Talk:Kapoor family

Kapoor family's origin

Kapoor family is not of Pathan origin.Kapoor family is of Punjabi origin of Khatri caste.So irequest you to write this. 122.163.208.219 (talk) 22:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I too have pointed this out, and as such, ammended the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.201.240 (talk) 16:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC) there are no hindu,s in pathan people, someof hindus lives with pathans inpakistan and afghanistan, tey were slave of them from hundred of years,or some of them were traders and went there

rmv vandalism (?)

I have removed the following statement:

The head of the Kapoor Dynasty, known as "Her Godliness Eshita Kapoor" is the forerunner of Bollywood cinema. She has acted/directed/produced/and written over 6000 Bollyfood films in her lifetime.

While it may not be impossible to have acted in over 6000 bollywood films, it it, at the very least NEAR impossible. That was what grabbed my attention at first. Having then looked up this so-called "Eshita Kapoor", I was not surprised when I couldn't find any reference to her. This is surely vandalism --Maurice45 (talk) 10:12, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Where are the Kapoor's from - Peshawar or Lyallpur?

Sources like this(cited by others user too) clearly says that Kapoor family hails from PESHAWAR not Lyallpur, the family shifted to Lyallpur for one generation after which they shifted to Mumbai, but the family is originally from PESHAWAR. Winston786 (talk) 14:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think we need a centralized WP:RFC to clear this issue up because it is creating revert disruption on family members BLP articles as well. Off2riorob (talk) 14:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC):

Indeed I agree. Winston786 has just come back from a 2 week block for edit warring, so I want to avoid anything like that in future. Thanks --SH 12:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Note also, this article seem to place Pritiviraj's place of birth as Punjab. Kapoor is a Punjabi Khatri surname no doubt and the diaspora maybe traced to the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh where Khatri traders were actively encouraged to move to wider parts of the Empire such as Peshawar and even outside to Kabul. Thanks --SH 12:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I think we also need to have a look at the whole field of family articles and see if there are differences within them all and get a consensus agreement on where the families religious and ethnic roots are. What religion do the family members follow? Off2riorob (talk) 13:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

This family are Hindu. Kapoor's generally tend to be Hindu Punjabi or Sikh Punjabi. Thanks--SH 16:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

What does my block has to do with it? thats just dodging the issue, we are talking abt Kapoor family here not diaspora so the whole "the diaspora maybe traced to the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh where Khatri traders were actively encouraged to move to wider parts of the Empire such as Peshawar and even outside to Kabul" as mentioned by Sikh History is not even worth considering, if the family member itself claims to be from Peshawar, how can u come with your own suggestive arguments? Winston786 (talk) 09:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Quoting from the source

"Raj Kapoor told me that his family hailed originally from Peshawar, but his grandfather retired as Tahsildar from Samundri and settled there"

It categorically says that the family originally hails from Peshawar and and also tells about the relation of the family with the Lyallpur that some editors are confusing as their original hometown. Not to mention that Raj Kapoor himself was born and brought up in Peshawar. Winston786 (talk) 10:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is any confusion, but there are some salient points here:

1. Many articles claiming they are from Punjab and Peshawar, therefore both should be included.
2. Your approach as an editor has got you blocked before, and your breaking of the WP:3RR rule will get you blocked for longer.
3. I noticed you have deleted a valid source from The Guardian, which would be considered a WP:Verifiable source which states

The Guardian states, "Kapoor's stardom was rooted in a Punjabi dynasty, founded by his grandfather,".

Again that could get you blocked.

What I suggest is:

1. Seek genuine consensus.
2. Stop edit warring.
3. Change your confrontational attitude.

Thanks--SH 11:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Lets just present citations and discuss, clearly there is a dispute and there are differing reports. In citations and discussion we might be able to find a compromise wording, perhaps state that some sources say this and some sources say that. It seems no one disputes their religion is Hindu? Off2riorob (talk) 11:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Here are the facts we know:

1. They were definitely Hindu
2. They are Khatri by caste, who tend to be Sikhs and Hindu's.
3. Kapoor is a Punjabi Khatri surname.
4. Khatri (Hindi: खत्री, Punjabi: ਖੱਤਰੀ) is the Punjabi adaptation of Sanskrit or Pali word Kshatriya (Hindi: क्षत्रिय, Kşhatriya).
5. They moved around a bit but most articles refer to them as a Punjabi family. See here.
6. Most Punjabi clans tend to be originally (about 2000 years ago) "out of India" decendents.

