Talk:KK FMP (1991–2011)

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BetacommandBot 07:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FMP logo.gif

Image:FMP logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

FMP just merged into Red Star system, this is just wrong what STrider90 is doing, since you can't present FMP as Red Star, Red has much bigger tradition, more trophies etc., fans, and even now there is club called FMP (former Radnički FMP) in the Serbian league, that play in FMP hall with FMP crest and shirts, and that club will continue FMP tradition, not Red Star which didn't changed anything since fusion with FMP, it's 100% same club.--Obelixus (talk) 13:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Does this club exist any more?

I thought this club didn't exist any more, since it got merged with Crvena Zvezda in 2011? Then why does the history section in the infobox say "KK FMP (2013–now)"? I'm confused. --Christomir (talk) 10:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

According to relevant sources it is the same club-

• Information about the club on site ABA league
• Information about the club on FIBA

--Bobik (talk) 13:00, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

@Bobik: Read this or this --Bozalegenda (talk) 17:00, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I added the official sources of ABA league and FIBA witch are more relevant than any of yours. And on those sources you can see that this is the same club as it was in 2003 or 2007. --Bobik (talk) 09:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Bozalegenda: you use unofficial portal and cant't be relible like official league cites is. FMP is a member of FIBA like any other club in the World, and also the member of ABA league so those cites have correct information about the history of the club, and other. B92 is relible but not a official like FIBA and ABA is. So I am wondering who is vandal here? --Bobik (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I hope that other members of wiki society will discus here about this problem because Bozalegenda using less relevant reference and not official cites. --Bobik (talk) 14:18, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Bobik: I will not discuss with people who are doing vandalism here. You will see what will hapen now.--Bozalegenda (talk) 14:19, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Bozalegenda: You can't ignore relevant and official web cites of the leagues. That is not correct on wikipedia. I am not doing any vandaloism here, I just use regular, official reference. And what do you think about my reference? What can you say about them? --Bobik (talk) 14:23, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Bobik: As i already mentioned i will not discuss with people who are doing vandalism here. Sources that i added are OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT by the president of KK Crvena zvezda Nebojsa Covic. But ok if you want to have war with me, no problem you will get it.--Bozalegenda (talk) 14:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Bozalegenda: Is my sources official web sites of the league and top basketball organization? It is inposible that they lie or have wrong information about own members. You dont't have any arguments and talk about some vandalism. No way! I don't know about any war. I am talking about official refference, and not some not so relevant web portals. --Bobik (talk) 11:30, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Bobik: and @Bozalegenda: come on, you need to discuss and solve this out. If any admin noteces the situation at this article he will problably block everyone involved for edit-warring and 3RR. I think you shuld each one expose your arguments here on talk-page and ask for a 3rd opinion. FkpCascais (talk) 16:20, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

@FkpCascais: I'm sorry but i can not discuss with Bobik. He denied all reliable sources, so i can not have a normal discussion with him.--Bozalegenda (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

That is not true. I have 2 relevant sources but Bozalegenda denies those. So I dont know what to say... --Bobik (talk) 10:24, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Wtf are you doing here? To many wiki pages have been ruined fur such idiotisms. This is of course ONE CLUB, as proved with official sources. The "malversations" with CZ 11-15 should of course be noted in the article.31.15.147.139 (talk) 01:21, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Merge with KK FMP Beograd

Per above sources (FIBA and ABA official profiles), these two are the same clubs – furthermore, both articles have the same current roster and the same coach, so either delete one article or change one of the club's to "defunct" and delete the current roster, there cant be two articles with basically same content. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:10, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

It is pretty much difficult to understand formal rules about this issue. But one think is for sure ABA league on its site have good information about the club and which is the member of this league. According to this site club KK FMP paling this league, not KK FMP Belgrade. So possible answer can be merging of this two text... --Bobik (talk) 14:13, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

This cant be merged. Its two total different clubs, with different history. FMP Beograd is currently playing in ABA League, and this old FMP is not active from 2011 when he started cooperation with KK Crvena zvezda. This old FMP is now registered as KK ILR Zeleznik, [1][2] and is not active on any level.--Bozalegenda (talk) 01:40, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

