Talk:Killing of journalists in the Israel–Hamas war

Israeli journalists

All Israeli journalists listed in this article were killed indiscriminately and not because they were journalists; is it appropriate to place both in equal phrasing in the article? Makeandtoss (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Some of the Palestinian journalists were killed indiscriminately too - 10 were killed while confirmed to be reporting. There is also no current firm word on what the Israeli journalists were doing at the time of the attack. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

However, we do have content that IDF targeted Palestinian journalists. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

The page reflects the running count by the CPJ, and all that it includes. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate information

@Iskandar323

"Salam Khalil, the head of the Gaza Journalists Syndicate's Committee of Women Journalists, was also killed in an Israeli strike on the same day." is incorrect and should be deleted. Khalil is not dead as per the article entitled "Journalists Hold Funeral Procession for Their Colleagues Killed in Attacks on Gaza" at DemocracyNow.org. 96.246.238.31 (talk) 18:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

That's amended. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Another victim of Israel bombing

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/scores-killed-including-journalists-israel-pounds-gaza-strip

Plus Al-Mayadeen correspondent, Farah Omar, and cameraman Rabih Al-Me’mari

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/israeli-attack-kills-two-journalists-south-lebanon-0?nid=316601&topic=Israel-Palestine%2520war&fid=489896 Alssk (talk) 18:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Why the need for this special page on journalists at all?

This page is irrelevant. I get that journalists are killed, but why is there a need for a (or even multiple) special page(s) to document them? How are they special from the soldiers, doctors, teachers, shopkeepers, farmers, cleaners, schoolchildren that are killed? Simply being a journalist doesn't make one notable enough to be mentioned, unless it's a known media personality - it's simply a vocation. In fact, having a page on killing of women and children would even be more notable because of more international outrage. --121.7.26.36 (talk) 01:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Because of the countless articles on RS covering this topic. Poyani (talk) 06:44, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@121.7.26.36 Wartime reporting is absolutely critical to relaying information to people outside of the war zone. If you don't see the importance of that, or why someone like a doctor is less important in similar context, then you are purposely trying to be difficult. It has nothing to do with outrage and everything to do with documenting the deliberate suppression of information. If one institution kills of all of the other institutions reporting capabilites, that's significant. You see it already on Wikipedia. Very few, if any, sources come from Palestine. Almost all of them come from IDF or US news organizations. People on Wikipedia even go so far as to say anything from Hamas is simply not credible, because they are "to the West" a terrorist organization. See how that works? That's why knowing if one side is killing off the other sides journalist is important. 47.132.127.113 (talk) 05:33, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2023

On December 7, 2023 Reuters published a special report that concluded: "Israeli tank fire killed Reuters journalist Issam Abdallah in Lebanon." The Reuters investigation stated that "An Israeli tank crew killed a Reuters journalist and wounded six reporters in Lebanon on Oct. 13 by firing two shells in quick succession from Israel while the journalists were filming cross-border shelling."

Additionally, on December 7, 2023 Reuters Editor-in-Chief Alessandra Galloni issued a video statement saying in part, "we call on Israel to explain how this could have happened, and to hold to account those responsible for his death." Ohradiogirl (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

I've been working on an article about violence before 2023. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Palestinian_journalists

Could we add this in a See also section? homo momo (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Merge proposal (5 January 2024)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Clear consensus against merging. Some editors suggested moving Samer Abu Daqqa to Killing of Samer Abu Daqqa but consensus for it is not clear from this discussion alone. Soni (talk) 23:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

---

Merge Samer Abu Daqqa into Killing of journalists in the 2023 Israel-Hamas war. WP:BLP1E, WP:RECENT, WP:SUSTAINED, WP:EFFECT, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:PERSISTENCE, WP:GEOSCOPE, WP:EVENT. This proposal comes after the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Samer Abu Daqqa showed interest in a merge. JM (talk) 22:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