Thanks--SH 12:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

So? The mentioned a link in which the family member himself categorically mentions them hailing originally from Peshawar and then shifting to Lyallpur only for one generation ...is there any source that suggests that they shifted to Peshawar from Lyallpur, I guess no...and btw stop this WP:3RR thing(which works only for 24 hrs btw, I know it better than you, its one of ur gimmicks to deviate from the topic I guess. I don't think there is any confusion that the family is from PESHAWAR and not Samundari/Lyallpur or any other place. I suggest you change ur confrontational attitude and your habbit of pushing Pro-Punjab POV in everything. Winston786 (talk) 12:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Please remember WP:AGF, you are going to get yourself blocked again. This time permenantly. A question:

1. Do you acknowledge the term Khatri is the Punjabi term for Kshatriya?

..and no offence but The Guardian is more of a WP:Verifiable source than some obscure link. Thanks--SH 12:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly plz remember about WP:AGF, ur threatning posture about recalling the old blocks only to deviate from the topic is non constructive. Lets be clear, are you denying that Kapoor family's hometown is Peshawar when it is categorically mentioned elaborated in the source(contrary to any other source). Khatri might be a Punjabi word, so how does that matter, Rajput is a sanskrit term but there are Punjabi Rajputs, Rajasthani Rajputs, Himachali Rajputs, Gujarati Rajputs etc. Winston786 (talk) 12:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Its not an "obscure link", it was there in the Daily Times (Pakistan) in 2006, Daily times is a well known Pakistani Newspaper. Winston786 (talk) 12:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll ignore the rest of the unconstructive comments but at least you acknowledge "Khatri might be a Punjabi word, so how does that matter". Do you acknowledge Kapoors are Khatri? Thanks--SH 12:43, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You are confusing yourself and me, Rajput is a sanskrit term but there are Punjabi Rajputs, Rajasthani Rajputs, Himachali Rajputs, Gujarati Rajputs etc, similarly if one is Kapoor or a Khatri, it doesn't mean that he is from Punjab only. Not to mentioned in this case family categorically says that they are originally from Peshawar. Winston786 (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Khatri is a Punjabi term 'only'. Just like the Nepalese use the term Chettri to describe Kshatriya's. Kshatriya is a Sanskrit term. Rajput as a term does not exist in Manu Smirti which defines caste. Rajput is a term that came into effect much later and is considered a subsection of the Kshatriyas. So you acknowledge the Kapoors were Khatri? Thanks--SH 12:56, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Hold on, you are deviating from the topic...read the heading agian, we are discussing the original hometown...and for one more time...the source I mentioned CATEGORICALLY says the family is originally from PESHAWAR. btw the whole point about "Rajput is a term that came into effect much later" is of no use in this discussion, Rajput is a community and Khatri is a community. Winston786 (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually no. We are trying to establish several things:

1. Were they Hindu? Yes
2. Were they Khatri?
3. Were they Punjabi?
4. Where were their origins?

So were they Khatri? Thanks--SH 13:05, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Whoa, this discussion was about their home town, was their ORIGINAL home town PESHAWAR?...Yes. There is no record of the family before their days in Peshawar, so nothing can be established regarding that period. Winston786 (talk) 13:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Does this mean that we can safely write that the family's original home town is Peshawar and certainly not Lyallpur? Plz finish this one before moving on to the other one. First answer, is there original hometown(verified) Peshawar or not?Winston786 (talk) 13:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

That is the point. There are contradictory sources. Thanks--SH 13:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Can u cite any contradictory source? Winston786 (talk) 13:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You are confusing the whole debate, the original discussion is about there native hometown. Finish this one first. Winston786 (talk) 13:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The discussion can run seprately yet together. Here is a list that states other origins and

Discussion

1. This states Pritvi Raj's father was posted in Peshawar but was from Lyallpur -Prithviraj was born on November 3, 1906 at Samundri near the town of Lyallpur (now known as Faisalabad in Pakistan) to a middle-class family of Punjabi Khatri origin. He could speak Punjabi, Hindi and Hindko.

