Talk:Kjárr

What is the "Caesar" hypothesis?

Setting aside the issue of whether or not it's the "consensus view", is anyone clear on how "Caesar" is supposed to have gotten into ON as "Kiárr"? The quote from Dronke seems to suggest the following: 1) "Caesar" existed in Late Latin with two parallel pronunciations -- the vulgar [käzar] and the formal [kaisar]. 2) The first form made its way into both ON and Anglo-Saxon during the 1st cent. or later. 3) The ON form dropped the [s], and the first vowel mutated to [i]. 4) The more formal Latin form, [kaisar], made its way into German during the 3rd century or earlier, and from there was borrowed into ON a second time (as "keisari"). The first form was preserved in ON as a proper name, and the second as a title.

Classical Latin: "Caesar"	Vulgar Latin: [käzar]	Anglo-Saxon: "Casere" (of the Greeks)
		Old Norse (I): [käRar] > [käarr] > "Kíarr" (of Valland)
	Late Latin: [kaisar]	German: ?	Old Norse (II): "keisari"
			OHG: "keisur"
	Greek: "καισαρ"	Gothic: "kaisar"

What I don't understand is why the first borrowed form is supposed to have changed so extensively in ON, but not the second. According to the theory, did this happen because the more formal form was borrowed later, and ON underwent a regular sound change between the first borrowing and the second? Or is it because the diphthong in the more formal form prevented the [s] from dropping? Or am I missing something completely? —Abou 10:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Abou, although it might be too specialized and too involved for a Wikipedia article, the thesis by Anderson which Berig has referred us to has an extensive literature list where you'll also find sources discussing this issue. See Anderson's Bibliography (Primary Sources) and Bibliography (Secondary Sources). Regarding your question about ANEW above: it refers to De Vries, Jan (1962). Altnordisches etymolgisches Wörterbuch. Second edition, Leiden: Brill, 1962. Pia 05:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Pia! I should have recognized that.

And I agree that this derivation should be presented in the article as the "consensus" view (although I don't find it convincing, myself.) —Abou 07:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The phonetic evolution from Proto-Norse (presumably) *Kezarz > *Keʀarʀ > Kiárr is admittedly odd and puzzles me too. The only way I'm able to make sense of it is through assuming that the first *z > *ʀ was lost due to dissimilation. I wonder if there are any closely comparable cases. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

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Translation mismatch

"Þá skreið Egill at leita Ölrúnar", word for word translated becomes "Then walked Egill to look Ölrúnar". The words "on his snowshoes" can be inferred from an earlier passage, but it's not what's written in the original. The words are informative, but there should be some kind of warning that they cannot be read directly from the text. BFG (talk) 22:33, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Categorization of page

Not everyone keeps track of every artile they edit, I can't even remember editing this page before, all I'm doing right now is trying to clean up the categorization of Julius Caesar related articles. I recategorized it because I didn't think there was any reason to have it in the main Julius Caesar category when it belongs in the "cultural depictions" category, it doesn't relate to his life in any meaningful way, it's just how another culture remebered him and the emperors.★Trekker (talk) 21:15, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I removed the whole category, becuase really, his specific name isn't mentioned once in the page. It could be a cultural interpetation of any one of the many Caesars who held power.★Trekker (talk) 21:19, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@*Treker: Thanks, category maintenance is an important job, and often too underappreciated, so let me start with thanking you for doing an important job. We all make mistakes, so apology accepted. I'm not sure if we've hit the right categorization yet. The crux of the problem is that Kjárr is only related to Caesar, but depending on interpretation is not about Caesar. But I'm gonna think about it for a while. BFG (talk) 21:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah it's not an easy thing to figure out. We can bring it up on the Ancient Greece and Rome Project if you want to. More people might have good input.★Trekker (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@*Treker: I think its worth bringing up, but it should perhaps be asked parallely in the Norse History and culture project? I'm not an expert on Norse mythology, but from my understanding, there are other examples of Norse deities being loosely based on historical figures. BFG (talk) 10:02, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like a very good idea.★Trekker (talk) 14:18, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle: and @*Treker: can we start discussing and not willy nilly change categories around in circles? I don't know which categories are right for Kjárr. Is there a link to the discussion about this? BFG (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• I have removed the article from Category:Julio-Claudian dynasty because there is nothing in the article that links specifically to the dynasty. It may relate to Julius Caesar, or it may relate to any Roman emperor. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:52, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle: I put it back in the category Julius Caesar two times, but ★Trekker raises legitimate issues, so I find it inappropriate that you revert his edits for the 3rd time. We should resolve this issue, rather than engaging in edit warring. First thing is to move this discussion out of my talk page. BFG (talk) 12:07, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, shall we move the discussion to the article talk page? Marcocapelle (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle and *Treker:  Done

Mythological or hero

@Ermenrich: Kjárr appears in Völundarkviða, which if is considered Norse mythology. I'm out on a big limb here, but AFAICR, it's a common trait that German heroes have assumed mythological status in Norse mythology. BFG (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

BFG, most scholars consider Völundarkviða to be heroic legend actually - it's placement in the mythological section of the Edda is likely because Wayland takes on some half-mythical attributes. Compare Rudolf Simek discussing one of the valkyrie figures, Hervör alvitr: both valkyrie-names and also their connexion with the motif of the swan maidens belong to the area of heroic poetry and not mythology" ("Dictionary of Northern Mythology", p. 146) and on Hlaðguðr svanhvít Like her sister, → Hervǫr, Hlaðguðr only occurs in heroic poetry. ("Dictionary of Northern Mythology", p. 151). As both only occur in Völundarkviða, it's obvious he doesn't consider it mythology, so that obviously includes Kjarr as well, who is based on a historical person - the hallmark of heroic legend. I can give more citations if you'd like.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Ermenrich I don't have access to the cited dictionary, but my main concern was that you had taken a one-sided Germanic perspective on this. You clearly demonstrate that this is not the case. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me, that was informative. BFG (talk) 16:41, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

It’s a fair concern: the Norse material has definitely undergone a greater synthesis with mythology than the English or German material. The fact that Simek includes a few figures that he says are heroic in his dictionary are proof enough of that.—Ermenrich (talk) 17:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

This separation of mythology and heroic legend is a bit artificial. They overlap, if there was ever clear a separation between the two begin with.--Berig (talk) 18:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)