatoclass (talk) 03:49, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Bruxton, unless there's a new rule I'm not aware of I think you're allowed to approve Gatoclass's hooks. Both need an end-of-sentence citation in the article though. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:52, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Renumbering Gatoclass's two alts as ALT4 and ALT5, since an ALT3 had previously been proposed back on 24 January (which I have just struck per Bruxton's comment that followed). BlueMoonset (talk) 19:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer needed for ALTs 4 and 5. Gatoclass (talk) 00:50, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Both hooks would require an end-of-sentence citation.--Launchballer 17:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

AlT4 isn't even in the article. I mean, if you squint your eyes and read between the lines, then sure, but hooks need to be explicit. Could the nominator add it to the "Doolittle Raid" section in the bio please? Viriditas (talk) 07:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

ALT5 is in the article, but lacks a citation at the end of the sentence. Strangely, there is nothing about the hook in Doolittle Raid itself. Viriditas (talk) 07:19, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Note, I attempted to add sources for both ALT4 and ALT5 and could not do so. One of the sources required a subscription to Project Muse, so if you have access to that, please take a look. Viriditas (talk) 08:06, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Viriditas' concerns are valid, and so neither ALT4 or ALT5 currently work. As this nomination is over two months old, I am marking it as rejected. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)