This is not true. According to ABA league official cite this club is playing the league. --Bobik (talk) 07:54, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, according to FIBA, the KK Reflex who won the ABA league in 2004, is the same club as the one who is playing in ABA league today, so the club founded in 1975 under the name Železnik (this article) is playing in ABA league today Snowflake91 (talk) 12:13, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Thats not correct, read sources that are provided. Im one of the main editors of basketball here, so im not doing vandalism here. And this user Bobik is not editor of this wikipedia... he just came here to make vandalism. You can see his edits, and mine also and you wil see who is wrong here. This old KK FMP merged with KK Crvena zvezda in 2011, and did not compete till then. There was no club under name FMP in 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons. Meanwhile Radnički basket changed his name in 2013 to FMP [3] and this club is currently competing in ABA league and Serbian League. And all basketball editors here are aware of that, and this version is for years here. Bobik is just doing vandalism, he is not editor of this wikipedia.--Bozalegenda (talk) 14:09, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Snowflake91, Bobik and officiall sources (FIBA, ABA). It's the same club.31.15.147.139 (talk) 22:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey Snowflake91 are you agreeing with yourself :) Why did you left this comment as anonymous? FIBA not consider this FMP as a club that is currently competing, i dont know where did you get that information? If you think about FIBA game-center that site is just for stats, and is not relialbe for this things... that site has too many mistakes, i know that cause im almost every day at that site.--Bozalegenda (talk) 02:30, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Really? This IP is not mine, cant you see that this user actually reverted my edits in January? My IP is 86.58.36.145, so think twice before accusing someone of sockpuppeting. Snowflake91 (talk)

According to ABA league official this club is playing in this league. --Bobik (talk) 07:56, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not Snowflake, I can assure you that. I just happen to follow ex-yu sport and I think we should follow official sources. I don't really care for FMP but I think it's absurd we have tons of articles for same clubs. If competition officials say it's one club, it's one club. Just mention the legal malversations in the article.31.15.147.139 (talk) 22:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

There are not tons of articles for same clubs, this is two total different clubs. This old FMP stopped to compete in 2011 when they started cooperation with KK Crvena zvezda. This version is here for years, there are multiple sources for this and now one person (Bobik) comes and start to vandalise this page. This is not old FMP cause there was no FMP in 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons, and by version of Bobik people should think that FMP was competing whole time but thats not correct. KK Radnicki Basket changed his name to FMP and from 2013 that club is competing under name FMP and this old FMP is registered as KK ILR Zelenik. Thats all offical sources by Nebojsa Covic (president of the club).--Bozalegenda (talk) 01:39, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes it is two different clubs and that is not a question. Question is which club is playing ABA league. According to official ABA league cite this club is playing and that is only matter. I have nothing to say more than this. When they change this information of the club then we can change it here. --Bobik (talk) 08:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually newspaper sources are more reliable than self-published source on the official website, and the reason why FIBA has the same entry for FMF is simply to prevent confusion, it is easier to maintain their historic season-by-season database with only one entry than creating new entries just because the club changed its name/relocated. Strictly according to sources, KK ILR Železnik is techically a NEW club, founded in 2015 and is currently competing only with junior teams, this "KK FMP" was disbanded in 2015 when their agreement with Zvezda ends, while KK FMP Beograd changed its name from KK Radnički to KK FMP in 2013. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:53, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Technically yes, but practically... I think we can't just ignore officiall sites. In a similar case some time ago I was told that official sources are beyond newspapers.31.15.147.139 (talk) 11:04, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Identifying and using independent sources, the neutral, independent sources like newspapers are always better than something that is written on the club's official website. I checked everything again and user Bozalegenda is probably right about everything, the reliable third-party sources have confirmed that KK FMP became KK ILR Železnik and is currently competing only in "junior" competitions, while the old KK Radnički was moved to Belgrade when the "real" FMP started cooperating with Zvezda, and changed its name to FMP. The official ABA website is actually a bullshit, the text on ABA league club's profile is just directly translated from HERE, even ABA league probably doesnt know which club competes in the league. One easy solution for the whole mess would be to simply merge both articles, and create separate article named "KK Radnički Basket", and cover the club's history from 1970 to 2011, while everything which goes under the name "FMP" since 2011 is covered on the single article. For Radnički, we can set them as "dissolved" / merged to KK FMP in 2011. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, technically bozalegenda has right ofcourse, but Wikipedia is not a court, we are talking here about sport clubs, not legal subjects. Yes, just make Radnički defunct in 2011 or 2013, when they moved to Železnik and renamed. Otherwise, if you want to be consistent, you need another article for FMP untill 1986, because these one here (legally) was formed only in 1991.31.15.147.139 (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

