Talk:Kitsune/Archive 1

Archive 1

Korean and Indian references

It states it is "widely agreed that" it came from China, Korea or India. What is the reference for that? Who is are those people who are "widely agree" to it? Checking Korean reference to nine tail fox - it has neither the date or authority. On the other hand, Japan has writing dating from 4 century. So how is that possible that it came from Korea? China has a very good source and writings with regards to nine tail fox. How did India came into this as well? Please provide reference that it is 1: widely agreed that it came from China, Korea or India. ( So it means no one really knows then) and 2) The source for Korea as without any information it can't stand to claim validity to being the source of the myth. With no reference to any of those statements, it should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.14.135 (talk) 05:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

• (fixed formatting of first line --Thnidu (talk) 16:26, 4 April 2018 (UTC))

Listings

Should these two be listed on the same page? I understand that there's currently little material on either of them, but it would probably be better if they were separated now before it grows bigger. --Pipian

That's a good question. I haven't made up my mind on whether or not to split raccoon dog and tanuki, which are currently on the same page. There are arguments for splitting them as well as keeping them together. A longer article isn't always better either. Curiously, on Japan's website tanuki / raccoon dog share the same page, and kitsune / fox share the same page as well. Well, linguistically it seems natural at least. --Tokek 12:15, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've separated them. -- JRice 16:12, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Actually, there are 2 articles about foxes in Japanese Wikipedia. ja:キツネ (in Katakana) about themselves and their legends, and ja:きつね (in Hiragana) about foxes as metafor, their legends (they are separated into both articles), foxes in stories, and dishes named Kitsune. The scope of this article is larger than that of きつね. This article also contains some part of キツネ, but I believe きつね is suitable to link with this article.

Same is true in 2 Japanese articles about raccoon dogs, ja:タヌキ and ja:たぬき, but at this moment たぬき only mentions about dishes named Tanuki (like Kitsune, it doesn't mean the dishes contain Tanuki meat).--KAWASAKI Hiroyuki 09:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, they seem to have changed things a bit and merged the two into one page. Now both キツネ, きつね, and 狐 redirect to the same page. The only separate page given for a specific kitsune type is ja:きつね (麺類), "Kitsune (Noodle)", for the type of Udon and Soba noodle. :) Identity0 10:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems to work how it is, even obvious inspirations from Kitsune are here, such as the Keaton

Merge from Kitsune-Tsuki?

I've proposed that the little bit of information at Kitsune-Tsuki be merged into this article. It seems that fox possession should be part of the main article on fox spirits, not in its own stub. Should this article ever get so large that a split is warranted, we can do so at that point. But as of now, I think it's best to keep our fox-spirit information in one place. Any comments? — Amcaja 19:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Might be useful. I'd set it up as a stub since it was redlinked from the list of Japanese mythical creatures, but I hadn't got around to digging for the information to add yet. It could easily be set up as a subsection of the kitsune article. One thing: I just noticed there's another article at kitsunetsuki (without the hyphen), which has a little bit more information. Shimeru 21:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the merge. By the way, technically the non-hyphenated page is about a psychosis...like the Japanese version of that disorder where people think they are werewolves. But both articles could be merged into the fox page. MikeDockery 10:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Went ahead and merged them, since I was doing a little cleanup on the page anyway. Shimeru 18:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Kitsune otherkin

• See Otherkin. --Thnidu (talk) 16:31, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I have to protest at the first link to http://kitsune.heliwood.org/. Bitter skeptic I may be, but it's thoroughly embarrassing to see an otherkin link on a page that otherwise I like.

Firstly, the person who linked the site in the first place (IP address 24.47.162.109) has apparently made no other contributions to Wikipedia according to the user history, which makes me think that the original edit was nothing other than a blatant self-promotion by the site's authors themselves. Also notice that the user who linked it in this article placed it at the top. They included a detailed description of the site where, judging by the other links, none was needed.

