Talk:Kiro Gligorov/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Tosatur (talk · contribs) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tosatur, what's the status of this review? Is it ready to close? asilvering (talk) 03:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

GA Notice

GA Notice
Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article [[Talk:Kiro Gligorov/GA|Kiro Gligorov]] in which you've been a major contributor, and has been nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to [[User_talk:|contact me]] with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Tosatur (talk) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
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I made a few edits during the review. My thoughts are below:

I think there are quite a few things in this article which need further explanation. They might be clear to someone who is more familiar with the topic but not a casual reader. This could be a link or an explanation in the paragraph. For example:

"On 29 May 1996, in Helsinki, a solemn statement by Gligorov confirmed the accession of the Republic of Macedonia to the CSCE Final Document."

Why was the statement solemn? What is the CSCE Final Document?

"He was released on the orders of Skopje Mayor Spiro Kitinchev, who guaranteed that he was a trustworthy Bulgarian."

What does "trustworthy Bulgarian" mean here? This should be explained in more detail.

His vice president/prime minister is only mentioned in the infobox. Also, there should probably be a note explaining that Macedonia only had 1 vice-president in 1991.

"Gligorov was of the opinion that Albanians would always have a share in the governing of Macedonia."

I think this needs more clarification. It isn't explained anywhere that Albanians are a significant minority in Macedonia. Also, how did he think this "share" should be implemented? Why did he then dismiss the Albanian demands for greater rights in 2001?

The first paragraph in the Personal life and death section is more at home in the Honours section.

The Politics section could use some subheadings, separating his service in Yugoslavia from his service in SR Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia.

"In 2017, he was posthumously honoured with the Order "Saint Nicholas" (St. Nikola) by the Municipality of Štip."

Shouldn't this simply say "The Order of Saint Nicholas" (and optionally, the name of the award in Macedonian)

"He was awarded the Mediterranean Peace Prize on 5 January 1998 in Naples."

I found two more accessible sources for this: [1] [2]

I don't think this source looks reliable. It could be removed without invalidating any of the statements made in the article.

The article seems well-illustrated, stable, and neutral, and I haven't found any issues with verifiability.

Tosatur (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

- I removed the sentence about CSCE since I found out that it was inaccurate. By then, it was nonexistent and was replaced by OSCE. This is evidently an error by the Macedonian Encyclopedia.

- I gave more context to the guarantee by Kitinchev.

- His vice president and prime minister Georgievski, as well as prime minister Crvenkovski, are now both mentioned in the article's body too. I also added a note about the vice president position as recommended.

- I added more content about his stance on Albanians. It should be clear now.

- I moved the first paragraph of the Personal life and death section to the Honours section but retained the last sentence. It makes more sense for the details about his retirement to remain in the Personal life and death section.

- I split the Politics section into two sub-sections as recommended.

- I think no change is needed regarding the Order. The name of the Order is simply "Saint Nicholas" and that's how it is referred to in sources.

- I added one of the sources you recommended about the Mediterranean Peace Prize. I could not access the other one.

- I removed the unreliable source. StephenMacky1 (talk) 21:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for those changes, I've just gone through the article again. I added a citation to the statement "They had one son and two daughters" (Personal life and death)

Is it possible to get a source for note 2? I wasn't able to find this backed up in source 1. (I could find a mention of Ljubčo Georgievski, but not that the position was abolished after his resignation)

Also, where is the source for "on 7 March, he entrusted the mandate to Nikola Kljusev to form the first government" (Macedonia)? I wasn't able to find this in source 30.

Source 14 and source 42 are the same book but different editions (2010 and 2019 respectively). I found the same statement backed up by source 42 in the 2010 edition, on page 329. I would recommend changing source 42 to be the same as source 14.

I can't find any source for "in 2000, the Guinness Book of World Records listed Gligorov as the world's oldest president" (Personal life and death), even from Guinness themselves. They list Joaquín Balaguer as the oldest president.

As for "some politicians and academics came to pay their respects beforehand" (Personal life and death) maybe it would be better to add who attended? The source given states that Gjorge Ivanov and Gorancho Koteski were in attendance.

Source 61 is broken, but could easily be replaced by source 60 for the sentence "he was buried in Butel Municipality, Skopje" (Personal life and death)

I think the Memoirs section needs to include sources, just something saying that the books do exist and were written by Kiro Gligorov.

