Talk:Kardecist spiritism

Replaced most of article with content from Portuguese, archived talk page contents

The previous talk page contents have become outdated now that I replaced most of the article content with content from the Portuguese-language Wikipedia page "Espiritismo", so I have archived them. Thiagovscoelho (talk) 14:43, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Article is an inappropriate defence of Spiritism

This article largely reads like a defence of the spiritist beliefs, which is inappropriate for wiki. Someone needs to clean up the article to make it an objective report on spiritism without prejudice. Article should probably be protected as well, since it is very likely to be edited by believers in spiritism to return to the current state. 2A02:810D:E80:2ED4:480:3B17:C4FC:DDDC (talk) 08:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

The Portuguese Wikipedia article, from which I took content for this one, probably really did suffer many edits from Spiritist editors, since Spiritism is largely a Brazilian phenomenon at the moment. Nevertheless, it had more depth, and better support of sources, than the original article content which was replaced, and I did not find any clearly wrong claims in it. One organization cited in the original article was found not to be notable, so it was removed, and accordingly I have had the equivalent page removed from Portuguese Wikipedia as well, but that was the only specific issue. What in particular do you propose changing here?

There is probably no use protecting the article, since I think that, if the editors who produced the original Portuguese Wikipedia article content had been interested in editing the English Wikipedia article content too, there would not have been such a disparity between the articles before I set out to make them equivalent. The ultimate authors of the current version of this article are, therefore, unlikely to come back to it – and I, as their mere translator, am not a Spiritist and have no interests other than improving the coverage, especially insofar as it relates to Brazil. Thiagovscoelho (talk) 18:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Citations

There are lots of short citations, but no full citations. Someone familiar with the sources should fix this. As it stands, the article is unverifiable. Skyerise (talk) 11:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed at least for verifiability, but still better references should be added in some places. Bafuncius (talk) 15:12, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 28 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a rough consensus that "spiritism" is an ambigous term and there is no primary topic for it. Hence, the dab page will be moved to spiritism. Regarding the article itself, there is no clear consensus about the best title for the article, so a new discussion can be opened to determine that. Some editors suggested a WP:BROADCONCEPT should be created at spiritism, but again there wasn't enough consensus for that, so further discussion is needed. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 11:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

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Kardecist spiritism → ? – This article was moved without discussion on February 23 from a longstanding title of Spiritism, which has now been turned into a dab page. Opening this discussion to clarify whether "Kardecist spiritism" or just "spiritism" is a better title. Also noting that there are 1000+ disambiguation links that were created after the page move and dab page creation. Natg 19 (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @ජපස: who moved the page. Natg 19 (talk) 18:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Religion has been notified of this discussion. Natg 19 (talk) 19:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Undo non-consensual move This should not be a discussion. The page should simply be moved back. A lot of work has been done making sure the links throughout Wikipedia linked to the correct articles. Spiritualism is a proper noun and Spiritualism is not referred to as Spiritism, which itself is a distinct proper noun for a distinct tradition. They are distinct. I've proposed Spiritism for speedy deletion so this page can be restored to its proper place. Skyerise (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: This move appears to have been related to WP:FT/N#Spiritism(permalink) – 2804:F14:80E5:6B01:F09A:24EE:9203:57C6 (talk) 19:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Note, Skyerise redirected Spiritism back to here for now. Natg 19 (talk) 20:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

It would be helpful if someone could point to content here, that is appropriately called "Spiritism", but which is not "Kardecist". In other words, if, hypothetically, we were to have a page focused on Kardecist spiritism, along with a broader-topic page about Spiritism in general, what would belong on the latter page, but be out of scope for the former? (I'm not asking what forms of speech these are, as in proper nouns or whatever.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, we should take note of the fact that "Spiritism+Kardec" yields 117,000 Ghits, the alternate title given on the article "Kardecism" yields 24,700 Ghits, and the current article title "Kerdecist spiritism" yields 3,890 Ghits. Clearly, the movement is called "Spiritism". Skyerise (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

OK, thanks. So I conclude from that, that there isn't really a substantive difference between "Spiritism" and "Kardecist spiritism". Instead, the issue here is WP:COMMONNAME. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. A properly named article was the subject of a drive-by move to add an unnecessary and incorrect disambiguation. Skyerise (talk) 21:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I have to point out that a lot of the claims being made matter-of-factly by @Skyerise: should be prefaced by the word "arguably". Arguably spiritism and spiritualism aren't the same. Arguably spiritism and Kardecist spiritism are one and the same. If one considers what distinguishes the anglophone spiritualism from the francophone (Kardecist) spiritisme, one could also make a distinction from that tradition to the several latin-american espíritas. The French WP has a page for w:fr:spiritisme and another for w:fr:Spiritisme (Allan Kardec), so there is that. The first covers basically every spiritualist belief from ancient times to and including the anglophone tradition (which also has its own page). Espiritismo has become one of the major religions in Brazil, but the Brazilian version, which I like to call "chiquista" (as in, the one by Chico Xavier), is said to be practicing Kardec's teaching, but from the start they mashed in lots of umbanda and other local practices and many of the loyal Kardecists have parted ways with Brazilian Spiritist Federation and denounce Xavier as a fraud. By the way, famous spiritualist names, such as the Fox sisters, William Crookes and others are also part of the canon, so to speak, of Brazilian espíritas.