Secondly, the site is a bamboozling mix of (a) valid "facts about the myths" and (b) otherkin ramblings, and anybody with no experience with the otherkin phenomenon will be able to make neither head nor tail of it. It seems much more suited to a link from [Otherkin] or something like that. Comments? 86.136.130.16 22:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know what otherkin is, but the site was a little strange, and definitely didn't deserve the long promotion it was receiving on this page before. If someone wants to come up with a better description for the link, I've moved it here:

A website by kitsune, for kitsune, containing not only personal essays and experiences, but also providing snippets and sections of scholarly works on kitsune, some of which are out of date or out of print

'Kitsune in fiction'

I've split it. It was nearly as long as the rest of the article, and it tended to attract exposition of irrelevant fluff, so I gave it a home at kitsune in popular culture, where it'll be out of the way of the folklore but still accessible for interested parties to look over. Shimeru 16:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Infinite vision

The article says that when a kitsune grows nine tails, it gains the power of infinite vision. What does this mean? I've never heard the term "infinite vision" before. Evernut 16:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It means the ability to see (and hear) what's occurring anywhere in the world, regardless of the kitsune's own position. Sometimes this is also said to include "infinite wisdom" -- basically, omniscience. I'll change the article to say as much. Shimeru 18:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Evernut 16:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Powers

"They also have a special power to take the human into the spirit world with them, and if you accept coming with them, you can never return to the human world."

...I don't recall hearing that one before. Which legend or folktale includes it? Shimeru 09:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the above sentence. If someone knows of a traditional folktale where it appears, feel free to put it back in. If it's from a more modern source like a video game or movie, it'd be more appropriate at kitsune in popular culture. Shimeru 17:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Besides shapeshifting, what are the other abilities Kitsunes possess, I heard people talk about something call "fox balls" or energy orbs among other things? - RVDDP2501 13:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Depends on the source. The last paragraph under "Characteristics" deals with various kitsune powers. Some are more common in the tales than others. Shimeru 21:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah thank you, I found though that the powers were a bit too widely dispersed in that section and it took me a while to find them all - RVDDP2501 00:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"Kitsune kao"

I removed the following from the "other uses" section:

Kitsune kao or fox face refers to females who have a narrow face with close-set eyes, thin eyebrows, and high cheekbones. Conversely, tanuki kao (raccoon dog face) describes a face with wide-set eyes, a wide forehead, full lips, and a round shape.

I was unable to find any sources with which to cite the statement. It sounds like reasonable slang to me, not unlike the "shoyu/sauce" complexion thing that was in vogue a few years back, but if it can't be verified it doesn't belong in the article. Shimeru 18:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Addition: I did manage to find an informal confirmation of the slang. I have still not been able to find any mention in a reliable source. Shimeru 09:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've found a source, at least for the kitsune-gao portion of the statement. It seems that the slang is derived from (or a revival of) an older tradition. I reinstated the mention, with the reference. Shimeru 19:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Good article status

I've passed this as a good article. It is a well-written, broad coverage of a complex subject and certainly deserves recognition for the effort that has been put into its creation and referencing. I do have some suggestions as to how to improve it further:

• §2. Is there an established etymology of the word kitsune? If not, perhaps this section should be entitled "Folk etymologies..." instead of "False etymologies...." If there is, it might deserve a brief mention.
• §3. Should the wordings of this section (and perhaps the title) be adjusted to avoid implying that it is discussion the origins of real foxes (i.e. import or introduction) to Japan?
• §4. A reference for kitsunesuki as an ethnic psychosis would be valuable.
• §6. A reference for the Scottish linguistic parallel would be nice; if some reference can be found actually discussing the parallel evolution of the two phrases, that would be ideal (but not required, and possibly not extant).

All in all, excellent work! Serpent's Choice 04:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I've attempted to address all of these. I think there might be a bit more rewrite due, and I've another source to check for additional information. Glad to see it passed GA though. Shimeru 10:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Kitsune in bunraku, noh, kabuki, etc

An excellent and interesting article, fun to read and quite detailed; but I find very little given to the representation of kitsune in traditional drama. This is also absent from Kitsune in popular culture. While I'm not sure we need an exhaustive list of every play and story that kitsune feature in, I think it would be helpful and interesting to see a bit more attention paid. I'm currently reading Yoshitsune Senbon Zakura, and will likely create an article at some point for Genkurō Kitsune (Satō Tadanobu) who features prominently in it; beyond that I'd be happy to help in whatever way I can with this, but my knowledge & sources on such tales are not the greatest. Thank you. LordAmeth 16:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

A good point. I want to keep the section to a reasonable size, but there is more that could be said about it, so I've expanded it a little bit. A few redlinks are in place in preparation for articles about the plays and the character Genkuro; feel free to start those. (I think I used the 'Sembon' romanization, too... one of those should redirect to the other, doesn't matter which. Change it to 'Senbon' if you prefer.) I've sourced them mostly from online sites and the Nozaki book -- the latter is rare, but it shouldn't be necessary, since other print sources on the plays exist. Shimeru 05:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Nihon Ryakki