The Honours section needs to lead into the list better (eg. Other honours given to Gligorov include: list). Also, try to include the years the honours were won, and add links for the ones that have their own articles.

Source 66 states that Gligorov had an affair with his culture advisor? If this is true, it should be included in the article, probably in the personal life section.

Other notes on sources:

• Source 5, I couldn't find a copy of it, so I can't verify if it backs up the statement.
• Source 8, I could only find the 2009 edition of it, so I could only verify the withdrawal of JNA (d, p.203) and statements about Vladimir Gligorov (e, p.86)
• Source 13, I could only find the 2001 edition, but still verified citations, so that one's fine.
• Source 16, I couldn't find a copy of it anywhere, can't verify.
• Source 24, I couldn't find a version that includes the page cited, p. 391, unable to verify.
• Source 30, verified, except for the sentence about Nikola Klujsev, as mentioned previously.
• Source 32, I could only find the 1997 edition, but still was able to verify.
• Source 42, verified on page 329 of the 2010 edition.
• Source 61, broken, as mentioned previously.

Tosatur (talk) 10:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

- I thought it was already verified in its respective article, so I removed that part. There isn't any information about the vice president position in sources.

- I added a source about the mandate for Kljusev.

- I removed the 2010 edition and replaced it entirely with the 2019 edition.

- I removed the part about Guinness. That appears to be an error on Sloboden Pecat's behalf.

- I mentioned some of the people who came to pay respects as recommended.

- I replaced the broken Makfax source with the Utrinski vesnik source.

- I cited a source for the Memoirs section.

- I added the years for the honours which could be verified and the links of existing articles. For the rest, I've put "Unknown."

- I could not be able to tell if he had an affair. I've only encountered that information in Macedonian news sources and not in any non-Macedonian sources. All of them trace their information from one news source, which we have no access to. If we can't tell how, why, where and when he had an affair, then we shouldn't include it.

- I added a quote for Dismembering the State: The Death of Yugoslavia and why it Matters.

- Well, the 2019 edition is almost identical as the 2009 edition regarding the statements. The only difference is that Gligorov was not deceased when the 2009 edition got released. You can try accessing the 2019 edition through your phone if some pages do not appear when you are on your PC for example.

- Here is a quote for source 16: Gligorov, Kiro (1917-) Macedonian politician and president of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (1991-1999). After he finished law school at Belgrade University, Kiro Gligorov worked in private banking until the beginning of World War II. In 1941 he joined the partisan movement and was accepted into the KPJ in 1944. After World War II he became the Yugoslav finance minister (1962-1967), vice president (1967-1969), a member of the Yugoslav presidency (1969-1972), and president of the Yugoslav Parliament (1974-1978). He was elected president of the presidency of Macedonia in 1990, reelected in 1994, and then badly wounded in an attempt on his life on 3 October 1995. He retired in 1999. An archived version of the source is available online.

- I added a quote for source 24. StephenMacky1 (talk) 17:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that all looks great. Regarding the affair, I agree it shouldn't be included in the article. As for the sources, I consider them all verified.

A few other criticisms; It would be nice to have more info about his early life and personal life post-politics, like details on his religion and his parents. I understand Gligorov wasn't the most well documented figure though. More images would be good as well, there are a few on wikimedia, like 12. Could help to illustrate his early career a bit more.

I think the sentence "Along with some other communist activists, he saw the solution of the Macedonian Question through a "federation of the Balkan peoples" does not clarify much. Is this saying that Gligorov, along with other communists, decided that Macedonia should be a part of Yugoslavia? If so, the same source can be used, but the sentence should be rewritten to be more clear.

Also, if Gligorov helped decide to make Macedonia a part of Yugoslavia, I think it should be included in the politics section. If possible, the article should include more info about how, if at all, Gligorov contributed to this decision. The ASNOM article contains more info on what exactly ASNOM decided.

I think some paragraphs in the text can be broken up to make them more readable, like the lead, early life, and first paragraph of the Macedonia section. Tosatur (talk) 19:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Drive by comments from User:Goldsztajn

@Tosatur asked me to have a quick look at the review (I'm listed as a GA mentor) - some observations: the article's lede is too short and needs to be expanded (see MOS:LEDE), the section on his role in Yugoslavia is too short (yes, he is most widely known for his role in North Macedonia's independence, but this part overwhelms the article at present) and the article appears to lack neutrality.

