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Talk:Juan Martín del Potro/Archive 1

< Talk:Juan Martín del Potro
Latest comment: 5 years ago by J. M. in topic The pronunciation
Archive 1

Requested move

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The name of this article should be changed to "Juan Martin del Potro" because that is the name used on the English-language websites of the official governing bodies of tennis, which are the Association of Tennis Professionals and the International Tennis Federation. This is also the name used on the English-language website of Davis Cup. Finally, this is the name used on the English-language websites of the following Grand Slam tournaments: the French Open (Roland Garros), Wimbledon, the Australian Open, and the US Open. Tennis expert (talk) 04:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

2009

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I trimmed down the section for 2009, here's the original:

2009

In his second appearance at the Heineken Open in Auckland, New Zealand (after a straight-set defeat to compatriot Agustin Calleri as a wildcard entry in 2007), Del Potro was the top seed for the tournament. After a first-round bye, Del Potro defeated Latvian Ernests Gulbis in three sets in his opening match of the season. He went on to defeat Serbian Viktor Troicki in the quarter-final and Swede Robin Söderling in the semi-final. Del Potro then defeated American Sam Querrey in the final 6–4, 6–4 to win the title, the fifth of his career.[1]

Seeded eighth at the Australian Open, Del Potro disposed of Germans Mischa Zverev and Florian Mayer in the opening two rounds, before defeating third-round opponent Gilles Muller in four sets, coming back from a set down. Del Potro did the same in the fourth round, defeating Croatian Marin Cilic 5–7, 6–4, 6–4, 6–2. Del Potro then was dominated by Roger Federer in the quarterfinals 6–3, 6–0, 6–0.[2]

At the BNP Paribas Open, Del Potro was seeded 6th. He defeated Ryan Sweeting, Jurgen Melzer, and John Isner en route to the quarterfinals, where he was eventually defeated by world no.1 Rafael Nadal 6–2, 6–4.

At the Sony Ericsson Open, Del Potro came back from a double break down in the third set at 0–3, to defeat Rafael Nadal in the quarterfinals 6–4, 3–6, 7–6(3). This was the first time Del Potro had defeated the World No. 1, Nadal. Despite defeat in the semi-final to Andy Murray, 6–1, 5–7, 6–2, he had gained enough ranking points to reach a career high of world no 5. AlonsornunezComments 15:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

9/14/09- fixed W to be a bold W next to his 2009 US Open win like other tennis winners.. fixed federer v del potro score to the correct one (second tiebreak score was incorrect) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.101.118 (talk) 00:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Juan Martin Del Potro Dumps Sam Querrey ESPN.com, January 15, 2009
  2. ^ "Federer to face Roddick in semis". BBC Sport. 2009-01-27. Retrieved 2009-01-29.

4 titles in as many tournaments?

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I'm not sure what this phrase is supposed to mean. He won 4 tournaments straight, but the source says nothing about him being the first to do so. Also, it's misleading as these four tournaments were certainly not his first tournaments. I'm in favour of removing this line. 82.168.48.157 (talk) 20:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

If you read the article, you'll see that it has been properly quoted. Here's the part that mentions the info in question, from the ATP official website: [1]

In capturing four straight titles he becomes the first player in ATP history to win his first four titles in as many tournaments. He is now the 12th different teenager to win at least four titles in a season; 10 of the previous 11 all reached No. 1 in their career.

--Nat91 (talk) 04:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Career statistics section

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Grand Slam performance table is duplicated as it is also included in the Singles performance table beneath. Remove like the articles on other tennis players? Feudonym (talk) 04:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, as long as it matches the same format as other articles, and doesn't lose any information. Also, redundancy isn't good. Kevinmon (talk) 02:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

Latest comment: 15 years ago14 comments2 people in discussion
This review is transcluded from Talk:Juan Martín del Potro/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I'll be reviewing this article for GA. Nat91 (talk) 20:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

I have contributed to this article in the past and I like what the editor has done with it. However, there are things that need to be fixed.

