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Talk:Joseph Smith/Archive 21

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Latest comment: 9 years ago by Bahooka in topic Family question?
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Events in the Life of Joseph Smith

Latest comment: 12 years ago24 comments11 people in discussion

I made this chronology to better show the life of Joseph Smith.--217.230.255.153 (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Joseph Smith/Archive 21

The chronology might be a good idea, but it needs a lot of work before it is introduced to the page. There is no mention of his marriage or other important events that shaped the course of his life. I suggest that this timeline be discussed first BEFORE it is reintroduced to this article. A tip for you: If you want your edits to carry more weight and not get changed as much, you may want to consider getting an official WP account. In general, edits made by IP users tend to be reverted a lot more. Anyways, after the timeline has been polished, I think it would be a good addition to the article. What does everyone else think? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 18:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Because nobody objected the timeline, I add it now again.--84.177.226.162 (talk) 15:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

For a consensus to be built, one needs to wait longer than three days. I have reverted the change to allow sufficient time for others to comment. In the meantime, you can feel free to tweak the timeline to make it more complete. Many more events can and should be added, like Smith's marriage. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 15:59, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The time line is just Mormon POV that includes only "faith promoting" events in Smith's life. I'd suggest emphasizing Smith's polygamy by giving a date for every marriage (or at least the first thirty or so that can be reasonably dated) or his early career being paid to search for buried treasure through supernatural means.--John Foxe (talk) 20:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I would rather not include the timeline than include something so harshly critical of Smith. Most of that happens to be anti-Mormon propoganda anyways, put together by critics of Smith as an excuse for dismissing what he claimed. Most of the stuff on the timeline and what you mentioned is included in the article already. So if it comes to a choice, I'd say, don't include the timeline. That would be far more objective than posting just one side or the other of it. It would be difficult to have it both ways. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 20:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree. My suggestion was a "modest proposal."--John Foxe (talk) 20:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
Comment: if a timeline is to be included, I think we should first agree on an objective way of choosing which events to include. There are a huge number of events to choose from, and one could definitely pick and choose events to push a point of view. I would suggest basing the timeline on the article itself (i.e. if something isn't in the article it shouldn't go on the timeline). This would exclude both the so-called "faith promoting" events like the Civil War prophecy and the long list of wives John Foxe recommended. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Adjwilley's suggestion does seem to make sense...the timeline would be a synopsis of that which is already in the article. This usually helps readers focus on those parts of an article that are of interest to them. Bilbobag (talk) 22:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the Civil War prophecy and inserted instead the Kirtland Temple.--84.177.250.228 (talk) 18:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Let's get one thing absolutely clear. The timeline is not yet complete, and there has been no consensus voice in favor of including it in the article. I have therefore once again removed it from the article until it is complete and until the consensus says to include it. Post here before reverting this change. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 07:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I added three more items but I think we should improve this timeline together, so please contribute to the timeline.--87.163.252.108 (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I have contributed to the timeline, and will do so when I think of something that needs to be added. My point was that we need to wait to include the timeline until it is complete. I view it as incomplete still, but others might see it as complete. So what I am asking for is a consensus decision to add the timeline now. And until the consensus so indicates, it should be tweaked as necessary to make it more article worthy. I have made a few minor expansions of the timeline contents. The 2012 Deseret News Church Almanac publishes a chronology of Church History that might be helpful in making this timeline work. So I will contribute as necessary, but I still think we should wait for the consensus to pronounce the timeline complete before we include it in the article. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 21:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I think it would be wise at this point to discuss whether or not we actually want a timeline in the article at all. My impression is that there aren't many strong feelings about it either way ("Meh, whatever...") but that few are wanting to do the work to make sure it's a good one. (I know that's how I feel about it.) If there is anybody with strong feelings against putting the timeline in, now would be a good time to make those feelings known (before more work is done on the timeline, and before the discussion over what events to include). ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Please note that the version going back and forth in article space has revised wording from the version at the beginning of this section to address some neutrality issues. 72Dino (talk) 23:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Something else to consider. Two editors do not a consensus make. So while there is any doubt about the timeline content or whether or not to even include it in the article, we should discuss it and work on it here FIRST. WP is governed by consensus, and no two editors alone have the right to put content in any article until it is agreed upon by the consensus. Minor edits, yes, but not major edits such as this timeline. Please consider other editors and the consensus, and let's finish discussing the timeline here BEFORE reincluding it in the article. Otherwise, it will continue to be removed unless and until it is agreed upon by the consensus to include it and it is complete. Thank you. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 02:35, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I added now the improved timeline.--217.230.233.146 (talk) 11:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I CREATED THIS WHOLE TIMELINE. SO PLEASE DISCUSS IT NOW!--217.230.233.146 (talk) 14:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

There's no need to shout. That's not productive for WP purposes. The timeline is still in dispute. Should it be included, and if so, is it complete enough? At this point, I don't care either way. I can see where it might be advantageous, but I can also see where it would just be in the way because the contents of the timeline are already in the article. Let's have a real discussion about this. And let's keep it respectful. No shouting, please. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 14:05, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I apologice for my shouting. But please discuss this timeline and do not move to some other topics.--217.230.243.50 (talk) 16:40, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I posted on your talk page but will reiterate my comments here. Thanks for apologizing for shouting. I have been discussing the timeline. You just haven't liked the way I've been disucssing it. And no WP editor has the right to tell another to not move on to discuss other topics. If I feel strongly about changes that need to be made to other parts of this article, I should be able to, and can and will comment on issues that are of importance to me. And you have no right whatsoever to restrict me to this topic alone, so stop that right now please. I think I have made myself pretty clear on my views of the timeline. I can see where it would be beneficial, but I can see where it would be in the way. So, instead of attempting to restrict me from commenting on other issues pertaining to this article, what you should be doing is talking to other editors who have weighed in on the timeline in the past and getting them to comment one way or the other on the timeline. At the moment, the consensus seems to indicate that the timeline should not be included. Unless there are more voices in favor of the timeline, it will likely not be included in the article, as per consensus. To change the consensus, stop pestering me, and instead focus on editors who have commented on the issue in the past. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

My entire work was for nothing. You can still discuss this timeline. But I have abandoned the discussion--217.230.243.50 (talk) 18:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC).

I am very sad right now. I thought this timeline was a great idea.--217.230.243.50 (talk) 18:50, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

To the IP editor: I am very sorry that you feel your work has been in vain. I've left you a note at User talk:217.230.243.50 with some suggestions (including a suggestion to create an account...It seems that your IP address changes every day, making it hard for people to know if you're the same IP who commented the day before). Also, please try not to take other editors comments or reverts as attacks. They really are trying to be helpful and are acting in good faith. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:37, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Mormon POV and opinions should be tolerated

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It seems here on wikipedia a race is going to shut down Mormonism whereby the competitors have effectively being banned. It seems to be a consensus that "Mormon POV is biased" and should not be tolerated. That is not, justified. Why? The same logic as what John Foxe is using would imply:

  • He should have no say in articles in regards to evangelical christianity
  • Americans should not be allowed to write articles on American history because they are American

And so forth. Every argument has two sides and the rationale seems to be here that all LDS claims ought to be automatically dismissed at the word go because "they are LDS". You can't have it both ways, at the end of the day LDS scholarship counts as much as any other form of scholarship too, to say only Mormons can be biased is insane. Who's to say there is no bias behind the critical scholars then? Of course, Foxe is happy to degrade any LDS-scholar to an "Apologist". These tactics are unfair, unjustified and a crime against the liberal editing platform of this website. Tolerate mormon claims and opinions, please. --202.74.162.183 (talk) 06:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, with all due respect, no extreme or bias should be tolerated here. Only verifiable NPOV information should be present, for all practical purposes, from bona fide reliable, secondary sources. Those sources we debate about or discuss at the Talk Page. Remember: this is an encyclopedia, not a tract. Best, A Sniper (talk)

Smith's letter to Rigdon's daughter

Latest comment: 12 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

I've added a verify credibility tag to the Quinn (1994) reference that claims the text was conveyed by Smith to Rigdon's 19-year-old daughter, since the source (attributed to Mormonism critic D. Michael Quinn) is biased, and since it does not jive with what is recorded in the History of the Church (HC; online here), Vol. 5, p.134-136.

My concerns are: (a) HC does not indicate this text was transmitted in a letter to Rigdon's daughter; in fact, it appears to be a discourse from Smith titled Happiness. (b) There is also a small difference (in bold) below, and crucial context is missing.

Comparison of text from Quinn and History of the Church

Quinn: "that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another. God said thou shalt not kill—at another time he said thou shalt utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the elders of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right...even things which may be considered abominable to all those who do not understand the order of heaven."

Smith (HC):

"[Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received.] That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven [only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation]."

Are there any reliable sources that indicate the text was in fact conveyed to Rigdon's daughter in the circumstances described by Quinn? If not, the text (which is supported by both sources) can stay, but the story about the polygamous proposal should be removed from the footnote. Regards —Eustress talk 06:27, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I've quoted and cited Brodie, which is Wikipedia truth unless proved otherwise. Brodie says "Nancy gave this letter to Francis Higbee, who turned it over to Bennett, who in turn published it in his History of the Saints. It was unsigned, and in the handwriting of Willard Richards. The Utah Church published it as an essay on 'Happiness' ostensibly written by Joseph Smith, in the History of the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 134-6, with the cryptic editorial comment: 'It is not positively known what occasioned the writing of this essay.'" However, it seems Bennett's version says "children of the kingdom" rather than "elders of the kingdom." (The differing versions may "jive" even if they don't "jibe" :)--John Foxe (talk) 00:05, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Support from a source attributed to another person (Brodie) excommunicated from the LDS Church is not what I had in mind for reliability -- (btw, I see no Brodie 1973 in References) -- and http://www.truthandgrace.com (Bennett) is not reliable either. A reliable source is still needed to corroborate the story. —Eustress talk 04:28, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Brodie is WP:RS. No blustering about her being excommunicated from the LDS Church can affect that. You're certainly familiar enough with Wikipedia to know that secondary sources trump primary ones. Brodie is "true" unless you can prove otherwise. (My error on the publication date.)--John Foxe (talk) 11:53, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Brodie meets the independent criterion for a RS, given her history. —Eustress talk 19:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Both Brodie and Bushman are peer-reviewed biographies published by Alfred A. Knopf (exactly 60 years apart, interestingly enough). If Brodie's not WP:RS then Bushman isn't either.
How about Richard N. Ostling and Joan K. Osling, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise (HarperSanFrancisco, 1999)? "Smith invited Nancy into a private room at a printing office, locked the door behind them, and presented her with his proposal, including the unusual appeal that God had revealed to him that she was to be his wife. Nancy had been forewarned by Mayor John C. Bennett, who also found her attractive. (She did not respond to Bennett either.) Nancy threatened to raise a ruckus if Smith did not unlock the door and let her go. The next day Smith sent Nancy a letter attempting to coax her with the argument that 'happiness is the object and design of our existence.'....Nancy's story is corroborated not only by the letter and her father's testimony but by her brother John, her brother-in-law George W. Robinson, and Orson Pratt."(65)--John Foxe (talk) 20:58, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that source seems more independent to me, although it would be nice to know to what they attribute their research. You've got quite the library over there, Foxe. —Eustress talk 21:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I also prefer the Ostlings' treatment to Brodie's, though judging from the similarities in the passage, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using her book as a reference. As far as I can tell they both cite the same three primary sources (Nancy Rigdon's brother, brother in-law, and Bennett). Bushman, by the way, also uses the quote on page 441 of his book, saying that Smith explained to Nancy, who had refused his proposal of marriage, how he justified the apparent breach of moral code.
I am a little concerned with this edit. It seems to be using the statement as a coat rack on which to hang Brodie's sensational telling. After all, what Brodie calls Smith's "mistake," Bushman uses to explore his religious thought. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:38, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I've traded the Brodie quotation for the Ostlings'.--John Foxe (talk) 00:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Smith's childhood illness

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

When the article mentions Smith's childhood illness, it says that it occurred when Smith was eight. However, according to "Church History in the Fulness of Times," pg. 23, it states that Smith was seven, or in his eighth year. I think some consensus ought to be reached about this. A minor point, to be sure, but still important. I believe I saw a source in the article for the claim that he was eight, but now we have this other source that says he was seven. What should be done about this? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Bushman said the typhoid epidemic hit the upper Connecticut Valley in 1812-13 and that the "fever left six-year-old Joseph after two weeks." Then after the operation, Bushman says that from "age seven to ten" Smith hobbled around on crutches. (20-21).--John Foxe (talk) 00:18, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Merge "ethics" and "legacy" sections

Latest comment: 12 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

I'd like to merge the section on "Ethics and behavior" with the "Legacy" section that immediately follows it. Here's my reasoning: The Ethics section is currently very short, and in a nutshell says that Smith believed earthly law was superseded by revelation. The Legacy section gives several contrasting views of Smith from the point of view of Evangelical Christians (liar or lunatic), Mormons (prophet and "choice seer"), and people in his day (fraud, etc.). I would like to modify the section to reflect some of the scholarly views I've found, like the complex but impetuous religious thinker (Bushman), the "pious deceiver" (Vogel), and the opportunist (Brodie). I'd like to start the section stating that it's unlikely that there will ever be consensus on Smith's character and achievements, but then give some of the contrasting views. The "Ethics" are closely tied to the character, so that material shouldn't be hard to work in. Thoughts? ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to see a sample of what you have in mind before I decide whether or not I'd be in favor of it. Could you maybe post that here for discussion? Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 07:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
The draft I'm working on is located here if you'd like to check it out. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Having looked it over, it seems a bit too heavy on the anti-Mormon POV, but it looks like it still is in progress. So I will reserve forming an opinion until it is finished. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
It is still in progress. A couple of the ref tags are still empty :-) ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I realized today as I was working on the draft that the two sections are going to be harder to merge than I thought. I was at a point where I had footnoted most of the "ethics" material, and it still wasn't fitting quite right. I think the ethics material is important, so I've decided not to try to merge the sections. I've done a lot of work on the "Legacy" section, though, and I'd still like to rework some of that in the article. I also think the subsection heading "Ethics and behavior" should be changed to "Ethics." The section doesn't talk a whole lot about behavior, and it's under the section of "Distinctive views and teachings" and "behavior" isn't really a teaching or a view. ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I've made an edit to the Impact/Legacy section that tries to bring in a more scholarly point of view. I've removed some of the stuff about Smith being "second only to Jesus" (not very scholarly), accused of mishandling money (not really part of his legacy or impact, and not mentioned by scholars as being such), being exalted (cited to Brigham Young and John Taylor, and again, not scholarly), and some of the "choice seer" "prior to the millennium" peacock-ish wording. I've also added some of the scholarly views mentioned above and shuffled the order a little. Feel free to revert if you think it still needs work, or if you have objections. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
As always, outstanding work, Adjwilley. Best, A Sniper (talk) 20:54, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Adjwilley, I think the purpose of the "ethics" section is different from that of the "legacy" section, and I don't think the two mix well. Possibly, the Ethics section could merge with "Political views," given that the Ethics section is really about Smith's views about earthly law. It also ties in with his theocratic views. That would make the Political views section rather large. But I don't think we need the long primary source quotation that is currently in the Ethics section.
I think the part about Smith being "second only to Jesus" is an important point for the Legacy section, although perhaps what was there originally could be improved. I have added it back, but revised the prose. COGDEN 20:45, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I discovered that one while I was trying to merge the two, so I gave up on the merging part. I agree about the long quote, and could also see merging Ethics w/ Political views. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Recent edit skirmish (charismatic and inventive)

Latest comment: 12 years ago9 comments6 people in discussion

There have been some recent edits ([1], [2]) that challenge the statement that historians view Smith as one of the most charismatic and inventive figures in American religious history. It seems User:Cush's view is that only Mormons view him as such, while real "mainstream" historians view Smith as a "fraud, con-man, and religious nutjob". This goes contrary to what I've read in the sources, where no matter what the author's take on Smith, they almost always acknowledge his genius/charisma/importance/impact. Take, for instance, the following non-Mormon historians (who, I'd guess, many Mormons would call "anti-Mormon"):

  • Bloom (1992), who says, Smith "surpassed all Americans, before or since, in the possession and expression of what could be called the religion-making imagination," and had charisma "to a degree unsurpassed in American history" (pp. 96-99)
  • Abanes (2003), who notes that even Smith's harshest critics acknowledge his inventive genius (p. 7)
  • Persuitte (2000), calling Smith "one of the most controversial and enigmatic figures ever to appear in American history" (p. 1)
  • Remini (2002), calling Smith "the most important reformer and innovator in American religious history". (p. ix)

Additionally, the view that Smith was a creative genius should not be ascribed to his followers, particularly since many would see such a view as undermining their belief (that the Book of Mormon was a translation, not a composition). ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Please post text excerpts from these authors. Then demonstrate that these represent the consensus among historians (i.e. scientists in the field of historical research). Then demonstrate that "charismatic and inventive" does not mean deceptive. From your list only Remini is a historian. Bloom is a literary critic, not a historian. Abanes is a journalist, not a historian. Persuitte is a writer, not a historian. ♆ CUSH ♆ 21:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I have posted the page numbers for these authors, as you requested. I can provide more if you'd like. Whether or not these authors meet your definition of "historian", they have been identified by the community as reliable sources on Joseph Smith. Rather than me trying to demonstrate a consensus among all the sources, why don't we just take Abanes's statement at face value, that "even Smith's harshest critics acknowledge his inventive genius." I am unable to demonstrate that "charismatic and inventive" doesn't rule out "deceptive" because it doesn't. The point is that no matter whether the sources view Smith as a prophet of God, a "pious fraud", or "deliberate deceiver", they all agree that Smith was larger than life, in some respect. "Con man" just doesn't do it justice. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:24, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Parenthetical note: 72Dino's revert to the older version took out one improvement I felt was helpful, namely the qualifying word religious. Smith was the most charismatic and inventive figure in American religious history. If nobody objects and this discussion doesn't go anywhere for a day or so, I'd like to add the word back. ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have researched and written a fair bit in this area, and I agree that there is a general consensus among modern historians and researchers that Smith was "one of the most charismatic and inventive figures in American religious history". The view that he was a "fraud, con-man, and religious nutjob" was very common in the 19th century, but the current views are far more nuanced (and NPOV, I would say). I also agree that Mormons do not generally share the view that he was "charismatic and inventive", as that tends to undermine what they believe about the source of the message that they say Smith was the bearer of. This looks like a situation where Cush's personal opinions about Smith are coloring the dispute. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Hmph. There it goes again. I've been planning on trimming the Lead back for quite a while anyway, and that's one of the parts that was going to go. It's supposed to be 3-4 paragraphs, and it's currently 6. Perhaps this will motivate me to get it done :-) ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:04, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree, and the inordinate size of the lead is top on my list of things that should be fixed. It just seems to naturally get bloated as a matter of entropy. COGDEN 20:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
I was the one who objected to the description in question, primarily because that's how religious scholars view him, NOT his followers. So I altered the edit to reflect that. If the consensus can come up with a better, more acceptable way to word it, that's fine with me. Thanks, and sorry for the problems this "skirmish" has caused. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 06:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Surely the two are not mutually exclusive - one can be charismatic and inventive while also being a fraud and nutjob? There's Ron Wyatt, for example - undeniably a fraud, doubtless a nutjob, yet one with many followers, and undeniably inventive (he sold a rock outcrop as Noah's Ark, and his followers bought it). Or in another field, [[Bernie Madoff] - he and Wyatt and Smith have a vast amount in common, differing merely in their chosen fields (archaeology, religion, finance) and impact (I doubt that much will live on after Madoff). 120.18.51.110 (talk) 10:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Shortening the lead

Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

The lead is currently too long, as Adjwilley pointed out, and I wanted to have a discussion of how to best shorten it. I haven't read through it in a while, and I think that has let me see it with fresh eyes. I think the main problem with it is that it has too much granular detail on Smith's history, and not enough broad perspective. It is a "can't see the forest for the trees" introduction, and it focuses too much on the church, rather than Smith himself. There are certain details that are not that important. I don't think we need to name his parents, for example. The main points I think we do need to hit, at least briefly, are as follows:

