Talk:Kensington University

Legitimacy of degrees awarded

The article now states: 'After the California Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (BPPVE) was created in 1989 to regulate higher education institutions in the State, Kensington was required to obtain state approval' which implies that before 1989 it was not operating under any approval, which is misleading because before the BPPVE was created, approval was granted by the California Education Department, (the BPPE, Bureau for private and postsecondary education, clearly confirms that, and I don't realize how a state agency confirmation is of less importance to newspaper articles). And as the kensington failed to comply with the additional requirements, it was eventually closed down. It is very important that this point is clarified, as well as that between 1976 and 1996 degrees earned are valid and legitimate. Even in Hawaii, the Court decision considers degrees earned before July 1, 1999 as valid and legitimate. Moreover, not only John Bear does mention that pre-1996 degrees earned are legal and valid, but State agencies do so as well.

The clarification on the Stare approval before 1989 the school's closure, are extremely important points for graduates that have earned their degrees between 1976 and 1996 in California and before July 1st 1999 in Hawaii. j 379 — Preceding comment added by J379 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Your statements are likely correct, but Wikipedia articles need to reflect what's been published by reliable sources, and your statements aren't [yet] supported by published reliable sources. Wikipedia can't base articles on personal knowledge or "original research".

I do see your point about "state approval", so I've changed changed "state approval" to "Council approval". The sources don't indicate whether or not Kensington had state approval earlier; they only indicate that the institution needed approval from the newly formed Council. I did find a good source about the history of the California Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (now cited in that article) that confirms that regulatory responsibility was previously housed in the Department of Education. However, the source indicates (on page 10 of the PDF) that there was a lack of enforcement provisions, varying standards, and some exemptions from oversight. The source doesn't mention Kensington nor indicate what requirements would have applied to institutions like Kensington. Thus, it doesn't provide any basis for making a statement about Kensington's pre-1990 approval status.

Do you know of a place where BPPE has published the statements you are referring to? With regard to John Bear, can you quote exactly what the book says? --Orlady (talk) 16:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• The October 2003 Hawaii court order required Kensington to offer repayment of tuition to all students who had been enrolled after July 1, 1999, after which date the institution was found to be operating illegally. The order doesn't indicate what its legal status was prior to that date.
• In this online forum post, John Bear states that Kensington had state approval for some unspecified period of time, that its law graduates were eligible for the state bar exam, and that the school had "a fairly decent record" on the bar exam. Online forums are not reliable sources, but it possibly might be acceptable for an article to describe John Bear's comments on an online forum. One of the LA Times stories implies, but does not state explicitly, that Kensington law grads were eligible to take the bar exam. --Orlady (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

As I have already stated I process not one but 3 confirmations from the BPPE Please advise me how I can post them and where, provided I cover my name, as they are addressed to me. Alternatively you can ask the BPPE and I am certain they will send you the confirmation. As for John Bear can you please add the quote, even if the period of approval is not explicitly mentioned, which obviously is implied to be covering the period 1976 to 1996, which coincides with BPPEs statement, of which John Bear is certainly aware; don't forget he is one of the few experts on distance learning. In other words it is important, for the reasons earlier stated, to make it clear that up to 1996 there was approval and degrees earned were legitimate and valid. As for Hawaii I am certain it is mentioned in the Court decision and it is implied, otherwise compensation wouldn't cover only post July 1st, 1999 graduates. Please dear Orlady do your best to reflect a bit more positive picture in the article, because honestly its more close to the truth. Unfortunately in these cases such topics attract more gossip and negative comments than the reality deserves and victimise people who have indeed worked for their degrees. Additionally you are right about the law grads, I have even recently received an email form John Bear himself, who explicitly states it. J379 — Preceding unsigned comment added by J379 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

To repeat what I've said before (on your talk page or mine, if not also on this page):

To be reported in a Wikipedia article, the information must have been published by a reliable source. A message to you from the BPPE, with or without your name on it, is not published content. Wikipedia cannot be a publisher of original research.

Please don't try to make Wikipedia into an investigative organization. If you want an investigative reporter to uncover the history of Kensington University, I suggest that you find an investigative reporter associated with a recognized news organization (for example, a newspaper or TV station), give them your information, and ask them to write and have it published. Once published, the information could be cited in Wikipedia, but not until then.

