Talk:Konstantin Rokossovsky/Archive 1

Archive 1

Steel Teeth

Seriously? Not one mention of his most legendary and identifiable characteristic? Is this Wikipedia or Amateurapedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.207.237 (talk) 16:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Нis most legendary and identifiable characteristic is Operation Bagration, u asshole.

An operation is not a characteristic. If in the future you would please look up the definitions of all the words you say before positing them, while tedious I'm sure, it would save everyone else a lot of time. Many thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.16.24.151 (talk) 06:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Birthplace

Some sources give his birthplace as Warsaw, Poland , for example MSN Encarta:

• Encarta article

Clearly birthplace needs checking. Balcer 00:41, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Clearly it does. What do you think, should we remove it until we figure it out, or gamble that no readers are misinformed in the meantime? It needs a better intro anyway, it just goes straight into early life details without a summary. Everyking 11:44, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Polish wiki and the museum of People's Republic mention Warsaw as his birthplace with all certainity. However, this article on the city of Gdańsk webpage says that according to part of the sources he was born in Warsaw. Halibutt 17:44, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

There are several detailed biographies of Rokossovsky at the Marshals of the Soviet Union website, which say he was born in Russia of a Polish father but grew up in Warsaw. Polish sources cannot be trusted on matters like this. Adam 15:15, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Glad to see Poles have finally taken control of Microsoft's Encarta. It is high time :). More seriously, Rokossovsky is a strongly disliked figure in Poland, and I think most Poles who hold views antagonistic to Russia would probably prefer to deny that he was born in Poland. Anyway, it does not much matter where exactly in the Russian Empire he was born. His claim to Polish nationality was very tenuous, but it was played up when he became Poland's Minister of Defence in the 1950s. Balcer 15:54, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute that. I only dispute his birthplace. Of the available sources, I prefer the ones I used when I wrote the article. Adam 15:59, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Since his father was Polish and he grew up in Warsaw, most sources will probably assume he was born there, but since he lived most of his life in the Soviet Union, I am inclined to believe the Soviet sources cited, which have no reason to lie about this and which are presumably based on information provided by Rokossovsky himself. On the other hand Halibutt says he has seen the birth certificate showing he was born in Warsaw. If this is so it is probably persuasive, although I would like to know the certificate's provenance given that one can think of an obvious motive to falsify this during his time as Polish Defence Minister. Adam 06:29, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Nope, you got me wrong. I have not seen his birth certificate, I merely used this example to try to better understand your logic behind trusting second-hand sources just because they're "not Polish" while apparently disregarding original sources. But it was just an example, a rhetorical figure if you prefer to put it that way. Halibutt 09:19, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

In that case I revert to my previous position that the Soviet sources are more reliable and that he was born in Russia. Adam 09:26, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Adam, you consider SOVIET sources to be reliable, and POlish not? I welcome you to correct articles about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, defense of Russia gainst Polish agression in Polish-Bolshevik 1920/21 war (oops, i meant 1921) etc. As a sidenote, I thought you stopped to have this strange trait of your personality yto judge someone's reliability solely basing on his name ending with "ski" or "cki" Szopen 10:04, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

On this question, yes I do. On others, perhaps not. It depends. Adam 10:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

*gasp* - that you said depends is the only reason I am will not consider you totaly biased. Still, I'd like to hear your explanation on 'why Polish sources can't be trusted on a matter like this'. And plz define a 'matter like this'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:03, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

according to the Polish National Biography he was born in Warsaw. I think wiki en. should stick to that, as I did in wiki.de. The excerpt from the speech in 1949 must be Zymierski's voice, Kostia spoke Polish with a distinct Russian or Border (kresowy) accent. You make no mention of the fact that Kostia came from old Polish nobility and that all his forefathers in the 19th century served in Polish cavalry. I am sorry to say that my German article seeems to be much better.

--Alexvonf 13:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

The Polish wiki has a handwritten questionnaire by Kostantin ,where he stated hew was born in Warsaw.(71.234.9.217 (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC))

northern Poland and Germany

I believe that "northern" was the Soviet Group, but it was stationed in whole Poland and Soviet Zone of Germany. Xx236 11:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Stalin and Rokossovsky, WWII, Moscow

Format

Reformatted article to give more clarity to the WWII stuff because it is getting quite long and is detailed in some places.

Added Historical Details for Context

The article is interesting for the most part, especially for those with background knowledge of Soviet history, World War II, or Roksossovsky and filled with many interesting details but this more or less gets lost in the telling for those less well versed. Rokossovksy is an important figure in Soviet history, and military history, and as such, I filled out a lot of background context on his participation in the Stalingrad campaign and at Kursk.

