Talk:Killing of Mustafa Tamimi

Notability

Non-notable individual who died, apparently as a result of tear gas or a tear gas canister fired to quell a violent demonstration in which he was participating. Brief news-cycle thing, no demonstration of IMPACT or ONGOING coverage.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The individual may be non-notable (the article does not make such a claim), but his death meets WP:NEVENT, per sources already in the article. I suggest the tag be removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps I was not clear. The individual was non-notable before his death. The death itself occurred as the individual took place in a violent, but not notable political protest. The incident appears to non-notable because coverage was limited to a brief flurry of coverage, and a follow-up article relating that the soldier who fired the tear gas canister was not criminally liable. No coverage showing IMPACT or ONGOING coverage. This looks like a WP:POVFORK of Nabi Salih#Weekly protests, where this death is appropriately covered.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

According to what criterion the template was removed per WP:WTRMT?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrike (talk • contribs)

I disagree. This death passes NEVENT / GNG - mainly to the coverage of much more prominent family members that bring Mustafa up as a martyred relative - however this has generated LASTing and rather wide coverage. The more relevant question is one of a merge if there is a suitable target.I don't see how this won't survive an AfD (though merge might be a possible outcome there - redirect or delete are off the table) - the appropriate discussion type would be a merge proposal if this is a suitable target.Icewhiz (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I tagged the page for notability because sources seem inadequate. Revisiting after the tag was removed, I could see that it is a WP:CONTENTFORK of Nabi Salih#Weekly protests, where it should be merged.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory: How about Killing of Esther Ohana? --Mhhossein ^talk 14:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Merger attempt is really questionable to me given the similar article created by EMG himself. Apparently, there's a misunderstanding regarding WP:CONTENTFORK: "A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles (or passages within articles) all treating the same subject." Are we really talking about the same subject? --Mhhossein ^talk 14:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Non-violent demonstration

Icewhiz: This source says that he was killed in a non-violent demonstration. I have no idea why you removed the sourced content based on your own interpretation? --Mhhossein ^talk 14:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

That's a PRIMARY report - and may perhaps be seen as the political position of the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office, but nothing else. There are other positions - e.g. [1] - Testifying before military police investigators, the soldier who fired the grenade said he did not see Tamimi when he pulled the trigger. He stated that he fired in response to a massive barrage of rocks being thrown at the vehicle he was in, and that he did not see anybody in his line of fire. This account was adopted by others in the IDF Central Command, and was backed up by Military Advocate for Operational Matters Lt. Col. Ronen Hirsch's Thursday announcement.. According to B'Tselem (you can see a video of photographs here, including of him) - he was shot "as he threw stones at a military jeep". Per the Independent (an actual RS) - Clashes at Palestinian protester's funeral - "Mustafa Tamimi was shot in the head on Friday as he threw stones at an armoured jeep during a regular weekly protest by residents of the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh". So - non-violent is not quite borne out by actual sources here.Icewhiz (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Ahed Tamimi in See also

Mustafa is Ahed Tamimi's cousin and both are/were activists, hence they're relevant to each other, the requirement mentioned in MOS:SEEALSO. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Ahlam Tamimi is also a cousin, and was also active in Palestinian activities against Israel, if we mention Ahed then we should mention Ahlam as well.Icewhiz (talk) 15:20, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree Ahlam Tamimi is known activist for Palestinian cause and should be included too.--Shrike (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

no....Ahlam Tamimi didn't even live in the village. There is nothing which link her to Mustafa Tamimi: this is just a new low smear tactic, towards a dead man, Huldra (talk) 20:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Umm no. Per the NYT Ahlam is from Nabi Saleh and is much loved there, despite jer conviction and subsequent exile in Jordan.[2]Icewhiz (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Her family comes from there...she doesnt live there (and there is no info that she ever did), And NYT is about as reliable on Nabi Saleh affairs as Aruz Sheva (Btw, who said they loved her? Mustafa?) Huldra (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