His father, Dewan Basheswarnath Kapoor, was a sub-inspector of police. Prithviraj received his initial education at Khalsa College Lyallpur and at Lahore. His paternal grandfather, Dewan Keshavmal, was a powerful influence during his childhood. Baseshwarnath was posted at Peshawar, and so Prithviraj received his higher education at the Edwardes College, Peshawar, Pakistan and joined a one year programme in Law to become a Lawyer. It was here that his talents on stage first received expression.

1. Here again Lyallpur He was born in Prithvinath Kapoor in a middle-class landlord family in Samundri, a district of the industrial township of Lyallpur, Punjab, the son of a police officer. He got most of his early grounding from his grand father, Dewan Keshavmal. After finishing schooling at Lyallpur and Lahore, he enrolled at Edward College, Peshawar where he developed a taste for the theatre and earned a major reputation on the amateur stage in Lyallpur and Peshawar..
2. Same again here.

There are sources that state Pritviraj was born in Peshawar:

1. Here. This is feasible too if their father was posted as a policeman in various towns. Thanks--SH 13:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

They are not "contradictory" sources...all of them tells about their time in Samundari. This source is clearly covering that too at the same time mentioning about their native place. Its a source with a wider range, nothing is contradicting it. Winston786 (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

See, this quoted http://specials.rediff.com/movies/2006/feb/02slide1.htm from Madhu Jain's book - about Prithviraj Kapoor - it says his father was a Pathan from Peshawar - ? - Off2riorob (talk) 14:04, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You have mentioned the sources which tells about the family's time in Lyallpur, as I said This source here is covering all that and is clearly saying that the family hailed originally from Peshawar, but Raj Kapoor's grandfather retired as Tahsildar from Samundri. Winston786 (talk) 14:06, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I think historically all Kapoors are from Afghanistan, and this sources says he is his father was from Lyallpur (from a Middle class landlord family) and then got posted to Peshawar as a policeman. Thanks--SH 14:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Note that Madhu Jain's book - about Prithviraj Kapoor says Prithviraj's grandfather, the rather stately Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor, had been the tehsildar of Samundari in Lyallpur district (now in Pakistan). Thanks--SH 14:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

A "tehsildar" is a feudal title related to landlords in Punjabi villages, which indicates he was a man of some stature in that Punjabi village. Thanks--SH 14:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

It says that he was born in Lyallpur, as I said the family spending some time in Lyallpur is not a matter of dispute. Winston786 (talk) 14:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Again family members working or living in samundari is not a matter of dispute as it is established as per the source that family which originally from Peshawar spent some time in samundari. No other source clearly mentions the relation between Peshawar, Lyallpur and Kapoors. and Tehsildar is not a feudal title, its a Government JOB. Winston786 (talk) 14:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Tehsildar is a title that goes back to the Mughal (I used the wrong term in feudal No I was right, it is a feudal title introduced by the Mughals to collect revenue and maintain village hierarchy with Warriors at the top), but nevertheless an old occupation. Prithviraj's grandfather, the rather stately Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor, had been the tehsildar of Samundari in Lyallpur district (now in Pakistan). . If his Prithviraj's Grandfather (Raj Kapoors Great Grandfather) was from Samundri, that gives a good idea of their origins. Thanks--SH 14:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

During British era Tehsildar was a job designation. We don't need ideas i.e we don't need to speculate coz it is clearly mentioned that family is from Peshawar and then shifted to samundri before moving back to Peshawar and eventually ended up in Mumbai. Winston786 (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I see the problem. You have confused Raj Kapoors grandfather (Prithvi Raj's Father), with Prithvi Raj's Grandfather (Raj Kapoors Great Grandfather). There is no doubt Raj Kapoors Grandfather (Prithvi Raj's Father), retired as a Tehsildar, but that was to a job that was already been done before by HIS father. So Bashesharnath, took the job over from Keshavmal (who was already Tehsildar) upon retirement. Thanks --SH 14:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Possible but still the family remains a family from Peshawar who shifted to samundri before moving back to Peshawar and eventually ended up in Mumbai. Peshawar then Samundri then Mumbai, hence Hometown is Peshawar. Winston786 (talk) 15:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

"Being from Peshewar" does not mean this family isn't punjabi. Peshewar was ruled by the Sikh Empire and other Punjabi rulers before and after that. Besides that it is right next to the "official" border of punjab so it's not mutually exclusive. That being said The Guardian says they are a punjabi family and it doesn't seem you have any sources that say anything other than their family lived in various places, but that doesn't mean they are "from" a place where some members of their family lived for a job. Do you see what I mean? it seems like there is no source that categorically says they aren't punjabi.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