We cant make Radnički Basket defunct cause that club is currently competing, just under name FMP Beograd. This old KK FMP is defunct. We also have articles about two KK Vojvodina so all this is ok.--Bozalegenda (talk) 02:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

This club is playing in ABA league

All sources that Bozalegenda used are portals, newspapers and so on. But all of them talk about formal subject of the club not the sports club it self... I dont't ignore any of those and therefore you can't ignore the official cite of ABA leauge:

• In 1975 the club was established in Železnik under the name KK ILR Železnik as a member of sporting society Ivo Lola Ribar Železnik. The club played its home games at the open court of Braća Jerković elementary school, where the basketball hall of KK FMP Železnik was built two decades afterwards. In 1991 the club changed its name to KK FMP and continued it successful sporting path, soon becoming famous for excellent work with young players. Today and former Serbia national team members such as Miloš Teodosić, Miroslav Raduljica, Milan Mačvan, Dejan Milojević, Duško Savanović and Marko Gudurić are just a few of those, that went through their famous school. Under the name of the FMP, the club achieved its greatest successes in the 1990s, the first trophy came for the club – the Yugoslavian National Cup. In Serbia and Montenegro, the club claimed three more national cup trophies, while twice – in 2004 and 2006 they also became the best in the ABA League. Yugoslavian National Cup: 1997. Serbia and Montenegro National Cup: 2003, 2005, 2006

Please we must include those informations because it is official and relevant also.--Bobik (talk) 11:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

News portals and newspapers are more reliable than self-published sources like ABA League website (which is directly translated from the club's site), now stop reverting back or you will be reported for edit warring, the consensus was reached above (2 agreements, 1 oppose), the article was fine before you show up and started mass reverting everything in January Snowflake91 (talk) 11:27, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

ABA league is official cite and newspapers is not. Newspaper just write about informations which publisher receive from sources. On serbian wiki we have u huge discusion about this problem and we made agreement. There is no way that I will refuse official source of ABA leage - NO WAY.--Bobik (talk) 11:32, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Well thats your problem then, because per Wikipedia sourcing rules, third-party independent sources (newspapers, online news with credibility authors, television news etc.) are more reliable than something that is written directly by the entity in question (self-published source), in this case ABA's website. And how would you explain This – it is clearly written here that the club competing in ABA was established in 1970 with previous name "Radnički", and it doesnt have previous two titles from 2004 and 2006 under "honours" section. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't ignore any of your sources, only you ignore mine. I have no idea what is realy happening on all newspapers, portal etc. And I can not explaint what how it is possible that all those sources haven't got the same information. It is obvious that in this case there is some legal transformation wich no sources has explain definetly. But I see that official ABA league cite have one information that nobody can't ignore. --Bobik (talk) 07:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Bobik. There are also newspaper sources, which claim its the same club, like this one: http://sport.blic.rs/kosarka/domaca-kosarka-i-aba/fmp-u-evrokupu/89kqx5b But you are ignoring half of the sources. 31.15.147.139 (talk) 09:51, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Why are you deleting KK Zvezda and KK ILR from the infobox, and changing it to ""KK FMP 2005–present", which is OBVIOUSLY wrong and misleading? Then simply delete all Zvezda things from the article and move it to KK Crvena zvezda and mention everything on Zvezda's article; and if KK FMP is playing the aba league, then in which league is KK FMP Beograd playing, in the same league too? Since when can two different teams play under the same name in the same league? Why are there even two articles with the same name, if this "original" FMP played in the league for the whole time according to you? Snowflake91 (talk) 10:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

According to ABA league officials this club is not playing in this league. Nobody is playing in this league according to me, I'm not relevant. Relevant is official ABA league cite. There is no club that currently have name KK IRL, that was the name of this club at the begining. --Bobik (talk) 13:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Really? In Serbian Company Register, the club is registered as "KK ILR Železnik" since 2015 - LINK, furhtemore they have "wwwkkcrvenazvezda.rs" at the "Contact Information", and "Stephen Supanca 15a" as street address, so it obvious that the club which played under Zvezda's name is now playing only with youth teams in U16 league Snowflake91 (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC) Snowflake91 (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