The NYT piece I cited above says she's from there.[3] She was involving in the bombing while she was a student in nearby Birzeit - following which she spent time in an Israeli jail and then (following a prisoner exchange deal) in exile in Jordan. However, the NYT piece makes abundantly clear that she's from the village and mentions both Mustafa and Ahlam - clearly showing they are discussed as a set.Icewhiz (talk) 06:42, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

RFC See also

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Neither Several editors voted both or neither - I count 4 votes either solely for neither or expressing a preference for neither as a first choice, 2 for both, and one editor who did not express a preference between both or neither. One of the editors who voted both also stated he would accept neither as a second choice. Two editors votes to include only Ahed Tamimi Neither would resolve editors stated concerns about NPOV and has the most support at this time and several editors made particularly strong arguments that this content was not appropriate/detrimental for the See Also section. Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

---

What should appear in See Also section

• Ahed Tamimi
• Ahlam Tamimi
• Both
• Neither

--Shrike (talk) 08:56, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

• Both or Neither Neither(First choice) or Both(Second Choice) the WP:RS discuss them together for example [4],[5] so mention only one is clear POV violation.--Shrike (talk) 08:56, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Shrike: You'd better strike your older comment when you change it into a new one. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

• Both + add Bassem Tamimi (or as a 2nd option - Neither). All three are cousins, both are mentioned in conjunction to Mustafa in RSes - what good for the goose is good for the gander. I support both over neither, as this individual is not notable and the incident itself (a stone thrower getting hit by a gas canister) would've been in all likelihood non-notable. Most of the coverage of this cases stems from on-going coverage of Nabi Saleh and the notable Tamimis - hence, the notable members of the Tamimi clan are quite relevant here, and they definitely include all three (Ahed, Ahlam, and Bassem) - who are often mentioned alongside Mustafa's death.Icewhiz (talk) 09:04, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
• Both or Neither They come from the same town and from the same family. Showing only one of them is clear cherry-picking and POV.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 17:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
• Only Ahed Tamimi, who is a cousin, or none. Though Ahlam Tamimis familily came from her, she doesnt live here. Lets say it as it is: you only want Ahlam Tamimi name here to tarnish the name of Mustafa Tamimi....Huldra (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
• Only Ahed Tamimi, who the source says is a cousin of Mustafa and lives in Nabi Saleh, where Mustafa lived and died. --Mhhossein ^talk 04:59, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
• Both or neither symmetrical treatment for things that would be favored by different POVs is how you observe NPOV. Tragic that we have to have an RfC for a See also section. Preference for neither and having no See Also section at all -- it was detracting, not adding, to our encyclopedia. ---- Calthinus (talk) 14:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
• Both Ahed Tamimi and Ahlam Tamimi are verified family members of Mustafa. People may also mix them up, so having those links helps clarify that. In general, a section addressing 'Notable family members' would be useful.Shushugah (talk) 15:24, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
• Neither If these people are related (either by blood or connection), then text is the proper way to make that connection, and 'cousin' has a much looser definition in some societies than in the West - is that the case here? Without such textual exposition, the connection seems wholly spurious and borderline WP:OR, three notable Palestinians with the same surname? So what? Pincrete (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

  They all hail from the same small 600 person village - it is not just a random common surname. Media commonly reports they are cousins.Icewhiz (talk) 02:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• Neither: if these family members are relevant to the subject's life, then they should appear in the text of the article. Semi-random names in "See also" are not helpful to the readers. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:36, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
• Tamimi family seems like the obvious choice, an article for which ample sourcing exists: the clan is often discussed as a unit, both by supporters and detractors, and a Knesset subcommittee once held an investigation into whether they were a real family. It would best serve our readers to provide as much reliable information as possible, conveniently organized, on the family to which Mustafa belonged and its political activities.