Meanwhile, I suggest that you read up on Wikipedia's policies at WP:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not -- and please start signing your talk page posts with four tildes (~~~~), like SineBot has asked you to do. --Orlady (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

One more thing: My statement about the Hawaii court order was not speculation on my part. It was based on reading the court order. You can read it, too, at this link. It indicates that the institution was illegal after July 1, 1999. It doesn't say what its status was before that time. --Orlady (talk) 21:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I apologise for not having comprehended fully, yet, the Wikipedia rules. As you can appreciate I am honestly trying. On the subject: is it al all possible to at least add on the article that Kensington was approved to offer bachelor, master and doctoral degrees, by the Califormia Education Department between 1976 and 1996 and that degrees earned then, are legitimate and valid? Or to do that you need to see it publiahed? Thanks J379 (talk) 09:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but Wikipedia can only say that if it's in a reliable published source. --Orlady (talk) 14:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Further to my last entry, please see the following link http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/freenunreal/Degree.txt In which the Kensington university is mentioned as offering Bachelor Master and Doctoral degrees. And the link is publicly available, and if you can use it please link it to the article, mentioning that it was offering these levels of degrees. And it is not listed in the diploma mills section. Thanks J379 (talk) 10:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but Angelfire websites aren't reliable sources according to the criteria at WP:RS. However, I think some of this information might be in the LA Times articles. --Orlady (talk) 14:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I have found at least 3 official and published reports of the California postsecondary education commission, of the California education department, that was the predecessor of BPPE, that list Kensington as an approved/authorised institution. See http://www.cpec.ca.gov/CompleteReports/1982Reports/82-12.pdf The other two reports are in 1983 and in 1987, one has to only change the date in the URL to read them. So I do hope this information can be added to the article on Kensington. Shall I do it? J379 (talk) 17:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Good find! What I get from that 1982 report (Directory of California Universities and Colleges, March 1982, issued by California Postsecondary Education Commission) is that Kensington was a nonaccredited institution legally authorized to grant degrees in California under provisions of Section 94310(c) of the state's Education Code. The report says that this authorization required an institution to have at least $50,000 of "assets devoted to education". It also indicates that institutions with this form of authorization were "prohibited from claiming that the State has made any evaluation, recognition, accreditation, approval, or endorsement of their course of study or degrees". (I found different report topics when I tried to access the same report number in 1983 and 1987.) Is that consistent with the information that you think should be added to the article? --Orlady (talk) 16:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you please add, next to where it says that it was not accredited, that it was authorised by the California education department to offer bachelor, master and doctoral degrees and hyperlink it to the 1987 report? http://www.cpec.ca.gov/CompleteReports/1987Reports/87-30.pdf. Please don't write anything else. Thanks J379 (talk) 17:37, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

On second thought and because I am expecting some additional published information I suggest we don't change anything yet. Nevertheless, if you read the article as it is now, you will agree with me that it is mainly based on certain specific articles, actually of one LA Times reporter, and gives a very negative picture, victimising all graduates who have worked to earn their degree, which was valid and legitimate. And the validity and legitimacy of the degrees, is nowhere mentioned. Additionally you will agree with me that expressions such as 'no fat, no bull' as well as others, in the article are intentionally stressed, because on such issues, these are the kind of expressions that people love to hear plus to victimise public persons who happened to earn their degrees there. In any case, I am working on the matter, and do hope soon to be able to provide some additional information. Thanks. J379 (talk) 04:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if you can agree to edit parts of the present article as follows: Kensington University was an unaccredited, distance education institution, authorized by the California Education Department, that used to be the licensing agent,(and you can hypelink this to the 1987 report) that was based at different times in Hawaii and California. It was shut down by state authorities in both Hawaii and California, when it failed to comply with additional licensing requirements. The Hawaii branch was started in 1996.[3]... the 1990 date is wrong. After the California Council for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education was created in 1989to regulate higher education institutions in the state, Kensington was required to obtain Council approval. In 1994, the Council's first review of the institution found deficiencies. Following a protracted legal battle, Kensington University was ordered shut down by California authorities in 1996. No new degrees could be awarded, but prior degrees from the school would remain valid....This is mentioned by Chandler: [2] (Chandler, January 4, 1996) Also is it possible to delete the Talk page, or does it have to permanently be viewable? J379 (talk) 05:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't have time to delve into your full request at the moment, but I can answer the last item: Talk pages normally are kept as a record of discussions related to content development. --Orlady (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand you are busy, yet I am planning to edit the article, very slightly, and then you can interfere if anything is not right. Is it OK? Any changes I do will be referenced. J379 (talk) 13:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the details you want to add to the article belong under "History". Please don't add them to the lead section. Per WP:Lead section, the lead should summarize the body of the article. The current lead is pretty short, but everything about it is supported by the rest of the article.

I see where the January 1996 LA Times article supports that statement that earlier degrees would still be valid. I'm glad you found that. --Orlady (talk) 14:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Kim Il Sung or Kim Jung Il received an honorary degree?

I know that there is no way of having proof of who got the degree since you arent allowed to bring in cameras, but I went there and recall it being awarded to Kim Jung Il. This source also mentions it was Kim Jung Il. Yoni508 (talk) 02:37, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

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