Talk:Killing of Manuel Ellis

Image

If anyone has time before me, this gofundme image of Manuel Ellis has been reused dozens of times in media around the US [1] and should be used to illustrate the article. -Darouet (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination

Did you know ...

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that Manuel Ellis can be heard in a recording through the Tacoma, Washington, police dispatch radio on March 3, 2020, shouting "I can't breathe!" before his death?
  • ALT1: ... that while Manuel Ellis was being beaten by four police officers in Tacoma, Washington, on March 3, 2020, a bystander shouted "Stop. Oh my God, stop hitting him. Just arrest him," and Ellis shouted "I can't breathe!" before dying?

Created by Darouet (talk). Nominated by BarrelProof (talk) at 21:58, 12 June 2020 (UTC).

Thank you BarrelProof for nominating. I might suggest one more alternative:

• ALT2 ... that Manuel Ellis is one of a number of black Americans who shouted "I can't breathe" before being killed by police?

Best, -Darouet (talk) 21:10, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps ALT3: "... that Manuel Ellis is one of at least seven black Americans since 2014 who shouted ..." (italics used to show changes – the number seven and the span of time are according to the I can't breathe article – this includes Eric Garner, Anton Black, Javier Ambler, Derrick Scott, Manuel Ellis, George Floyd, and a 17-year-old boy in Philadelphia). —BarrelProof (talk) 21:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to review this, but I think the choice of hook angle is pretty inflammatory. Yoninah (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks @Yoninah:. What about Alt2? I thought that was a bit more restrained. Do you have another suggestion for a hook? -Darouet (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Darouet: first of all, you must realize that this is a very volatile issue and must be handled in a completely neutral manner. As much as all the "evidence" points to police abuse, there is also the possibility that the police were acting correctly and that the video evidence is flawed. There has been no trial or conviction, which would normally allow us to peg guilty parties. As you will see, I added the words "allegedly" and "claimed" to a few statements.
• I also feel that your "Investigation" section does not include all the information in your sources. It was not a simple matter of passing the buck from the police department to the mayor to the governor; a lot of heated emotions were involved.
• Since the medical examiner's office has called it a homicide, I think you can safely write the hook with the bolded link killing of Manuel Ellis, and perhaps focus on an additional angle. Such as:
• ALT4: ... that the Tacoma Police Union objected to calls for the prosecution of officers involved in the killing of Manuel Ellis, claiming that the video evidence was flawed? Yoninah (talk) 20:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Yoninah: I agree with you that these events are highly charged, and that people think of and describe them emotionally. I think we need to avoid that here. But I still don't see what your objection to ALT2 is. There's no debate about whether Ellis or others called out "I can breathe" before dying in cases that were ruled homicides. ALT2 doesn't say that the police murdered Ellis, doesn't argue he wasn't high (I don't know if he was or wasn't), and doesn't support or challenge verbal testimony from the police, or from the eyewitness in the car who observed the scene. Instead, ALT2 references the video footage, which even if flawed (e.g. it doesn't show the onset of the conflict), contains portions that are not contested (e.g. the hook, that Ellis shouted "I can't breathe." I fear that your ALT4 is emotionally charged, just like ALT1, and ALT3. -Darouet (talk) 17:12, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Darouet: How can you say that the ALT2 hook wording, "before being killed by police", doesn't say that the police murdered Ellis? Yoninah (talk) 17:14, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Upon reviewing the hook options, I'm also open to ALT0. It's just that ALT1, ALT2 and ALT3 are way too accusatory. Yoninah (talk) 17:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Because someone being killed (which according to the OED means that one person causes the death of another, by whatever means or intention), is not the same as being murdered, which means unlawful killing. However, it seems that many people don't recognize this distinction. Your suggestion of ALT0 seems fine. -Darouet (talk) 18:49, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• OK, let's do it. Here is a full review: New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. One image is fair use, the other freely-licensed. ALT0 hook ref verified and cited inline. I unlinked the city because it was making a sea of blue; readers can click on the article if they want to know where it happened. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits. ALT0 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 19:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks: I'm impressed that you handled this discussion and consideration in such a neutral manner, when you could easily have taken an ideological or combative approach. Check one more on the side of editors doing great work at Wikipedia :) -Darouet (talk) 21:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• That's very nice of you to say, Darouet. But I think I was taking the lead from you! Best, Yoninah (talk) 22:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• This is great to see. Thanks very much. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:19, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
• Article should be renamed "Death of Manuel Ellis" as the officers have now been exonerated of any wrongdoing.

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!--Please do not write below this line or remove this line. Place comments above this line.--> Agree that this article —should not– be titled "Killing of Manuel Ellis", but rather "Death of Manuel Ellis" now that officers have been exonerated and have returned to duty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:5B00:D301:3550:D07E:A95A:78F6 (talk) 17:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Four Million Dollars

The County has settled with the Ellis family for $4,000,000.

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article259669035.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.123.21 (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Tacoma Police and Body Cameras

Hello all! I saw that in the 'Lead up to arrest' section it states that "The arresting officers were not wearing body cameras because the Tacoma Police Department does not use them." It could be changed to "...did not use them at the time." because this event actually help push for body cameras to be worn by Tacoma police officers. Not sure how you would want to cite that. I did find this article: https://komonews.com/news/local/nearly-all-of-tacoma-police-officers-to-use-body-worn-cameras-by-end-of-month. It states that nearly all of police will have body cameras "by the end of the month" in February 2021, so I don't know if is the best source in this case. Just thought I would throw this out there! BTayOkay (talk) 23:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)