If reliable sources provide particular reasons to connect any two members of the family, these should of course be explained in the text of the relevant articles. FourViolas (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Needs to be reviewed

@Pincrete, Huldra, and Zero0000: Can anyone review these edits please [6], [7] and [8]? --Mhhossein ^talk 18:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Your canvassing of involved editors sharing your POV is not acceptable.Shrike (talk) 18:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I only came for the RfC and don't know why I'm deemed qualified to review these edits - if you can't get agreement here, raise an RfC or some sort of dispute procedure. With my limited knowledge of the topic, some of these edits seem good, some less so, but as I said I only came for the RfC so it wasn't appropriate to ping me. Pincrete (talk) 19:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Shot or struck?

Sources such as The Guardian, BBC, Aljazeera, Washington Post are using "Shot", so I'm reverting the unnecessary changes done recently. --Mhhossein ^talk 14:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Washington post and BBC and reuters[9] use struck also.There is some sources that use hit[10],[11].I propose to change it to hit as compromise--Shrike (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Washington post uses "shot" in the title, as I told you. I would remove the Israeli sources from the list. --Mhhossein ^talk 15:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Many sources are using struck or hit as in English, and particularly American English, shot implies gun shot - which is not the case here. The gas canister is a fairly low speed projecticle. I Support either struck or hit.Icewhiz (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

And it use struck also.Why we should remove Israeli independent sources and leave Qatari state media? Shrike (talk) 15:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not surprised by your edit warring. You should provide sources for your claim, as I already did. That "the gas canister is a fairly low speed projecticle" has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion since we don't act based on your original research, rather we should note what the sources say. Your edit summary, "He was not shot with a bullet, he was struck by a gas canister," likewise shows you are acting based on your own original research. --Mhhossein ^talk 15:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

NPA please. You had editors cinfused by this at the dyk as well. NYT does not use shot,[12] and plenty of other sources avoid this as well.Icewhiz (talk) 15:24, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

There isnt a personal attack anywhere in that. Criticizing your edits is not a "personal attack". nableezy - 15:40, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Don't get offended, that was a real edit warring! I suggest you show us those "plenty of other sources". --Mhhossein ^talk 05:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

I reverted once, as did you.Icewhiz (talk) 05:34, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

No, you reverted without having actively participated in the discussion. Also, you based your revert on your own Original Researches and refused to show sources supporting struck. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:37, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

I posted in this discussion prior to reverting the edit with somewhat unclear edit summary of "unnecessary changes was reverted, See the talk page for the reasoning behind it". I also provided a spurce - NYT. I suggest you strike your assertions above.Icewhiz (talk) 05:43, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

That's what the edit summary box is meant for. I had commented on the talk page so "See the talk page for the reasoning behind it" is crystal clear. I came up with four reliable sources, what you fail to do. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Statistics

I checked the sources and made the following table:

Source	Shot	Hit	Struck
The Guardian	Y	Y	N
Al-Jazeera	Y	Y	N
BBC	Y	Y	Y
Washington Post	Y (used in title)	Y	Y
Pri	N	Y	N
Haaretz	Y	Y	N
Ny Times	N	N	Y
CNN	N	Y (used in title)	N
Telegraph	N	Y	N
Times of Israel	Y	Y	N
The Jeursalem Post	Y (used in title)	N	N
Ynetnews	N	Y	N

While "hit" seems a good candidate, "shot" is used in the title by 2 sources. I don't think "struck" can stay. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:20, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

according to "pro-Palestinian activists" or "witnesses"

I really dont see why that is needed at all. You can watch it frame by frame. He was clearly running after the vehicle throwing stones. Why is this an issue? nableezy - 21:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Page title

@Nableezy: Do you think we can move the page to something like 'Shooting of Mustafa Tamimi'? --Mhhossein ^talk 12:33, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

You may see this page. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Please start move discussion if you want any change Shrike (talk) 13:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but I was merely seeking their opinion before anything else. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