  • Christian and folk magic background, Golden plates/Book of Mormon, Church of Christ, Zion
  • Kirtland defection, Mormon War, Nauvoo, polygamy, theocracy, death
  • Latter Day Saint faiths, revelations

I also want to frame all this in terms of Smith personally, rather than Mormons as a whole. I know this is a tall order to do this in 3-4 paragraphs, but I don't see why it can't be done. COGDEN 21:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with most of this. I had begun working on a rough draft with four paragraphs (the first being quite short). The first paragraph had the things that Smith was most notable for (founding church, Book of Mormon, basically the bare necessities). The second covered early life through 1830. The third covered Kirtland through Nauvoo, and the fourth covered the revelations, impact, and denominations. In outline form (like COgden's above) it looked like:
  • Joseph Smith, Jr. (December 23, 1805 – June 27, 1844) was an American religious leader and founder of Mormonism, the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement. At age twenty-four Smith published the Book of Mormon, and in the next fourteen years he gathered thousands of followers, built cities and temples, and created a religious culture that survived his death.
  • Born in Sharon, moved to NY, Christian revivalism, belief in visions, folk religious practices, 1820 visions, golden plates, Book of Mormon, organized church
  • Move to Kirtland, outpost in Missouri (Zion), Bank failure, move to Missouri, war, Mormons expelled, prison, Nauvoo, headed church and state, Expositor/polygamy, death.
  • Last paragraph unchanged so far (scripture, unique teachings, regarded as prophet, denominations)
So yeah, basically what COgden said, but in a little more detail, and with a short introductory paragraph. One problem with my draft is that the 3rd paragraph is still quite long.
Also a question to COgden: How do you want to go about editing this? I have a nasty habit of editing stuff in my userspace, but that usually results in me making all the changes, whereas I'd rather have you write this one. Do we just dive in and start editing the article, or what? ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Adjwilley, I think your edits are a good improvement. I may have a few further edits, if I can find the time. COGDEN 00:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Necromancy, charletonism, divining treasure, and imposter conviction

Latest comment: 12 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Why is this important period in Smith's early life breezed over with one clause on Folk religion. Certainly his conviction in New York for being an imposter is notable. — GabeMc (talk) 02:55, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Just a note: As far as I can tell, there's a pretty good consensus that there's not a consensus that Smith was convicted for being an imposter. He was brought to trial, yes, but from there the accounts differ. Also, in my opinion, Smith is most notable for founding a successful religion. The other aspects of his life (like the Bainbridge trial) are notable only because he's notable for this. ~Adjwilley (talk) 03:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
That's my understanding as well—that the result of the Bainbridge court proceedings is disputed and in doubt and generally unclear. I think it could warrant a sentence in the section on early life. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be some contention if it was even an actual trial. Smith was in fact had many different charges made against him throughout his life. I am not sure one is more important than another; allegations were made consistently against him. The allegations in question occurred and Smith was not even in attendance as I recall. Was this a sort of pretrial? I cannot remember all the facts; it has been decades since I read in depth on it. If it is to be discussed it should be presented in context to its disputed historical accuracy.--StormRider 07:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Google "March 20, 1826—New York vs. Joseph Smith", many, many sources account this story, and some even have the court transcript. LDS historian Leonard Arrington conceded that Judge Neely indeed drew up the bill himself. There are accusations by some sources that writers sympathetic to Mormons have been portraying the trial transcript as a hoax/false allegation, despite the evidence. — GabeMc (talk) 22:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
What sort of edit is being proposed? If we have something concrete to consider it would probably clarify the situation. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, the entire period (folk religion) is currently breezed over in couple sentences that really do not clarify if he was convicted or just accused, or if he claimed to possess super-natural powers, and by what source his powers were derived. "Meanwhile, Smith continued traveling to western New York and Pennsylvania as a treasure seeker and a farmhand.[29] In 1826, he was brought before a court in Chenango County, New York, for "glass-looking," or pretending to find lost treasure.[30] In 1826, he was brought before a court in Chenango County, New York, for "glass-looking," or pretending to find lost treasure.[30]" This should at the very least be expanded to include the outcome of the court case against him, and some details about why he was served in the first place. Also, "treasure hunting" does not explain or even hint that his ability, he claimed, was super-natural. Anybody with a metal detector can be a treasure hunter, that does not mean they wield magical powers. This passage almost covers it, "The Smith family supplemented its meager farm income by treasure-digging. Joseph claimed an ability to use seer stones for locating lost items and buried treasure.[23] To do so, Smith would put a stone in a white stovepipe hat and would then see the required information in reflections given off by the stone.[24]" But it seems to imply that he actually saw information in the stone's reflection. — GabeMc (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Though there is academic consensus that some sort of trial occurred, there is no consensus on what the outcome was (guilty, not-guilty, fined, thrown-out, etc.). This is why the paragraph you cited says nothing about the outcome of the court case. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I have added a footnote to the paragraph in question clarifying this. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Fraud reference

Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
  • American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America by Colin Woodard 2011 [3]

Excerpt "After being arrested for defrauding his clients, Joseph Smith Jr. found a set of golden plates in a hillside in Manchester, New York (others were not allowed to see them), which revealed to him (in a language only he could read) that Jesus would return to Independence, Missouri."

99.119.128.213 (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

That is probably one of the worst summaries of Joseph Smith that I have ever read and it is full of errors. First, several people saw the plates. Second, Smith never said he could read the texts, he says he translated them by the gift and power of God. Third, the language on Jesus is taken completely out of context. Jesus' second coming? appearing in the temple? the location of Zion? Which one is being discussed? Which arrest is being talked about? This really cannot be considered a reputable source with so many flagrant errors. -StormRider 06:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

This article is so obviously massaged and managed by LDS zealots that people coming here to learn about this man are only going to get this carefully sanitized end-run of the truth. Clearly, it doesn't matter what source is used that frankly discusses the ridiculous impossibility of this charlatan's fabricated tales, it won't be allowed to stand in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.232.74.109 (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

That is absurd. There are many of us that have edited here for years who are not Mormon. We have found a great balance between those zealots who wish to turn the article into an LDS tract with those smug anti-Mormons who have their own agendas. Best, A Sniper (talk) 21:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Latest comment: 12 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

The first sentence does not mention that Joseph Smith, Jr, started The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It mentions Mormonism and Latter Day Saint movement, neither of which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (LDS Church). — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I was the person who did most of the writing in the last 2 rewrites of the Lead, so I can tell you some of my reasons. First, it is worthy of note that the church is the last link in the last paragraph of the Lead, which is arguably a fairly prominent place (not so much as the first paragraph, but more than the 2nd and 3rd). I was trying to keep the 1st paragraph as short as possible, and naming Mormonism, Latter Day Saint movement, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in two sentences is really hard to do in a concise way without muddying the waters with how they are all related to each other. Also, because several churches claimed succession, the consensus in the community has been that they should not be elbowed out (which is why the weird/confusing term "Latter Day Saint movement" is so often used). I realize there are good arguments on both sides of this, including the argument that Smith is most notable for the LDS Church, more so than the LDS movement or the other churches. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a discussion, and perhaps with some creativity an acceptable wording can be found. (The last one seemed pretty awkward, which is why I reverted.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Charles Edwin Shipp, it is for the reasons Adjwilley has mentioned that it appears as awkward as it does. If I recall correctly, at one point the lede did mention that the two largest denominations claiming Smith as founder are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). Best, A Sniper (talk) 16:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that referring to the LDS Church is necessary or desired in the lead. Not many potential readers are familiar with the name of the LDS Church, but they are far more familiar with the term "Mormon" or "Mormonism." Even if we did refer to the LDS Church, we would also have to refer to Mormonism, and probably the Latter Day Saint movement, and that would be redundant. COGDEN 02:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
The main relevance that Smith has today is that he is claimed as the founder of two church organizations today, not to mention all the others. Not to list at least the two largest in the lede seems rather limiting. Best, A Sniper (talk) 14:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
This topic reminds me a little bit like making sure the tail wags the dog. It is very clear that IF someone knows about Joseph Smith they know about it because of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It seems to strain to even include the Community of Christ because it has moved so far away from its beginnings and, frankly, it is just so much smaller.
Alternatively, for those who study history, Joseph Smith founded a church that latter splintered into many churches. This splintering has been termed the Latter Day Saint movement. Some editors feel that we need to take care of the 2% to 3% of adherents, not elbow them out of the away. This is the tail wagging the dog. Were it not for the LDS Church, Joseph Smith would have already been forgotten. His run for the presidency, his arrest in Nauvoo, his murder in Carthage become mere tidbits of trivia in American history.
Article introductions should summarize the most important facts found in what follows and what readers would most want to know. When well written it should capture their attention and give them a reason to read further. If readers know anything, they know about the LDS Church because of its sheer size, missionary program, BYU, politics, polygamy, politics, broadway play, poitics...did I mention politics? Just a joke and no interest in recentism. -StormRider 06:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
But the point is that more people know about Mormons, or Mormonism, than know about the LDS Church, the awkward name of which is unfamiliar to most people. And Mormonism is broader than the LDS Church, so it makes to use the broadest, most inclusive and accurate statement possible. COGDEN 09:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

First vision edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

For those not familiar with the history here, there was a long argument over this (preserved in Archive 20) that eventually resulted in my making this edit as a compromise between myself and John Foxe. The paragraph has been fairly stable since then, though several footnotes were cropped out at one point. Anyway, a recent publication brought the fact to my attention that a key source is being quoted incorrectly. Currently the footnote reads,

"Mormon historian James B. Allen also argues that the First Vision 'did not figure prominently in any evangelistic endeavors by the Church until the 1880s'".

What Allen actually says is,

"By the 1850's the story of the vision had become an important part of church literature. In 1851 it appeared in the first edition of the Pearl of Great Price, published in England by Franklin D. Richards. This volume was accepted as one of the “standard works” of the Mormon Church in 1880. By this time, obviously, the story had become well known both to members and non-members alike and was being used as a basic missionary tool." [4]

Allen explicitly refutes the idea being attributed to him here at least twice more in the course of the article. Anyway, I'm not sure where the misunderstanding/confusion happened, but because it figured so prominently into the compromise, I'm in effect reneging on that, and restoring the earlier version (with a couple tweaks). As always, if anybody disagrees, feel free to revert and discuss, or simply discuss. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

As a quick note, the same reference also appears to be misquoted in the First Vision article, and possibly in Mormons (footnote 36) and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (footnote 31). --FyzixFighter (talk) 19:24, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
@Adjwilley: Seems like a reasonable change, particularly regarding the Allen reference. I think that the paragraph could stand some further reworking, though, mainly for clarity. I would like to see it go something roughly like this:
About 1820, Smith later recalled having an epiphany that resolved his sense of religious confusion and personal guilt. Praying in a wooded area near his home, he said he saw a vision in which a being told him his sins were forgiven, and telling him that all contemporary churches had "turned aside from the gospel." Smith said he told an unreceptive preacher about the experience, but otherwise the experience was essentially unknown, including to most Mormons, until the 1840s. Although Smith probably originally understood the event as a personal conversion, this "First Vision" would later grow in importance among Mormons, who now widely understand the vision to be the founding event of Mormonism.
The footnotes would have to be finessed, and maybe the language tweaked a bit here and there. Also, I would like, if possible, to put something in the previous paragraph stating that because of the religious divisions in his family and community, Smith was conflicted about the benefit of organized religion. I am guessing that there is a consensus for that statement, but I don't know a source that says this in quite this way. COGDEN 10:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. I'll get to work on it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I did it, with a few small changes. ~Adjwilley (talk) 03:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
"In the minds of Latter-day Saints today, the events of that morning marked the beginning of the restoration of the Gospel and the commencement of a new dispensation. The vision is called the First Vision because of its place at the beginning of a series of revelations. But to understand how Joseph Smith's life unfolded, it must be kept in mind that in 1820 he did not know this was the First Vision, nor could he be expected to grasp fully everything that was said to him. Like anyone else, he first understood a new experience in terms of his own needs and his own background." -- Richard L. Bushman, "Joseph Smith and The Beginnings of Mormonism." p. 56. How is that for wording? Playerpage (talk) 14:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Edits to the Impact section

Latest comment: 12 years ago13 comments7 people in discussion

User:Arrivisto has made a few edits to the article recently, most of which I have reverted. The first edit (3 days ago) had several problems that I indicated in my edit summary. [5] The second string of edits had various problems with Weight and NPOV, and moved information around in a way that made it hard to see what exactly was changed. (I did notice that the "alleged" was removed in "alleged treason".) Anyway, I reverted those edits too, but fixed a couple problems that had been pointed out, and added a bit about Dawkins et al dismissing Smith as a charlatan.

Anyway I figured I'd start a section here on the talk page where these edits can be discussed. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:41, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

You did the right thing. I agree with all the edits you made. Is there something in particular you are concerned about? If so, the relevant passages should be copied and discussed here. It is difficult to know what specifically you want discussed if the relevant passages are not featured here. So that would be my suggestion. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 17:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
I rearranged text so that pros were in one part, and cons in another. The revert goes back to soft-soapery. Why put a citation needed on Dawkins & Hitchens, when you have deleted wikilinks to their best-selling works where the critiques can be found? The quote "Mormon and non-Mormon biographers agree that Smith was one of the most influential, charismatic, and innovative figures in American religious history.[436]" may have a ref, but it is pure POV and advertising. This is wikipedia, not a pamphlet for the Mormons. Smith is widely regarded as a mountebank and it should be possible for that fact to be properly represented. Arrivisto (talk) 17:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
For Dawkins & Hitchens, their claims should be supported inline with regular citations with page numbers, publishers, etc. – not with links to their books. The 436 ref you mentioned is supported by four well-respected scholarly sources, and if it's POV, it's certainly not pro-Mormon POV (Mormons would rather view Smith as an inspired prophet than a charismatic innovator.) As for whether Smith was a prophet of God or a mountebank and fraud: for the purposes of Wikipedia, we try not to take a stand either way. Mormons say prophet. Evangelical Christians say fraud. Most people don't care. Wikipedia keeps a neutral point of view. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Fraud and mountebank

I feel like I should further explain my rational for reverting this recent edit to the Lead. The main problem is that it's just not that black and white. Yes, plenty of people think he was a fraud, but the actual scholars and historians who have studied him would never make a statement like that. But before I get too far, let me outline the premises I'm basing my arguments on.

  • For the purposes of Wikipedia, scholarly views and opinions are the ones that count. Wikipedia should reflect point of view of the best experts in the relevant field, not popular opinion.
  • The Lead section of an article should summarize the article, focusing primarily on the aspects that make the subject notable.

Ok. Now let's take the phrase "critics regard him as a fraud and mountebank." Does that make Smith notable? I would argue no. If being regarded as a fraud and mountebank made someone notable than every self-proclaimed prophet and crank would get their own Wikipedia article. What makes Smith notable is that he started a major religion that survived his death; he's not notable because people think he's a fraud.

Now back to the scholars. There are many scholars–Mormon and non-Mormon–who have written about Smith. (Recent ones have done some really excellent work.) But regardless of the scholars' religion or point of view, they stop short of calling him an outright fraud. For instance, Dan Vogel, an ex-Mormon, calls Smith a "pious fraud" or somebody who deceives in God's name because they feel called to do so for a good purpose. That's much more nuanced than "fraud and mountebank". Anyway, if you disagree with my logic or my premises, I'd be happy to discuss it further. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I have restored the critique in the intro. To say "Smith's legacy includes a number of religious denominations, the largest of which is the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." is sophistry. You say, "What makes Smith notable is that he started a major religion..."; but what critics find notable is that he has managed to convince so many people of his implausible story of golden plates. Please remember, this is Wikipedia, and articles should not become adverts for the topic. It is getting as hard to get balance on this topic as it is to criticise the pseudo-religion of Scientology. Arrivisto (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if you would address the substance of my arguments. References to sophistry and Scientology are red herrings and the claim about critics is still unsupported. Please directly address my concern about the lack of reliable, scholarly sources calling Smith a "fraud and mountebank". ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:47, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if you would stop censoring history.71.203.186.4 (talk) 04:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
It's been more than a month and Adjwilley has not been answered. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 14:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
I've got issues on both sides. First off, Arrivisto, how do you regard that quote as sophistry? There are several sects of the LDS church, the largest is the LDS branch proper, and Joseph Smith is known for starting it. Not much subtlety or argumentative subject there. Adjwilley, are you seriously trying to use quotes of Smith being called a fraud to argue against calling him a fraud? That's a good example of sophistry. How nuanced can you get? If he has been called a fraud by reputable sources, and that is a large part of the controversy around Joseph Smith, then it seems appropriate that this be mentioned in the article and referred to in the lead. Padillah (talk) 15:58, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
I most certainly am not arguing against using the language of sources. You will note that the article currently calls him both a "pious fraud" and a "mythmaker" (in a paragraph that I wrote, incidentally). My argument above was that he has not been called an outright "fraud and mountebank" in any reliable sources that I've seen. I believe that if the sources are nuanced the article should be as well. (We certainly shouldn't go beyond what the sources say in any case.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

None of this changes the fact that he irrefutably was convicted of fraud70.104.193.137 (talk) 03:14, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with this irrefutable conviction. When did it occur? ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:18, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Perfecting the lead

Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

It has been a while since I read through the lead, and I think we are very close to getting it just about perfect. And I know it has been pretty stable for quite a long time. On the micro-level, it is great. But after reading it through it with fresh eyes, I am beginning to see that perhaps the third paragraph is a little problematic.

That one paragraph has an incredible amount of history, from 1831 to 1844, and it seems to just pack everything in like a sardine can. It does this very efficiently and remarkably evenhandedly, and I hate to undo all the work we have put into it, but I think it's just too much. Plus, it is focused more on the church than upon Smith himself.

Are we trying to do too much in the third paragraph? What if we just zoomed out a little bit and used a bigger-picture approach to the 1831-44 era? I'm not sure I have the answers on how to do this, but here is a very rough suggestion that illustrates sort of what I'm thinking:

In 1831, Smith and his growing flock of followers moved west with plans to build a communalistic American Zion. They gathered in Kirtland, Ohio, and also established an outpost in Independence, Missouri, intended to be Zion's "center place". During the 1830s, Smith sent out missionaries, published revelations, and supervised construction of an expensive temple. However, due to a financial scandal and violent skirmishes with angry non-Mormon Missourians, Smith's dreams of building Zion in Missouri and Ohio failed by the end of the decade. In the early 1840s, Smith established a new city called Nauvoo, Illinois, where he served as mayor and militia commander. In 1844, Smith and the Nauvoo City Council angered non-Mormons by destroying a printing press after it was used to publish an exposé critical of Smith's power and practice of polygamy. During the ensuing turmoil, Smith was imprisoned in Carthage, Illinois, and killed when a mob stormed the jailhouse.

COGDEN 02:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

This seems reasonable to me, though I'd probably tweak some parts ever so slightly. I've been fairly busy trying to graduate, but this is on my to-do list. (sorry for the slow response.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:11, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I've made the change, with two alterations (for small issues with WP:Words). I dropped the words "growing flock of" in "growing flock of followers" because "flock" seemed like an unnecessary euphemism, and I changed the "financial scandal" to "collapse of a church-sponsored bank" because it is more precise. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Questions, section Legacy - Impact

Latest comment: 12 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion

Impressing article, have some comments/questions. I will follow this article for some time, as the Norwegian article on same topic need some improvements. Is it some reason to why the sentence "Smith's role in the Latter Day Saint religion was comparable to that of Muhammad in early Islam" is using was, and not is?

And reference 428, Bushman, lacks page reference, or is "xx" correct page reference? Grrahnbahr (talk) 13:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. I think "was" and "is" both work in the sentence. I like "was" better, because I think it's slightly more accurate. (Joseph Smith is not the "seal of the prophets" in Mormonism, but he was the founder who received new revelations, etc.)