So there are many reasons to say that they are all arguably off-shoots of the same large thing. VdSV9•♫ 17:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@VdSV9:, i think you are probably making the most informed comments here and hope you keep an eye on the page. I've just been through chapters in Sophie Lachapelle's Investigating the Supernatural and John Warne Monroe's Laboratories of Faith. Have to say that I see the current content of this page as almost useless in describing the Spiritism of Kardec. I don't know if the content (with it's mishmash of parapsychology, biblical interpretation, and spiritual healing) could be said to match your "chiquista". The sources used are such complete rubbish. The content bears very little relation to the philosophy and doctrine of the French Spiritists. I also hope you have some good suggestions on how to proceed, looking at the current article and the "Kardecist spiritism" sidebar i'm depressed at the amount of work that would need done to bring any value to the reader and just want to WP:TNT the lot. fiveby(zero) 14:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Fiveby: You flatter me. I am still officially "away from WP", only coming back now and then to check in on things. So I can't promise that I'll be able to keep much of an eye on anything, but I'll try. I agree with your overall assessment of the page, spiritists always add a lot of cruft to these pages. The whole "In Popular Culture" section to me looks off. Imagine listing every movie that focuses on ghosts or reincarnation. I hope, in the future, to be able to transplant some of the improvements being made here by you guys to the Portuguese page. VdSV9•♫ 04:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Hemiauchenia, Fiveby, VdSV9, and LuckyLouie: previous participants discussing this article on the WP:FT/N page. Natg 19 (talk) 21:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• No strong opinion regarding page title. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group has been notified of this discussion. Natg 19 (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I am not sure how I feel about the current title or the original title of "Spiritism", but we do need a disambiguation page somewhere. The term "spiritism" can seem to me to be a term for this movement or other general movements based on "spirituality" or the "spirit realm", e.g. Espiritismo, Spiritualism (an American movement) or other forms of spiritualism (beliefs). Natg 19 (talk) 22:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
• Spritism is defined in the Catholic Encyclopedia as something different than the Kardecist version which is why I think that it does not make sense to claim that the only form of spritism is the Karecist version. Making it clear that this is the peculiar beliefs of Kardec that are to be discussed needs to be done at the level of the title, in my opinion. I don't care if this is the title or something else which does the same thing, but the move was effected because this was the previous name that the page was under and there was no discussion to move it to spiritism. Thus, I moved it back. jps (talk) 22:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@ජපස: None of that justifies leaving the regular editors of this article out of the loop given that the article has been stable at its title for 17 years! This talk page should have been notified of the discussion elsewhere before any move was made, since all current editors of the article were in consensus about the title. Skyerise (talk) 22:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Since there was no discussion about the move in 2007, there actually was no evident consensus to be had. Editors owe no deference to how long something has been around before being WP:BOLD and effecting change. That's the entire philosophy of the website. jps (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually, they do, as links from other articles get intentionally properly disambiguated by editors interested in history. A unilaterial page move after 17 years of stability falls well within the definition of disruptive editing. Skyerise (talk) 22:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

You already tried that tactic at WP:ANI and it was closed. Now, let's discuss the actual content at issue and dispense with the poor attempts at wikilawyering. jps (talk) 22:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Let's focus on the move discussion, and not on accusations. Jps, above I asked Skyerise whether there are content differences between Spiritism and Kardecist spiritism, and the reply was that there are no substantive differences, and it's just a matter of COMMONNAME. I can see now that this is actually not settled, and is a matter of dispute. Given that the Catholic Encyclopedia source you refer to defines some differences, could you please summarize for me here what those differences are? In other words, as I asked above, if, hypothetically, we were to have a page focused on Kardecist spiritism, along with a broader-topic page about Spiritism in general, what would belong on the latter page, but be out of scope for the former? --Tryptofish (talk) 00:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Along with Catholic Encyclopedia:

• A general term for the belief that the spirits or souls of the dead communicate with the living through a medium or psychically sensitive individual. The term has been used with two quite different meanings in the twentieth century. In conservative Christian circles it is often used as a derogatory term to describe Spiritualism in anticult literature. It is also used as the designation of the followers of the particular Spiritualist teachings of Allan Kardec (1804-1869)...Spiritism and Spiritualism should not be confused, since the adherents of each section were opposed to the tenets of the other...