•  Comment: Samer deserves an article without merging it with the article Killing of journalists in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. Samer was killed because he was a journalist and was not killed in a mass attack. Rather, he was killed in an attack on the Al Jazeera crew. He was also the first Al Jazeera network journalist to be killed in Gaza! He is also one of the founders of the Al Jazeera office in Gaza, and the Al Jazeera network referred his murder case to the International Court of Justice, and it also received great press coverage. — Osama Eid ^(talk) 19:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

This article should not be merged, Samer deserves his own article, he wasn't just killed by a strike, he was left to bleed for hours and this makes this case quite unique and worthy of an independent page, especially considering the ICC cases that are being submitted Chaialhurriya (talk) 21:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Which policy is that? JM (talk) 23:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose main consensus at AfD was to move it to Killing of Samer Abu Daqqa. I don't care if article title changes or not, but I do believe it is adequately a stand-alone article, and with likely WP:SUSTAINED investigations in the future to come. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  False, the AfD was closed with The result was no consensus‎. Opinion is split between keep and merge. Since there is no prospect of a consensus to delete, there is no point in continuing this AfD. Consensus for a merger can be sought in a talk page discussion if desired. Emphasis mine. Anyone can go look at that AfD for themselves, that's why I linked it. JM (talk) 23:11, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Shushugah: FYI, those investigations you mentioned have come. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support per WP:BIO1E and other policies mentioned by the nominator. I have explained my position at length in the AfD. gidonb (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I share the same opinion as Osps7. The article has enough sources to stand on its own. The articles about the killing of journalists provide context and analysis of these incidents. I see no clear reason why this article should be merged Riad Salih (talk) 15:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: This killing is now the subject of a further in-depth investigation by the Intercept - as clear a piece of evidence of ongoing, sustained coverage for the topic as anyone could wish for. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I think the Samer Abu Daqqa article needs some cleanup and more sources (those citation needed refs), but some of his awards and notable facts suggest he was somewhat noteworthy before his killing.

homo momo (talk) 05:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: I don't see why it should be merged in such a general article. Instead suggest moving to Killing of Samer Abu Daqqa. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:BLP1E FortunateSons (talk) 21:30, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

But the killing incident seems to be notable. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but not really enough for a whole article? which is why I would be against deletion and in favour of merging FortunateSons (talk) 11:48, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources like [1], published almost a month after the incident, can be used to establish the notability. --Mhhossein ^talk 04:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Abu Daqqa's killing is independently notable. nableezy - 17:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The individual is notable on his own right. Mercy11 (talk) 18:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose:Killing of journalists in the Israel–Hamas war is too long and Samer Abu Daqqa could stand alone.GolsaGolsa (talk) 11:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  If it's too long, shouldn't it be split by date, not into individual articles? JM (talk) 15:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Fully covering this topic would be undue weight in that article. This event meets the gng and is suitable for a standalone article. nableezy - 19:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: deserves a standalone article given significant coverage. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as discussed by others there's been WP:SIGCOV and on that basis and can exist in a standalone article. No opinion on whether that article should be renamed or not. TarnishedPath^talk 06:15, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: There has been significant coverage.

Alternative: In lieu of merging, move to Killing of Samer Abu Daqqa and restructure as appropriate. But I support article in current form first and foremost. WC gudang inspirasi (^{Read! Talk!}) 02:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC) not EC FortunateSons (talk) 05:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deadliest month in decades, not deadliest war, for journalists

The article claims that "By 6 December, it was believed to be the deadliest war for journalists in decades." The body of the cited article says "According to press freedom campaigners, the last month has been the most deadly for almost three decades." https://www.theguardian.com/media/audio/2023/dec/04/why-is-the-israel-hamas-conflict-so-deadly-for-journalists-podcast

The Syrian civil war has been more deadly for journalists. See these links: Reporters with Borders and Syrian Network for Human Rights AndyBloch (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Stats in lead need updating

January 18 list https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker

Irtapil (talk) 15:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 January 2024

These two sentences should be removed or rewritten (they are incorrect, the original statement was only about "the last month" being the most deadly month):

> By 6 December, it was believed to be the deadliest war for journalists in decades.