In many sources, he's repeatedly referred to as a close associate of Tito and a key official in Yugoslavia ("a comrade of Josip Broz (Tito) and high-ranking member of the former socialist elite" (p.311) Constitutional Politics in Central and Eastern Europe: From Post-Socialist Transition to the Reform of Political Systems). Furthermore, the overall tone of the article is uncritical - reading the article he does not appear to be subject to a single criticism. However, from a quick search, for example, I find the following: "The Communist Party of Yugoslavia (CPY) finance minister who most furthered early Yugoslav economic reform (beginning in May 1952) was a Macedonian named Kiro Gligorov... One consequence of his actions, nonetheless, was the rise in corrupt misuse of such loosened financial accountability and the subsequent abuse of funds" (Paradigm Lost: Yugoslav Self-Management and the Economics of Disaster). Or "Gligorov is still blamed for his attempt to save Yugoslavia (through the so-called Gligovor-Izetbegovic proposal) instead of leading the process of establishing the state’s independence, something that the other republic leaders had been doing for quite some time before the federation’s final demise." (p. 104 Civic and Uncivic Values in Macedonia)

His character is more complex than the article indicates: described as "the fox of the Balkans" (p.53 Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans), "his genius for survival and solutions - which earned him the nickname "the fox""(p.43 The Wreckage Reconsidered: Five Oxymorons from Balkan Deconstruction), "the wily Kiro Gligorov - whose survival through four decades of communism earned him the nickname the fox" (p.212 Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation).

With the lack of focus on the Yugoslav period and the overly positive framing, I'd be somewhat concerned that the article does not meet the criteria for "broad coverage" or neutrality (criteria 3 and 4 of a good article). No doubt, sources do evaluate Gligorov positively in areas (eg "credited with keeping Macedonia out of the War of Yugoslav Succession" (p.4 Civic and Uncivic Values in Macedonia) - but that's not the full picture and I feel the article needs to address those other areas to achieve GA status. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, I agree with your comments regarding broad coverage and neutrality. I wasn't aware of the other aspects of Gligorov's career, this has been very helpful. @StephenMacky1 the above comments should be a pretty good framework on how to improve the article further.

I do think the article has improved a lot recently so I'm hesitant to fail the review, instead I can place it on hold until the issues are addressed. Tosatur (talk) 07:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Taking note of all of the feedback here. I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd place the review on hold. StephenMacky1 (talk) 09:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I'll put it on hold for a week and check back in after that. Tosatur (talk) 13:53, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello Tosatur. 7 days have passed. The following actions were undertaken regarding the issues here:

- I added more information that I could find about his early life. I also added more information about his life post-politics. I added two more images for illustration, but they aren't of good quality because they're old.

- I added more context behind the sentence about his support for a Balkan Federation. There isn't much documentation about this matter in sources too.

- Broke up the paragraphs for better readability.

- I expanded the lead a bit, but it's already in line with MOS:LEADLENGTH. The article has fewer than 2,500 words, so two paragraphs in the lead are enough.

- I added more information about his role in Yugoslavia.

- I added the negative outcome of his policy when he was a finance minister.

- I added the information about his nickname and aspects of his persona. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I'll look over these changes and get back to you ASAP.

Tosatur (talk) 01:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I made some minor edits to make the article flow better and to fix grammatical errors.

I think the article still needs to cover more negative viewpoints towards Gligorov's policies. For example, as @Goldsztajn described, Gligorov was blamed for his attempt to save Yugoslavia via the plan he submitted with Izetbegovic.

I also think that it should be explained briefly what Ante Markovic's economic reform plan entailed, in order to get a better view on Gligorov's economic views.

These are the only criticisms I have for now. Tosatur (talk) 07:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

- I did not include that "criticism" because it lacks context (i.e. vague). It is only mentioned as part of a note and it does not elaborate who exactly still blames him. There is no way to put that in wikivoice. I added Tito's view towards his policy instead. I tried to find some other criticisms against Gligorov, but most of them consisted of accusations against him made by nationalists, which is still a common political tactic even nowadays.

- I added more context about Marković's reform plan, but it tells more about Marković than Gligorov. StephenMacky1 (talk) 22:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

GA review complete

I have decided to promote this article to GA. I find that it meets all the GA criteria.

The issues with neutrality mentioned earlier were settled by including criticisms of Gligorov. The issues regarding verifiability were solved also. I have found no major issues in the article's prose. The article contains a decent amount of images to satisfy the GA criteria. Tosatur (talk) 06:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the review Tosatur. Keep up the good work. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)