That Gardian article is written for the uk market and is unlikely to go into any detail about all this and I wouldn't like to see such an entertainment piece as a gold badge when there are clearly disputed claims. Actually they are not really imo able to be described as Punjabi, perhaps we should concentrate on the stuff we are sure about , that they are followers of the hindu religion, moved to Bombay/Mumbia from the area that is now Pakistan. That in a disputed situation is plenty for uninvolved readers. Off2riorob (talk) 17:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob The Guardian is actually one of the few WP:Verifiable sources we have, so don't be too quick to dismiss it. You will find that the vast majority of Administrators wold take that source over others. Thanks --SH 19:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

We are discussing the native city, that can be verified so what their forefathers did in 18th or 19th century is not even a matter of consideration(not to mention that all that will be suggestive and cannot be proved) why don't u read the heading? Winston786 (talk) 18:15, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure who your talking to, but anyway please assume good faith and be polite as possible, its disputed, someone lived in for some time in Peshawar and for sometime in Faisalabad/Lyallpur - so why not just add both, the family originates from ... and ... both of which are now in Pakistan. Off2riorob (talk) 18:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

A Summary and Consensus

Ok so here are the Generations:

1. Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor (Grandfather of PritviRaj) - http://specials.rediff.com/movies/2006/feb/02slide1.htm from Madhu Jain's book - about Prithviraj Kapoor says he was from Punjab and a Tehsildar.
2. Dewan Basheswarnath Kapoor (Father of PriviRaj)- This says "Baseshwarnath was posted at Peshawar, and so Prithviraj received his higher education at the Edwardes College, Peshawar, Pakistan and joined a one year programme in Law to become a Lawyer. It was here that his talents on stage first received expression..This says he later retired and became a Tesildar when he retired.
3. Prithviraj Kapoor- Madhu Jain's book - about says he was a Pathan from Peshawar.

It seems from this Pritviraj's Grandfather was a Tehsildar in Samundri, Punjab. These jobs were usually heredatory. This is conformed by the fact that Pritviraj's father retired and then became the Tehsildar in Samundri. I would be inclinded to add something like, the origin of the Kapoor family is unclear, some sources claiming he is a Hindoko Pathan, other that he is a Punjabi Khatri (btw you cannot be a Khatri and a Pathan). Thanks --SH 19:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Profit85 has made an absolutely valid point. There were Punjabi traders in Kabul up until the recent problems with the Taliban. They were from Khatri origins, many were Sikh. Thanks --SH 19:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Profit85 has assumed and speculated everything(specially in context of Kapoor family) we are not speculating here, we are mentioning the facts. There is no record or source of where Kapoor Family was prior to there days in Peshawar. So the whole theory about pre modern era empires is of no use. as per the established sources, Kapoor family was from Peshawar, moved to Samundari, moved back to Peshawar and then finally to Mumbai. I repeat we are discussing the Hometown here Winston786 (talk) 19:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

No, it is clearly mentioned hear that the family hails from Peshawar, it shifted to Samundari(for a Job apparently) and then moved back to Peshawar, eventually ending up in Mumbai. It is very categorically mentioned, the question of this discussion that "Peshawar or Lyallpur" is answered in an elaborated manner in no other source. Winston786 (talk) 19:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Well luckily it is not your decision. If the other editors decide on consensus you will have to go with it. Thanks--SH 19:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, as per this source, which categorically mentions Raj Kapoor saying that where the family hails from and also elaborates on Peshawar and Lyallpur connection of the family. It can be established that the family originally hails from Peshawar, it moved to Samundri, for a brief period it moved back to Peshawar and finally the settled in Mumbai. What is ur point about Peshawar and Lyallpur? Winston786 (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Look posting the same link over and and over and over again won't change a thing. Relax and let the other editors get back. Thanks --SH 19:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

This one also says that Kapoor's ancestral home is in Peshawar. Winston786 (talk) 19:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

There are several sources that say Prithviraj was born in Samundri. This is near Lyallpur which is currently in the Punjab section of Pakistan. His father was posted at Peshawar. The statsvet.su.se says "ancestral roots" in Peshawar. The earliest we are goint to be able to go back is Prithviraj's grandfather; we have nothing in writing that tells us anything concrete any further back than that. "Punjabi World" says Khatri but I am not seeing any of the other sources confirm this. Winston talks about an article in the Daily Times. Where is the link? I would like to look at that one. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 20:04, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