Where does the information on the Nihon Ryakki come from? I tried to find it in the linked e-text of the book by Lafcadio Hearn, but the term "Nihon Ryakki" yields no hits when I search for it. — Amcaja 09:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's from Nozaki, not Hearn. Thanks for pointing that out, I'd cited the wrong source somehow. The paragraph describes the way in which the Ryakki describes fox sightings even in the heart of Imperial Kyoto, including an incident in 820 where Foxes walked up the stairs of the Imperial Palace. Shimeru 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Copy edits

I just wanted to go over a few of the changes I made with the copy edit. Looking at the diff, it seem that a lot was moved, deleted, etc., but really, it wasn't. Here's a brief rundown:

• Well, firstly, I copy edited. This involved removing some redundant language, which accounts for the reduction in the article's overall size. None of the meaning has been changed (unless if by accident).
• I further delinked simple terms from the article. I think the density of links is still quite high and should satisfy anyone who thought there weren't enough links in the past.
• I made sure that the first instance of linkworthy terms was linked and then delinked any further instances. This does not account for the lead and the picture captions, which should be treated separately from the body.
• I moved a few things around. The stuff on fox balls seemed to be dealing more with the kitsune's ability to shapeshift and general characteristics, so I moved it under that section. Most other moves were just a sentence or two here and there. I eliminated the heading "supernatural abilities", since talk of the kitsune's powers permeates the article. Better to just merge it all under "characteristics", I think.
• I reworded a few section titles. No big deal to change them back, but I of course prefer the reworded versions. :)
• I reworded some captions to better represent the images depicted.
• I deleted the "other uses" (a.k.a. "trivia") section. The information has been merged into the main article in hopefully the most appropariate places.
• There was one statement that I felt needed a citation, so I tagged it with {{fact}}.
• I changed some future tense stuff to present when kitsune's habitual actions are being discussed. This makes the prose more immediate and interesting. Trick I learned form my RPG-writing days. :)
• I prosified the list of famous kitsune. Lists are really frowned upon at FAC, so best to avoid them.
• One change that I didn't emply, but a good one to take a look at, comes from the page's auto-peer review:
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”

If anyone has any questions about any other changes I made, please let me know. — Amcaja 10:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Impressive. Thanks for taking the time. Shimeru 01:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Want More References?

I come bearing gifts:

• de Visser, M.W. (1908). "The Fox and the Badger in Japanese Folklore". Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan. 36: 1–159. Retrieved Dec. 14, 2006. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

http://obakemono.com/misc/AmericanAnthro-Vol48No1-1946-RiceGoddessFox.pdf http://obakemono.com/misc/JournalAmericanFolklore-Vol13No50-1900-FoxPossessionJapan.pdf http://obakemono.com/misc/Vol18-1959-GoblinFox.pdf Kotengu 05:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Google will only give me "snippet view" on the first one. Any idea what gives? — Amcaja 08:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That's very odd. I always get full-view for that book. Looks like you don't have to be logged in to google either. Try again? Kotengu 18:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No dice logged in or out. If I go to the main search screen and search full-view books for "mujina" (which seems to be the term you used to find the book), that volume does not show up. Very irritating that someting from 1907 is still hidden by Google from me. — Amcaja 01:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I added info from Royall Tyler's Japanese Tales. Some of the information I added is quotes from the folk tales he translated; these are just for color, so feel free to remove them if you think they don't add anything. — Amcaja 11:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Something does seem to be up with that Google entry. It's worth dealing with the odd view, though; de Visser is pretty frequently cited by later sources (Smeyers, for instance). I'm happy to see it's available online, though I'm not sure at this point how much it offers in terms of expansion -- all of the vital information is here, thanks to those other sources. Still, more sources never hurt. On that note, thanks for the Tyler additions. Shimeru 08:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Okey dokey. Might be worth a look though - I'm re-writing the tengu article straight from de Visser (with some other sources as supplements) since I find that the more sources this sort of information gets filtered through, the more distorted it gets. I'll try to get a PDF together, but it will probably be somewhat huge. Kotengu 10:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Myth

"Myth" seems the appropriate word in this case: it's used (along with "folktale" and "lore") in various sources, and kitsune are intimately connected to two faiths through Inari. I can't support elimination of the word without at least a couple of sources showing that it shouldn't be used. Shimeru 19:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Servants of Inari