> CPJ stated this was the deadliest conflict for journalists in the past 30 years. AndyBloch (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

 Already done (partially) - The first sentence was removed in this edit.

The second sentence is not incorrect as it reports a statement by an advocacy group, with attribution and a reliable source, rather than a factual claim. Public statements by major groups like CPJ are notable and should be covered even if they disagree with other sources (though any disagreement should also be covered if widely reported). See WP:NPOV and WP:DUE in particular. Jamedeus (talk) 00:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring

@BilledMammal: Please stop edit warring, self-revert and seek consensus first on the talk page for the insertion of disputed material. There is no need for attribution as these figures are both used without reservation by the CPJ and the UN. [2] Makeandtoss (talk) 09:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: The figure from the UN and the CPJ are different from the figure in our article, and the UN figure appears to include "media workers" - it is unclear what the difference between media workers and journalists are. For the figure we currently include, 136, I don't think there is any source that provides it unattributed. BilledMammal (talk) 10:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: You are very well aware that 1RR is not an allowance and that you reverted despite objections to your insertion. So please self-revert first. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I'm treating it as an allowance. The easy way to resolve this is to determine how reliable sources present these figures.

Unfortunately, reliable sources have tended to avoid these figures - the most reliable source that I have seen is the Al Jazeera one currently in the article, but other sources that attribute are the New Indian Express, Al Mayadeen, Palestine Chronicle, and Observer BD. There are a few sources that don't, including the Cradle and Doha news, but unless you are aware of a few high quality sources that don't attribute then we can't put it in wikivoice. BilledMammal (talk) 11:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You are treating it as an allowance by refusing to self-revert before discussion per WP:BRD. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

If you are saying that we should restore the status quo before discussion per WP:BRD, then the version we should restore is this one, not the one you restored. I can't restore it, as I think that would be a WP:1RR violation, but I won't object if you do. BilledMammal (talk) 11:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: I didn't say anything about a status quo, I said if you want to boldly insert something, then when you are reverted, you are expected to discuss it not rerevert it. You inserted the attribution and I removed it; now what version are you talking about? There is no 1RR violation for self-reverts. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

One revert, almost two weeks after a bold change, is not treating 1RR as an allowance, particularly when the bold change was to align the article with the provided source.

Can we return to the actual topic of this discussion - do you have reliable sources that put this claim in their own voice? BilledMammal (talk) 13:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

A cameraman might be called either a "media worker" or "video journalist", depending on the source. For the purposes of attacks on journalists, there is pretty much no difference between killing an on-camera journalist and killing their journalistic crews – they are both egregious assaults on the media and the freedom of the press. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all that - my concern with the UN figures is whether they are counting the same individuals that CPJ and the Gaza Media Office are, given that they use different language. BilledMammal (talk) 11:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 June 2024

TLDR; Change "Israel–Hamas war" to "Israel-Palestine war" in the title

Explanation: I would strongly suggest that the title be renamed as "Killing of journalists in the Israel–Palestine war". Palestine is recognized as a state in 147 out of the 193 countries in the entire world, and it's not just against Hamas as there are many factions in Gaza and the West Bank that are also involved in armed resistance. This is also I beleive, an attempt to disregard Palestine as a state which I find to be politically charged and unfair. Hamas is simply the current political entity in power, but is now operating jointly with the PFLP, PIJ (Al-Quds), PRC and other communist based organizations. This is also a war in the West Bank where Fatah is the politcal entity; Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades being the military wing, as well as the Jenin Brigades participating in armed resistance. KaliKorce (talk) 06:21, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This would require the consensus of other editors. Also, the current official title of the ongoing war (whatever you want to call it) on Wikipedia is the Israel–Hamas war. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 22:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

POV tag

CPJ takes the numbers of killed Palestinian journalists from its own investigations and not from a media office, so why has this misleading attribution been added to the opening sentence?