This article(you have already read this i guess) was in Daily Times (Pakistan) in 2006, as mentioned on the page. Please also note that this one clearly elaborates about the Peshawar and Lyallpur connection. Winston786 (talk) 20:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, ok, I did read that one but did not realise it was from the Daily Times. There is a lot to confirm the Peshawar and Lyallpur connection. At least four of the sources talk about it. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 20:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You know it might be helpful for each side to write down what they want the section to say, because it's not entirely clear what each side wants the section to read.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

That is a good idea, and please include which sources you intend to cite. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 22:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposals

Some proposals for lead (please add):

Sikh-history Proposal

1. The Kapoor family seems to have started off in Samundri,Lyallpur, Punjab, where Pritviraj's Grandfather (Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor) was a Tehsildar.. Pritviraj's father (a policeman)Dewan Basheswarnath Kapoor , and was posted in Peshawar where Pritviraj Kapoor and then Raj Kapoor spent a lot of their life. Basheswarnath later retired back to Samundri, Punjab, to become a Tehsildar. They were fluent in Hindoko and Punjabi. Some sources describe the Kapoors as Hindoko Pathans , and others as Punjabi Khatri . Pritvi Raj later stayed at a house in Matunga Bombay (known as Hollywood Lane), where many actors of post-partition Punjab settled.

Support This seems like more nuanced description of their background. However, this should add more stuff about why acting played such a prominent role in this family through all these generations or something. What I mean is this needs the inclusion of their acting background too.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Please feel free to add more. Thanks --SH 15:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Winstonr786 Proposal

1. Kapoor family hailed originally from Peshawar, Prithviraj Kapoor's Grandfather, Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor worked as a Tehsildar in Samundri. and his father, Dewan Basheswarnath Kapoor was a Sub Inspector of Police at Peshawar , In 1928 he left Peshawar for Mumbai to become an actor. He worked as an extra for the first few days in the silent film Challenge (1929). Later during an audition, he was selected to play male lead in the film 'Cinema Girl'. Kapoors describe "themself" as Pathan.

NOTE In This, this and this Kapoor family members themself are saying or are being quoted saying that they are Pathans from Peshawar unlike other sources. Their hometown is the topic of discussion. Winston786 (talk) 15:36, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Dianna Proposal

1. Prithviraj Kapoor, the first of the family to pursue acting, was born in 1906 in the town of Samundri near Lyallpur, in the Punjab province of Pakistan. His father, a policeman, was posted at Peshawar, and his grandfather was a Tehsildar in Samundri. Prithviraj's first lead role was in Cinema Girl in 1929. (This material would replace the first three sentences of the Background section)

The page is about the family not just Prithviraj Kapoor, so we need to mention where the family is originally from, the sources i have put has kapoor family members saying themself that they are Pathans and are from Peshawar. So mentioning that the family is a Pathan family from Peshawar is important as they are famous for it and often talk about it. Thanks Winston786 (talk) 20:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure the ethnicity is important here as it is not relevant to a career in acting. They are not famous for being Pathans but for being actors. Being Pathan does not help or hinder the acting career in any way and is thus not relevant. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 21:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course they are famous for being actor, thats not an issue here, we started this discussion about their hometown and thats what I am saying it was never about whether they are actor or not, the sources quotes them saying that they are Pathans from Peshawar and thats wat has to be mentioned, some users just deleted what i wrote about Peshawar due to unknown reasons and that was the issue from the start. Winston786 (talk) 06:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking, why don't we simply list the hometowns and occupations of the early family, make a statement about how they are sometimes considered punjabi and sometimes pathan and then detail their acting accomplishments. Is there a good article that sort of covers the family as a whole anywhere?--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 23:47, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok Diannaa ^(Talk), just need you to either support one of the leads above or write your own, and then we'll include it. Thanks--SH 07:27, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok support Dianna's proposal and mine. Lets get a majority consensus and include it. Thanks --SH 11:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

You can write about their time in Samundari but the TOPIC of discussion was The Hometown(Peshawar or Lyallpur)....and as per the sources it has been established that they call themself a Pathan family from Peshawar...it was not about the language or style of writing but a particular thing i.e hometown. It has to be mentioned that they are from PESHAWAR. Are you saying that they are lying about their own homeland? Winston786 (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