On that source you can't read about sport club itself. That is Legacy cite about legal subject of the club which is not the same thing. Like I sad - it is important to know does this club play in ABA league? According to ABA league it's playing. That's only I'm talking about. Nobody writes about any sports clubs throuh Company register because it is not the same thing. Some clubs have more than one legacy subject... --Bobik (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

We should follow the German wiki Link and do exactly like that. Firstly, redirected KK FMP Beograd to KK FMP, and then cover both history on the same page, like on German wiki (FMP Železnik (1975 to 2011) and Radnički Novi Sad (1970 to 2009)), and then KK FMP Belgrade (2011 to present), everything between 2011 and 2015 should go to Zvezda's page if the team merged/cooperated and competed under that name, really simple solution and absolutely nothing will be wrong with it since both club's pre-2011 history would be properly described on the same page, they are the same club now if they are bassed on the same address, with same name and logo. Actually I am thinking that "KK ILR" a.k.a "old FMP" is responsible for youth selections, while this "new FMP" a.k.a former Radnički is resposnible for the senior team, but they are basically the same club, they are just registered as separeted entries in the register (a lot of football clubs, for example, has different legal entries in company register for their youth teams and senior teams). Snowflake91 (talk) 17:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree.31.15.147.139 (talk) 17:58, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

HERE is the prototype of how the page should look like after the merge, I covered KK Železnik/KK FMP/Reflex and KK Radnički / Radnički Basket with own section each, and the overall 2013–present section starting with 2016-17 season, I even added both years of establishment in the infobox. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:17, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Great31.15.147.139 (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

There is no way that this two article's should be merged. This version was here for years, and will stay. KK FMP Beograd has his own history, and they were competing for many years in Serbia under name KK Radnicki Novi Sad. So this two can not be merged. Are you aware that here we have basketball editors that are doing everything to make this wikipedia reliable. And now all of us are wrong except this guy Bobik who did nothing to improve basketball articles here... he came and wants to destroy everything. And what German wikipedia have with this??? You want to say that German wikipedia knows better that multiple sources that are provided. And all sources that are provided are not some newspaper articles like Bobik said.. all that sources are official announcement's by KK Crvena zvezda (Zvezda merged with FMP), all that sources was provided by the former president of FMP and now of KK Crvena zvezda Nebojsa Čović. And also there was no agreement about this on Serbian wikipedia, i just left discussion cause i dont have time to discus with Bobik. You cant compare English and Serbian wiki, cause Serbian wiki is full of mistakes and non-updated articles. There you have version were two FMP are playing in ABA League in 2016-17 season. And that's off course not correct. And english wiki is more reliable then all other wiki's and we can not have such a nonsense here. This old FMP merged with KK Crvena zvezda in 2011, and from 2015 they are registered as KK ILR Zeleznik when cooperation between two clubs stopped. In 2013 Radnicki FMP (previosly Radnicki NS and Radnicki Basket) changed their name to FMP Beograd. There was no club under name FMP in 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons, so this version of Bobik where he claims that this FMP is competing whole time is NONSENSE. Self-published source on their website can not be reliable in this case... And Eurobasket.com (site that all basketball editors use here) is reliable on english Wikpiedia and is neutral in this case and have valid information, also there are multiple sources by the official KK Crvena zvezda.--Bozalegenda (talk) 02:14, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

The sources are conflicting, even some reliable newspapers (provided by IP user above) claimed that the team who is competing this season in ABA league was formed in 1975 and won two ABA titles. And if Eurobasket.com is "reliable" then we should delete this article, because according to them, this club never even existed – if you go to ABA history section, 2005-06 for example, and click on KK Reflex, the page redirects to Zvezda page which is totally wrong, if you go to 2006-07 season and click on KK FMP, they redirect you to former KK Radnički formed in 1970, which is again wrong, talk about being reliable.

And, by looking at the page history, there has been mass reverting in March 2016 (so disruptive editing has been going for over a year), and then again in June, July in August 2016, not to mention that in February 2017 it has been reverted for about 25 times in just one week. This will go NOWHERE, since both versions of the story are supported by the reliable sources, so the mergal is the only option here to resolve the conflict, even if the clubs had different history prior 2011, they are obviously one club now and both club's history can be kept at the same page. If the page gets reverted just once more without a consensus here, I will request a full page protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection until the consensus is reached, so this means that only administrators will be able to edit the page. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