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:  
    The prose in the Tennis Career sections doesn't flow well, mainly because it's crowded with scores. The last paragraph in the 2003-2005 sounds very awkward and needs to be reworded.
    I've had a go at this. Spiderone 19:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
    I copyedited a bit too. For GA, it's okay. Nat91 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
    B. MoS compliance:  
    The second paragraph of the lead contains too much information and does not summarise the most important points (for example, the year he qualified for his first GS is irrelevant for the lead). Remember all the points in the lead should be mentioned throughout the article. See WP:LEAD for more information.
    I don't know what else needs mentioning. Spiderone 19:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
    The lead wasn't working for me, to be honest. As I mentioned above, the second paragraph had too many information not suitable for an article lead. It wasn't attrating me as a reader and summarising why the person is notable. I put some work into it. Nat91 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:  
    Why aren't there any references in the lead? IIRC, the first and third paragraphs of the lead contained citations.
    I don't think there is anything in the lead that isn't already sourced in the main article. Spiderone 06:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    I know everything in the lead tends to be cited throughout the article, but it is better for leads to be cited too. Nat91 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:  
    One thing though, Bleacher Report doesn't seem to be a very reliable source.
    I'll try and replace it if possible. Spiderone 06:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    C. No original research:  
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:  
    It does address major aspects when it comes to tournaments played and scores, but for instance, it barely mentions the Andy Murray/Del Potro incident in Rome 2008 (and it is not cited, btw). It doesn't mention the fact that he even considered retiring due to injuries in early 2008, and how his current coach changed his carrer. He also won the pretigious Orange Bowl as a junior. Just a few points to consider.
    I couldn't find a source to say he considered retirement Spiderone 18:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    Well, he was very discouraged by his injuries at that time. While I couldn't find a source in English either, I added something about the problems he had regarding injuries - among other additions. Nat91 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
    B. Focused:  
    Too many unnecessary scores. Not every match score is relevant. Also, I believe the article could be expanded with quotes from the player. So, he won his first tournament - what did he feel?; he just won the US Open - what did he say?, what did others (former players, tennis writers) say?. Otherwise, the article seems to be a recolection of scores that can easily be found on the ATP site.
    This is difficult. He didn't receive much attention from the English-speaking media until 2008 so all quotes would have to be recent ones. Spiderone 20:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    It's not really that difficult. I added the ones I considered most important for now (winning his first tournaments, the USO, his coach's influence). Although I admit I knew where to find most things since I'm a tennis fan myself! :) Nat91 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:  
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:  
    Seems stable.
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:  
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:  
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:  
    I'm going to put it on hold for a week.--Nat91 (talk) 04:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
    Okay, after Spiderone's work and my final contributions, I believe the article is suitable for GA. Good work! Nat91 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

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Recurrence of wrist injury section

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Del Potro injured his left wrist in 2012, his right wrist is fine. So this is not a recurrence. I'm going to re-title it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmoledMan (talk • contribs) 07:53, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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The pronunciation

Latest comment: 5 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

In theory, the [n] in Juan (Juan Martín) is assimilated to [m]. But @J. M.: said the pronunciation in the source is [n]? The pronunciation by Juan Martín del Potro himself @Mr KEBAB: LoveVanPersie (talk) 15:10, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

@LoveVanPersie: This may be dialect-dependent, but I'd still transcribe it [xwam]. I don't have a source though. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
If it is dialect-dependent, should this be the default, and the only authoritative pronunciation in the article? I know this is not a reliable source, but Spanish/Pronunciation on Wikibooks agrees that "n" is pronounced "Like n in no. Before p, b, f and v (and in some regions m) sounds as m in important". If it is really only in some regions, and obviously not in Juan Martín's region, then I really would not choose it for this article.—J. M. (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
@J. M.: You're right, Wikibooks is not a reliable source. Phonemically, Juan Martín is /xwan marˈtin/ or /xwaN maRˈtiN/, if you're into archiphonemes. But Help:IPA/Spanish lists phonetic, not phonemic symbols and the IPA-es template encloses transcriptions within brackets, not slashes. The [n -> m] assimilation is mandatory before /p, b/, but I'm not sure about /m/ and I'd rather not discuss this further without a valid source. This is not very important by the way, as Spanish has no phonemic distinction between word-final nasals. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
He very clearly pronounces it as "xwan maɾˈtin". And so do Spanish-speaking commentators I can hear live right now in his Basel match. I can understand that someone can say something like "xwamaɾˈtin", but if you really insist that it is "xwam maɾˈtin", that is, with double "m", then you really have to provide a very authoritative source for this claim, as it directly contradicts the provided source, that is, the pronunciation by Juan Martín himself. —J. M. (talk) 15:20, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