If we say that his father was posted in Peshawar that is in line with several reliable secondary sources. Secondary sources are preferred by Wikipedia over primary sources. This source does not contain the word Peshawar, yet you are using it as a source to support that statement. We need to get it right, and we need to use the sources that seem the most reliable. None of the sources actually say that the family was "originally from Peshawar", which implies a history going back multiple generations. They say what I said in my version. Multiple sources say they are Pathan, so if you include that fact I would not object. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 13:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

This one categorically says "originally from Peshawar". This one by a family member himself says from "North West Frontier Province"(Peshawar is the capital of NWFP), Thanks. Winston786 (talk) 13:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, we are going round in circles. Lets go with Dianna version and be done with it. All this other tittle tattle is irrelevant. I think we have WP:Consensus with Profit, and me willing to go with Dianna's version. Thanks--SH 14:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Our topic was the hometown which is clearly mentioned as Peshawar and family still claims to be from Peshawar themself rather than Lyallpur. This is not "tittle tattle" nor is it irrelevant, our topic of discussion was specifically Hometown, on WP we are suppose to write the facts, which can be verified. Winston786 (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Re-read WP:Consensus. We have it. Thanks--SH 14:36, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Topic was What is their hometown so what is the Consensus on that, Peshawar or Lyallpur? Winston786 (talk) 14:39, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The WP:Consensus is we go with Dianna's lead and if need be we mention both places, because their seems to be contradiction. 3 editors apart from you Winston agree with this. Therefore we have reached WP:Consensus. Thanks--SH 14:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

yeah, but the topic was never the lead section, the topic was The Hometown. There is no contradiction on their native place as per the sources they were Pathans from Peshawar(in their own words). So what is the consensus on their hometown? Peshawar or Lyallpur? Winston786 (talk) 14:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

We're mentioning both. In other words Diana lead.Thanks--SH 16:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposal was for reference, The topic was never the lead section, the topic was The Hometown. There is no contradiction on their native place as per the sources they were Pathans from Peshawar(in their own words). So what is the consensus on their hometown? Peshawar or Lyallpur? Winston786 (talk) 17:04, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Neutral input

I've been asked for some neutral input into this conversation. I've reviewed the discussion and the cited online sources. My initial reactions to the question "what is the hometown" are:

1. how can you answer the question without qualifying it in terms of the era, the people to whom it applies, or what you mean by "hometown"?
2. does it really matter in the context of the article?

Point 2 may seem flippant because it obviously matters greatly to the few editors involved in the conversation, but my point is: will all this intellectual effort actually result in a significant improvement in the article? My preference in this situation would be to state the facts, citing sources, noting contradictions but not elaborating on them, and leave the reader to draw conclusions. That inclines me towards the format given by Winston786 and Dianna; SH's "seems to have" sounds to me like WP:OR.

Back to my first point: the origins of the family are lost in time; that's normally the case - families don't usually have a clear starting point. An exception would be when an individual rose from obscurity to prominence and founded a dynasty, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. So when Raj Kapoor is quoted as saying "that his family hailed originally from Peshawar" I immediately question the meaning of "originally" - how do you define an origin in an evolutionary continuum? A related question is: what does he mean by "his family"? He could be referring to the family in which he grew up i.e. his parents and grandparents, or to an inherited knowledge of a longer line of ancestors. We don't actually know what he meant and it would be against WP:OR to try to draw conclusions, however well we believe we understand the personal and cultural values he would have attached to the words he used. I am uncomfortable with stating as fact Ishtiaq Ahmed's recollection of what Raj Kapoor said when what he said is so clearly missing context vital to its unambiguous understanding. Raj Kapoor's words are valuable as a description of his identification of his family's roots, but I feel they should be presented clearly in that context; we don't know what other family members would have said on the subject and it would be unwarranted to apply Raj's words -- and the emotions, memories, temporal context and self-identity that underlie them -- to the family as a whole.