All my sources are official announcement's by KK Crvena zvezda and Nebojsa Covic. The only one source that Bobik have is self-published text on KK FMP webpage, and ABA league site just put that on their webpage. This old FMP is registered as KK ILR Zeleznik and it's not compete anymore, and this two clubs can not be merged cause they are not the same clubs. This club KK FMP Beograd wants to be old FMP, but they are not. Every club in Serbia is registered, and this FMP who plays now in ABA league is registered as a club from Novi Sad... and do you know why? Cause they are formed as a KK Radnicki Novi Sad. They later relocated to Belgrade, but number of their registration code stayed. There was a little vandalism here before, but I and other users reverted that.--Bozalegenda (talk) 02:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

And where is the proof that the club is registered as "Novi Sad"? If I use the same Serbian Company Register (or whatever is it called) as before, when I searched for "KK ILR"; if I search for "KK FMP" now, I get a club which is registered in Belgrade, with first entry in register on 13.11.1998. Andf Čović just said that the cooperation between two clubs ended, he didnt say "the club which was formed in Novi Sad will be known as KK FMP from now on", so we cant use that as an ultimate source of which club is playing in the league. Also, Srbijasport.net, which is a reliable source and used on many sites around wiki, treats all clubs which played in 2005-06, 2012-13, and 2016-17, as one club. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:32, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Mate let me explain you. In 2011 this old FMP (two time winner of ABA league) just changed name to KK Crvena zvezda Beograd.[4][5][6][7][8] They just used Crvena zvezda's name, emblem, and colors. In 2015 cooperation between two clubs stopped and Crvena zvezda was again that old one who competed before 2011 [9][10] [11] [12] and from that moment this FMP is registered as KK ILR Zeleznik.[13][14][15] Meanwhile Radnicki Basket (originally Radnicki from NS) changed his name first to Radnicki FMP, and in 2013 to FMP Beograd. So there was no club under name FMP in 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons, there was only Radnicki FMP. And all that with FMP Beograd was changed here four years ago, and now in 2017 we can not merge this two clubs to one article... we didnt merge them in 2013, and we can do that now in 2017 just because one user (Bobik) started with vandalism at this page.--Bozalegenda (talk) 03:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

It is not "vandalism" if his edits are supported by several reliable sources like club's official website, ABA official website, FIBA official website, this article etc., imagine that FMP won another regional title, EVERY media on the world would report it as their third title, but here on Wikipedia it will be marked as their first title then? Snowflake91 (talk) 11:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Mate when did FIBA official website said that this this two are the same clubs? If you think about fiba game center site then you are making a big mistake. That site is just for stats, and is not supposed to know anything about this problems. I'm almost every day at that site and i found many mistakes there, for example this player never played for Radnicki Basket in his life, and per that site it looks like he played. As i already mentioned that site is only for stats, and not for this kinda of problems. Only source that Bobik have is self-published text on FMP website, which is just copied to ABA league website. And that Blic article have a HUGE LIE in that text, cause FMP did not played in Eurocup so that explain how much reliable is that article. I dont wanna say that Blic is not reliable, but it's not that reliable as B92 or Novosti. And Blic also had many texts about cooperation between FMP and Zvezda [16].--Bozalegenda (talk) 01:53, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree, I just realised that the club "KK FMP" actually competed in the 2014-15 season of the Serbian League, while this "original" FMP still competed under Zvezda's name in that season, so its pretty clear that KK FMP Beograd is the club which competed in the Serbian League and therefore qualified to the ABA League, KK FMP is defunct. Its actually kinda logical, in 2015–16 Zvezda became "old" zvezda and they used KK FMP licence/entry to compete in the league, there cant be two separate clubs emerging from the same club and still both competing in the same league, if this old KK FMP would be competing, they would need to start in the lowest division of the Serbian basketball league system in 2015-16. The only explanation to back up this club (KK FMP) to be the one competing in the league – in 2015, right after the cooperation ended, the KK FMP Beograd would need to disband/merge into KK FMP, but we have zero evidence of that happening, neither in news reports neither in official Serbian Company Register, where the club KK FMP is clearly registered as "KK ILR Železnik" since 2015, just as Serbian reliable news sites reported. So, the only sources which suggests that KK FMP is still competing, are two self-published sources, and one irreleavnt biased opinion from the team's coach. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:40, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, legally. But legally also history of Crvena Zvezda 2011-2016 should be blank. I suggest you guys join this portal.31.15.147.139 (talk) 11:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:KK FMP Beograd which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:02, 27 April 2019 (UTC)