Talk:Joik

Old discussions

Should this page be under the Norwegian joik, the Swedish jojk, the North Saami word which I do not know, or the English word yoicking, which I've never heard outside of Wikipedia, and seems to be based on the Norwegian anyway? arj 17:05, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Removed the following:

Joiks are sung deep in the throat; they may be considered a form of throat singing.

This is plainly not the case. Joiking is not done with overtone singing; an ordinary modal voice is used.

Some believe that joiks are a highly modified form of Sama Veda, one of the four Vedic traditions of India and the one that pandits sing most slowly.

Interesting, if it's true. But we need some references for this.

The name of the Sami people (who sing joiks) may actually derive from the Sanskrit word Sama.

Very probably incorrect. The Sami language is Finno-ugric, Sanskrit is Indo-European. If there is any connection, it must have been borrowed from Sanskrit into Sami. IIRC, the word Sami comes from the Sami word for man. arj 21:12, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Spelling

I saw that DAT (record company) uses the spelling "yoik" for this genre, and was planning to rename this page soon. Any comments (as this have been discussed earlier) ? // Rogper 22:40, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

When I first created this page, I had no idea what the preferred term in English was. None of my dictionaries mention it (to any higher accuracy than "chant"). I say that spelling is as good as anything, but the Swedish and Norwegian terms should be kept as redirect pages. arj 18:27, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

I saw you did the work for me, good :-) // Rogper 19:45, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Throat singing

Not all yoiks involve throat singing, but I am distressed to see the reference removed. Perhaps you would allow Some yoiks are sung deep in the throat, and may be considered a form of throat singing. It is certainly a well documented and common characteristic, even if the skills to do it well are rare at this time.

It would be interesting to see a reference on this. I have personally never heard a yoik that even remote resembled throat singing. If it does indeed occur, we should of course include a reference on this. However, if it turns out to be the case, I would much prefer a formulation like «is sung with a retracted tongue root» or something like that. All songs involve the larynx, which is situated deep in the throat. arj 00:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Joik singers I have heard: Jon Henrik Fjallgren, Sofia Jannok, Wimme Sari -- sing the notes more up in the mouth, then the tone seems to shift, to resonate more into the throat, moving from one to the other. My observation is that the tone evolves from one phrase to another and resembles the depth of the connection of the singer in the whole body and the intent or relationship of the singer with the situation the joik is about. It seems to be derived very internally with melody and volume, rhythm, and more as the feeling carries forward. Hard to quantify, calculate, etc., it seems more a performance of deep connectivity with nature, can be very simple or dramatic, in harmony of sentiment or a state of surrender that transcends superficial recognition. Like the rhythm of winds weaving across a landscape of hills and trees captured in musical phrases and melodies, like names of trees that reflect the sounds they are surrounded by. Maybe it's a new coat, first herding trip, or a first dance for a young child, or the arrival of seasonal birds, or a lament for a loved one who passed on, or something like that. This is a purely personal observation with much admiration. 69.18.23.2 (talk) 01:04, 4 December 2017 (UTC)DD December 3, 2017

It is very particular how everyone is interested in making connections between the Sami and a number of (for the Sami) remote peoples. In the Wikipedia articles and discussion forums, one mentions circumpolar peoples, north American Indians, Sanskrit and throat singing (which is used by nations in Siberia). Why not realize that parts of Sami culture are actually unique? (I think everyone realizes this. David)

I believe that Yoiks were traditionally sung using the same subtle techniques as are used by present-day Vedic Pandits, and that Yoik lyrics may have overlapped with or been derived from those of Sama Veda. It is frustrating that this is such an obscure area of human knowledge that no information appears to be available. In particular, there are probably no recordings of really old Yoik performances. And even if they were, who would possess the ability to recognize whether they truly sounded like Sama Veda? By the way, this is of more than academic interest. Pandits chant Sama Veda in order to develop Universal consciousness in their listeners, and the same may be true of the original singers of Yoiks. The notion of pure, Universal consciousness as being part of the heritage of indigenous peoples is an intriguing one. David 15:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Whoever removed the throat singing reference has only a partial understanding of the application of the term; "throat singing" is applied not only to Tuvan/Mongolian overtone singing (not all of the sub-styles of which are considered "throat singing"), but also to Inuit katajjaq and similar traditions in Siberia, Turkey, etc. that use the pharynx to modify (distort) the sound of the vocal cords but don't focus on overtone production. Although the term "throat singing" isn't usually applied to joik, the vocal technique of some joikers/joik styles (Wimme, for example) shares a similar pharyngealization of the voice. Badagnani 08:20, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Throatsinging is both a generic and a specific term. Generally it is applied to any singing where the throat is constricted in some way. Specifically, it refers to a type of Central Asian overtone singing (khoomii means throat in Mongolian and is a loanword in Tuvan). The specific meaning tends to be used more. A definition of overtone singing requires the overtones to be used in the formation of the melody since physically all sounds produce overtones. A surprising range of vocal styles actually use overtones in some way. From what I've heard of jojk, it is not overtone singing in this sense. Overtones are sometimes used as ornamentation in jojk, as vibrato is used in some European singing. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Lyrics?