  — Melton, J. Gordon (ed.). "Spiritism". Encyclopedia of occultism & parapsychology.

• "spiritism". New Oxford American Dictionary (3rd ed.). another term for spiritualism (sense 1)
• "spiritism". Fowler’s Dictionary of Modern English Usage (4th ed.). Coined in the 1850s as an alternative to spiritualism (also first recorded in the 1850s in the sense 'the belief that the spirits of the dead can hold communication with the living'), it has lost ground since and is now far less often used than the longer term. Spiritualism is the usual term for this sense, and also for the philosophical sense 'the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter, or that spirit is the only reality'.
• "spiritism". Oxford Dictionary of English (3rd ed.). another term for spiritualism (sense 1)
• "spiritism". Merriam-Webster. SPIRITUALISM sense 2a

• “Spiritism” is the creation of the French educator Hyppolyte Leon Denizard Rivail (1804–1869), who went under the alias of Allan Kardec for his Spiritist writings. Spiritism incorporates the archaic mediumistic methods of American “Occult Spiritualism” of the Fox sisters but is more Christian than the American. Spiritism also incorporates reincarnation. Spiritism spread from France to Cuba and Brazil, where in some instances it blended with Cuban and Brazilian African traditions.

  — Gonzalez, A. V. "Spiritism". In Leeming, D. A. (ed.). Encyclopedia of Psychology and Religion.

i think Melton best sums up the problem, and a DAB would best serve the reader. fiveby(zero) 03:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Occult has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I have no opinion on the best title but I just wanted to remark that it seems clear Spiritism is the WP:STATUSQUOANTE. So in the event of a no consensus outcome, the bold move should be reverted per WP:BOLDMOVE. The 2007 move has been in place way to long that it can be disputed now except on WP:ENGVAR grounds, but the recent move hasn't been. Nil Einne (talk) 10:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
  • This seems like officious postering to me. The question of WP:ASTONISH does not seem, to me at least, to be satisfied by a return to the "status quo" which was entirely confusing. Even if we "revert" to this page being named "spiritism", there would require some content changes to make sure people who are looking fo any of the definitions listed above by fiveby aren't misled. jps (talk) 14:25, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I agree with jps here, there is a difficult knot for the reader here and i don't think the essay, RM instructions or MOS page you point to help with untangling it, or even support the claims you are making. I don't think we have even explored all the contours of the problem. It appears much of the content has been imported somehow from Brazilian spiritism, yet Melton tells us:

    In contemporary South American Spiritism there is a noticeable tendency to blur formal distinctions between Spiritism and Spiritualism, particularly in Brazil, where all kinds of physical phenomena are manifest, including psychic surgery. The Spiritism of Kardec discouraged such physical mediumship...

    Based on a sampling of the citations I could probably tag bomb the hell out of the article, or remove large swaths of text based on the core policy V or FRINGE. Are we going to go back to the sources and try to fix the problems or just wikilawyer about them? fiveby(zero) 15:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment According Handbook of Contemporary Religions in Brazil, this 2017 chapter by Artur Cesar Isaia, a brazilian expert on subject:

Kardecism is a Brazilian transplant of nineteenth-century French Spiritism. It has developed more explicitly religious dimensions than its French counterpart: for example emphasizing healing and miracles, reflecting mixture with popular, especially Afro-Brazilian, practices; and sanctifying leaders, often precisely because of their reputation as healers.

I aggree with Fiveby. There's a lot of pro FRINGE to clean. Section about table-turning is a good example of this, and Scientific method and "spiritual science" uses parapsychology to legitimate pseudoscientific alegations by kardecists. Medicine section is all about FRINGE too. Ixocactus (talk) 17:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• The only reliable sourced part of the "Scientific method and 'spiritual science'" and "Medicine" sections is pseudoscience of parapsychology, but i've left in Alexander Moreira-Almeida for now. fiveby(zero) 23:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Keep this page at Kardecist spiritism, and make Spiritism a DAB page. (Alternatively, make Spiritism a broad topic summary page, and also have Spiritism (disambiguation).) With thanks to Fiveby for the source analysis, it now seems clear to me that the argument that spiritism is simply the COMMONNAME for Kardecist spiritism is contradicted by the sources, and that the page move to Kardecist spiritism was the correct outcome, although it would have been better to have had this RM discussion before making the move. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Keep this page at Kardecist spiritism, per Fiveby and the above discussion. wound theology◈

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.