This is not correct: " Fox spirits are particularly fond of a fried sliced tofu called aburaage, which is accordingly found in kitsune udon and kitsune soba. Similarly, ***Inari-zushi is a type of sushi named for Inari that contains fried tofu***.[44]

"Inari-zushi" is, in fact, made by cutting aburaage in half to form pouches which are then stuffed with sushi rice, but I don't know how to check or alter the reference. 71.109.104.226 23:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The passage is: "It should be noted in passing that the reason why one kind of sushi and two kinds of noodles are called "Inari-zushi" and "Kitsune soba/udon" is because all of these dishes contain fried tofu -- hence the Inari and fox associations. And completing the circle on the association, this kind of sushi is commonly offered to Inari." I'll update the article text with the new information, although I don't think it's incorrect so much as inspecific -- it is a type of sushi, just not the standard "roll" some people tend to think of. Shimeru 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Not related to the above, but this still has something to do with kitsune and their association with Inari: In the Inari shrines I've visited, there tend to be two kitsune statues immediately before the shrine itself, one to either side of the walkway. They usually have things in their mouths, the one on the left a scroll of some sort, and the one on the right a ball. Any idea what these objects are supposed to represent? — Amcaja 00:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oops, missed this question previously, somehow. There are a couple of symbolic items depicted on fox statues. The ball was probably a "wish-fulfilling jewel" (they're sometimes represented as pearls rather than faceted jewels). They can also represent the soul. The scroll represents knowledge, and is also a reference to the fox's role as messenger. Other common items include a key (the key to a grain storehouse, representing Inari's role as the rice god, but also symbolic of knowledge), a rice sheaf (again the Inari association), or a fox cub (symbolic of fertility, and sometimes worshipped in conjunction with the "Child-giving Inari"). Most of this summarized from Smyers. Shimeru 19:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Related question, then: Is the ball/jewel the same as the hoshi no tama described in this article? — Amcaja 22:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Er... maybe? ^_^ I rather think so, but I've never been able to find a source saying so for sure. It's a little muddied because jewels have their own associations with Inari. And also because the popular belief doesn't necessarily fit the "canon" of Inari (in so far as there is such a thing) -- which can be seen in the fact that some Shinto priests at Inari shrines find it necessary to point out that Inari is not a fox. Which's one of the things I'm working on detailing in the rewrite of the Inari article, which I should really get around to putting in place in the next few days. Shimeru 01:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

"One of the oldest surviving kitsune tales provides a widely known folk etymology of the word kitsune; the story is now known to be false."

I'm not sure what this sentence is trying to convey. The story itself was thought to be ancient, but really came out of modern times, the story didn't happen in reality, or the story's assertion of etymology is false? ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 00:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The third. Perhaps "story" should be replaced with "etymology". -- Amcaja 01:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hearn on Kitsune

Had Lafcadio Hearn, or Koizumi Yakumo as called himself in the 19th centruy Japan that he adopted as his home, lived to become a Wikipedian, he might well have contributed the following to our Kitsune entry, rather penning it as he did in 1894 for his book, GLIMPSES OF UNFAMILIAR JAPAN, where it opens Chapter 15 - Kitsune:

"By every shady wayside and in every ancient grove, on almost every hilltop and in the outskirts of every village, you may see… some little Shinto shrine, before which, or at either side of which, are images of seated foxes in stone. Usually there is a pair of these, facing each other. But there may be a dozen, or a score, or several hundred, in which case most of the images are very small. And in more than one of the larger towns you may see in the court of some great miya a countless host of stone foxes, of all dimensions, from toy-figures but a few inches high to the colossi whose pedestals tower above your head, all squatting around the temple in tiered ranks of thousands. Such shrines and temples, everybody knows, are dedicated to Inari the God of Rice. After having travelled much in Japan, you will find that whenever you try to recall any country-place you have visited, there will appear in some nook or corner of that remembrance a pair of green-and-grey foxes of stone, with broken noses. In my own memories of Japanese travel, these shapes have become de rigueur, as picturesque detail."

See full text at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8glm110.txt -- Frankatca 20:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Good Featured Article

Good Article!!! Remember, our burdened goal is to provide all knowledge to the deserving humans. 02:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Actual meaning of 'Kitsune'

WTF, Mate? The first words in the article should be, "Kitsune is the Japanese word for foxes of all types, most commonly the Japanese Red Fox (Vulpus Vulpus Japonica)". Note that the Japanese wiki page for キツネ Is mostly about actual foxes, with one section on Japanese folklore and one section on modern cultural references. The first words are, "Kitsune are the common name of the animal in the Mammalian, Carnivoran, Canidae, Vulpini category."