“ As of June 24, 2024, CPJ’s preliminary investigations showed at least 108 journalists and media workers were among the more than 38,000 killed since the war began, making it the deadliest period for journalists since CPJ began gathering data in 1992. [3] ”

Also the sentence starting with Israeli casualties and lumping them together with Lebanese and Palestinian journalists, is misleading, as they were killed indiscriminately and not targeted. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I just noticed the above discussion so tagging @BilledMammal: and @Iskandar323: Makeandtoss (talk) 08:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The above is correct. I don't know why it has been falsely attributed in the lead. The CPJ groups all nationalities, so that's just the way it is. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:33, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The lead appears to be jamming two sets of statistics together in the same sentence. The CPJ and Gazan authority ones. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I've un-fudged the blended stats. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: Thanks. Can you please reorder to conflict in Gaza, Lebanon and Israel.. and then Palestinian, Lebanese and Israeli journalists? per casualty count. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I meant to order by casualty count, so that's fixed. Location I had done by chronology of involvement, but A-Z is perhaps best / most neutral. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Source reliability

I've opened a discussion at RSN on the reliability of the source "Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential", which cited in this article: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Wording

"Journalists Mohammed El Salhi, Ibrahim Mohamed Lafi, Mohamed Jarghoun, Ibrahim Qanan, Nidal Al Wahidi, and Haitham Abdelwahid also faced various forms of violence or went missing." is very broad, generalized wording and partially redundant.

I would submit, "Journalist Ibrahim Qanan was injured and journalists Nidal Al Wahidi, and Haitham Abdelwahid have been detained." ([4])

THE OTHER THREE WERE KILLED AND ALREADY APPEAR IN List of journalists killed in the Israel–Hamas war

• Mohammed El Salhi was killed ([5])
• Ibrahim Mohamed Lafi ([6])
• Mohamed Jarghoun ([7])

148.75.59.49 (talk) 23:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

CORRECTION IN RE Killing of journalists in the Israel–Hamas war#Israel

"As of 30 August 2024, over 42,000 people ... including 116 journalists (111 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA"

SHOULD BE: "As of 30 August 2024, over 42,000 people ... including 116 journalists (111 Palestinian, 4 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA"

(4 Israeli journalists, not 2). 148.75.59.49 (talk) 23:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

fair enough but please provide a source? We need a source (maybe an updated CBS article)?

I don't see such an update on the CBS article. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Bluethricecreamman -- see this link. Thanks. 148.75.59.49 (talk) 23:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Done Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The Committee to Protect Journalists initially reported 4 Israeli journalists killed, but now reports it as 2, perhaps due to definition of journalist vs media worker. I will including the International Federation of Journalists statistics, which reports it as 134 journalists and media workers in total. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh wait... did not finish reading this? Meh, i'll self revert and let other folks figure this out. sorry Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I have edited it here inside the Template:Israel–Hamas war casualties. Thank you for the useful suggestion. We can avoid WP:Speculation on Wikipedia and simply list both methodologies. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Factually Inaccurate Statement in First Sentence

It states in the first sentence that "The killing of journalists in the Israel-Hamas war marks...the deadliest conflict for journalists in the 21st century." This is false. There have been more deaths of journalists in at least the Syrian civil war (https://rsf.org/en/toll-ten-years-civil-war-journalists-syria) and Iraq (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/mar/22/deadly-war-against-iraq-journalists-killed). Both of these conflicts occurred in the 21st century and were more deadly for journalists. Apndrew (talk) 03:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

How do we correct this? This whole article also doesn't mention any difference in case a journalist is a combatant with a double hat, as it often happens in Gaza. 2A00:A040:199:7426:4C66:9840:E6CE:77A1 (talk) 06:41, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

i think guardian means most deaths per day. you cant use another source that doesnt mention israel hamas war like that without WP:SYNTH anyways. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)