---

Death of Mustafa Tamimi → Shooting of Mustafa Tamimi – According to the sources provided back in 2018, he was described as shot in face. The current title does not imply he was killed by shooting. Mhhossein ^talk 12:03, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose This WP:NPOV title as shooting is not explain the whole incident. Most of the sources also say that he threw stones toward the vehicle.So it was not merely shooting. --Shrike (talk) 12:09, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is guideline saying the title should describe the details. What gives notability to all these events is that Mustafa Tamimi was killed by shooting. We are not here because of the stone throwing. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment After examining the sources in the table it seems most of them use "death" or "dies" in their title so should we --Shrike (talk) 12:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - compare with Death of Muammar Gaddafi or Death of JonBenét Ramsey. Inf-in MD (talk) 13:44, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, but only because it should be Killing of Mustafa Tamimi per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). We have an established naming convention for these types of articles, and Mustafa Tamimi was killed by Israeli forces shooting a tear gas canister. Our naming conventions on this is clear, and "Death of" is not a suitable title, despite the bald assertions above. nableezy - 18:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths): "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community." Inf-in MD (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Very familiar tactic in quoting just one part of a page from past NoCal100 socks. But what the sentence prior to that says is This is an explanatory supplement to the Wikipedia:Article titles policy and the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) guideline. An explanatory supplement to a policy and a guideline. As well as being the result of a widely attended RFC. And it reflects the common practice across a huge range of articles. Try harder. nableezy - 19:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

It's an explanation of a policy, but apparently not one vetted by the community. There are very many articles that do not follow this practice, I've called out a couple, above, and can easily produce dozens more. Inf-in MD (talk) 19:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

And I can produce dozens more, many of them moved on the basis of that explanatory supplement. You dont even attempt to address what that supplement calls for, that is a consistent way of naming things so we dont have the issues of systemic bias that has white people "killed" and brown people to suffer "deaths". nableezy - 19:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Of course. And the fact that there are dozens of articles that follow this convention and dozens which don't, show that it is not "an established naming convention for these types of articles". Perhaps we should have such an established convention, as the explanatory note requests - there's probably some process for doing that, but it is not now an established convention. And if you think playing the race card is going to work here, I suggest you take another look at the examples I called out, or at Death of Jeffrey L. Smith or Death of Howard Liebengood Inf-in MD (talk) 19:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah thats why its called "Naming conventions (violence and deaths)". And both your examples are suicides, not homicides. nableezy - 19:32, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

You didn't actually read what you linked, did you? It discusses suicides. and JonBenét Ramsey was a homicide of white person Inf-in MD (talk) 19:38, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I did read it lol, I was saying the two you just linked are not analogous. Jon Benet has not been discussed for a rename ever, much less since this supplement was created. Same for Gaddafi. Until now actually. Im on pins and needles to see if the wider community agrees with your assertion that this widely used supplement means nothing at all. See for example the following move requests: Talk:Killing_of_Eric_Garner/Archive_2#Requested_move_2_June_2020, Talk:Murder_of_George_Floyd/Archive_1#Requested_move_27_May_2020 (pre-conviction move to murder), Talk:Killing_of_Philando_Castile#Requested move 27 April 2021, Talk:Killing_of_Alvin_Cole#Requested_move_27_October_2020. nableezy - 19:42, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

You tried to pull the race card to insinuate that only 'brown people to suffer "deaths"' - I showed you two examples in which the supposed "convention" is not followed, and the suicides of two white people are called "Deaths of...". I didn't say the note means "nothing at all", clearly some people follow it, But your assertion that this is 'an established naming convention for these types of articles' is wrong. Inf-in MD (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Im sorry what? Played the race card lol? Yes, there are white people who have death as the article title. I dont think anybody can take you seriously if you want to pretend there isnt systemic bias in how black and brown lives are treated in language and if you pretend that isnt true then youre just being silly. And the RFC result was While is not the level of support that is necessary to create a guideline (officially a no consensus outcome), there is enough of a consensus to create an explanatory supplement to the Article title policy using the revised flow chart as a basis. Would appear that this is a basis to be used, as consensus. Huh. nableezy - 20:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Killing https://books.google.com/books?id=1oXZDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA280 "·For the two protestors killed - Mustafa Tamimi in 2011..." https://books.google.com/books?id=zZYqEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT239 " Activist Mustafa Tamimi was killed by the Israeli authorities..." https://books.google.com/books?id=FlNwuk3ZLMkC&pg=PA267 "Mustafa Tamimi was killed on 9 December..." Selfstudier (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I am OK with Killing of per Nableezy and Selfstudier. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
• He didn't die of the virus, he was killed. Zero^talk 07:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  Killing It's right there in the first sentence: 'was fatally hit', i.e.: killed. It wasn't a heart attack. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:54, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose and also oppose "Killing of": The current name is fine. Hitting someone with a tear gas canister is not ordinarily called "shooting", and the so-called explanatory supplement doesn't really have consensus support and isn't a Wikipedia guideline or policy. "Shooting" generally means hitting with bullets or shotgun pellets. "Death of" does not imply natural causes, despite the presentation of that red herring. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