"xx" is the correct page number. (It's in the Preface.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 14:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The ones missing are Don Carlos (who died at age 14 months) and a stillborn male child. I don't know the policy on using married vs. maiden names, but I'll check. ~Adjwilley (talk) 14:31, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I've fixed both problems. I added a footnote mentioning the two sons and switched Emma Hale Smith to Emma Hale at the beginning of the paragraph. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:01, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. It looks like I make some work for you here. I suggest to rewrite the paragraph, to something like "she gave birth to nine children, five of them died before reaching the age of two". Grrahnbahr (talk) 15:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
  • It is some problems with the refs. Ref 452 and 453 (current revision) are pretty much about the same, and still used twice in a sentence. ref 461 is included in ref 460, but in different paragraphs. Regarding ref 460/461, Church history 3 pp. 355-56, is this the same work as History of the Church? What edition is used as a source? According to History of the Church vol 3, pp 355-56, it is nothing about the suggestions in the articles, where the references are used, but for all I know, it could be wrong edition or book. Grrahnbahr (talk) 15:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, the article has a pretty bad case of citation overkill. There used to be a lot of edit warring, and people would redundantly cite every phrase to make sure their version stuck. I've combined the 452 and 453 references, and took the History of the Church out of the 460 reference since it was tangential. I also tracked down the book in Google and linked it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Joseph Smith/GA4. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Shii (talk · contribs) 07:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:  
    The article gives all the important details of Smith's story that are relevant to the general public-- in other words, what Wikipedia is supposed to do. In the previous GA review, in early 2011, the lede was questioned; this is now fixed.
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:  
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:  
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:  
    And obviously so.
    C. No original research:  
    This has been rigorously checked over the years.
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:  
    This article does the impossible: it presents Smith's life and his doctrine, and his impact on American culture, in the space of less than 100,000 words. I say that its current form is very well done. The aspects of Smith's doctrine chosen -- theology, ritual, family and polygamy (mergable?), politics, and ethics -- are precisely those that a general reader would want to know about from a neutral perspective.
    B. Focused:  
    I consider this article as focused as a GA ought to be. FA has stricter requirements with regards to making each section small enough to be digested but I understand those would be very hard decisions with this article. The previous reviewer said that the article is too focused on Mormonism. This may be true, but Joseph Smith is famous as the founder of Mormonism. People do not come to this article to learn pointless trivia about his life. For future improvement, I recommend that the tiny details about Charles Anthon, Parly Pratt's memories, etc., be better condensed, but at present it is doing the job it needs to do.
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:  
    Readers of this article will either be Mormon or non-Mormon, and Wikipedians cannot help that. The article should present clearly determined facts with their appropriate context so that both kinds of readers understand why the article was written this way. For Mormon critiques I consulted FAIRMormon.org and found that (1) they considered the article "significantly improved" since 2009, (2) their current complaints are minor, and (3) they note that the article cites a number of critical sources, but do not find issues with the facts that those sources discuss. I therefore find that this article is widely considered neutral, even by serious Mormon apologists, which is quite an accomplishment.
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:  
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:  
    Images in the "Revelations" section seem merely illustrative but this is not part of the GA criteria. Please consider this for FA.
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:  
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:  
    The "good article" standard applies to any and all articles with a complete and well-formed summary that would belong in a good encyclopedia. The previous reviewer was looking at a worse article, over a year ago, but he still gave the editors a hard time in what is supposed to be an informal process. This article is certainly a good article. I say it is very close to achieving the "featured" status. Congratulations to all editors involved and keep pushing this towards FA. Shii (tock) 07:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Emma Smith

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Greetings editors. Just a request if a couple of you could come over to the Emma Smith page and assist. An editor keeps insisting that in 1838 the name of the church was changed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, citing the current LDS D&C as the reference. I pointed out that the name as adopted in 1838 was actually the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and that the addition of the capitalized 'The' and use of 'Latter-day' did not occur until several years later by the church in Utah. Of course I added a couple of refs to support this fact. Best, A Sniper (talk) 03:49, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

No assistance is needed. Nothing is being insisted on, or ever was, just an apparent oversight. Was just trying to add a link that seemed the natural course of succession, without entire context. Am very aware of the fact that "The" and "Latter-day" use came later. It's all good. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:13, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Joseph Smith as a Child Rapist/Pedophile

Latest comment: 11 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

I don't see any mention of the well documented plurality of Smith's forced underage mariages, both to himself and others, constituting rape, statutory rape and accomplice to rape of a minor. We see contemporarily that the FLDS, namely Warren Jeffs, an adherent to Smith's teachings, charged and convicted of these very crimes. It is noteworthy and biographical. For a change someone with a NPOV and not someone who has 30+ or 300+ contextual edits on this page and related wikis tackle this with the excellent documentation that exists. Thanks! 76.106.2.110 (talk) 07:08, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I think some of the claims outlined above are somewhat anachronistic. "Statutory rape" did not exist in the jurisdictions Smith lived in in the 1830s and 1840s; indeed, at the time, it was relatively common for teenaged women to marry adult men. You'll be very hard pressed to find a NPOV third-party source which calls Smith a pedophile or a rapist. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:14, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Sensationalism is the venue of tabloid press, but has no place in anything that attempts to be an encyclopedia such as Wikipedia. Personal blogs would be good for this also if you have one. Do you have any scholarly, reputable writings to support any of your claims? What are the exact teachings of Smith that would also support committing such acts? Let's start there and then we can move on with NPOV that you desire. -StormRider 10:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
And again, wiki's in-crowd suppresses the truth to maintain the status quo. You have no grounds to call this "sensationalism," you're just mad that your prophet isn't perfect. 71.203.186.4 (talk) 04:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
If you have some neutral point-of-view, reliable, third-party sources that describe Smith as a pedophile, rapist, etc.—I would be happy to examine them and consider how the information could be included in the article. I don't know about Storm Rider, but Smith is not "my prophet", and it's obvious that he was not perfect. (I think everyone would agree on that; whether or not anyone is "mad" about it is another issue, but not relevant here as far as I can see.) I note that the article already does mention Smith's polygamy, and it does mention the age of several of his wives at the time of marriage, one of which was 14. As I suggested above, was not charged or prosecuted with a crime related to these marriages, which today we might regard as "under-age" in some jurisdictions. (The minimum age for a woman to be married in Paraguay is still 14, as it is in some other places.) Given that we're dealing with a time that is over 150 years in the past, a claim of the crimes of pedophilia/statutory rape is somewhat anachronistic. I'm not clear on exactly what further is needed on these issues. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I guess the answer to the question is this Anon has nothing to support this view except his own opinion. When he has something scholarly to support such accusations there will be something to talk about. -StormRider 06:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Infobox merge

Latest comment: 11 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Most Latter Day Saint people, (not just LDS Church Members) use the Template:Infobox Latter Day Saint biography and Joseph Smith has Template:Latter Day Saint biography/Joseph Smith. therfore the template used on this page, Template:LDSInfobox/JS could could be merged very quickly into Template:Latter Day Saint biography/Joseph Smith. It would end up looking like this:

Before
{{LDSInfobox/JS}}
After
{{Latter Day Saint biography/Joseph Smith}}
{{LDSInfobox/JS}} {{Latter Day Saint biography/Joseph Smith }}

I think the change would be good, so that this pages infobox would expand and change just along with all the other lists that include Joseph Smith, which attach threw the Template:Infobox Latter Day Saint biography setup. However, whenever someone edits Joseph Smith there is a huge issue, so I tend to avoid it as much as possible. So if no one thinks it's a good idea, I wont make the change.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 17:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I support the proposed change. I think it would be very worthwhile. Let's see what the consensus decides. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 01:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
I will give it another day and see if anyone objects.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 15:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
It seems that no one objects, so I'm going to do it.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 14:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Questions About Joseph Smith's Alleged Revelations

Latest comment: 11 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion

It is clear that Smith is a polarizing figure. He is either unquestioningly accepted by the LDS faithful as a prophet, or he is branded a con man by detractors. To ignore these questions, as this article largely does, is a great disservice to the reader. This is a theme that needs exploration in ANY article about Smith, and is not really covered here. Criticisms and questions regarding Smith's status as a true prophet of God strike at the very heart of LDS belief, and there have been many, on their face, seemingly reasonable objections to that status.68.46.132.39 (talk) 02:06, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I made a number of edits to this page last year, but my contributions were quickly amended by the LDS faithful, and now I can't be bothered any more. This page is in grave danger of being a Mormon advertisement instead of a valid and balanced Wikipedia topic. Arrivisto (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
The problem with Mormonism (and pretty much any religion, for that matter) is that it has tons of zealous idiots (or idiotic zealots) defending it and nobody else really cares enough to argue with them. Arguing with stupid people is exhausting and any reasonable person gives up quickly. They rely on this.71.203.186.4 (talk) 02:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
The direction of these few comments is not entirely accurate since good editors who are LDS want the truth reflected here. There are valid questions from scholars, LDS and not, that can be discussed and added, after validation with acceptable references. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 02:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
It's also worth pointing out that LDS editors on this page still don't think this article reflects exactly how they would have liked to see it written, but you don't see them (us) calling for greater treatment of, for example, his enduring greatness in building a completely new religious denomination from basically nothing, his charisma, his impact on 19th century America, etc. etc. etc.
The real problem here, I believe is, as one editor has succinctly pointed out, "(T)here is just not much middle ground between Prophet and Imposter." —Trevdna (talk) 15:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
I think the anonymous user at the opening of this section raises a valid point. The places where I don't think we have done a good job yet in developing the structure of this article is that while we adequately tell Smith's story, we don't do a good job of describing what Smith means to the faithful, and we don't do a good job of framing the controversies associated with Smith. We have the "legacy" section, but I think it needs to be filled out, and I also think we need to add a history of the back-and-forth between critics and apologists, beginning with the newspapers in the 1830s, and moving forward through time to mention things like the Joseph Smith papers project. This would add a lot of material to the article, and we might have to spawn-off some sub-articles because the article is already pretty big (100 kB) and dense. COGDEN 09:53, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

New Sections: Joseph Smith can forgive sin and Joseph Smith's permission required to enter heaven.

Latest comment: 11 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion

Jessethearies, welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you enjoy your time here. I hope you don't take this personally, or as a sign of bad faith on the part of pro-Smith Mormon apologetics, but I'm debating removing your recent edits, for the simple fact that those are block quotations from later Mormon leaders, and there is no real evidence (of which I'm aware) that Smith ever taught those things himself.

Care to discuss? —Trevdna (talk) 17:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I am Pro-Mormon and a member of The LDS Church. President Young's words are binding just as President Smith's was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.199.138.131 (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
First - are you the same person as Jessetharies?
Second - those quotations weren't the words of Joseph Smith; they appear to be the words of other LDS Church leaders about Smith, after he had died. Is there any record that they were really Smith's own teachings about himself? That Smith, in his own lifetime, affirmed to have the power to remit sins or to deny entry to heaven? Because if not, then we could put it under President Young's article or Elder Hyde's article, but it doesn't belong here, in my opinion.
—Trevdna (talk) 01:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
@108.199.138.131, you don't have to answer the question about whether you are Jessetharies if you don't want to...if it is you, just be careful about editing logged out, as it causes people to become suspicious about Sockpuppetry. (See also WP:OUT)
I believe the main problem with the additions is that they come from primary sources without any secondary analysis. There is no indication that the belief is prevalent among followers of Joseph Smith, or that scholars interpret Hyde's and Young's statements in that manner. Also, as has been mentioned, putting those subsections in a section on Smith's teachings doesn't work, since the quotes aren't by Smith. ~Adjwilley (talk) 03:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


Sorry I didn't mean to edit and log out, but I had an emergency to attend to. Here is an article by Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research about the status of Joseph Smith in LDS belief. FAIR is a non-profit organization formed for the purpose of defending the Church. I don't mind where the information is put I just hope it gets out there for people to investigate.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Status_in_LDS_belief — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.199.138.131 (talk) 10:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Again i'm sorry I didn't know I was still logged out. Is there any way that my I.P. address can be taken down from the posts where I was logged out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jessethearies (talk • contribs) 10:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Follow the instructions at WP:Oversight to remove the IP address. You'll need to send an email. Also, don't forget to sign your comments by typing four tildes ~~~~ at the end. ~Adjwilley (talk) 13:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Adjwilley's point is a valid one; without any secondary analysis, it's unclear whether or not this was ever a widely held belief about Smith or not. You could certainly bring it up at the Brigham Young or Orson Hyde pages, but in addition to Adjwilley's concern, I doubt it would be notable enough to either one of their articles to justify inclusion there. —Trevdna (talk) 07:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Overcitation

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Both FAC reviewers so far have mentioned the overcitation in this article. I'd like to look for consensus here on the talk page before slashing and burning them - especially since I wasn't present for much of the POV warring that led to them, so I'm not as familiar with which ones are useful, and which ones are just left-overs. What would be the best way to reduce the overcitation?

I'm thinking, to begin with, that we eliminate all (or most) mid-sentence citations, and merge them with their citations that appear at the end of the sentence. Also, we could be much more selective on which long blockquotes we include in the citations themselves, or pare down lengthy blockquotes into shorter snippets.

Thoughts? Ideas? -Trevdna (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep, getting rid of the mid-sentence citations is probably a good way to start. I've started going through those section by section, combining them into a single ref at the end of the sentence, and eliminating the duplicates. If there's a lot of text in the citation that's trying to prove some obscure and loosely related point, I cut that as well. Don't worry about not having read all the talk page archives...fresh eyes are probably better anyway. Having every sentence punctuated by a citation is still a little on the side of overcite, but I don't think people will complain. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead paragraph for section

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I should probably provide an explanation for this edit. Initially I thought sourcing it would be easy, since sources already exist in the article saying the same things. I realized, however, that the two paragraphs are very redundant with the other stuff. The first paragraph (Smith was innovative and divisive) is redundant with the 2nd paragraph in the "Impact" section. The second paragraph about Smith's teachings evolving from temporal to spiritual is redundant with the last paragraph in the "Other revelations" subsection immediately above. Anyway, that's the reason I ended up just blanking it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks for explaining. I think the section looks bare without a lead, and I still think it would go over better in an FAC to have something there dealing with his body of teachings as a whole. Something so readers can get a feel for how his views/teachings, as a whole were/are viewed. I didn't mean for it to be viewed as redundant, but I was trying to give an overview. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I'd still like there to be something there, I'm just not sure exactly what. Any ideas?
Maybe we could prune the material from other sections if it's redundant? - Trevdna (talk) 15:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

One or two stones...why is this a big deal?

Latest comment: 11 years ago12 comments5 people in discussion

There seems to be some disagreement over whether Smith used one or two stones to dictate the Book of Mormon, how to present this in an image caption, and how specific the wording should be. I am currently supporting a wording saying that according to some accounts he used the the single brown stone for much of it. (I want the more general wording to reflect disagreement I've found in the sources.) User:Canstusdis seems to support a wording that drops all reference to the U&T and implies that only the single brown stone was used. I guess the question I have is, why is this such a big deal? It wasn't a big deal to Joseph Smith, who used the two interchangeably. It wasn't a big deal to the scribes or his followers, some of whom took to calling other stones urim and thummims. It isn't a big deal to most of the biographers, none of whom make a statement as direct as the one Canstusdis seems to be trying to be putting in the caption (perhaps a sign of WP:OR). It's not a big deal to Mormons...whether one stone or two stones were used, they still think the Book of Mormon was inspired. And it's not a big deal to non-Mormons...who cares if any stones were used at all: the Book of Mormon was a fabrication, and it was probably a manuscript in the hat anyway. So the question remains, why is this such a big deal, why is is so important, and why does this need to be highlighted in an image caption? ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment. I have watched this develop and see it as verging on WP:LEW territory (not to suggest that editors are edit warring—but rather to suggest that the conflict is lame). I generally support the caption approach favoured by Adjwilley. There are indeed conflicts in sources on this issue, so it makes sense to simply state that the single brown stone was used for much of the translation. I don't understand why this has to be a matter of dispute. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree. Lame.
There may well be 'conflicts in sources' but the overwhelming preponderance of the sources seem to suggest that Joseph Smith used his brown seer stone to translate the entire BOM. If not, how do you square Whitmer's statement that the Urim and Thummim were taken away by the angel after Smith lost the first 116 pages of manuscript? And Emma's, that states basically the same thing? Canstusdis (talk) 01:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm agreeing with Good Ol'factory in favoring the the simpler caption which accommodates more of the various accounts. In my estimation, I don't think there is a preponderance of sources suggesting only the brown seer stone after the 116 pages. Note that both the Remini (pg 61-62) and the Bushman (pg 70-72) references being cited both mention that JS did have the Nephite Interpreters returned to him after losing the 116 pages so these sources don't really support the brown seer stone only claim. A source that I found interesting that mentions and sums up a lot of the conflicting accounts and does some analysis of them is the recent essay "The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation" in the Interpreter (vol 5, pg 121-190). --FyzixFighter (talk) 02:25, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, since I don't have access to either of those books at the moment maybe you could at least post the quotes so we could discuss them? Thanks. Also, links to places that might help my understanding are welcome. Canstusdis (talk) 04:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry FyzixFighter, but the Interpreter article you suggested I read just confirmed what I've been saying all along. This from page 143:
In 1886, David Whitmer indicates that Joseph used his own seer stone to translate all of our current Book of Mormon text. In this interview, Whitmer states that the spectacles were never returned after the loss of the 116 pages and that a seer stone was presented to Joseph Smith for the purpose of continuing the translation.
By fervent prayer and by otherwise humbling himself, the prophet, however, again found favor, and was presented with a strange oval-shaped, chocolate-colored stone, about the size of an egg, only more flat, which, it was promised, should serve the same purpose as the missing urim and thummim (the latter was a pair of transparent stones set in a bow-shaped frame and very much resembled a pair of spectacles). With this stone all of the present Book of Mormon was translated.37
And This from page 146:
We have now established that there are multiple accounts from witnesses and Church sources confirming that Joseph switched from the spectacles or Nephite interpreters to a seer stone during the Book of Mormon translation process.
Page 168:
The image of Joseph translating using the stone and the hat does not match the picture that we typically have in our mind of Joseph looking at the plates through a pair of “spectacles,” while sitting behind a curtain. However, the use of the stone and the hat provides a distinct advantage in bolstering the claim that Joseph received the Book of Mormon text through revelation. The absence of a curtain during the latter part of the translation, during which the entire text of the Book of Mormon that we now have was produced, substantially weakens the critical argument that Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon by plagiarizing a number of other works. Instead of having Joseph obscured by a curtain or blanket, which could have hidden any number of reference materials, Joseph sat in the open, dictating the text of the Book of Mormon to Oliver while looking at the interpreter placed in his hat.
It appears Joseph Smith didn't use the U&T to interpret the BOM at all. Canstusdis (talk) 05:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
What official LDS website? If you are referring to Interpreter, it specifically states that the "Interpreter Foundation is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Bahooka (talk) 13:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Fixed. Please don't sidetrack this conversation. Thanks. Canstusdis (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Good grief, I was just trying to be helpful. This is the appropriate way to redact a comment. Simply blanking the portion where you were wrong like this confuses readers and makes Bahooka's comment look silly. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to edit the caption to reflect the the Interpreter article. Let me know what you think. Canstusdis (talk) 16:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Wait for this discussion to play out before changing things. So far no one has voiced support for your approach. Give users a chance to respond to what you have written. Good Ol’factory (talk) 17:02, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
@FyzixFighter, thanks for the article, that was an interesting read.
@Canstusdis, I have to wonder whether you actually read the Nicholson article or whether you just skimmed it looking for quotes that support your position. Assuming good faith means assuming that you are not deliberately misinterpreting or quoting out of context with an intent to deceive, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there. Nicholson makes no conclusion that the BoM was translated entirely using the brown stone, and is very careful about drawing conclusions at all. The first quote you give is Nicholson quoting a primary source illustrating that there are contradictory accounts. (It is not Nicholson's own conclusion, which is what matters here.) Your second quote from page 146 only says that multiple accounts say that he used the brown stone. Nicholson doesn't draw a conclusion here, nor does he say how much was done using the brown stone. The third quote doesn't support your position either, as Nicholson doesn't specify whether the interpreter is the stone or the U&T. (Elsewhere in the article he says the U&T was also placed in the hat.) If you (or anyone else) is interested in what Nicholson's position is, I suggest reading the bullet points (starting around page 185) which get to straight to the meat of the issue without the confusion of sorting through contradictory primary sources. There he attempts to reconcile the various accounts and tentatively gives a chronology. Specifically speaking of the period after the 116 pages were lost, he says that the U&T were returned, specifically refuting what you've been saying all along, and further saying "Joseph began translating using either the Nephite interpreters or his seer stone, either of which may have been placed in the hat. The witnesses would not necessarily have been able to determine which instrument he was using, although Martin Harris’s swapping of the stone to test Joseph indicates that the stone was used at some point."
Anyway, all that aside, you still haven't answered my original question, which I put in the section header: Why is this such a big deal? ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:41, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Removed photos

Latest comment: 11 years ago26 comments5 people in discussion

OK, I can understand removing the painting of Carthage Jail, since it's based on a description of events that may or may not have actually happened. I'll try to get a picture of the actual jail here when I have more time. (I'm sure there's one we could use at Carthage Jail. But I only have a few minutes.) However, I think the image of the golden plates is worth keeping in the article, because it's a representation of an artifact of such critical importance to Smith's life. Whether they were real or not is subject to debate, of course, so the caption to the plates could and probably should be reworded to reflect that. But you can't have an article about Joseph Smith without the Book of Mormon, and you can't talk about the Book of Mormon without the golden plates. It's a critical thing to illustrate how they looked / how Smith claimed they looked.