It's okay to have an article on the Japanese mythology of foxes, but this article gives the impression that 'kitsune' is a totally mythological creation, which it is not. It's like walking into the Coyote page of the Japanese wikipedia and having it be about the Native American trickster god. It's especially odd since the Red_Fox article states A subspecies, the Japanese Red Fox (Vulpes vulpes japonica) migrated from India to China and eventually to Japan. It is also known by the Japanese name kitsune (狐). and links to this article, which makes no mention of Vulpes vulpes japonica

I suggest the following changes: 1) Change article title to "Foxes in Japanese Folklore" or similar; and 2) Make prominent mention of the fact that "kitsune" is a Japanese word simply meaning "fox", and does not have mythological connotations unless given a specific context. Identity0 10:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This was already discussed, and the reason that that information isn't here is because the term "kitsune" is what separates the content of this article from the article at "fox". As I see it, this is a case of correctly balancing WP:UE with using the most concise term for the topic in question. Dekimasu 04:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I must admit to similar misgivings about taking a Japanese word and presenting only one minor facet of it to an English-speaking audience as the complete picture of its meaning. Unfortunately this page is not the only example ... seinen comes to mind. I fear that this practice potentially runs afoul of Wikipedia:No original research ... neologisms in particular. At the very least, the regular meaning of the word kitsune should be mentioned in the introductory paragraph, with the comment that this article focuses exclusively on the Japanese superstitions associated with foxes to avoid this kind of confusion. CES 00:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's the fact that I've never heard Kitsune commonly used in English at all, which makes me question the title. I'm not entirely against using Japanese words out of their original context if it has already passed into common English usage in that manner i.e. Anime, kamikaze, katana. But this article seems to be actively trying to create a loanword from Japanese by using a Japanese term to refer only to a narrow sub-category of what the original Japanese word refers to. We could at least change the title to "Japanese Kitsune Myths" or something. Identity0 09:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you SURE there isn't another word for the fox demons and gods other than kitsune? Kitsune is, truly, the Japanese term for fox, not the nine-tailed deamon as far as I know. Secondly, Kitsune is not an onamatopeia. I don't have a citation, but I learned from a trusted source at Middleburry college that It is an Ainu loan word. There are many other such loan words for animal names, such as kuma (bear) tanuki (mythical racoon-dog), snake (hebi) and even god (kami). I don't have the evidence to back this up using web sources, but if you asked a linguist, he or she could confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.253.161 (talk • contribs) 06:12, 15 January 2007

The nine-tailed foxes are kyūbi-no-kitsune, but unfortunately they're not the sole focus of the article. Also unfortunately, foxes-with-supernatural-powers in Japanese folklore are generally just referred to as kitsune; there's no special word that's commonly used. Kotengu 小天狗 06:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

So this is a FEATURED article... (I happened to find this on the Main Page, and... whoa) Okay, I completely agree with Identity0, plus I guess kitsune is to be redirected to fox. For the title of this article, what about ja:妖狐 (Youko, Yōko, Yōko (something), or like)? ... well the article says ja:管狐 is not included, thus kitsune (something) might be better.--marsian 07:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, ja:稲荷神 must be included, right? then 妖狐 does not seem to be enough. --marsian 07:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

There are other names in Japanese. Youko is one of them. I don't believe any of the other names encompass all of the related concepts, though, and kitsune is the one used in English (when it's not translated to 'fox spirit' or 'fox demon' or 'goblin fox' or the like). As far as the origins go... I'd thought the same thing, honestly. But I couldn't find a single source for it, and I could for the onomatopoeia. If your linguist contact can cite something printed somewhere, I'd love to see it added to the article, but Nozaki's was the only one I could find that'd be considered a reliable source. Shimeru 07:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Re "Kitsune...are foxes in Japanese folklore": this appears to mislead for reasons already stated above. A-giau 13:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Great!

This is one of the better featured articles I have read for a long time! Most of the recent ones seem to have been gushing ones on pop culture, or something to do with the USA. It makes a change to see something like this.

NB, if anyone is looking for source material, I believe Fortean Times did an article on "fox madness" folklore in Japan late last year. --MacRusgail 11:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

A very minor (albeit somewhat important) edit I did...