@J. M.: here and here it is said that the sequence /nm/ is generally realized as [mː], or at least that /n/ weakens being in coda position before a consonant. According to this text (pp. 133-134) it becomes a coarticulation [n͡m] (probably a way to say it is not a pure [mː]), as opposed to /mn/ (→ [nː] or [mn]). Moreover, Spanish phonology states /n/ is realized as a bilabial before other bilabials, without specifying this does not occur before /m/. Since we are supposed to transcribe a standard pronunciation, even admitting he actually “clearly” pronounces it with [n], we should leave it as [xwam], possibly with a side note.   イヴァンスクルージ九十八（会話）  17:30, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

The pronunciation should first and foremost reflect the actual pronunciation (and it cannot in any case contradict the provided authoritative source). The fact is that Juan Martín himself and basically all Spanish-speaking commentators (and commentators in other languages, too) say [xwan maɾˈtin], not [xwam maɾˈtin] (e.g. [2], [3], [4], [5]). So that's how his name should be pronounced. Wikipedia always prefers real-world usage in everything. Besides, Spanish has many regional variations, there is no single Spanish pronunciation that applies to all dialects. Juan Martín is Argentinian.
Now, you mention [n͡m]. And that indeed looks correct. But [n͡m] (or even [mː]) is not [m], and definitely not [m m]. When native Spanish speakers pronounce his name slowly, they say [xwan maɾˈtin], that is, with a clearly separated [n] at the end of "Juan". When they say it more quickly, they say [xwanmaɾˈtin], you could perhaps describe it as [xwan͡maɾˈtin], and maybe, just maybe, in some cases even [xwamːaɾˈtin]. But definitely not [xwam maɾˈtin], that is, with a double "m" with a pause between the two "m"s, and with a clear, separated "m" at the end of "Juan". That is simply wrong and I've never heard anyone pronounce it like that. So, as a compromise, I suggest the [xwan͡maɾˈtin] variant. It is both correct (people really pronounce it like that), and it is supported by your source.—J. M. (talk) 19:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
@J. M.: first of all, the [m m] transcription can be a broader way of representing [mː], in this case because it spans two separate words (Wikipedia’s transcriptions are only as narrow as to approximate single languages when there are dedicated helps); also, the source suggests [n͡m] stands for something between [nm] and [mː], possibly [ɱm], in which case it should be approximated as [m m] in our transcriptions (just assuming).   イヴァンスクルージ九十八（会話）  20:13, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
I really do not think the transcription should be based on theoretical assumptions (based on a couple of inconclusive theroretical sources), approximations and guesswork, especially when they contradict real-world usage. The sources are not unequivocal and convincing and really do not suggest to me that it should be [xwam maɾˈtin]. I really think two separate names, "Juan" and "Martín" are different from the examples mentioned in your sources, that is single words or nouns with prepositions like "conmigo" or "con María". When people say his name slowly and clearly, there is no doubt at all that the pronunciation is nothing else than [xwan maɾˈtin] (e.g. [6]). That's the "basic", elementary pronunciation of his name. It is only when people say "Juan Martín" very quickly when the [n] at the end of "Juan" gets less distinct (but does not disappear completely), but I do not think this has much to do with Spanish pronunciation. This is just a general feature of human speech, typical for many different languages. When you say a couple of words very quickly, they sort of get welded together, the n͡m joint in quick speech is not unique to Spanish. But I don't think the pronuncation should try to emulate quick, casual speech. It should just present the basic ("canonical") form.—J. M. (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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