Thoughts? Trevdna (talk) 16:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

@Canstusdis:, You should probably have a look at WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO. You don't get to revert over and over again, demanding that others discuss your edits — the onus is on you to provide an adequate rationale on the talk page, especially when you are reverted by two different people. As for the images, I'm not sure what you mean when you say they're not "representative of actual events". As far as I can tell, the depiction of the golden plates isn't supposed to represent any events at all. It is, according to the caption, "An artistic representation of the Golden plates with the Urim and Thummim, based on descriptions by Smith and others". Is that a problem? As for the second painting, it actually is fairly representative of what happened: there's Smith dead/dying on the ground outside the jail surrounded by the armed mob with blackened faces. Sure, he's not actively falling from the window, but I've seen pictures with him in midair, and they're pretty corny. Granted, this picture is a bit corny as well with the sunbeam, but Fawn Brodie describes that in surprising detail on page 394, which should be enough to justify its inclusion here. (You'll note we don't discuss the sunbeam or the attempted decapitation in the article or the caption.) Sure, I'd rather have a better depiction in the article, but we're rather limited in that regard since we can only use public-domain or open-license images on Wikipedia. Do have a better alternative you'd like to suggest? ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Adjwilley. The image, as described, are accurate and should remain as it.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Trevdna as far as removing the painting of Carthage Jail. The text nor references describe what that painting is trying to represent (sunbeams from heaven?). As far as the Golden plates, this photo seem more appropriate:
 
And this painting more accurately represents Smith's transcription/translation methods:
 
Both these photos are in the public domain. Canstusdis (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Re: "this painting more accurately represents Smith's transcription/translation methods"...more accurately than what? As far as I know there isn't currently an image in the article representing his transcription/translation methods. Are you saying there should be one?
Re: golden plates, there are lots of images representing these, all with their pros and cons. I personally prefer the one in the article because it's a high quality professional-looking photograph of a well-made model, and it includes a replica of the wooden box that Smith said he kept the plates in. The other picture looks like somebody took a picture at a museum, and it's unclear when the model was made (if it's old enough to be in the public domain) or whether the original craftsman gave permission for their work to be published in this manner.
Here's a link to the Google Books version of Brodie, describing what's going on in the other painting, though I don't see it as being terribly important for this article, and I think it's best if we leave that part out entirely, as I'm sure you'll agree. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
So, does this mean you concede the other dispute? Please let me know so I can delete/replace that painting with something more appropriate. (example: File:Carthage_jail_front_entrance.jpg ) I'll discuss the second picture after we've resolved the first. Thanks. Canstusdis (talk) 19:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
It means I'd like an image that shows where Smith died (i.e. the outside of the jail with the well). This would do, but is arguably less-historically accurate than the first. This one is extremely low resolution, and it looks like he's doing a backflip. The one you linked to above shows the outside of the jail but not the window he fell from or where he died. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Let the record show that I'm bowing out of this conversation here. You two seem like you've got a better handle on how you'd like to see the article than I do at this point. Trevdna (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I hope you change your mind. I could use your help building consensus. Canstusdis (talk) 22:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
@Adjwilley:, in spite of it's low resolution the second one is the most historically accurate. Canstusdis (talk) 22:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
OK, I'm not particularly fond of it, but I've made the swap. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Now the problem I have with the second picture is the inclusion of the Urim and Thummim. It implies Smith used some sort of spectacles to read the plates, but we know by the article itself that this is historically inaccurate.
Reference number 188:
Remini (2002, p. 57) (noting that Emma Smith said that Smith started translating with the Urim and Thummim and then eventually used his dark seer stone exclusively); Bushman (2005, p. 66); Quinn (1998, pp. 169–70) (noting that, according to witnesses, Smith's early translation with the two-stone Urim and Thummim spectacles involved placing the spectacles in his hat, and that the spectacles were too large to actually wear).
And according to the text:
Later, however, he is said to have used a chocolate-colored stone he had found in 1822 that he had used previously for treasure hunting. Joseph Knight said that Smith saw the words of the translation while he gazed at the stone or stones in the bottom of his hat, excluding all light, a process similar to divining the location of treasure.
I don't have a problem with a photo showing what the plates supposedly looked like, and again as a compromise I'll offer the photo above, which I found here. Canstusdis (talk) 23:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, you seem to have missed the sentence in the text that says,
For at least some of the earliest dictation, Smith is said to have used the "Urim and Thummim", a pair of seer stones he said were buried with the plates.
So according to the article he is said to have used both the U&T and the brown stone. I suppose if we had a picture with the plates, the U&T, and the stone, that would be best. I have already given my reasons for wanting the dark picture: It's more professional, higher quality, shows the box, is in portrait orientation, and unlike the museum snapshot, it has an OTRS ticket from the craftsman who made them, meaning there are no copyright issues. Additionally, the U&T is partly in the shadow, and is not prominent in the picture. It's also a much more accurate depiction of the U&T than what we used to have in the article (a pair of glasses) and quite possibly the best one I've seen anywhere. Of course, one could argue that they never existed, and the same could be said of the plates, the angel, God, etc. but it's still helpful to have illustrations. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The picture is misleading and does not represent the facts. Adjwilley, please look again at what you quoted: ...a pair of seer stones he said were buried with the plates. I haven't seen anywhere a description of the U&T as a pair of glasses that J Smith put on his face. Here is what I have found:
In 1823, Smith said that an angel Moroni told him of the existence, with the plates, of "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like "two smooth three-cornered diamonds." Oliver Cowdery said the stones were "transparent". link
If you could find a reference where J Smith used the U&T as a pair of glasses in which he translated the plates (as suggested in the photo), and not as a pair of seer stones in the bottom of his hat (as it is descripted by all the witnesses), I'll withdraw my objection. Thanks. Canstusdis (talk) 01:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
You'll note that I never said they were glasses or that they were used that way. (The photo doesn't say anything about how translation was done either.) If you read the full quote from Lucy Mack, she says, two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, which were connected with each other in much the same way as old fashioned spectacles. In another source (Largey) "William Smith said the spectacles were attached to the breastplate by a rod which was fastened at the outer shoulder edge of the breastplate…this rod was just the right length so that when the Urim and Thummim was removed from before the eyes it would reach to a pocket on the left side of the breastplate where the instrument was kept when not in use." (He also said it was too large and Joseph could only see through one stone at a time.) The stones themselves have been described as clear and white. If you look closely at the picture we're talking about you'll see it takes the compromise route (the stones are opaque). Anyway, nobody is saying that they were glasses, but lots of people say that they looked kind of like glasses, which is probably why when you looked at the picture you thought glasses, even though the idea was not suggested by anyone here. ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Although I think the photo is misleading and not representative of the facts I'll withdraw my objection, however I'd like to add the painting above that, according to witnesses, actually represents the way the plates were transcribed/translated by J Smith. Canstusdis (talk) 15:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Meh, whatever. I personally don't understand why the method itself is such a big deal. I don't think the picture is that great, but it's been in and out of the article before (it was removed a couple weeks ago, I think because the section was too crowded) and I expect it will be in and out in the future as well as people try to emphasize the bits they want emphasized. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:51, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I think the method is quite important. It's discussed in the article itself. That's why I have such an objection to the 'artistic representation' photo that doesn't accurately represent the primary sourced factual events. I understand why you'd object to such a poor quality portrayal of the multi-witnessed events and I'd be willing to go with something of better quality as long as it wasn't as much of a distortion as your fanciful first photo is. This is a Wikipedia article after all. Canstusdis (talk) 23:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Adjwilley, how about a response to this one above? Canstusdis (talk) 01:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Notice that I'm still the last one to comment here. Not sure why Adjwilley hasn't replied. I suppose he'd like for me to build consensus by myself?Canstusdis (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

@Canstusdis - if you still have overall concerns about the picture being misleading, you might consider editing the caption in some way. I don't have anything particular in mind - it might end up being too awkward to try to include a disclaimer like that in a caption, but it's an idea.

Also, I'm going to try to find another suitable picture for Carthage Jail somewhere online (when I get the chance), because truthfully I can't stand the one we put up - it's low-res and black and white. Blech. As I understand it, for a new image to gain consensus, it must

  • Be historically accurate
  • Portray Smith leaping/falling from the window / after he's hit the ground.
  • Not look silly.
  • Be in the public domain/ other acceptable license for Wikipedia to use.

Am I leaving anything out? Trevdna (talk) 23:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Historically accurate: that's the number one most important criteria. beyond that it's up to editor consensus. Canstusdis (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Again, waiting for a response. Isn't that how we're supposed to build consensus? Canstusdis (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
What specifically did you want responded to? I would disagree that the number one most important criteria is historical accuracy. Sure it's important, but there's lots of historically accurate stuff that don't belong in this article. As for the image, I thought we had consensus to go with the low quality mid-air image until something better was found. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay on this - real life (and poor time management on my part) is keeping me from working on much of anything Wiki-related and may continue to do so for a while longer. Classes just started for me. Don't count on me too much for much of anything around here for a while. Trevdna (talk) 18:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

FAC post-mortem

Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The just-completed FAC seems to have brought up a lot of issues that I hadn't honestly considered. School really chose a bad time to pull me away from dedicating time to this article, because I feel that this article was really close, and for the most part, really only needed some fine tuning. (I'm actually a little frustrated, because I would have liked to dispute a few of the objections that were raised, that I felt weren't really warranted. But such is life.)

Having said that, I think it would be appropriate to put up a to-do list, based on the FAC:

  • It looks like there are still a few unresolved issues on the images; Nikkiamania asked for PD tags on a few more images. I have to admit my ignorance on this subject; what is a PD tag, and what would doing it entail?
  • Several reviewers, notably Squeamish Ossifrage, brought up blanket NPOV concerns. What would the best way to deal with this be?
  • Squeamish Ossifrage also talked about reference issues; I don't think anyone has tackled that one yet.
  • GregJackP mentioned including more details "in numerous instances", such as where Smith got the pistol he fired, what happened to those he shot, the connection between Ridgon's comments and the extermination order, and details about Smith's calls to take land from non-Mormon neighbors; I personally think that including those details (or numerous other ones like them that border on minutiae) would make the article cumbersome, hurt its summary style, and would be better treated in a subarticle. But I suppose that's open to debate, so should be talked about here. It might also tie into the NPOV concerns that were expressed; it seems like most of these details, included, would help to tip the article away from a pro-Mormon POV. So I guess I'm undecided.
  • Squamish Ossifrage talked about formatting and standardizing the references.
  • SO also talked about spot-checking the references, making sure that all the references claim what they said they do. As he admitted, it would be a Herculean task, but maybe we could spot check references on key citations for controversial claims, or something limited like that.
  • SO had a few sentences that weren't well-worded:
  • Wording on the Council of Fifty shadow world government
  • "To fully enter the Covenant..."

Also, reading through the article, I'm noticing the following:

  • We could still probably work on overcitation, especially in the early years section.

<delete>* "Soon after Smith and Rigdon arrived at Far West, hundreds of disaffected Latter Day Saints who had remained in Kirtland followed them to Missouri." is confusing; if they were disaffected, why did they come back? (The citation clears it up a bit, but the article is still confusing.)</delete>

  • I guess the image we have now of Joseph Smith falling out the window is... alright. I mean, I feel like there are bigger fish to fry, and if no one at the FAC objected to the picture, I guess I won't either.
  • SO mentioned using "Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith" by Oaks and Hill as a reference about the Nauvoo Expositor; it would be worth finding and using to cite other points regarding Smith's death that are now covered almost solely by Bushman - reducing a bit of Bushman overcite, so to speak.
  • It looks like someone put up a "citation needed" tag on "Emma never denied Smith's prophetic gift or repudiated her belief in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon" You leave one measly little sentence uncited...

Looking through the article on POV concerns:

  • "...leading Smith to believe he could not accomplish the translation in Palmyra." - the wording assumes that the translation was real. I'm not sure how to better word that, though.
  • Squeamish Ossifrage mentioned that we might include more detail on Nauvoo Expositor allegations against Smith.
  • Also, I'm thinking we might include some of the "lurid exposes on life in Nauvoo" that Bennett published?

Trevdna (talk) 21:53, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Just a comment about the pistol: he got it from a concerned friend who smuggled it into the jail. There aren't a lot of details on who he shot. I think there are primary accounts of one guy who got shot in the arm (presumably the guy who shot Hyrum?). Bushman says three of the shots misfired and three "found marks". Either way, the details are unclear and the sources don't dwell on them very much at all, and I don't think we need to either. That's just my opinion. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Poor quality anti material often alleges Smith killed two or three people with the pistol he fired; unfortunately, there is no evidence to support this claim other than...other anti material; hearsay creating more hearsay, etc. I suspect this may have been the motivation for the comment. It is difficult to prove a negative and I don't have a ready source off the top of my head that states that no one died from the shots fired by Smith. --StormRider 15:38, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Life in Missouri Section

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Well, I've done quite a bit of work on it, and it seems more clear. The only problem is, I've expanded it greatly, and now I feel like the section as a whole is given undue weight: even though it was a really controversial time of Smith's life, it was less than two years. So, if someone else has ideas on how to shorten it (without sacrificing clarity or NPOV), that would be great. I'd kind of prefer that anyone who takes it on, try to merge the removed material into the relevant subarticle(s), since I have worked hard on it. But if not, that's OK too, I suppose. I mean, my real goal right now is FA status for the main article, not so much with the subarticles. (Yet?)

And if no one works on it for a while, I might just jump back in myself at a later date. Trevdna (talk) 18:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Highly subjective phrase on the lede

Latest comment: 10 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

The lede says: "Smith is widely regarded as one of the most influential, charismatic, innovative, and controversial figures in American religious history"

That is not only very subjective, without implying any objective information, which is contrary to WP policies, but also it clearly consists of adjectives that classify as WP:PEA and also WP:LABEL. I had removed that phrase and was reverted by someone who said they are present on the section "impact" and are referenced. But my point is, even if they are referenced, I don't think it justifies them to be on the article, being highly subjective judgmental remarks without implying any objective information. I think it's at the very least, against the style of Wikipedia. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 16:56, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. An editor replaced this today but didn't bother to join this discussion, so I've removed it again. I don't see the section on impact justifying the sentence. Dougweller (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
(ec) This appears to be a summary of the referenced characterizations found in the article. If my recollection is correct, this sentence was in the article when it was determined to be a WP:GA and a WP:FA. It has also been discussed in the archives of the talk page. The main reason I reverted the removal was per WP:BRD: The removal was the "B", it was reverted, and now it is being discussed. I frankly do not have a problem keeping it or removing it as long as it is discussed. I will let others determine how appropriate it is to retain. Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, it was copied up from the body around the time of the FA review (either in preparation for it, or in response to some of the feedback). It had been in the Impact section for the GA review, where I still think it fits nicely, but this article has never been a featured article, as far as I know. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:48, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Bahooka. This is anexample of WP:Peacock wording, which says "Instead of making unprovable proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate that importance. I think this is similar to the example there "Bob Dylan is the defining figure of the 1960s counterculture and a brilliant songwriter." Instead the suggestion is to use something such as "Dylan was included in Time's 100: The Most Important People of the Century, where he was called "master poet, caustic social critic and intrepid, guiding spirit of the counterculture generation".[refs 1] By the mid-1970s, his songs had been covered by hundreds of other artists." Dougweller (talk) 10:09, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Early years section

Latest comment: 10 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

One of the paragraphs begins as follows: "The Smith family supplemented its meager farm income by treasure-digging." This is a puzzling statement on a few levels: 1) it states they had meager farm income, 2) this was supplemented by "treasure-digging". 3) there is no reference for this statement and needs to be, 4) They did nothing else, according to the statement for income except treasure digging. 5) How successful was this activity? 6) If their farm income was so meager and this was the only way they supplemented their farm income it must have been pretty successful; how much did they make off of this activity?

This does not read well nor is it factual. They supplemented their farm income by working as day laborers for other farmers among other things. The treasure digging allegation needs to be defined in terms of how much time was used for this activity, how successful they were, and what they found in their digging.

If they were not successful then why would people pay them to search for treasure? --StormRider 12:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

One can live on a meager income so there is no implication that the treasure hunting had to be successful. They would be looking for extra income.--Charles (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Maybe the words "attempted to" should be added: "The Smith family attempted to supplement its meager farm income by treasure-digging." That way there's no implication of success or of actual payment. (I don't know if they ever were actually paid an "advance fee" for undertaking a search.) And we need a citation, which shouldn't be terribly difficult; I've read such statements in a number of works. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:43, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
They were paid, both for their work as hired hands (harvesting, gardening, digging wells, working in a grist mill) and for the treasure digging (reportedly $14/month for Joseph, Jr). They also engaged in other small enterprises like a refreshment business (cakes, etc.) basket weaving, peddling, etc. This can all be sourced from Bushman pp. 31-33, and 46-48. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:02, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Adjwilley, that is more in line with historical reality. I have not read a historian who has ever quantified how much time was devoted to treasure digging or how much was made total. What I have always found surprising is that there is no historical evidence for Joseph Smith finding great treasures. If one is hungry how many times do they devote to an activity that does not put food on the table for himself and/or his family? Too often this topic is more an attempt to denigrate or taint rather than to inform. Historical fact is that Smith was a farmer/laborer first and foremost. That is how he earned his living. In this capacity he not only worked his family's farm, but worked for many other people as opportunities were available. As you have said there were several other activities that were done by him and his family. What he did not do and which was not a big focus of his life was looking for treasure. It is a matter of balance rather than fact. As of now, I don't think this part of the article is balanced. --StormRider 08:23, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
As you said, "I have not read a historian who has ever quantified how much time was devoted to treasure digging." I think it was a lot, that JS spent most of his time and energy doing it, and that he made at least a passable living—despite the fact he never found anything. He was selling hope and greed. And those things still go down well in the marketplace today.--John Foxe (talk) 15:12, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I think one of the obvious reasons the treasure hunting is emphasized is because it ties in with the discovery/revelation (however you want to classify it) of the buried golden plates, and some of the same treasure hunting "tools" he used were used in the translation of the plates. The treasure hunting is not necessarily emphasized because of the amount of time Smith spent on treasure hunting. It's because it has such a significant link to his later accounts of the Book of Mormon being produced. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Citations

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

It seems that a vast majority of the article is cited with Bushman or Quinn, while the official historical accounts from the journals of Joseph Smith himself and the History of the Church take a back seat and are only mentioned a few times. Bushman's one book is used as a source (around) 223 times out of the 298 citations. Are we just supposed to read Bushman's book and skip the article then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuntherSWiki (talk • contribs) 21:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:WPNOTRS, Wikipedia tries to predominately use reliable, secondary sources as citations rather than engaging in original research by focusing on primary sources. Journals of Joseph Smith and History of the Church would be more like primary sources than secondary ones. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:37, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Details of New York law

Latest comment: 10 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

I've noticed that there has been a recent push to include the statement that glass-looking was illegal in New York and specifically that it was illegal "because it was often practiced by swindlers". (See [6] [7] [8]) This bugs me for various reasons, a few of them being:

  • It's usually better to avoid longer quotes in encyclopedic writing. Specifically the bit about "swindlers" bugs me, that being a rather strong term. (I try to follow the guideline on this says, "Where a quotation presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided." Not that "swindlers" are particularly rhetorical, but it is a value-laden word, and should be used with caution.
  • It seems like too much information presented in the wrong place. It's like writing, "Beiber was arrested for reckless driving, which is illegal in Georgia 'because it often results in fatal accidents'." Sure, it's interesting and useful, but what does it have to do with Beiber?
  • It is an oversimplification. Glasslooking by itself was not illegal, and the specific charge was being a "disorderly person". Smith wasn't arrested because he was looking in a stone, but because his employer's nephew thought his uncle was being cheated.
  • These details aren't important or notable for the purpose of this article. The trial itself is notable, not because glasslooking or disorderliness were serious offenses (they weren't), but because it proves that Smith was using scrying techniques before he purportedly translated the plates. That is the reason that biographies mention the trial, and why this trial paragraph gets edited and debated so heavily here on Wikipedia. (I note that Bushman's roughly 600 page biography of Smith doesn't bother to mention why "pretending to have skill in discovering lost goods" was illegal.)