I hope that gives some food for thought that may lead to a consensus (if only a consensus that you all disagree with me!). -- Timberframe (talk) 16:55, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree with you, but to say that family is a Punjabi family from Lyallpur is a wrong, as it gives a wrong information about them, we here on WP are supposed to write facts and work for making sure they are correct. In this one Shashi Kapoor, a member of the family himself is saying they are Hindu Pathans from North West Frontier Province(Peshawar is the capital of the province), so why to write that they are Punjabis from Lyallpur...In the other source, Raj Kapoor is quoted saying that the family hails from Peshawar. Its about not writing the wrong thing. Winston786 (talk) 17:16, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Winston786, you say that we here on WP are supposed to write facts and work for making sure they are correct. I agree, but only to the extent that wiki has policies on the type of sources we can cite, and the need to be able to verify that what we write accurately reflects what those sources say. Strange as it may seem (and some editors really do struggle with the concept) WP does not set out to be a definitive textbook, and nowhere that I've seen is there a WP policy on making sure that the facts that we write about are correct. Essentially, the facts that WP editors write are that "such a source says this", if we start to go down the road of trying to validate the facts that the sources write about we inevitably end up introducing our own perception of what is "correct" or crossing the line of WP:OR. I think this may be the underlying raison d'etre of this discussion: you all appear to agree what sources exist and what they say; you're disagreeing about how to synthesise their content. -- Timberframe (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

You are being very genuine my friend but check my sources for once we have a family member of the family in question saying that they belong to a particular area and are of particular ethnic descent. Its a small thing which could be easily added just by reading one source(this one). Why so much issue for adding it? Winston786 (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

We could turn the question around, too. Why is it so important to put them in a box as to ethnicity or geographical area? I don't think it is important and to do that, even in India, where status and caste and position in society are still so strongly emphasised. The reason why it need not be included is because it has little or no relevance for a career in the acting industry. Perhaps if they were a political dynasty rather than a family of entertainers would this question of ethnicity and hometown be more critical. But not for actors. Timberframe is correct in that we should not be synthesising the content but strictly pulling facts from the better-quality secondary sources and letting the reader draw their own conclusions. I will think about this this some more and post something further later. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 20:35, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Consensus Reached

Ok, so we 4 editor who think that this question of Ethnicity is not that important. We have several links that related the Kapoors back to Peshawar and Lyallpur. We have several that relate back to Hindoko and Punjabi. We have several that claim they are Pathan or Khatri. The point Timberframe raises is valid too. My ancestors came from the Black Sea area, but formally I my ancestors were part of Greater Punjab, and today I am considered Haryanavi. I say go with Dianna suggestion and be done with it. We have WP:Consensus and only one editor who keeps posting the same claim over and over again. Thanks--SH 22:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Sikh-History, for successfully moderating this discussion. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 23:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem. thanks--SH 12:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

References

Are the Kapoors Hindu?

In a nutshell this has been established. Thanks--SH 13:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Are the Kapoors Khatri?

The discussion has moved on. Are the Kapoors Khatri?--SH 13:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

No, its a new and seperate discussion, the original one is about their home town. Winston786 (talk) 13:30, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Whatever you say. So are they Khatri? Thanks--SH 13:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Get over with the pending one first. Winston786 (talk) 13:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Are the Kapoors Punjabi

This article says they are. Others describe them as Hindoko Punjabi. Thanks--SH 13:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

In This, this and this Kapoor family members themself are saying or are being quoted saying that they are Pathans from Peshawar unlike other sources where others people are saying that they are either Pathans or Punjabi. Winston786 (talk) 20:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Old news. See above. Thanks--SH 17:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

The Kapoors are Khatri. The use of the term Pujabi for them is likely relatively recent, the sikh texts, including the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh (Bachittar Natak, does not use the term Punjab. The old center of the Khatris was in and around Pothohar, where dialects of Hindko are still spoken (like in Peshawar). The region forms northern border of Pakistani Punjab. Prathviraj Kaoor's claim of being Hindu Pathan was not completely inaccurate. Malaiya (talk)

Summary of the sources and what they say

• http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/feb/10/bollywood-bit-part-nirpal-dhaliwal says they are Punjabi. The article is only peripherally about the family

• http://specials.rediff.com/movies/2006/feb/02slide1.htm contains quotations from Madhu Jain's book. Prithviraj Kapoor arrived from Peshawar at the age of 22. The family is Pathan. His father Bashesharnath was with the police. His grandfather Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor was the tehsildar of Samundari in Lyallpur.

• http://punjabiworld.com/Punjab-Worldwide/kapoor-prithiviraj.html says Prithviraj was born on November 3, 1906 at Samundri near the town of Lyallpur. The family was Punjabi Khatri origin. His father Dewan Basheswarnath Kapoor, was a sub-inspector of police and was posted at Peshawar.