...and one I wouldn't even bring up if this wasn't a FA.

I ran across the word aburage (as in fried tofu) in the article. Now, the word is properly transliterated as aburaage, and it's a common misconception that the second a in the middle can be omitted. I moved the target article to aburaage, made "aburage" a redirect and corrected the word in this article. In one spot, that is. There is another spot, but unlike the first one where the word appears in the text of the article, this other one is a direct quote from Hearn. In the spirit of exactness I left this one as is. I hardly believe Hearn would mistype this word, but just to be sure: can someone with a copy of Glimpses of unfamiliar Japan open the book at page 158 and check and confirm or change this? TomorrowTime 16:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The online Gutenberg Project version of Glimpses gives it as "aburage" Frankatca 17:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hm... I still think Hearn was familiar with the language enough not to make such a blunder, so this could be a later bastardisation of what he wrote, but... Should I change the other one back to "aburage" for consistency then? Any thoughts? TomorrowTime 18:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The plot thickens. Hearn's exact spelling is (according to the original Glimpses on Google books) "aburagé". I'll put this (somewhat unorthodox) spelling into the quote and change the other mention of the dish in the article into "aburage" (with a regular e), to avoid confusion. TomorrowTime 21:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that "aburaage" is the proper romanization of the standard Japanese word for the food but some people from some areas call it "aburage". I have four dictionaries and all of them say it is also called aburage. --163.139.215.193 15:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"Moshi-moshi"

I read somewhere that one explanation for Japanese people answering the phone with moshi-moshi is that a kitsune in human form couldn't possibly say those syllables (or could only say the first moshi), and thus saying it on the phone proves one is not a mischevious fox in human form! Am I completely wrong, or could this be added to the article? Dave-ros 18:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Personaly, I think that's iffy info, but if you can find a reliable source, go ahead. TomorrowTime 18:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's some sources, from books that are already in the references list if I remember correctly:

The Fox and the Jewel, p. 12

The Fox's Craft in Japanese Religion and Culture, p. 81

Bless you, google books. Kotengu 小天狗 19:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, that's correct. I recall coming across it in one of the sources. The oddity of speech is referenced in Hearn (p. 161), although it's contradicted in many other folktales. The part about telephones specifically... hrm. I want to say Hamel, but I don't have that one handy any longer to check. Shimeru 19:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Addition: I can confirm the Smyers quote in the hard copy. Shimeru 19:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

As is to be expected for an article when it is featured, the Kitsune article has been the subject of vandalism several times today. (I was the one who reverted the article deletion by Mike10987, though I hadn't signed in yet.) I suggest that we lock the article, so only registered users can edit it, just for today. This should take care of most of the problems, and I doubt that people will try to vandalise the Kitsune article after it is off the main page... Dragonstrider 23:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Abnormal psychology?

Why is this article in Category:Abnormal psychology? - Mark 09:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Because of the usage of kitsunetsuki as the name of an actual ethnic psychosis. It's left over from when that used to be a separate article before it was merged. Shimeru 18:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, right. I thought it was meant to be there, considering that category had been there for at least 6 months. - Mark 01:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Still, as the article is at kitsune now, it doesn't really make sense to have "abnormal psychology" as a category. It seems like the link to psychosis in the kitsune-tsuki section should be sufficient ... CES 03:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably right; the article's changed and expanded a good deal since the merge, and it no longer makes sense to keep the category. I've removed it. Shimeru 20:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

10 tails?

A user has just added a story of a ten-tailed fox to the end of the article. Personaly, I've never heard of this before, and the introduction into the story (Though it's not a Japanesse custom and rarely known of occassionally one might hear of a kitsune Goddess.) makes me somewhat doubtful of the veracity of this. I will not outright delete this part, but I ask the person who added this, or anybody who might have heard of this before to provide references. TomorrowTime 15:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I've heard of the concept online, but it's not a part of folklore, so I've removed it from the article. I believe it originates with Mercedes Lackey's novels, although I could be wrong about that -- I've never read them. Shimeru 18:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Could someone add the IPA or other pronunciation to the lead section for those of us using public computers (and therefore unable to listen to the media file)? Fishal 21:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It's "keet-SOON-eh" or "keet-SU-neh" 65.81.132.252 19:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Common Era

Ought'nt we be using C.E. and B.C.E. in favor of A.D. and B.C.?