I'll hold off on reverting at the moment, but I invite further comment on this matter. Thanks, ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

It bugs me too, and strikes me as being in violation of WP:NPOV. I would have no problem with you reverting it, but I would also like to hear what other have to say about it. I applaud you for taking this to the talk page. Does anyone else have any other thoughts? If not, I'd say go ahead and revert. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
I object. Although I haven't been a major contributor to this article, I added the material in question in response to other editors' concerns that the article is POV and the trial and other aspects of Joseph Smith are being glossed over in a POV manner. As for the quote, first, it is properly sourced by a high quality source, including the publisher, the work, and the author who is himself a Mormon. Second, you cannot get around including this trial in the article. It is of interest to people. Another editor already mentioned that it was glossed over earlier in a charge of POV (see above). Included in the trial should be what he was charged for. And because very few people today will know what "glass-looking" is, they will want to know what it was and why it was illegal. That is encyclopedic. (Conversely, people today understand what "reckless driving" is and why it is against the law in various countries.) Next, although it may seem so to some, the statement does not draw any conclusions about Joseph Smith. It simply makes a statement about the law under which he was charged. Finally, this article has already received multiple charges of POV, and frankly, I tend to agree. It carefully avoids any possibility of Joseph Smith being anything other than a model citizen. He himself disagreed with this idea and warned others to not hold him up in that manner. I am a bit concerned that multiple editors here have tried to remove that (and an earlier passage about supernaturalism) under the pretext of it being a "quote" without an attempt at paraphrase. I added it as a quote precisely because a paraphrase will become controversial if using a similar term. To remove any added (and properly sourced) language that might possibly imply otherwise to some editors if they do not read it carefully may substantiate a charge of POV for the article overall.
However, if there is a recommendation at a paraphrase that is agreeable to all, I welcome suggestions. Airborne84 (talk) 05:56, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Airborne84: I think you may have misunderstood. Nobody is saying that the trial should be left out of the article or ignored. Quite the opposite, in fact. Nor is anybody saying the charge should be left out. It was actually I who added the "glasslooking" language three years ago when I was a new editor to the article, and it has been there pretty much ever since. Although, if you want to include the specific charge, that would be "disorderly person" not "glasslooking".

The random passersby complaining about POV above are doing so because the article doesn't say Smith was "convicted of fraud" (he wasn't as far as I can tell) and trust me, those people will never be satisfied no matter how much "negative POV" is added to the article (the same goes that the people who drop in to complain that the article doesn't call him a "prophet of God" will never be satisfied no matter how much "positive POV" is added).

In the past whenever people have come along insisting that extra but not-completely-related details be included in the article because they are interesting and "reliably sourced" we have usually ended up compromising by putting the details in a footnote like this. I feel that might be a good compromise here, as it will resolve your concern about the inquisitive people who want to know why pretending to find lost treasure was illegal. They can simply check the footnote. The same compromise resolves my concerns about the over-simplification by quoting the actual law, which would be unwieldy in the article text itself. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Because no one who's been around here for awhile will accuse me of being pro-Mormon, I'd like to second Adjwilley's suggestion.--John Foxe (talk) 18:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
(Laugh) You're absolutely right, John Foxe. No one can accuse you of being pro-Mormon. I also believe that Adjwilley has suggested a fair compromise, and I lend my voice to the consensus. --Jgstokes (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
That seems fair enough and a reasonable compromise to me. No issues, and thanks for the discussion! Airborne84 (talk) 19:52, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

No neutral point of view

Latest comment: 10 years ago19 comments12 people in discussion

I was simply blown away by this one-sided, pro-LDS article on Smith. Almost every paragraph is missing other side of the the story, contrary to WP:NPOV. Smith's early treasure-swindling has been glossed over, and the documented conviction for fraud in Chenango County is missing entirely. Polygamy got only a single superficial mention in the main section(!), and the description of Emma Smith's polygamy knowledge is wildly contradictory from section to section. The Egyptian papyrus fraud has been documented by every neutral expert in the field for 100 years, but that fact has been expurgated. Certainly LDS faithful can be forgiven for their prejudice, but any serious non-LDS biographer cites a long pattern of abuse and fraud. No reader of this article will know that. Tomking505 (talk) 01:19, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm no Smith apologist, but, with respect, your edits that were reverted appear to me to introduce more POV than they solve. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:56, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm with Good Olfactory. It seems that the edits you made were another attempt to introduce a POV into the article, not at attempt to create WP:NPOV.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 13:26, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree with what has been said. I would simply add that this article has been scrutinized and referenced both by people who accept Smith as a prophet and those who believe he was not one. Greatest care has been taken to ensure this article achieves WP:NPOV. The edits you input made it more POV, not less. Sorry. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:21, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I know that piling on isn't the intent here, but Tomking505 hasn't responded to the original comment, and we should try not to be too harsh on new users who attempt to edit in good faith. I'm not defending their edits, but those were reverted two days ago and there's been no attempt to put them back, and in my opinion, no reason to continue discussing them here. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
The fact that Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud (which is documented in the public record) using an alleged hustle that bears more than a passing resemblance to the method, by which, he divined, and translated, the golden plates for the book of Mormom is most definitely noteworthy and more than relevant to this article. There is no reason why the episode should not be included in this article. The fact that it is not included demonstrates, quite fully, the lack of NPOV in this article. Tony Reed (talk) 15:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with a fraud conviction...perhaps you are referring to the trial that took place in Chenango County? If so, that is included in the article (5th paragraph in the early years section). Also, paragraph 4 of the section on the Book of Mormon notes the similarity between the divination and translation processes, including the use of the same seer stone. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:39, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

You are not familiar with a Joseph Smith's fraud conviction? Have you actually looked using a search engine? Fletcherbrian (talk) 14:14, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I am not Adjwilley, but I will answer this question anyways by reiterating what he said: "perhaps you are referring to the trial that took place in Chenango County? If so, that is included in the article (5th paragraph in the early years section). Also, paragraph 4 of the section on the Book of Mormon notes the similarity between the divination and translation processes, including the use of the same seer stone." I find it somewhat ironic that this issue is being raised again after about three months of silence. --Jgstokes (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
As a side note, only partially related, this passage adjacent to that being discussed could use expansion: "The result of the proceeding remains unclear because primary sources differ." As an encyclopedia article, it would be worthwhile to list what the differing accounts of the trial were in primary sources. I also suspect that there are secondary source analyses about this trial in which an expert has examined the primary sources and might shed some light on them. These may well be of use for readers. Perhaps another editor has access to them, as I do not. Airborne84 (talk) 19:53, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
This being a top level article, I believe the idea was to summarize as much as possible and leave the more detailed explanation to the lower heirarchical articles, in this case Early life of Joseph Smith. In fact, most of what you're asking for can be found in the fourth paragraph of Early life of Joseph Smith#Treasure hunting. A very interesting and detailed secondary source with analysis of the trial and its primary sources is found in ref 24 of this page (Dan Vogel, "Rethinking the 1826 Judicial Decision", Mormon Scripture Studies). A good article, imo, should summarize the secondary sources, and point to those secondary sources for those wanting more details. Of course a lot of this discussion would be avoided if readers would follow the ref, click on the link, and read the Vogel's article, but I don't think that's asking too much, is it? --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
You have a fair point. Perhaps there is some middle ground where between a complete expansion and where it is now though. I'm not overly concerned about it, so will let other editors weigh in as desired. Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 07:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
There is a topic specific article for this type of material: Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system. I'd suggest that is the correct place for any expansion on this subject. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 16:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
There are a lot of valid criticism about the main article and at the very least should include some of the standard warnings that the article is biased and it requires work and it does not meet wikipedia standards. How can this be done? (I am new to wikipedia edits) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Selvimus (talk • contribs) 01:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
For starters, it would help a great deal if you spoke in specifics rather than generalities. Rather than merely saying, "There are a lot of valid criticism about the main article and at the very least should include some of the standard warnings that the article is biased and it requires work and it does not meet wikipedia standards," you should spell out for us exactly what you mean. What valid criticisms are you referring to? What standard warnings do you mean? In what way does this article fail to meet Wikipedia standards? You should know that editors on both sides of the fence (those who believe Smith to be a prophet and those who believe he was a charlatan) are taking greatest care to work together to make sure that a neutral point of view is achieved and preserved. So if you were to speak of the specific problems you observed with this article, perhaps we could address them one by one until you were satisfied this truly is an unbiased article. I would ask at the outset though, that the next time you post, you speak in specifics rather than generalities that say nothing about what concerns you have. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 02:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The fact that the article is biased and in fact it does not preserve a neutral point of view is pretty obvious from the comments already posted entitled "No neutral point of view". So what I meant is that, until people agree on these comment, this article obviously should have a tag and it does not. So, I am naturally wondering why it does not have such a tag. I am new at wikipedia edits so please do not bully.
More to the point is that controversial figures typically get a "Controversies" section on their wikipedia page. I think that such a section is needed here as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Selvimus (talk • contribs) 04:07, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
If you were to do your research, you would discover that a whole separate article discussing Smith-related controversies exists on Wikipedia, which is why they only warrant a passing reference here. I don't understand what you mean by "Please do not bully." Who said anyone was bullying you? Since when was asking for specific concerns bullying? I see nothing in my previous comment that could possibly be construed as bullying. If you felt you were being bullied, I apologize, but that may not have been my fault. As I stated in my previous comment, editors from a variety of backgrounds edit articles on Wikipedia. This article is edited by those who accept Smith as a prophet, those who consider him to be a charlatan, and people who are on the fence on the issue. Together, we work tirelessly to ensure that proper care is taken so that Wikipedia policy is followed and neutral point of view is preserved. This article is not the effort of just one editor. It is the effort of a community of editors, working together for years to produce the best, most accurate, most historical information about Smith possible. Again, you failed to present specific concerns. You spoke in generalities. So please try to be more specific next time. I also encourage you to remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes or using the signature icon at the top of the template. Otherwise your comments must be autosigned for you. Welcome to Wikipedia! --Jgstokes (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Joseph Smith was a scam artist and con man. Its so obvious today, that it is surprising no mention of it is made in the article. It should of been incredibly obvious in Smith's time as well. Certainly anyone with any common sense would of pegged him as a fraud, a snake oil salesman, and a con man from the very get go... and I'm sure, many did. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.226.11.248 (talk) 18:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Wow, no POV pushing here...  ;-) -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Early years: leadership of the Smith family

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

In the "Early years" section is a paragraph that begins by discussing the Smith family's financial hardship after the death of Alvin. Since mid April there has been a sequence of modifications to that sentence:

  • [9] by John Foxe ascribes the financial hardship partly to the drinking of Joseph Smith Sr. and adds that Alvin "had assumed leadership of the family".
  • [10] by me (Alanyst) removes the bit about JS Sr.'s drinking and adds that Alvin's leadership was "largely in place of his discouraged father" with a citation to Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling, p. 42.
  • [11] by John Foxe adds "who was sometimes 'out of the way through wine.'"
  • [12] by ARTEST4ECHO reverts the previous diff as "blatantly POV and unneeded."
  • [13] by John Foxe removes the "largely in place of his discouraged father" qualifying phrase.

Here are the relevant passages from RSR that serve as the supporting source for this part of the article:

Financial pressures increased in 1822 after [Joseph Jr.'s] elder brother, Alvin, began to build a frame house for the family. They managed this extravagant undertaking by making a fatal mistake.... [As] the time for making the next land payment approached, [...] the payment was apparently not applied to the mortgage.

Alvin [...] took responsibility for the "management and control" of construction....

Alvin may have taken the lead because his discouraged father could not. Alvin had cosigned the articles for the land purchase in 1821, suggesting he was serving as auxilary [sic] family head. Joseph Smith Sr., worn down by setbacks, may have partially abdicated family leadership. "I have not always set that example before my family that I ought," he confessed in 1834. Speaking of himself in the third person, he gratefully told Hyrum that "though he has been out of the way through wine, thou hast never forsaken him nor laughed him to scorn." Joseph Sr.'s drinking was not excessive for that time and place; only two of the hostile affidavits collected in 1833 mentioned it. [...] Joseph Sr. had lost his Vermont farm, and a few years later at the age of fifty-four would lose the land they were buying in Manchester. There would be no inheritances for his sons. By the standard measures of success in a rural society, he had failed. Even his dreamy yearning for religion had led to nothing; he felt that he had let his children down.

Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling, p. 42

My take on the above is the following:

  • The source does not support unequivocally stating that Alvin had assumed leadership of the family. "Suggesting [Alvin] was serving as auxiliary family head" and "[Joseph Sr.] may have partially abdicated family leadership" are more nuanced, and thus stating that Alvin's leadership was "largely in place" of Joseph Sr. is more faithful to the source.
  • The proximate factor Bushman cites for Joseph Sr.'s "partial abdication" was discouragement, in the context of which Bushman discusses Joseph Sr.'s drinking, his financial failures, and his unfulfilled religious yearnings. Particularly since Bushman disclaims that Joseph Sr.'s drinking was unremarkable for the milieu, and the quotes by Joseph Sr. are from many years later and refer to no definite time in his life, it seems a stretch to cite it as a definite factor in the family's difficulties immediately preceding Alvin's death. On that basis, I think it should remain omitted.

Thoughts? alanyst 20:51, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I think "assumed a leadership role in the family" is accurate; but if you'd like to cut the whole phrase, that's fine with me too.--John Foxe (talk) 22:04, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I like "assumed a leadership role in the family" too; the reader can go to the sources or in-depth article for details why. Good edit by Adjwilley there, and thank you John for the impetus leading to better (and smaller) wording. alanyst 22:20, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

1825-26 treasure hunting expeditions

Latest comment: 10 years ago13 comments4 people in discussion

Adjwilley says in his edit summary here that the treasure hunting expeditions referenced in that sentence, "to western New York and Pennsylvania in 1825–26," were all funded by Stowell. John Foxe says in his edit summary here that Stowell was not Smith's only employer. Are there sources to support the proposition that others besides Stowell employed Joseph Smith in at least one of the treasure hunting expeditions referenced in that sentence? alanyst 22:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this thread. I don't have the books in front of me at the moment, but I am fairly certain that Smith made multiple expeditions to the Western New York/Pennsylvania area, and that at the very least many of those were funded by Stowell. He may have made trips funded by someone else, but I don't know who that would have been, and I'm reasonably sure Bushman doesn't mention it. There also may have been other self-funded expeditions, but those would have likely taken place nearer the family farm, since the trip was over a hundred miles. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:15, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
"As Dan Vogel has noted: 'Although Smith's later accounts limited his treasure-seeking activities to his experience with Stowell in Pennsylvania, he continued similar ventures in Chenango and Broome counties until his arrest and court hearing in March 1826." Quinn, 55
"Harper's widow was one of the beneficiaries in this 1825 contract. Joseph Smith, Sr. and Jr., both signed this agreement, which resumed the young man's previous work for Oliver Harper." Quinn, 54-55.
"According to a January 1832 letter from five members of the judiciary and the postmaster at Canandaigua, New York, neighbors reported to them that a Mr. Fish gave financial support for Joseph Smith's treasure digging at Manchester." Quinn, 58.
"Jacob Chamberlain apparently financed Smith's treasure-quest in the area of Junius/Waterloo." Quinn, 59.--John Foxe (talk) 01:19, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks John. I'm persuaded that your wording is more accurate. alanyst 03:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I still take issue with the statement that only "one" of the expeditions from 1825-26 was funded by Stowell. Bushman says that Smith worked for Stowell between 1825 and 1826, and that "Joseph had continued working for Stowell after the abortive mining operation in November 1825, and during that time, besides working on the farm and going to School, Joseph may have helped look for lost mines again." (page 52) In the trial Smith said he had helped Stowell several times.
I did a little research myself and regarding the quotes above, and here's the chronology I came up with: in 1822, and possibly into 1824 he instructed a farmer named Oliver Harper (a partner of Stowell) on where to dig, though he "was not present" at the actual digging (Quinn 54). Quinn guesses that he might have boarded with Harper's wife in New York, not Pennsylvania where the digging took place, since the diggers were boarding with Isaac Hale, and Smith didn't meet the Hales until November 1825 (possibly the primary reason the trips and employment with Stowell is notable, the other reason being the trial). Harper died in 1824. In 1825 to 1826 Smith worked for Stowell, which is what we are referring to in the article when we say "...treasure hunting expeditions to western New York and Pennsylvania in 1825–26, funded by a wealthy farmer in Chenango County, New York". To say that "one" of the 1825-26 expeditions to New York/Pennsylvania like this is incorrect.
Briefly addressing your quotes, in order,
1. Vogel was referring to these repeat quests funded by Stowell. The "experience with Stowell in Pennsylvania" was the contract that began on 1 November 1825 and was aborted on 17 November 1825, but Smith continued "similar ventures [with Stowell] in Chenango and Broome counteries...until his arrest and court hearing in March 1826". Thus what Vogel is saying actually proves my point that there were repeat ventures, and Quinn makes it clear that they were funded by Stowell. (The brackets are mine)
2. No issues with that.
3. Manchester is basically where Smith lived, and these were not the trips to the Chennago County area that we are referring to in the sentence in question.
4. Waterloo is also close to where Smith lived (about 30 miles). We are talking about the significant 150 mile trips to Pennsylvania. All of them from 1835-36, as far as I can tell, were funded by Stowell.
I apologize for the TLDR. It really is a minor point, and I think very little of this is going to translate into improving the article, since we are talking about details that probably don't even meet the threshold of notability for sub-articles. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
It seems to me that the problem's eliminated if the dates and places are also eliminated. Where Smith did his treasure hunting is comparatively unimportant compared to the information that he was using a seer stone in (unsuccessful) attempts to find golden objects in the earth prior to his finding golden objects buried in the earth.--John Foxe (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Works for me, thanks for the bold edit. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks.--John Foxe (talk) 20:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
This discussion, while interesting, seems aimed not at specific article improvements but at evaluating the logic of certain views about Joseph Smith. It belongs at a different venue. alanyst 18:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