That is a false presentation of the explanatory supplement. It very much does have consensus, as you can see from the close of the RFC. And yes, death does imply natural causes, which is why WP:DEATHS has "death of" as appropriate when the death is the result of natural causes or an accidental death. As far as the wholly unsupported claim that hitting someone with a tear gas canister is not ordinarily called "shooting", somebody should really tell the Washington Post, Haaretz, BBC, the Times of Israel, The Guardian and Al Jazeera that Tamimi wasn't actually shot. He was merely hit with a tear gas canister. nableezy - 19:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The RFC in question was concluded with "not the level of support that is necessary to create a guideline" and was "officially a no consensus outcome". The header of WP:DEATHS says "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community." I have no objection to a characterization of "shot with a tear gas canister", but if you use the word "shooting" in the title, without "tear gas canister", I think it implies bullets. I did not find anywhere in the Haaretz article that refers to Mustafa Tamimi's death as a shooting. Maybe I missed it, but the shooting primarily described in that article is of a different person (Mohammed Tamimi, not Mustafa Tamimi). I couldn't access the Washington Post article, but I can see from the URL that its headline includes the phrase "shot with tear gas canister", not just "shot" or "shooting" by itself. The BBC article has one place with "was shot", but the two other places in which it describes what happened include a very clear mention that the projectile was a tear gas canister. The Times of Israel article, Al Jazeera article and Guardian article all seem very clear about the type of projectile. None of those articles use "shooting" in the title, without mentioning a tear gas canister. There is a reversal of logical flow between the idea that natural causes would typically be described as "death of" and the idea that "death of" would imply natural causes. Death by natural causes is obviously a subset of a broader category, which is simply death in general. JonBenét Ramsey did not die of natural causes, but Death of JonBenét Ramsey is perfectly fine. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 07:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

It also concluded that there is enough of a consensus to create an explanatory supplement to the Article title policy using the revised flow chart as a basis. Jon Benet has already been brought up, and it has not been the subject of a move request ever. If one were attempted I would expect it to be moved to killing of. Haaretz says he was shot, but I did have the wrong link (here). You know, the result of a shooting. nableezy - 15:55, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I can't see most of the additional Haaretz article due to paywalling, but I can see that its headline does not use "shot" and its opening summary uses "shot in the face with a gas canister" (not just "shot" without mentioning a tear gas canister). The headline uses "smoking gun", but that's obviously a teaser that begs for clarification in the body. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:11, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