This info in the article on Sami_music directly conflicts with information in this article on lyrics: Traditional Sami music revolves around singing. The only traditional instruments are the fluite "fadno" (=Angelica archangelica) and drums, and purely instrumental music is unknown.

Whoever is informed on the subject, please feel free to make a correction to either article. --JH 2005 March 25

Bad Link

A link at the end of the article will go "stale" from time to time because it is a direct link to a Document in a Notes database. I'm not sure how to fix this, but I've removed one level of redirection, which may help.

I changed

http://www.fimic.fi/fimic/fimic.nsf/mainframe?readform&8F1750D3A9719F37C225683100402C79

to

http://www.fimic.fi/fimic/fimic.nsf/0/ddd24c7814224ba8c2256f0800325820?OpenDocument

David 15:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

How to you pronounce Yoik? It is like him from "Scooby Doo" when scared... Yoooiks? LOL Seriously though, this needs to be expanded on. Also, from what I have read in English, it is Joik and not Yoik - even Ánde Somby, the Research Scholar of the Faculty of Law at the University of Tromsø says this. FK0071a 13:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In Sw. it's pronounced [jɔjk], which would be most sensibly rendered as "yoik" in English. Somby appears to be using the Norwegian spelling, which surely is unnecessarily misleading to English audiences (unless, I suppose, a spelling pronunciation [dʒɔjk] has established itself). 85.8.12.78 (talk) 19:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

If spelled with "j", some measure is imperative to prevent people from pronouncing that "j" as in English. Preserving indigenous spellings out of "respect" in a foreign language (here English) can lead to disrespectful (and newfangled) pronunciations instead.

What do knowledgeable authorities say? I haven't time to dig very deep myself. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 18:38, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Native Americans

I have read that it is comariable - understandable but I have also read that Sami music is older that native american chanting. Can this be vertified? FK0071a 13:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yoiking is known from the 17th century (source: Nationalencyklopedin), but may very well be much older, historical records of Sámi culture in earlier times being exceedingly sparse. 85.8.12.78 (talk) 20:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sample

Shouldn't an audio sample of Yoiking be provided? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.117.185 (talk) 09:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Here are some yoiks linked so check them out / include in article: http://www-db.helsinki.fi/cgi-bin/thw/?$%7BBASE%7D=saamimedia&$%7BSNHTML%7D=nosynaudioen&$%7Bhtml%7D=listaudioen&LA=11&%24%7BSORT%7D=tien —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.201.209.175 (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Its "Joik", not "Yoik"...

I don't know how that the word "yoik" lasted for so long, but the correct spelling is "joik". There are far more references to "Joik" on Google. Scandinavian words are speeled with a "J". Its not a fyord, but a fjord. The word "Joik" should be inserted. I will move to change this shortly Dinkytown talk 10:04, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

See section "Pronunciation?". 151.177.57.131 (talk) 18:49, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Moreover, Google should never be used as a statistical source. Any number of ignorants can (and do) write anything out there, using each other as sources (e.g. the present enwiki article) – whereas a larger proportion of more qualified sources can be expected to have restricted access. And that's not counting all that's only on paper.

As for "joik", the fact that it's spelled the same in Norwegian (with another pronunciation than the natural English) skews the findings too. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

As for "fjord", just to have that said, the comparison is bad because the onset [fdʒ-] is unknown (or practically so, and arguably unpronounceable) in English; the onset [dʒ-] is not. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 16:45, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The text in the article should not be at conflict with the article's title. If you want the article title changed, see WP:Requested moves. List the discussion and make your case with WP:Reliable sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for info. However I'm afraid that entails more work than I can lay down on this. (By the by, just mentioning: I haven't seen that the "joik" version has any better support here than the "yoik" version had. (Ande Somby is no linguist.) That's why I dared change it.) 151.177.57.131 (talk) 17:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Just mentioning again, not that I believe in any rush of readers: another thought of mine was that where the quality is so uneven anyway as it is in an encyclopedia of this nature, some improvement is better than none.

And about moving the article: since neither spelling seems to have any easily accessible good sources online, it would be my word against a title that has stood for, it seems, some eight years – even if that's just through lack of interest. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 16:45, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Throat singing in Saami Joiks

Some Saami Joiks are (and have always traditionally been) performed using throat singing (overtone singing). An example is a song collected by Somby. For some reason, my edits that clarified the existence of ancient throat singing Joiks were all deleted from these articles. This note is just a statement, in case someone else wants to try adding this interesting topic to WP. There seems to be some opinion that what exists does not exist. We need some reliable source for this, to prevent it from being deleted. I'm not interesting in fighting about it. David Spector (user/talk) 00:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Pentatonic?

I have never heard a pentatonic joik and it is nowhere found in the link it's refering to. Joik is sung harmonic overtones to a certain fundamental note. Allthough harmonic overtones are achieved by throught singers joik singers sing them instead of shaping them with formants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.109.206 (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Leuʹdd

Leuʹdd is singing, but not Joik. It's a very different genre. There is scientific literature on this topic, see fi:Leuʹdd. It would likely need a separate article. Perhaps I'll write it later. Michael.riessler (talk) 13:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)