That is where the story fails logic. Smith lived in a small community; one one could provide a service to the community without everyone knowing the quality of the work provided. What you emphasize is that somehow Smith was unsuccessful with his seer stone in finding treasure BUT people continued to pay him for his labor. It just does not make sense. The citizenry was not wealthy and to continue year after year to pay for a service where nothing was returned makes little sense.
We do know that Smith came to a point where he was no interested in participating in these pursuits and yet some prevailed in convincing him to do it one more time. What would be helpful is to have some sense of time; how long did Smith provide this service? Was it limited to between 1821 to 1826? How often was he employed and paid for treasure hunting. I have read here that treasure hunting was his major employment; did I read that right or have I mixed it up? Why would anyone, specifically Stowell, continue to pay for ventures that had zero return on investment? Was it greed run amok or something else? --StormRider 07:45, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Anyone who's done serious mucking around in old records understands that logic often fails to explain why things happened when they happened. Worse, it's often difficult to explain why people believed what they believed when they believed it. It's easier if you're like me and believe that people are inherently evil; but you don't even have to go that far. Why did—and do—seemingly sensible people believe in Atlantis, Irish monks visiting ancient America, mystical notions about the pyramids, Phoenician mound builders in upstate New York, and lost civilizations in Antarctica? Because those ideas are "sticky": they're simple, unexpected, and make a good story. Plus—and this is a big plus these days—such notions can generate large amounts of cash when exploited in movies, TV programs, video games, and even occasionally books, such as The Da Vinci Code. The job of the historian is simply to present what the records say and let the logic fall where it may.--John Foxe (talk) 11:29, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
You mean Atlantis really doesn't exist?!? I don't think I agree with anything you have said, but it really does not address the issue. The benefit of the proverbial snake oil salesman and his cure-all was that he passed through, sold his brew, and then moved on. There would be problems if he stayed because the fraud would become evident.
Smith creates a different problem that I have yet to see a historian address or confirm. Did he make his living off of treasure hunting with his peep stone. If he did, then it appears he did it for several years. If he did it for several years in a specific location; if in fact, had people travel great distances to hire him for his perceived expertise; how on earth did they keep paying him IF he was unsuccessful.
Since we think that Smith actually did provide services as a treasure hunter with a peep stone and people continued to seek after him there are only a few conclusions to be made. One, he either was successful enough to keep them coming, or Two, he really did not focus on treasure hunting for his livelihood, but only did it occasionally for just a few people. Stowell is an interesting case because it wasn't the father who did hired Smith, but his son. Could be the son thought the old man was be abused by Smith, but did Smith attempt to dissuade Stowell from seeking after treasure?
I have no problem with historians and I realize that we just don't have complete records to know all things, but let a balanced summary of facts be the guide rather than cheery picking to achieve a conclusion such as Ms. Fawn was wont to do. --StormRider 05:18, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
My own opinion is that Smith made good money treasure seeking, never did any manual labor outside his family (I realize Bushman says he did), never found anything, and nevertheless had people pay for his services over quite a number of years. Why? Smith wasn't your average, run-of-the-mill snakeoil salesman; he was a man of exceptional charisma.
For years, I've tried to imagine the reaction I'd get if I told a woman half my age that if she wouldn't marry me, God would kill me. I don't think she'd report me to the police or even insult me. I think she'd edge as far away as possible, then yuck it up with all her friends about what a loonie I was. Joseph Smith successfully got away with such things for years operating within a very small circle.--John Foxe (talk) 14:30, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"critics view him as a false prophet or religious impostor"

Latest comment: 10 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

There are several problems with this line. First, it's not inclusive enough. It's also been argued that Smith was insane, a sociopath, self-deluded, or an agent of the devil. More importantly, the line is an unnecessary waste of space. We hold this truth to be self-evident that non-believers don't believe. Imagine writing "Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, while critics view him as a false prophet or religious impostor."--John Foxe (talk) 20:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree. This line doesn't seem to hold with WP:NPOV either. What should be done about this highly questionable and objectionable line? --Jgstokes (talk) 03:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
If there is concern that there is no source, I can add one or more. And I will look for wording that is more appropriate than the current wording to address John Foxe's comment.
For Jgstokes, I don't understand how removing the only non-positive words from the lede of an article contributes to NPOV. That clearly takes the article towards a specific POV.
In any case, I agree a source should be added. It will take me about a day to do that. Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 05:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
My sense is that the issue is not that it is a problem of sourcing. It is a problem of being inappropriately exclusive in the lead section of the article. The statement with a source of course would be appropriate later in the article, but there is the issue of how many competing claims should we place in the lead, as John Foxe has said, when there are so many of them. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:30, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Foxe in this instance. Never state the obvious; it is a sign of stupidity in writing style and logic. The Introduction should summarize the article only. --StormRider 09:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
No problem. I didn't realize until after the above discussion that the text was only added recently. My fault for not checking. And if the information is not in the article, then it should not be in the lede, I agree. I'll check later to see what is in the article since I'm sure it says somewhere what Smith's detractors state/claim. It's likely not necessary to add anything in that case. Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 16:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

A clearer statement about reason for the tarring and feathering of Smith

Latest comment: 10 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

I'd like to replace the current section which reads

Smith continued to live in Ohio, but visited Missouri again in early 1832 in order to prevent a rebellion of prominent church members, including Cowdery, who believed the church in Missouri was being neglected.<ref>{{Harvtxt|Brodie|1971|pp=119–22}}.</ref> Smith's trip was hastened by a mob of Ohio residents who were incensed over the United Order and Smith's political power; the mob beat Smith and Rigdon unconscious, [[tarring and feathering|tarred and feathered]] them, and left them for dead.<ref>{{Harvtxt|Remini|2002|pp=109–10}}; {{Harvtxt|Brodie|1971|pp=119–20}} (noting that Smith may have narrowly escaped being castrated); {{Harvtxt|Bushman|2005|pp=178–80}}.

with the following:

Smith continued to live in Ohio, but he visited Missouri in early 1832 to prevent a rebellion of prominent church members jealous of Rigdon's influence and annoyed at a revelation from Smith that the Missouri settlement should pay Kirkland's debts.<ref>{{Harvtxt|Brodie|1971|pp=119–22}}.</ref> Smith's trip west was also hastened by a mob of Ohioans who thought Smith was trying to deceive the credulous into joining a tyrannical political and economic system. The mob [[tarring and feathering|tarred and feathered]] Smith and Rigdon and beat them senseless. <ref>{{Harvtxt|Remini|2002|pp=109–10}};{{Harvtxt|Brodie|1971|pp=119–20}} (noting that Smith may have narrowly escaped being castrated); {{Harvtxt|Bushman|2005|pp=178–80}}.

The latter is absolutely faithful to the sources and yet provides both a clearer explanation about why the Ohioans mobbed Smith and places more emphasis on disharmony in the early Church.--John Foxe (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment. I would have no problem with the change. (Not that this has been proposed—but I think we should avoid the claim that the tarring and feathering and near castration was directly prompted by Smith's relationship (possible plural marriage) with Nancy Marinda Johnson. Krakauer stated in his book that it was, but that claim has been hotly disputed and there is mixed evidence on it with much stronger evidence pointing to the issues set out above.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)Thanks for starting the thread here. In my edit summary I was asking for a good reason for why the changes should be made, and I don't really see one here. A good reason would be something along the lines of "making it closer to what the sources say" (which as far as I can tell the proposed change does not). I don't think placing "more emphasis on disharmony in the early Church" is a good rational for making changes unless you are saying that the sources place more emphasis on this. As for the motivation, Brodie says the motivation was to "hasten his departure". Remini says, "The increased number of revelations to Joseph about the activities and conduct of his congregation, giving him even greater authority over them, and the many Mormons pouring into the town had so alarmed the Kirtland community that they generated renewed agitation against the Prophet and his followers. The poverty of some of the arriving Mormons brought fears and complaints that they would become "an insupportable weight of pauperism." Morover, because the Mormons tended to vote as a bloc...their growing numbers constituted a threat to the existing economic and political power structure of the town." If I had to choose between the two suggested wordings above, I'd say that the first (that Ohio residents were angry with the United Order and Smith's political power) is closer to the sources than the second (that Ohioans thought Smith was trying to dupe people into joining a "tyrannical" political and economic system). Bushman is less concise, and does contain words like "despotic" and "allure the credulous" but those words are from direct quotations of letters by Ezra Booth to the Ohio Star and reproducing them here in Wikipedia's voice probably isn't our best option. I would, however, favor replacing the reference to the "United Order" with a something more accessible to readers, like "communalism". Perhaps we can come up with a new wording for these two sentences that work even better than the two suggestions above, neither of which I like very much. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:34, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

    @Good Ol'factory, agreed on the castration thing. Brodie also hinted at that, while Bushman cited her, saying that her evidence was weak. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

My version makes it clear that if was the Ohioans who "thought Smith was trying to deceive the credulous," so there's no problem with including that information. I also don't know why there shouldn't be more emphasis on the disharmony in the church. It's clear from the sources and missing from the article. The Brodie page cited (120) says, "They had not questioned the revelations, however, until they received the one commanding Zion to pay Kirtland's debts."--John Foxe (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
"A rebellion of prominent church members" certainly indicates disharmony in the church, so it's not missing from the original wording. alanyst 14:23, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it's important to point up the fact that the disharmony was about money rather than a theological disagreement. As for the "left them for dead," Bushman says "Joseph saw Sidney Rigdon lying on the ground apparently dead." (178)--John Foxe (talk) 14:38, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Are you saying that Bushman doesn't support the statement that the attackers "left them for dead"? See the previous paragraph on the same page (178), which says, "His attackers strangled him until he blacked out, tore off his shirt and drawers, beat and scratched him, and jammed a vial of poison against his teeth until it broke. After tarring and feathering his body, they left him for dead." ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
You're right. I missed that. I disagree—if the mob wanted them dead, they would have killed them—but Bushman rules.--John Foxe (talk) 21:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Holy POV, Smitty

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I understand the subtle Smith 'claimed' portions are to make it a little more encyclopedic but to me it's like putting "George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, and threw a silver dollar across the Potomac" against his verifiable accomplishments without distinguishing the two. I propose renaming this page to "Mormon beliefs on Joseph Smith" or "Joseph Smith (Character of Mormon Mythology) so as to remove issues with the glaring Mormon POV. 138.210.3.84 (talk) 22:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

As I have stated to other editors who have expressed such concerns in the past, you should know that a variety of editors from a variety of backgrounds who embrace a variety of viewpoints regarding Smith are working together to ensure that this article achieves a neutral point of view. There are some, like me, who are LDS. There are some, like John Foxe, who do not necessarily believe Smith to be a prophet but at the same time do not see a need to include every negative thing that was written about Smith. And there are plenty who are on the fence on the issue. The long and the short of this result is that we work together to resolve article issues. It does little good for an annonymous editor (editing Wikipedia with just an IP address) to make a sweeping statement like "this article has glaring Mormon POV issues." unless s/he is willing to go into specifics. So cut the generalizations, please, and let's discuss what specific objections you have to the article as it now stands. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:18, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Smith "published" the Book of Mormon?

Latest comment: 10 years ago5 comments5 people in discussion

I am posting this topic in order to resolve an issue and potentially prevent an edit war. This article claims that Smith published the Book of Mormon. That is categorically false. He directed the publishing of the Book of Mormon. The actual publishing was done by E. B. Grandin. I believe we do the article a great disservice by introducing wording that is blatantly false. But any attempt on my part to introduce more NPOV wording in this regard has resulted in a revert by Good Olfactory. So I thought that rather than engage in an edit war, I would post here in an effort to get some kind of consensus on wording that would be more neutral and accurate and would be satisfactory to both of us. Let me review what has been done so far so that it is not necessary for interested editors to go back in the history.

On August 6 at 03:52 wikitime, I changed the sentence to read, "When he was twenty-four, Smith claimed he translated the Book of Mormon." with the following explanation: "It is incorrect to say that Smith 'published' the Book of Mormon; that was done by E. B. Grandin. Much more accurate and NPOV to say he claimed to translate the Book of Mormon."
Good Olfactory reverted this at 05:30 wikitime with the following explanation: "It was published under Smith's direction, which is enough; I think it's better to avoid the 'claimed' language here when an alternative is available."
At 07:48 wikitime, I changed the sentence to read: "When he was twenty-four, the Book of Mormon was published under his direction." with the following explanation: "How's this for a compromise in wording? This way we're not saying Smith published The Book of Mormon, which is incorrect, but we are indicating the role he had in doing so in a NPOV way."
This was again reverted by Good Olfactory at 10:05 with the following explanation: "seems way too wordy; when someone has a book published under their name, it's common to just say that they published it, regardless of who did the actual 'printing.'"

I really think we need a compromise here. I feel unsettled about claiming that Smith published the Book of Mormon when he actually supervised the publishing of the Book of Mormon. But no matter what wording I use, it gets reverted. I want to avoid an edit war, and I have the greatest respect for Good Olfactory. I believe a compromise can and should be found, so I wanted to post here and see what the consensus says. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 20:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Smith paid Grandin to print the Book of Mormon (both with an advance and later in a final settlement, which is how Harris's farm was lost), and Smith was responsible for it's content, it's editing, and the books produced belonged to Smith. Although Grandin was responsible for printing & binding, and functioned as a bookseller from his shop, Smith was without question the publisher: ownership of printed works that are produced, until they are sold to the end consumers, is what publishing is all about. Also the term "proprietor" used on the first edition of the BoM is an archaic alternate term for publisher. —Asterisk*Splat→ 20:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The Gold Plates section of lds.org states that "Joseph Smith translated and published a portion of these plates". Bahooka (talk) 20:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with AsteriskStarSplat: publishing is distinct from printing and selling; one can publish a book (disseminate it to the public) without doing the printing work oneself. (One can also produce a book but not publish it, if one never releases it to the public.) Saying that Smith published the Book of Mormon is accurate under reasonable and common interpretations of the verb "publish". alanyst 20:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with those who have said that it's fair to call Smith the publisher. If I write and article and it gets printed in an academic journal, the common way to refer to what I did is that I "published my article". Another entity does the printing for my publication. One of the OED definitions of publish is "Of an author: to cause to have a book, paper, etc., published; to appear in print." Smith was identified as the "author and proprietor" of the work, which in my understanding basically means he was responsible for the contents and he was the one who was publishing it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Careful language

Latest comment: 10 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

John Foxe made a good faith edit to use careful language regarding Smith's additional wives. I changed this to reflect that sources say he had more than 30 wives in the years after 1841. For example, John Bushman adds no caveats when he writes in Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction, "In 1841, he began to marry additional women until the number grew to more than thirty. (Incomplete records make it impossible to determine an exact number.)" We should be careful about settling on a number beyond 30 in this article, but the sources listed and Bushman seem to be in agreement that he had more than 30 wives in the following years and the text should reflect that. Airborne84 (talk) 05:34, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

And where do you propose to end the list of Smith's alleged "wives"? When there are 100? 200? I'm with John Foxe fully on this one. He's not known to be a Smith apologist by anyone's stretch of the imagination, so if he says caution is necessary, then it is necessary. The sources we have that provide an exact number set it at the number we currently have, while you have merely produced one source that claims a greater number. My recommendation would be to leave it as it is, unless and until you are able/willing to get a more specific, well sourced number from well-reputed sources. I don't mean to impugn Bushman. I respect him as a Smith scholar. But how much more is "more"? We must be cautious indeed. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:16, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
We are talking about two different things. I'm not interested in changing the number "30" in the text. I'm interested specifically in the caveat "may". I.e., the sources state that he was sealed or married to 30 women. (Or more.) They do not say that he "may have been" sealed to 30 women. "May have been" means the number could have been zero more. Or one. Or two. The sources appear to state 30+. They do not provide the caveat "may" from what I can see.
However, I do not have all the sources at hand. I only have Bushman's which does not use the caveat "may have been". If the other sources do not provide caveats, then we are misrepresenting the sources by using "may have been" instead of "was".
I propose to change the wording from "In April 1841, Smith wed Louisa Beaman, and during the next two-and-a-half years he may have married or been sealed to 30 additional women," to "In April 1841, Smith wed Louisa Beaman, and during the next two-and-a-half years he married or was sealed to 30 additional women" The discussion about how many more can remain in the note section.
Thanks for your time. Airborne84 (talk) 14:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
And as a side note, when I re-read my original post above, I was not very clear specifically what issue I was talking about. My apologies. Airborne84 (talk) 14:07, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I've quoted Bushman. Perhaps that's all that's necessary for a compromise here.--John Foxe (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Seems fine to me. Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 20:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I changed the wording back to something similar to what Airborne84 wrote. The changes had resulted in a sentence reading "...during the next two-and-a-half years he 'married about 30 additional women, ten of them already married to other men.' ten of them already married to other men...". I think it's fine to just say "about 30" and we don't need to attribute, since 30 is one of the more conservative estimates. (See the footnote for a survey of the various secondary sources.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:32, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

No issue with that either. It reflects the sources but leaves discussion about a number above 30 in the notes. Airborne84 (talk) 13:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for not reading the whole paragraph before I added the quotation.--John Foxe (talk) 14:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparent contradiction in article regarding Emma Smith and knowledge of polygamy

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I don't have sufficient knowledge to make a correction, but the article (to a lay-person) is confusing in regard to this (reading the article, it gave me a "Huh? Didn't it say something different earlier?" moment when I hit the second quoted text below. I'm wondering if someone should add a clarifying point, maybe to the first section?

Under "Family and Descendants", the article states:

Throughout her life, Emma Smith frequently denied that her husband had ever taken additional wives. Emma said that the very first time she ever became aware of a polygamy revelation being attributed to Smith by Mormons was when she read about it in Orson Pratt's periodical The Seer in 1853. Emma campaigned publicly against polygamy, and was the main signatory of a petition in 1842, with a thousand female signatures, denying that Smith was connected with polygamy. As president of the Ladies' Relief Society, Emma authorized publishing a certificate in the same year denouncing polygamy, and denying her husband as its creator or participant. Even on her deathbed, Emma denied Joseph's involvement with polygamy, stating, "No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of ... He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have"

Later, under "Views and Teachings" / "Polygamy", it's stated that:

Polygamy (or plural marriage) caused a breach between Smith and his first wife, Emma. Although Emma knew of some of her husband's marriages, she almost certainly did not know the extent of his polygamous activities. In 1843, Emma temporarily accepted Smith's marriage to four women boarded in the Smith household, but she soon regretted her decision and demanded that the other wives leave. In July, Smith dictated a revelation pressuring Emma to accept plural marriage, but the two were not reconciled until September, after Emma began participating in temple ordinances and received an endowment.

98.203.213.148 (talk) 16:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

It can be confusing. You get a different story depending on which perspective you are looking at. Some claim that Emma Smith denied her husband ever taught or practiced polygamy. Others claim that she was fully aware of his activities and did not approve. How do we reconcile these seemingly irreconcilable differences? I'm not sure we can. The only way around this is to present both POVs as fact and let the reader work out the truth for himself/herself. As for me, as an LDS member who traces his church's origins back to Joseph Smith and beyond, I accept the fact that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith and that Emma was not fully in support of it, even though she may have claimed no knowledge of it. At least, that's the way I have come to see it. --Jgstokes (talk) 16:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

First sentence

Latest comment: 10 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

There has been some editing and reverting centered around the first sentence that has made me wonder whether an alternate wording might be appropriate. The first sentence currently reads:

Joseph Smith, Jr. (December 23, 1805 – June 27, 1844) was an American religious leader who founded the Latter Day Saint movement, of which the predominant branch is Mormonism.

As I noted in my edit summary here we have this wording (as opposed to just saying that he founded the LDS Church) because there are multiple churches and claims of succession. (See List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement) However, the current wording bugs me as well, mostly because it's wordy and awkward. I also don't think that Latter Day Saint movement should be the first link in the article, since it's kind of an academic term that's usually not mentioned in the sources (they usually just mention Mormonism or the LDS Church, sometimes in combination with the Community of Christ). Anyway, I think a good replacement wording would be

Joseph Smith, Jr. (December 23, 1805 – June 27, 1844) was an American religious leader and founder of Mormonism.