• http://www.statsvet.su.se/publikationer/ahmed/artiklar_2006/41_prithviraj_kapoor.htm says Prithviraj spent much time in Samundari in his youth though the family roots were in Peshawar. The article mentions him as both Pathan and Punjabi. It says that Raj said his family was originally from Samundari.

• http://www.rediff.com/entertai/2003/dec/08shashi.htm contains an interview with Shashi Kapoor. He says the family is Pathan and from Northwest Frontier province.

• http://www.junglee.org.in/pk.html says they are Pathans. Prithviraj was born in Samundari. His father was a subinspector of police and worked in Peshawar.

• http://cineplot.com/prithviraj-kapoor/ Prithviraj was son of a police officer in Peshawar. Family is Kshatriya warrior class.

• http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?224841 says they were an established Pathan family in Peshawar. Prithviraj was son of a police sub inspector. Prithviraj's son Raj was born in Peshawar.

Some of the sources Sikh-History used I was unable to get to load on my computer to review them, so sorry.

--Diannaa ^(Talk) 21:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposal

Prithviraj Kapoor, the first of the family to pursue acting, was born in 1906 in the town of Samundri near Lyallpur, in the Punjab province of Pakistan. Prithviraj's grandfather, Dewan Keshavmal Kapoor, worked as a Tehsildar in Samundri and his father, Dewan Basheswarnath Kapoor, was a sub-inspector of police stationed at Peshawar. In 1928 Prithviraj left Peshawar for Mumbai to become an actor. He worked as an extra for the first few days in the silent film Challenge (1929). Later during an audition, he was selected to play the male lead in the film Cinema Girl.

We have conflicting reports as to whether the home town was Samundri or Peshawar, so I would like to leave it out. Sikh-History has some sources that say they are Punjabi but I was unable to get them to load, so I am unable to verify that. So I would like to leave the ethnicity out as well until we are sure what to put. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 22:15, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

References

File:Shammi Kapoor.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Hindu Pathan?

Some user is adding that Kapoors are "Hindu Pathans", what does that even mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PISCOSOUR786 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

It means that they practice Hinduism and are of Pathan origin, tracing their roots to the city of Peshawar.

• This is well established, read what experts say about them. "For this Hindu Pathan family, actors belonged to the 'debauched' world of wandering street performers and nautanki groups, people outside the pale of society" (The Kapoors: The First Family Of Indian Cinema by Madhu Jain, published by Penguin Books India. [1])
• If that's not convincing enough, listen to what they themselves say. Talk:Anil Kapoor#Pathan--Fareed30 (talk) 22:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The Kapoors are Khatri. The use of the term Punjabi for them is likely relatively recent, the Sikh texts, including the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh (Bachittar Natak, he too was a Khatri), do not use the term Punjab. The old center of the Khatris was in and around Pothohar, where dialects of Hindko are still spoken (like in Peshawar). Many Khatris have lived in the frontier region, even Afghanistan for many centuries, and often physically resemble Afghans. The Pothohar region forms northern border of Pakistani Punjab. Prathviraj Kaoor's claim of being Hindu Pathan was not completely inaccurate. Malaiya (talk)

Kapoors are Khatris, but they are also Punjabis. Khatri is a caste, whose members lived in all of North India, before partition, including modern day Pakistan. It is a caste like Dalit, Rajput, Agarwal, Mohyal or Arora. Not a region specific ethnicity. Kapoor family themselves call them Punjabi. They are Hindu Punjabis, originally from the town of Samundri, they are not Pathan. Pathans are Persian people, not Indic or Hindu. BlueGreenYellowRed (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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Wikipedia is not a genealogy

Given that Wikipedia is not a genealogy, I propose inserting the word "Notable" in front of the section heading "Members of the Kapoor family" and removing all entries for members without Wikipedia articles. Largoplazo (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Heavily biased content

There are many lines which are totally inclined to appreciate this family. Seems like such statements and words like "*the only real dynasty in in Indian Industry*, "the patriarch"(for Raj Kapoor), etc. has been included by their affinities. This page urgently needs neutralisation! Gyaansevak (talk) 15:37, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Surinder Kapoor relation

In the case Surinder Kapoor is the paternal cousin of Prithviraj Kapoor, how is he related to Basheshwarnath Kapoor? Jay ^(Talk) 10:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)