No? — Amcaja 22:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

References/Kanji for "ninko"

For example, a ninko is an invisible fox spirit that human beings can only perceive when it possesses them.

After reading this, I tried to look up on what ninko really meant, but could not find anything in neither hiragana nor kanjis for anything resembling this word. Nor did I have any success with the japanese wikipedia. Only obvious reading I can think of is human child, but that doesn't really make any sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rakshasa (talk • contribs) 17:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

The reference is from Hearn (p. 154-155 of the online edition linked in the footnotes); Hall corroborates (p. 139). Neither includes kanji, unfortunately, so I can't give you a direct third-party reference. (I'm sure there is one, but I don't have one available.) I can answer your question, though: the nin is indeed man, and the ko is the same character as kitsune, often seen in names for foxes; for instance, another name for a kitsune is yōko (妖狐). So the kanji you're looking for would be 人狐, read ninko or hito-kitsune, meaning man-fox. Shimeru 20:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

About ninko: It is misstake. There is not ninko in foxes. That mean is ginko 　(銀狐).--124.208.165.11 (talk) 11:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The above commentor is correct. Why are all the really active editors dealing with Japanese topics on Wikipedia anime fanboys with poor actual Japanese? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.24.50.116 (talk) 05:06, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Kitsune noodles

I uploaded a picture of some that I made, roughly according to this recipe. It's below. If the regular editors can think of a way it could be incorporated without disrupting the flow of the article, please do so. (Technically speaking, it's ramen and not the traditional udon, but the point is that it contains the aburaage. -Kieran 20:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

incorrect translation of Kitsunestuki

"Kitsunetsuki (狐憑き or 狐付き; also written kitsune-tsuki) literally means the state of being possessed by a fox." I know for a fact that kitsune means "fox" and tsuki means "moon" so wouldn't that translate to "fox-moon," and not "the state of being possessed by a fox"? Open up any Japanese-English dictionary and you'll find that I'm right. I don't know who came up with that translation, but without evidence to support it I'm pretty sure it's wrong. ARBlackwood 01:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Tsuki may mean moon, but certainly not here. This is 憑き (tsuki), the nominal form of the verb 憑く (tsuku) (also written 付く tsuku) meaning "posses" (see meaning 一②(2)ウ). "tsuki" meaning moon is 月. I suggest a better dictionary. Bendono 01:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of unrelated homophones in Japanese that are written completely differently, much as the chaotic spelling of English at least distinguishes such sets as right / write / rite / wright. Compare Bendono's example 憑き "possession [as in ownership]" vs. 月 "moon", both pronounced "tsuki". See Halpern, Jack (June 23, 2001). "Overview of Japanese Homophony: The Complexities of Japanese Homophones". The CJK Dictionary Institute. Retrieved 4 April 2018..

Unfortunately, dictionary.goo.ne.jp, the target site of Bendono's dictionary links, is all in Japanese except for the English equivalent and occasional citation. None of the pages mention "possess", and the meaning header 一②(2)ウ isn't on any of them. So, not knowing Japanese, I can't find it. --Thnidu (talk) 17:06, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Thnidu. Please realize that you are responding to a comment given 11 years ago. URLs in general are not so stable to last that long without change. You could always try to look in another dictionary. Any paper dictionary should have this common word. Here is the updated link. Let me quote it for you this time: ❷②㋒ （多く「憑く」と書く）魔性のものが人にとりつく。 「キツネが－・いている」. Translation: "(Often written 憑く) for something magical to take over a person. 'The fox is possessed.'". Bendono (talk) 00:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

"(someone is) possessed by a fox"―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

@Bendono and Phoenix7777: Thank you both. While I realized that the issue was probably no longer live on this article, I was thinking of other users reading this talk section, as homophony in Japanese is still an issue in general and will remain so for the foreseeable future. And though the updated link is appropriate, it's no help to me because the page is still entirely in Japanese. I have printed bilingual dictionaries for many languages, but Japanese is not among them. --Thnidu (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

ko-kitsune-maru

its mentioned in the picture of the kitsunesuki but i havent been able to find any other references :/--Hicups0002 03:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

...im not going to get an answer am i....--Hicups0002 03:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably because it's spelled wrong. It should be Kogitsunemaru, where the /k/ voices to [g] due to rendaku. What kind of references do you desire? I suppose the primary reference would be the c. 1537 yōkyoku known as Kokaji (小鍛冶), which relates the tale of how Munechika forged the sword. It appears in quite a bit of literature, as well as dictionaries. Here is one online entry: 小狐丸. There is a little information in the Japanese Wikipedia article on Munechika as well. Bendono 04:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

wow ty ^^ i wish i knew japanese *sigh* i just wanted to know if the story was from a specific book and wether it was a real(like a few hundred pages) story rather than a little

two page thing--Hicups0002 18:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Netsuke

I removed this bit:

Kitsune are frequently depicted in netsuke, small carved objects originally intended to fasten a pouch to the sash of a garment. Netsuke have become a form of art known for their depiction of folklore and noh characters.