I like that because it's simple, direct, and still accurate. During his life he was just the founder of Mormonism, and that is what he is most known for; yet the wording doesn't imply that he is not also considered the founder of non-Mormon denominations formed after his death (specifically the CoC). Specific denominations (LDS & CoC) are still mentioned prominently in the last paragraph of the Lead. Thoughts? ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you.--John Foxe (talk) 18:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I also agree. The current wording, IMO, is a magnet for editing disputes because the term "Latter Day Saint movement" is not widely accepted. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 18:55, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I add my voice to the consensus. Good compromise. I do think, however, that we need to discuss how to appropriately handle editors who repeatedly revert this article to claim Smith as only the founder of the LDS Church. I have tried explaining this on the talk page. I have gone to individual user's talk pages. And still the trend continues. So what can/should be done about that? --Jgstokes (talk) 20:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Smith as "founder" of the Church

Latest comment: 10 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

I posted this topic before, but it has since moved to the archives. I repost it now because it still appears to be an issue. We have several editors with only IP addresses who are overzealous Church members with no regard for Wikipedia policy that are insistent that we stick to what all LDS members accept as truth, that Smith restored the Church that Christ originally established upon this earth. It is to those IP editors I address this comment. Because of Wikipedia rules and regulations about maintaining a neutral point of view, we cannot say that Smith "restored" the Church that Christ originally established, however much we believe or know it to be true. Before you jump all over me, I am LDS as well, and I too believe that Joseph restored Christ's original Church. But as a Wikipedia editor, I have to accept Wikipedia's views about neutrality, and so we can only say that our church "believes itself to be" a restoration of Christ's Church, and we must thus list Smith as the founder of it. In reality, however it came about, whether you believe it was through angelic direction, divine intervention, or a whim of his own, it took someone accepted by the general public as mortal to establish a Church, and that is what Smith did. So, I would say to you anonymous IP address editors who keep insisting that we list Smith as the "restorer" of the Church, please be sure that you are following Wikipedia policy when you make such edits, and please give it some thought before making edits such as these. You can save yourself and others a lot of stress and trouble if you do so. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 08:24, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Sadly, the people who most need to see the above comment are also the least likely to even be aware that article talk pages exist. It might be better to consider either semi-protection or pending changes protection for this article. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:02, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how to make a pending changes protection request. I have made a semi protection request in the past and it has been granted, but I really don't understand the formatting involved and would feel much more comfortable if someone with more Wikipedia experience than me were to take care of it, if we really think it is necessary to go to that length. I'm not convinced that's the way to go. If anonymous IPs are unaware of the talk pages, we need to make them aware of them. I think doing so would be the fair thing to do before requesting page protection. On the other hand, this has been happening a lot more lately, so maybe it's time to act first and consider coddling the IPs later. So, if someone with experience could make the page protection request for us, that would be fantastic! --Jgstokes (talk) 05:59, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I tend to think this action is a bit like using a shotgun rather than a flyswatter to kill the annoying, buzzing fly. It reminds me of the temple garment page that used to be constantly reverted by well-meaning Anons, but just found the pictures offensive. Instead of preventing all Anons from editing it may just be easier to overlook how annoying the consistent edit is and revert it anyway. Some can be persistent, but I think those are the ones where the discussion on this page is helpful. Most will never return and carry on their way. They are not committed to the article, just checking things out. Just a few thoughts, but given that I seldom participate on Wikipedia any more my counsel comes cheaply and I freely admit that I may not be here to revert these types of changes much. --StormRider 08:30, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Indeed - shotgun approach inappropriate here. The "rate" of ip pov editing is far to low for semi protecting or pending changes. If the rate should increase to several per day or even per week, then such protection might be acceptable. Meantime - monitor your watchlist. Vsmith (talk) 13:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Since these changes being made would not constitute "vandalism"—that is, deliberate attempts to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia—I agree that we should not protect the page because of this issue. As far as I can tell, they are all more or less good-faith edits. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Addition of Harris note

Latest comment: 10 years ago20 comments5 people in discussion

Since it will no doubt be unwelcome and contentious for some, I'll ask for comments here first. Sam Harris wrote, in his recently published book, Waking Up, that Smith was a "libidinous con man and crackpot". Certainly the sentiment is notable, as other commentators, such as Christopher Hitchens, have expressed the same. However, this idea is not clearly expressed in this article (which may be, at least in part, the source of the repeated assertions of POV for this article). Within Wikipedia's policies, is there any objection to adding this, perhaps in the "legacy" section? Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 09:03, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What is of more value; calling someone a ""libidinous con man and crackpot" or actually providing the historical facts of an individual's life? What part of Smith's life is missing from this article? --StormRider 09:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Harris and Hitchens are no doubt notable individuals, but I'm not persuaded that their opinions about Smith are notable in the context of a biography of Smith, any more than the opinions of similarly well-known individuals such as Mitt Romney, Trey Parker, or Rick Warren might be. What elevates the "con man and crackpot" view above any other arbitrary popular person's view of Smith? The views of the major branches of Mormonism are self-evidently notable because of Smith's central role in their theology; also clearly notable are the opinions of academically respected biographers of Smith. Beyond these, on what basis might we determine that opinion A should be addressed but B should be omitted? alanyst 16:03, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
For Rider, I can't answer your first question. That should be left up to the reader. We simply provide the material that reliable sources report. But if both ideas are not presented (assuming they are both notable), the reader may not know there are conflicting ideas. This is how we encounter POV on Wikipedia. I'm not clear how the second question relates to my query, so I'll leave it at that.
For Alanyst, I offer that WP:RS states that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered" (emphasis in original). The fact that Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, and other commentators have viewed Smith as a con man and other labels (putting aside truth values for those assertions which we cannot adjudicate) means that this can be seen as a significant minority view at the minimum. Yet, it is not included in the article. I am offering one of the sources to include the idea.
I don't think the idea needs to be belabored or expanded or take up a whole section. It can simply be part of the opinions of Smith's legacy. In my opinion, this may help alleviate further POV claims. Thanks for your comments. Airborne84 (talk) 16:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)\
If I might make a more concrete suggestion, the passage could be directly attributed with context provided. For example, "Modern atheist commentators such as Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris have painted a darker picture of Smith, labeling him a "con man" and even a "crackpot." By identifying that the sources are atheist commentators, the reader will understand the context behind the words, rather than think it is everyone who thinks that. Airborne84 (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I think the wording you propose is well crafted; but I'm still not sure you've demonstrated that it crosses the "significant minority view" threshold expressed by WP:RS. The question hinges on what we deem "significant", I suppose. Atheism is a significant philosophy, and Harris and Hitchens are significant in that domain; but the significance of these atheists' views of Smith is not, to me, evidently more noteworthy than any views on Smith that have been expressed by other significant people in other significant domains such as politics, entertainment, literature, other belief systems, etc. Can you explain how this particular view is distinctly more significant than those you would consider insignificant minority views? alanyst 17:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I haven't tried to interpret the word "significant" in WP:RS before. If it is to mean significant in number, it would be rather tedious for me to list dozens of websites and published sources here. It could easily be done. But if this is a concern, perhaps I could suggest a few quick web searches using the terms "atheism", "con man", and "fraud" combined with "Joseph Smith"? Again, please don't interpret that I'm suggesting these connections are true. But a quick search will reveal that there are plenty of atheists as well as other religious people who hold this view. (As an aside, Christopher Hitchens wrote, "To a mainstream Christian, Jew, or Muslim, nothing is more obvious than that founders and prophets of other religions, such as Joseph Smith, the Rev. Moon, Mary Baker Eddy, and L. Ron Hubbard, are either frauds or delusional." And you can also easily find websites by religious people in opposition to Mormonism and Smith.) However, here we are talking about atheists' views.
It seems that on Wikipedia that a significant minority view is represented if a reliable source states it. In this case, we have at least three prominent and widely published atheists stating a sentiment in unison. In the policy WP:RS, under "some types of sources", "Biased and opinionated sources" are listed. These three authors fit that bill. They do not appear to fall into the categories listed under questionable and self-published sources. So they should be able to stand on their merits as sources.
This would be a different matter if there were three prominent sources under a certain discipline or area stating a sentiment which could not be clearly backed up with a web search. That's not the case here. It is easily shown with a web search that these three sources reflect a sentiment about Joseph Smith held—rightly or wrongly—by quite a few religious and nonreligious people. And that appears to qualify for a significant minority view—at a minimum. To ignore this is to continue to invite POV assertions.
To address your other comment, I don't see why views on Joseph Smith from other areas (politics, other belief systems, etc.) should not also be included. The article on Jesus includes views about him in other religions and belief systems for example, and that is a Featured Article. It appears that some editors have ideas that only "historical facts" (the subject of some debate in and outside Wikipedia) should be included here. It is not clear to me why that is, given the name of the article is "Joseph Smith" and not something much narrower. Thanks for your time. Airborne84 (talk) 19:36, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • This kind of thing has been discussed a few times in the recent past... See [14], [15], [16] for recent discussions. Just for fun I made some "test edits" for ways the wording could potentially be implemented in the article. Edit 1 uses roughly the wording proposed by Airborne84, while Edit 2 is shorter and puts it in a different paragraph. Perhaps the second one is short enough that people would accept it as a compromise with WP:DUE weight? (I kind of like it if only for the irony of having atheists and evangelicals in the same boat.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there a religious or ideological group of non-Mormons who accept Joseph Smith's witness as true? Why pick on evangelical Christians when the same could be said of everyone from mainline denominations to Muslims?--John Foxe (talk) 21:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I certainly don't want to pick on anybody, and my parenthetical above was mostly humor. The evangelical Christians, I believe, are mentioned because they are the ones actively publishing literature against Mormonism. That's different than the sentiment of the other groups you mention, which I think is probably closer to apathy. ~Adjwilley (talk) 06:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I made the addition to the text according to the first edit example that Adjwilley provided, as the second seemed to be less agreeable here. If I've moved too fast in inserting the text, please feel free to undo for further discussion.
I didn't include Hitchens since in his commentary on Smith in God is Not Great he doesn't call Smith a fraud directly. He just relates a story in which Smith was convicted for fraud. I used a YouTube video for Dawkins, but there are print/web sources available at the "Christian Post" and others which could also be used if that is preferable. And thanks for the time and discussion. Airborne84 (talk) 09:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted, since I was hoping to see a little more of a discussion followed by consensus before adding anything permanently. I'm still not convinced myself that something needs to be added. I think something that would convince me would be to have some of the biographies on Smith mentioning the atheists calling him a con-man and crack-pot. I seem to remember Bushman talking about earlier historians hypothesizing that Smith had been delusional, but that that theory had mostly fallen out of favor with modern historians. I'll flip through my books and see if I can find something...Remini or Vogel might have something to say about it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
If you'd like. I'm not sure why we need a secondary source to tell us that prominent atheists call Smith these terms. We have the sources telling us that themselves, which is backed up by web searches. Indeed, the idea may actually be more than a significant minority belief in just the atheist community. It may actually be a majority belief between them and other religious folks that is not reflected in the article. I don't know that to be the case, but we do have people making assertions of POV here quite a bit, which should tell us something.
In any case, there's no rush. I welcome comments from other editors. Airborne84 (talk) 19:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

And if you're simply looking for secondary sources to note that these atheists use these terms, there is no shortage of that online. These comments are noted in a number of news sites online. For example, the "Christian Post" noted Dawkins's use of these terms during Mitt Romney's run for the US presidency. They don't have to be scholarly secondary sources; Wikipedia does not require that to merit inclusion in an article. Perhaps if you could clarify what you are looking for, I can help. Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd much prefer a printed, peer-reviewed biographical source over a politically charged news article about Dawkin's Twitter posts on Romney. In my perusing I came across a quote by Robert Remini in the preface to his biography on Smith. He says,

I should make it clear at the outset that I am not a Mormon. As such I faced several problems in writing this book, one of which involved Joseph's visions and revelations, which are crucial to an understanding of him, his church, and the times in which he lived. After considerable thought I decided to present his religious experiences just as he described them in his writings and let readers decide for themselves to what extent they would give credence to them. I am not out to prove or disprove any of his claims. As a historian I have tried to be as objective as possible in narrating his life and work. Mormons will have no problem in believing everything Joseph related about his encounters with the divine. Others may be skeptical, but I hope they will, like me, find his life and legacy of particular importance in better appreciating how this nation developed during the early nineteenth century and how religion played such a commanding role in that process.

I'm not saying here that we need to take the same approach as Remini, but I do think that it is a good one. When we have a subject area like this (religion) where everybody believes everybody else is wrong, I'm not sure about the merits of repeating the name calling in what is supposed to be a professional encyclopedia. I will however look over the section again and see if I can partially resolve your concerns using the secondary sources that I have at my disposal. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
What are your thoughts on my latest edit? It puts it more in terms of what scholars have said, and I think the language is better and more academic ("fraud" and "psychological disorder" instead of "con-man" and "crack-pot"). ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
In principle, I don't agree with the sentiment about "name calling". In practice, I like very much what you edited and it is an excellent addition to the article. If I may say so, it definitely moved the article toward another Featured Article nomination.
But it is not there yet. My concern lies in the idea that we should avoid including a position, labeling it name-calling. What this does is set up an automatic bias and POV. It also means that we, as editors, are taking a position that it is name calling and it is not factually correct (and I don't know if it is name-calling or correct). And, it means that very positive, positive, and balanced commentary will be allowed, and perhaps some very carefully worded negative commentary. But very negative commentary is then excluded. This means that if a number of the most prominent atheists in the western world (or perhaps world) are united in their strong condemnation, it will not be allowed—in an encyclopedia which is supposed to capture all notable ideas.
The following sentence presents a very positive position: "Biographers, Mormon and non-Mormon, agree that Smith was one of the most influential, charismatic, and innovative figures in American religious history." It would be unfortunate and very un-encyclopedic if we keep that but exclude a very negative position.
In any case, I'm quite satisfied that your edits addressed, in a significant part, the POV issues that exist. I personally would not vote for it to become a featured article without including, even in passing, the atheists' position. But that's just me.
Again, thank you again for the addition. It is very welcome. Airborne84 (talk) 19:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Please also check that I didn't misrepresent the source when I adjusted one sentence. It's just that when we list one position, and then follow it with "however", it can present the appearance of favoring the latter view over the former. Better is to simply state one position and then state the other. Airborne84 (talk) 19:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I think it was more accurate before in the sense that there isn't anybody advocating those theories anymore, probably in part because psychology has come a long way in the last 70 years. Vogel is fairly certain that Smith "did not inherit epilepsy from a grandfather whose seizures were the result of a head injury" and he of the theory about paranoid delusions he says, it "has not fared well" (with a citation to an earlier article). I'll respond to your longer post in a bit. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

(Shrug) You can revert if you'd like. But as written the passage reflects the same sentiments with less appearance of POV. And since this article appears to be the subject of POV claims fairly often, I recommend the current version. However, if the edit actually misrepresents the source, it should not stand. Thanks again. Airborne84 (talk) 06:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Addition of 14 year old wife, Helen Mar Kimball into Polygamy Section

Latest comment: 10 years ago35 comments8 people in discussion

To add context to the age range, I have been in a revert "war", which isn't a war, but folks seem to think it is, so here I am.

In the polygamy section, Emma's reaction is noted. Stepping into her shoes, it would probably be easier to have another wife in the marriage if that woman was my age. Her rejection of polygamy should be obvious when considering the age of Helen Mar Kimball: 14. This information gives great context, and allows the reader to understand why Emma reacted poorly to a God given commandment. Villaged (talk) 19:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for making a post on the talk page. I believe your addition is based on a couple of incorrect assumptions, for instance the assumption that Kimball was a wife in the usual sense of the word. As far as I can tell, Kimball was "sealed", but then continued living with her parents as if nothing had happened. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the wives who that actually got Emma's goat were the ones in her own age range who began living in the Smith household. Anyway, my main concern is that starting to list exact ages and link the names of wives in the body of the article is diving into too much detail. We name the first and second wives, give an approximate age range, and provide a link to List of Joseph Smith's wives for those who are interested in the details. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
We list the age range of the wives, but leave out the youngest and the oldest, thus not representing the information that's most important to the character of these marriages. Sealed or not, living at home or at parent's, she was his wife. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Villaged (talk • contribs) 20:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm try to understand where you're coming from on this. What exactly is, in your opinion, "the information that's most important to the character of these marriages"? ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
I think it's easy to see that within the paragraph as it was, it spoke to the age range of the wives. This provides further insight to the age ranges. Villaged (talk) 21:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Adding the information that at least one of Smith's wives was fourteen would increase the yuck factor for most 21st century readers. However, for what it's worth, Fawn Brodie gives her age as 15.--John Foxe (talk) 21:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
The LDS Church itself lists her age as 14. I agree on the yuck factor, but polygamy itself is also a yuck factor, so it's all yucky. Villaged (talk) 21:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Before we get carried away here, how uncommon was this in frontier areas? Even today in some states a bride can be as young as 15, in at least two states even younger. Dougweller (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
This isn't about getting carried away, nor is it about modern acceptance. It's about giving the age range of the brides. I think that we should also include the oldest bride in there. I was doing that research when folks went to a revert war stance. Villaged (talk) 22:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
As for myself, I think it is sufficient enough to note that Smith had a certain number of wives 20 and under. What purpose would it serve to list the exact age of each woman who claimed to have been sealed to Smith? It would merely serve to blacken the reputation of a man whose ethics and morality have already been greatly scrutinized and maligned. Enough is enough. I think we should leave things as they are, unless the consensus feels, for whatever reason, that mentioning the younger wives is somehow pertinent to this matter. --Jgstokes (talk) 22:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
No one is asking to list all of the ages, just the youngest and the oldest to be included. This has nothing to do with morality or ethics, unless you think that this is unethical? It's absolutely pertinent to the matter when speaking about the ages of the wives that he married. Villaged (talk) 23:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
It's a difficult issue, given the societal contexts involved. From today's perspective, it definitely intensifies the yuck factor, as mentioned, but people of the mid-19th century generally did not have that type of reaction to a marriage of an adult male to a 14-year-old female. Suitability for marriage was pretty much based on physical development, not age, and somewhere around 3 per cent of American women were married by age 14.
So ... I'm not sure what to do with this. Including the age without the context could carry with it unspoken implications, but at the same time, I don't think it's a huge problem to just include the fact. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for commenting. I think this idea about a "yuck" factor is useful but ultimately distracting. We shouldn't (in my opinion) be deciding on what to put in or take out of the article based on that. There will always be those with personal agendas who want to focus on certain details that will make the article more or less yucky, but instead of focusing on that we should look at it as what best represents the sources (weight etc) and what works best editorially. The language about the four wives under the age of 20 comes straight out of Bushman's book, so I feel we're good on the first point. On the second point, the addition of specific names and ages makes the sentence uncomfortably wordy, and adding the name and age of his oldest wife as proposed above would make it even worse. Also, to simply say that Smith "married" a 14 year old isn't quite accurate, (it certainly wasn't in the Warren Jeffs sense of the word) and there's not really room in the paragraph to make that distinction.