I hope this makes it more interesting and readable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.147.35 (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on Stalin Bagration comments

Regarding the discussion between Rokossovsky and Stalin whether to use one or two attack-vectors in the strike against the Germans near Moscow, in his book "Stalin", Simon Sebag Montefiore describes a very similar situation taking place two years later, during the planning of the summer-offensive of 1944.

The generals are planning a push near Bobrujsk, central Belarus. Here, Stalin wishes a single attack along one front, with Rokossovsky standing to Stalin, arguing for attacking from two angles at once. Rokossovsky is sent out to rethink several times, but in the end, Stalin gives way, and they settle on a two-pronged attack. The attack takes place on june 23d, 1944, and the Germans are pushed back, losing most of Belarus.

The two incidents are too similar. I believe you and Montefiore are describing the same situation, but with some confusion regarding the details. Montefiore seems to get his version from "Stalin and his generals", by Seweryn Bialer, who in turn uses Rokossovskys memoirs as his source.

Ps. Something went wrong when I added this the first time, and the text was placed under another topic.

Insubordination incident without reference

'

"During his command of the 16th, Rokossovsky brooked the displeasure of higher authorities, and at one point risked being removed and shot. Saved by the intervention of the 16th Army's osobist (NKVD military counterintelligence officer), Rokossovsky later tracked down and recommended the osobist for the Order of the Red Army Banner."

This addition is without references, or enough specifics, imo. Not saying its not true but some reference would be good. Risked being shot for what? Or are we talking about the same incident that is mentioned later in the same text where he went over Zhukov's head? Or are we talking about the earlier incident in the Ukraine at Dubno, where it is pretty clear he risked being shot by taking the intiative to call of orders from Zhukov, when he was in command of the 9th Mechanized Corp?

Also this paragraph doesn't really make so much sense anymore since it enters into a discussion about the 16th Army at Moscow, and then about the above incident and then back Moscow. I'll re-arrange that now.

I think if we don't get a reference for the above incident, we should take it out.

Any objections?

Shtrafbat

"In September 1941 Stalin personally appointed Rokossovsky to the command of 16th Army, which was the first Soviet army group composed entirely of soldiers serving in shtrafbats (Soviet penal battalions); Stalin reportedly viewed Rokossovsky, the former disgraced Gulag inmate who had barely escaped his imprisonment alive, as the perfect candidate to lead the brutal penal units, even going so far as to bemusedly comment on Rokossovsky's missing fingernails (pulled out by the NKVD torturers during his imprisonment) at the meeting where he was assigned his command. Rokossovsky's army was ordered to defend the approaches to Moscow, and was now under the direct command of General Georgy Zhukov, his former subordinate."

Interesting addition, however it should be sourced. Also the wiki article on "Shtrafbats" states that these kinds of formation did not come into use until 1942. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.135.102 (talk) 08:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• I second that. From my own experience (a train door took my nail clean off, without hurting the finger itself), traumatically removed fingernails grow back after a couple of months. It appears that this is a myth and an unneccessary "scary story" about Stalinism. Though horrendous things have happened, and the Army Purge is one of them, there's no need to "support" this sentiment with cheap anecdotes.176.195.61.3 (talk) 02:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• • Hard to say. I have been wondering about the whole issue of the origins of the 16th Army, and its composition. Not to say it was not a penal battalion, but to say, I don't know. Nor is there a good internet source that affirms this.

That said, the way the anecdote is written does not affirm it as "fact" but as a "report", so perhaps it can stay in until someone finds a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.147.144 (talk) 09:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

"his own request"

"Rokossovsky, on his own request..." did NOT WANT to go to Poland. In the "Molotov Remembers: Indside Kremlin Politics" ISBN 1566630274 p.54 it is said " Before appointing Rokossovsky to Poland I [Molotov] went there and told the Poles we would give them one of our experienced generals as minister of defense. And we decided to give them one of the best - Rokossovsky... He wasn't happy about going there, but it was very important for us that he be there..."

He did not volunteer he was ORDERED to be there.

If noone can verify that he volunteered, I suggest we delete the phrase 'his own request' as it is not grounded by any factual comments. In fact, it is quite contrary to that.

Spelling

You know I've always had trouble with the spelling of this name. The spelling always varies on different websites, so could anyone tell me the correct spelling for the name? Many thanks. WinterSpw 03:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• • I can only say that the Russian spelling of his name - Рокоссовский - is transliterated quite straightforward, almost letter for letter, in this article. The actual phonetic pronunciation would be something like "Rakasovskyi" with a short hard "r". If somebody would ask me, I would say that the spelling here is a correct one.