The smoking gun it was referring to is the video of Tamimi being shot in the face and the video in the other case it discusses. I dont disagree that shot without the tear gas canister part is complete, but he very much was shot, not "hit". Regardless, I support killing, not "shooting" without clarification, and the only reason offered to oppose that is that the explanatory supplement is not a guideline or policy. There isnt any actual reason to oppose it mind you, just a little bit of this and a little bit of that. nableezy - 19:33, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't disagree with most of that. The problem that I see with "Killing of X" as a general title format is that I believe it implies a premeditated and intentional act. Some others seem to disagree with that interpretation. While some dictionaries include intent in the definition of "killing", others do not. Note that there is a difference between "killing of X" and "X was killed", and I think that difference is important. "X was killed" does not imply intent. I think there is also a difference that depends on the context of the phrasing. I think that an article title of "Killing of X" implies intent, but a sentence saying "the building collapsed, resulting in the killing of X" does not, even though both of those use the same string of words, "killing of X". I personally feel that it is important for Wikipedia to consider the connotations of the phrasing of its article titles and to be conservative about how its titles may be interpreted by readers. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Premeditated and intentional would be determined by a court according to Wikipedia, and would result in "murder of". Killing of implies it was due to another person. And regardless of whether you think the soldier who shot Tamimi saw him, aimed at him, tried to hit him in the face, or was just blindly shooting in the direction, he certainly was the cause of Tamimi's death, and that makes it a killing. Killing implies a homicide, not an intentional one. nableezy - 15:10, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining your interpretation, which differs from the definition of "killing" found in several dictionaries, such as the Collins Dictionary, which says "A killing is an act of deliberately killing a person", and the Oxford Dictionary, which says the word especially refers to deliberate acts. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:28, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for using a dictionary that says that killing is the act of intentionally killing someone. Lol. If you cant find why using this definition is asinine, well then thats not something I feel like I can help you with. nableezy - 16:17, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

That is the definition provided for the (countable) noun. It uses the verb in the definition. There is no inherent problem in doing that. There is a separate entry for the verb in that dictionary. The proposed usage in the article title is the noun usage. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

So what pray tell would the act of non-deliberately killing be known as? One more time, and this has consensus enough to be an explanatory supplement to our article title policy, death implies natural causes or an accident, while killing is the preferred form for when a death is the result of another person's actions. As was the case here. Dont intent to argue the point further, just note that there still is not any actual basis that has not already been rejected by a consensus of editors on Wikipedia. nableezy - 16:37, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

"Death of" does not imply natural causes or an accident. Saying it does not make it so. "Death of" simply applies to any manner of dying. I am not aware of any dictionary or Wikipedia guideline that says that "death" implies a lack of violence. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion at this RFC found otherwise, and developed a way to create a name for articles without a recognizable common name that avoids issues of systemic bias or editors own personal biases. And that method has us using "death of" for natural causes or accidents, and "killing of" for homicides without a criminal conviction. As occurred here. If you would like to argue that your personal preferences and biases should be substituted in the place of that consensus then sure, cool. nableezy - 22:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

That's really not accurate. I have cited major dictionaries, not "personal preferences and biases". And that RFC had a no consensus result, and the flowchart in the non-guideline supplement that "has not been thoroughly vetted by the community" has arrows that flow into a box labelled "Death", suggesting to use such a title under certain circumstances when a topic does not have an apparent common name. It does not have any arrows that flow out of that box to indicate that a title that uses "Death" implies anything in particular other than death. A basic principle of logic is that the idea that "A implies B" does not mean that "B implies A". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

• General support but in the form of "Killing of...". Tamimi died by the hand of another, and these are handled on Wiki is "Killing of...". --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support moving article to Killing of Mustafa Tamimi: "Shooting of.." does not imply that he died of the shooting, and "Death of.." does not imply that he didn't die of old age, Huldra (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed Huldra. I should have considered this before starting the move discussion. "Shooting of..." is not a representative title. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:34, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually "Shooting of" is a very common title form on Wikipedia. Before a recent change of mood here about a year ago, it was the most typical form for articles about deaths by shooting. I'm not sure today whether it is still the most typical title form or not. See, for example, Shooting of Michael Brown, Shooting of Oscar Grant, Shooting of David Dorn, Shooting of Anthony Lamar Smith, and various Category:African Americans shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. There are lots of them – perhaps hundreds. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:29, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

That "change in mood" is more commonly referred to as a shift in consensus on how articles about shooting deaths should be titled. nableezy - 14:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

For the people arguing about Death of Muammar Ghaddafi, please see Talk:Killing_of_Muammar_Gaddafi#Requested_move_18_September_2021. nableezy - 20:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.