It needs a source citation, and it seems out of place, tacked on as an afterthought. — Amcaja (talk) 23:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Examples from anime, manga, and video games

I've removed the kitsune examples drawn from anime, manga, and video games. The list was not part of the original featured version of the article, and it has only grown longer and longer as fans have added their WP:ILIKEIT additions. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If anyone can find a reliable source that discusses one of these characters as a kitsune and how that is pertinent to kitsune in popular fiction in general, feel free to re-add it. — Amcaja (talk) 23:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely. Thank you for removing that fancruft. -Amake 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Kyūbi/Kyuubi no Kitsune

For one, most romaji will tell you to use Kyuubi, and something I am trying to figure out, what is the Kanji for Kyūbi no Kitsune? I had been writing 玖尾丶狐, but after doing some research, I found that 玖尾 reads as gibberish, so what is the actual correct Kanji form of Kyūbi no Kitsune?? KitsuneDragonRA (talk) 22:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

How much research did you do? It's in the few Japanese dictionary that I have at my desk. Also, there is not just kanji for it, but it is made up of kanji and hiragana. It just means "nine-tailed kitsune" as indicated by the Japanese: 九尾の狐. Bendono (talk) 23:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I know what it means, it's on the wiki article even, I just wanted to know how to properly write it down, I don't speak fluent Japanese, nor can i read it fluently, I'm still learning and I was just trying to understand how to write out the word KitsuneDragonRA (talk) 01:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Added to article. Bendono (talk) 01:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This fox is called kyūbiko九尾狐 or 九尾の狐 in Japan. 玖尾 is the Chinese fox. two foxes are same. In this case, 九尾の狐 is right.--124.208.165.11 (talk) 13:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I found some mistakes

I found some simple mistakes. myōb is zenko(善狐). 野狐of yōkai is called yako is not nogitsune. ninko is may be ginko(銀狐). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.208.165.11 (talk) 12:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You may be right, but you need to cite sources that show that these are in fact the correct words.. — Dulcem (talk) 22:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I read the report of Lafcadio about foxes. I went to a library and I understand three.

• That is right for foxes but too old for pronunciation and reading. I tried to test it to a scool teacher and a buddist prist in Japan. Their answer is Yako. My dictionay said that "There are two type to reading of 野狐. Nogitsune is mean foxes of animal. Yako is mean of the spiritual foxes and real foxes". In this case Yako is right.

• myōbu: There is not word of myobu in Lafcadio's report. It may be a joke. There is not any relations myōbu and foxes. In this case Zenko (善狐) is right.

• I found a book of "yōkai no hon" written by Prof. Abe Masaji & Prof. Ishikawa Junichiro in the library and said that.

Kitsune is classified in zenko(善狐) and yako(野狐). Zenko is the foxed are selected by Inari-god and almost of them give blessing for peapole. But yako sometime grow to change yōkai and be mischievous or even malicious.--124.208.165.11 (talk) 00:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. Sounds good! Thanks for your help, and sorry for the earlier reversions. — Dulcem (talk) 22:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome and thank you continuously. And What can I about ninko ? I can not find big mistake in it. But the subject is delicate. Long ago, mental patients of the epilepsy or the split personality were called the kitsunemochi (狐持ち, literally, foxes hosted). Japanese bereaved it is one of the epidemic and afraid. Their family were alienated by the community and were not able to marry freely. And the pathogen was called ninko(人狐). （Some Japanese believe it now.） Or kitsunetsukai (狐使い, literally, foxes use) is the professional of the ninko and use it for invisible weapons. Ninko is the pathogen or the weapon and it can not have any consciousness. I hesitate about including it in foxes. I leave judgment to you.--124.208.165.11 (talk) 05:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

The etymology got lost in a series of vandalism followed by incomplete reverts. Adding it back. Bendono (talk) 12:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

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