Birthplace

As there is some question mark over his birthplace, it is best to show both. Rokossovsky is also nominally Polish, although Poles normally consider him a Soviet. The German version of Wikipedia clearly states that he was born in Warsaw and is Polish. This also may or may not be correct. Wallie (talk) 21:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Alleged Event

'

During his command of the 16th, Rokossovsky brooked the displeasure of higher authorities, and at one point risked being removed and shot. Saved by the intervention of the 16th Army's osobist (NKVD military counterintelligence officer), Rokossovsky later tracked down and recommended the osobist for the Order of the Red Army Banner.[citation needed]

'

Ok. This has been around for a while, and there is still no citation. It could very well be a badly remembered rendering of any of the events which are cited in this article about Rokossovsky's run ins with authority, and since there is no citation to prove it one way or another, we could just be feeding the historical broken telephone rumour mill. Therefore, I think I will take it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.173.52 (talk) 06:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Pre-emptive Strike

Recently added to the purges section:

apparently due to preparation for Soviet pre-emptive strike against Germany.

"Apparently" affirms the theory to be a fact. It is a theory. I changed text to reflect this fact, and added a counter-posing argument. Not really sure it really belongs here, since prior to Barbarossa, Rokossovsky was a pretty marginal figure in the Russian military hierarchy, and hardly privy to major state secrets such a planned strike against Germany, so he isn't relevant to the issue except in passing. Even if it is an interesting theory, it is hardly widely accepted among historians, and is pretty conjectural -- there is no smoking gun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.173.52 (talk) 07:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Dates of Promotion

The article claims that Rokossovsky was promoted to Lieutenant General on Septemeber 11th, 1941, yet, he commanded the 4th Army at Smolensk in July. This suggests that his promotion would have been in July not September. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.134.144 (talk) 10:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

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B-class review

Not B-class, numerous unreferenced paragraphs. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Languages?

Did Rokossovsky speak Polish, or only Russian? The German Wiki entry on him says he spoke only "broken Polish," and "directed that Polish soldiers should speak only Russian with him."

(Rokossowski hatte mehr als 35 Jahre nicht mehr in Polen gelebt und sprach deswegen nur noch gebrochen Polnisch. Er bestimmte, dass polnische Soldaten nur Russisch mit ihm sprechen sollten.)

It would seem a curious situation for the defense minister of a country to require underlings to speak to him in a foreign (though somewhat related) language. Sca (talk) 19:03, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

PS: In 1945; The War That Never Ended, Gregor Dallas says Rokossovsky "spoke Russian with a Polish accent."

Sca (talk) 15:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Rokossovsky spoke Russian quite well with no significant accent. My grandfather said. There is his photo with Rokokossovsky. Oh, yeah, he hasn't degree I'm sorry. Gregor Dallas knows better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.87.136.210 (talk) 18:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Some sources are claiming he have known Polish perfectly. Maybe he wasn't using it from ideological causes.

He was using Polish with the Polish soldiers and they used Polish with him. Claims that he would force Russian on anyone that would talk to him are strongly anti-Communist propaganda. They want to portray the eastern block/Warsaw pact governments as Russian occupying authorities. I am not a communist or anything, just any random newbie editor, but these claims are insane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:59F4:29F8:A473:729C (talk) 18:20, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I can't believe that anti-communist propaganda has gone so far 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:E9B7:1F28:5456:6D7C (talk) 21:24, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

References

"Graduates of the Leningrad Higher Cavalry School" photo

I think the caption of that photo is not correct. I think Zhukov is the first from the right and Rokossovsky is the fifth. In the photo info appeared a list of names and Zhukov appeared the first of the second line. Can anyone see if caption is correct or not? Thank you. Angonfer9 (talk) 22:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. I corrected it. Thank you. Fruzsimano (talk) 09:33, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

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Bagration

The introduction and the Bagration section both say Bagration was planned by Rokossovsky however I always thought all operations of this size were planned by the General staff ie. Stavka. Or at the least a Stavka representive. could it be possible Rokossovsky was planning just a particular part of it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:E0E7:A70E:E59D:AF23 (talk) 19:59, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

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"As the de facto supreme commander of the Polish Army, he introduced various methods for the suppression of anti-Soviet activity, real or imagined. Among the most notorious were the labour battalions of the army, to which all able-bodied men found socially or politically insecure or guilty of having their families abroad were drafted. It is estimated that roughly 200,000 men were forced to work in these labour camps in hazardous conditions, often in quarries, coal mines, and uranium mines, and 1,000 died in their first days of "labour", while tens of thousands became crippled." This is some kind of complete nonsense based on nothing, he did not create any labor camps, you are probably talking about construction battalions that were in most countries of the Eastern bloc, where the military participated in civil construction of any objects and buildings and nothing common with them, men which found socially or politically insecure or guilty of having their families abroad were drafted did not have , in the same Bulgaria they were created back in 1920 to circumvent the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles, labor battalions were still during the world wars in the countries of Britain, the USA and France 37.54.230.242 (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2022 (UTC)