Lastly, in case you didn't see the diff, instead of just deleting the wording about Kimball, I moved it to the footnote, since that has often proved to be an acceptable compromise when someone insists on placing undue emphasis on this or that. ~Adjwilley (talk) 03:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that that approach is sensible and fair, and I agree with it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
I also agree that this is a more than fair compromise. This way the fact can appear without giving it the "yuck factor" spoken of or violating Wikipedia's policies about giving undue weight to certain issues. Well done, Adjwilley. Thank you very much! --Jgstokes (talk) 07:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
When I saw how the OP titled this section yesterday it tickled my memory, but I didn't know why until this morning when I remembered User:JosephSmithMarriedA14YearOldGirl, who showed up last year wanting to promote a certain fact. When blocked for username violations they questioned whether a new user name of User:HelenMarKimballExisted or User:ThereIsAnArticleOnHelenMarKimball would be allowed. [17]. Probably not worth an SPI report, though both users don't appear to be new, but interesting to note certain similarities. ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Seriously. A sock puppet? Me? Do you really think that there's only one person in the world who knows this fact about JS? I mean, for goodness sake, the LDS Church just published an essay that fully owns this fact. Villaged (talk) 20:32, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think I called anybody a "sock puppet". I just said you didn't appear to be new here. Your use of the term "sock puppet" isn't helping that much, as I rarely hear that term outside of Wikipedia-related discussions, but then I'm not much into internet forums, so I assume it's just me. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
What do you think a SPI report is? You're just tossing that out there and then saying that it's not worth it in my case, but that there are similarities. Even if I were new, I would be offended by this. Villaged (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Funny. From what I have seen outside of WP, there is a reasonably sized movement in certain quarters to have JS "exposed" as a pedophile, so I wouldn't be surprised if, over time, multiple individuals approach the same horse with stick in hand .... (One funny thing about these people that I've noticed is that often when they find out about JS–HMK for the first time, they seem to assume that no one else knows about it and that they must therefore spread the word. I suppose it's that way for a lot of things for some people.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
After reflection on this, I completely disagree with the notion of hiding this in the footnotes. From reading the comments, it's clear that many of you are using your beliefs in the LDS church and Joseph Smith as Prophet to color what you want done with a major point about JS's polygamy: hide it so that investigators won't see it. The truth is, that he married a 14 year old girl. Stating that he married a "few women under 20" sweeps a fact, undesirable as it is, under the rug. The yuck factor is distracting, yes. He married a 14 year old. Yes. It's the equivalent of not mentioning Abraham Lincoln's senate time and stating that he performed time as a "legislator". In other words, you're trying to cloud the fact too obtusely. Finally, yes, many people will come "with this stick in hand" as it's a huge fact that is missing from this otherwise well written article. Villaged (talk) 20:31, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. One thing you should know. Not all people who have commented on this issue believe Smith to be a prophet. This article is contributed to by those who accept him as a prophet, those who believe he was a con man, and everyone in between. To balance the discrepancy, there's a little principle called consensus. This means that no editor or group of editors can put anything in an article contrary to the opinion of the majority. And it appears that the majority opinion in this case is in favor of either not including this fact at all, or, if it is included, to only include it in the footnotes. Sorry if you can't/won't accept that, but that's the way Wikipedia policy works. If you don't like it, you can complain to the admins. But don't expect much sympathy. As long as a consensus decision has been made and is backed up by reliable sources, then the decision will likely stand. Sorry. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:54, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Majority rule does not equal consensus. There isn't consensus on placing this in the footnote, nor is it in the body. I am aware of my options, but clearly, folks here are trying to hide this information that has been deemed, "yucky". The yuckiness does not take away the truth of the matter: he married a 14 year old girl. And in a section that talks about his private life, his married life, marrying a 14 year old is a BIG FACT. To dismiss it in the footnote, or nowhere at all is not to do service to the article, as you're just hiding/obsfucating facts. Villaged (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Villaged, if the information is included in a footnote, it's not missing from the article. But as to the point you made, it's probably not terribly productive to get into various users' motivations for editing in certain ways. I have no doubt that some users edit this article in an attempt at apologetics and to make Smith look as good as possible. I have no doubt that some users edit it to discredit Smith and make him look as bad as possible. (There are also many who attempt neither, of course, and try to be "fair".) I've seen editors throw accusations at each other both ways on issues such as this, and it tends to go nowhere and doesn't really help things. I find that for each individual editor, it's best if I just assume good faith, even when I know that there will in fact be some percentage of them who edit in bad faith. When I disagree with a particular editor on an editing issue, it's just not fair for me to assume that they are editing in bad faith, because I think most of them will not be. And even if they are, at least it leads to more decent interactions that can resolve the issue. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
You think there are apologetics here? Just read this talk article. I'm actually surprised by the fact that if the Church has come out and said that this is fact, that the apologetics just haven't admitted that and placed it in themselves. Villaged (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I know there are. But that doesn't mean I automatically discount edits by those users or make a deal out of it. Nor do I assume that that is their primary motive. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Disagree with putting it in the footnotes. It needs to be in the main body. Owtc (talk) 13:53, 10 November 2014 (UTC)— Owtc (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. (blocked as sockpuppet; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Villaged)
I support putting it in the main body—within reason. There is no need to list all the ages in the main body. However, a reasonable compromise here may be to change the wording from "Ten of Smith's plural wives were under the age of twenty" to "Ten of Smith's plural wives were between the ages of 14 and 20." That identifies the range without unnecessarily getting into detail. Airborne84 (talk) 18:09, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I like that. It doesn't hide the fact in the footnotes, presents the information without being too wordy. That's really good. Villaged (talk) 23:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Putting something in a footnote does not "hide" it. Removing it from the article altogether might, but footnotes are part of the article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I added something like that to the article. It seems a good compromise.--John Foxe (talk) 00:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I can be happy with that. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not happy with it. This revision (probably unintentionally) results in a text that redundantly reads, "...and during the next two-and-a-half years he married or was sealed to about 30 additional women, ten of whom were between the ages of 14 and 20, and ten of whom were already married to other men (though this was usually accomplished with the knowledge and consent of their husbands). Ten of Smith's plural wives were under the age of twenty, while others were widows over fifty". The next revision takes out more context, implying (incorrectly afaict) that he was sleeping with the wives of other men. It also blanked a bunch of sources.

I pulled out my copy of Bushman tonight and re-read the sections on polygamy. I usually turn to Bushman's book when I'm uncertain of how much weight to give something, because it is pretty much universally accepted as the best biography of Smith. Anyway, Bushman mentions the ages of some of the wives, naming several by name and recounting their stories. He doesn't mention Kimball by name, or give her age in any part of the book. The closest he comes is in a parenthesis on page 492 where he's talking about the initial anguish the women, particularly the younger ones, must have felt. It reads: "(Ten of Joseph's wives were under twenty.)". For a detailed list of the wives, he directs readers to Compton's definitive work on the subject. If the leading 700 page biography on the subject doesn't bother to mention Kimball, why is it so important that we mention her in the corresponding 10 page encyclopedia article? The compromise of linking her in the footnote here is more weight than Bushman gives her in his entire book.

The question nobody has answered is why this is so important. Is it important enough to abandon good encyclopedic writing, to ignore WP:WEIGHT, and to deviate from trying to follow the best reliable sources? Is increasing a "yuck factor" more important than impartial writing and accuracy? Anyway, I have reverted the problematic changes for now, pending further discussion. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I've listed a few notes below:

1. We are not writing a book that aligns with Bushman. This is an encyclopedia and names, dates, ages, etc. are encyclopedic. It is unclear to me why a discussion of weight is a significant concern about including encyclopedic material which, in this case equates to about the same number of words as the previous version.
2. I didn't even address the term "the yuck factor" above before because it is not relevant in Wikipedia's policies. Encyclopedic information that is "yucky" to certain people can be found everywhere on Wikipedia—in articles on mass murderers, for example. It might be less offensive for some people to just state that person xyz murdered about 25 people and leave it at that. However, the facts about the people he/she murdered are encyclopedic. I propose we stop talking about "yuckiness" and just focus on Wikipedia's relevant policies.
3. I didn't propose listing the name of Kimball. Please consider my specific proposal above that changes the existing wording in the article to "Ten of Smith's plural wives were between the ages of 14 and 20." That is reasonable, encyclopedic, and does not overwhelm the reader with detailed information. Further information can certainly be listed in a footnote. Thanks again. Airborne84 (talk) 07:38, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
As for the appropriateness of this, waking up this morning and seeing that both CNN and the NYT have reported on this, with the NYT going front page, tells one that it's a major, relevant fact about JS. So now you have the Church itself talking about it, the NYT talking about it and CNN talking about it. Yet, the Wikipedia is arguing if the fact is too "yucky" to put into the article.
Unless there are any objections in the next couple of hours, I'm going to place the language back in per my edits yesterday. I thought it was balanced and read well, plus it took out the double language cruft that had accumulated. Villaged (talk) 12:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
@Villaged, "yucky" was never given as a reason for exclusion. It shouldn't be a reason for anything - inclusion or exclusion. (See above where I said it was ultimately a distraction.) Anyway, I didn't know about the church essays, blog posts, or the NYTimes article. How long ago was that published? @Airborne84, I've slipped the wording back into the article, this time without the redundancy or blanking. Thanks ~Adjwilley (talk)

Revelations

Latest comment: 10 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

The Revelations section has the following passage "Smith's first recorded revelation was a rebuke from God for having let Martin Harris lose 116 pages of Book of Mormon manuscript, chastising him for "fearing man more than God".[196] The revelation was given in the voice of God, and Smith, as a speaker, was absent from the revelation." I confess I have no idea what the last sentence means. In what sense was Smith "as a speaker" "absent from the revelation"? It sounds as though he somehow wasn't there when the revelation occurred. Since I'm assuming that the Voice of God was not heard by other people, I don't see how it could be conveyed unless Smith told people about it, so I don't know how he could be "absent" "as a speaker". The only sense I can make of this is that it's saying he heard what he believed was the voice of God, either inside his head or as a voice coming from somewhere. And that this voice was clearly not his own, but felt strongly like something coming from outside himself. Is this what is meant, or is it something else? Paul B (talk) 16:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Paul Barlow: Thanks, I will try to think of a better way to word that. The idea of the second sentence is that the revelation reads as if God were simply speaking. There's no other narrator, and it's not as if Smith were recounting an experience. (This is interesting since many future revelations, including the Book of Mormon, are given in a similar manner, which is different than most of Smith's contemporaries and most religious leaders in general.) Does that make a little more sense? ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:14, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Ah, right, thanks. So you are referring to the written form of the revelation. So you mean he doesn't say "God told me that...." etc? The style, then, is similar to the Quranic revelations? Paul B (talk) 17:25, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Exactly. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Bold edit

Latest comment: 9 years ago13 comments7 people in discussion

Is there consensus for this edit? I've reverted it twice now, and have been reverted twice myself. My problem with it is that it blanks sourced material with no good reason with the effect of implying (incorrectly) that Smith entered into garden-variety polygamous marriages with the wives of other men. This is not true. The source says,

All told, ten of Joseph's plural wives were married to other men. All of them went on living with their first husbands after marrying the Prophet. The reasons for choosing married women can only be surmised. Not all were married to non-Mormon men: six of the then husbands were active Latter-day Saints. In most cases, the husband knew of the plural marriage and approved. The practice seems inexplicable today. Why would a husband consent? Bushman p 439)

Also problematic is the wholesale replacement of "plural marriage" with "polygamous marriage". Plural marriage is a specific subset of polygamy, is the language used in the source, and it's ok to be specific. I don't see it as being particularly confusing: it's pretty clear what the term means. Thoughts on this? ~Adjwilley ([[User talk:Adjwilley|talk] ]) 03:13, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There has been no consensus for this edit, to my knowledge. I believe this is another incident that falls under WP:UNDUE. I'd say if the sources bear out this viewpoint, it should be included. If, however, that is not the case, then we should continue to exert every effort possible to ensure that a neutral point of view is maintained. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 04:02, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused. Which edit are you talking about, and what part specifically do you think is is WP:Undue? ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. "Plural marriage" and "plural wives" is used throughout the article. I'm not clear on why it's usage is being eliminated from only one section. The section from where it's being eliminated also uses it later on. From what I have seen, it's at least as common in sources to refer to the Mormon practice as "plural marriage" as the more generic "polygamy". "Plural wives" or "plural wife" is far more common than "polygamous wives" or "polygamous wife". I've also put the parenthetical statement back in, since it is discussed in several of the sources and is quite relevant (not to mention fascinating to readers, as Bushman notes). Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
As the guy who made the edits, I'll respond. So my thought process was that within the Polygamy section, there were several references to polygamy next to plural wives, and that the language was entirely inconsistent. Making it consistent for the reader, so not to introduce the idea that there is a difference between a polygamous marriage and a plural one was my intention. As for the blanking of the material, I'd propose reworking the sentences to state that those were polyandrous marriages. Perhaps a new section created for Polyandry? Villaged (talk) 13:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I think we have to consider the section in context. "Polygamy" is section 5.3.1. In the header to that section, 5.3, it states, "Smith taught that the highest level of exaltation could be achieved through 'plural marriage' (polygamy), which was the ultimate manifestation of this New and Everlasting Covenant." So using "polygamy" and "plural marriage" or "plural wife" in the following section is not going to cause confusion, IMO—it's already been explained. ("Plural marriage" is also used in earlier sections, and in those instances it's generally wikilinked, so if readers don't know what it is when mentioned there, they can easily find out.) "Polygamy" is the generic; "plural marriage" is the Mormon doctrine, so it makes sense to me to use the latter in this context, along with generic usages where appropriate. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I am having a hard time understanding what Mormon plural marriage is that isn't polygamy. You say polygamy is the generic, but is that not what the Mormon doctrine was? What was was the special spice that was added to polygamy to make it something distinct? It is just polygamy named something else. Owtc (talk) 14:14, 13 November 2014 (UTC) (blocked as sockpuppet, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Villaged)
"Plural marriage" is the euphemism preferred by Mormons for their particular form of polygamy. The article could certainly state that, but the article isn't obligated to use preferred euphemisms exclusively. - Nunh-huh 16:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
No one is arguing that "plural marriage" should be used exclusively. I'm only saying it's OK to both terms, since sources commonly use both. Villaged (and his sock) seem to be arguing that "polygamy" should be used exclusively. The section is named "Polygamy", and I'm fine with that. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I resent the fact that you refer to owtc as "my sock". That was never proven, and you admitted yourself that there is no need for evidence for a sock puppet investigation. Anyway, back to the edit at hand, should we instead call the section Polygamy/Plural Marriage? Only Mormons refer to polygamy as plural marriage and our audience is something other than just Mormons. Villaged (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
That's OK, you can resent it. I'm comfortable aligning my opinion with the checkuser results. (I have not admitted what you have said I admitted, however—I summarised the evidence on your talk page.) As I stated above, I'm fine with the section being titled "Polygamy", as it is now. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)In short, we should follow the sources and use both terms, though I think that's too awkward for the section title which is fine as is. Generally speaking, we should usepolygamy when referring to the practice of having multiple wives and plural marriage when referring specifically to the form of religious polygamy practiced by early Mormons. But the argument isn't about what Mormons vs. non-Mormons say, but what reliable sources say. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think "plural marriage" is necessarily a euphemism, but it is a specialized term used only used by Mormons in a Mormon context. Unless we are quoting a source, I don't see much of a case for using the term "plural marriage" when the more standard term "polygamy" would suffice. COGDEN 01:16, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

First Vision(s)

Latest comment: 9 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

To try to avoid edit wars that in the past I have started, I'm starting off with the talk page to talk about my proposal. I have seen the light.

The article states the standard story about the First Vision, however, there are several, other versions that JS is responsible for. The references can be found at the Church's own article on the subject: https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts

I'd propose something like: "Over the next twenty years, Smith told several versions of his visitation to resolve his religious confusion. While praying in a wooded area near his home, he said variously that God, Jesus Christ, and/or angels had visited him. In the most popular version of the First Vision, Joseph said that God had told him that his sins were forgiven and that all contemporary churches had "turned aside from the gospel."

This eliminates the "in a vision" piece before God, as that makes it sound like this wasn't something that Smith believe happened to him for real. It also addresses the multiple vision versions. Villaged (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest leaving well enough alone. Although the current paragraph isn't skeptical enough for my taste, it's a decent compromise. It notes that 1. Smith did not tell the story until after he had founded the Church, 2. that the tale was unknown to most early Mormons, and 3. that the First Vision did not become the founding event of Mormonism until much later.
When you open a can of worms, it's often hard to coax all the worms back into the can.--John Foxe (talk) 21:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
This text has been relatively stable for a long time, and I may have even contributed some of the wording at some point, but looking at it now, I think we can do better. I think it has too much detail, rather than too little. For example, who really cares whether there were trees in the area where the vision was said to take place? Also, the language "God the Father and the Son" probably has to go. I don't think that Smith ever explicitly claimed that. He just strongly implied it in some of his later accounts. But I don't think we should get into the whole "was it angels or God/Gods" controversy. Shy not just call it a "being"? Also, who other than inside baseballers really cares about the Methodist preacher's opinion? What about something like this?:

In several later reminiscences, Smith said that around the time of his early religious uncertainty, a being appeared to him in a vision and forgave him of his sins, and/or told him that all contemporary churches were corrupt. Modern Mormons consider this "First Vision" to be the founding event of Mormonism.

COGDEN 23:41, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Objective?

Latest comment: 9 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

but the two were not reconciled until September, after Emma began participating in temple ordinances and received an endowment.[288] Endowment? By who? God? Is this article suggesting that God influenced her? I think only facts are allowed!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.156.65.14 (talk) 15:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

"Endowment" here means the endowment (Latter Day Saints)—a Mormon rite or ritual. They reconciled after Emma Smith participated in this ritual. I think that's all it means. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the confusing language on that. It's probably sufficient to say that she participated in "temple ordinances". ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Although this might be a little bit misleading, because there was no temple at the time (1843); I think most "temple" ordinances were being performed in the Red Brick Store at this time. Maybe just "participated in the endowment ceremony", with a wikilink on endowment ceremony? Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Wow, I didn't even think of that. I like the idea of just saying endowment ceremony, but I don't think it will help readers who should be able to understand what we're saying without having to click on the link. "Endowment" I think is too unfamiliar a term to mention in passing without further explanation. I'm trying to think of other alternatives to "temple". ~Adjwilley (talk) 07:53, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
We might be able to get away with using "temple", given that they were ordinances that were always intended to be done in temples, it's just that at the time the temple was under construction. (The "temple" could describe the intended nature of the ceremonies rather than the location where they are performed.) I was also trying to think of a substitute, but can't really come up with anything better. (I thought of something along the line of "higher church ceremonies", but I don't think that's very good.) Sometimes, despite our best efforts, nothing really works better than using the jargony word with a wikilink for those who are unfamiliar with the term. If we're trying to avoid jargon, I do think "ceremonies" would be better than "ordinances", though. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:07, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Adjwilley and Good Ol’factory Just offering an opinion here. I think Temple is a confusing word to an average reader and for lack of a better alternative, "higher church ceremonies" would give readers a better picture even if they did not know exactly what it was. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:30, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Birthplace of Joseph Smith (Leader of Mormons)

Latest comment: 9 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Joseph Smith was not born in Sharon, Vermont, but closer to the nearby town of South Royalton. Check on Google. ---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.72.241 (talk) 00:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

He is believed to have been born in Sharon. As it states in Joseph Smith Birthplace Memorial, "the monument [to Smith's birth] itself lies just within the corporate boundaries of Royalton, Vermont. However, the foundations of the cabin that it is believed Smith was born in lie just over the boundary line in Sharon, Vermont." Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I just noticed that the first reference in the Joseph Smith Birthplace Memorial is a statement and not a reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Birthplace_Memorial#cite_note-1 Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:40, 17 March 2015 (UTC) That isn't a legitimate legitimate as a reference. Where on google was this found?Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:42, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I think it is simpler and easier to just say born near the present day Vermont towns of Sharon and Royalton. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:47, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Witnesses to the Book of Mormon

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The current edit of the Book of Mormon section talks about the use of the seer stones without talking a great deal about the witness statements. While I think the section is worded pretty neutrally, I don't think it does enough to address the logical skepticism a reader would have about the stones. does anyone have any thoughts? Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, delete it. It's all nonsense anyway. Should wp include all examples of nonsense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.146.141.67 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Family question?

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Shouldn't the death of his son go in the article too? Joseph and Emma's firstborn son died on the day of his birth, June 15, 1828, after the incident where Joseph was rebuked for letting Martin Harris take the plates.97.102.61.193 (talk) 17:13, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

It's noted in the third paragraph under "Founding a church (1827–30)". Bahooka (talk) 17:40, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
  1. ^ Events in the Life of Joseph Smith
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