Talk:Kurna

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2021 and 9 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Niyaz C.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Games

The recent rewrite of this article seems very good, but it has left out one thing from the earlier versions: Some board game boards of historical importance, including Nine men's morris and Alquerque boards, have been found engraved in tiles at a Kurna temple. Gaming sources usually date them to around 1400 BC. I still think this deserves mention in the article, but I don't have precise sources at hand. Can anyone help?--Niels Ø (noe) 06:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

File:Nine mens morris board ramesseum.jpg

Nine men's Morris board, from the base of the 3rd centre right column in the Hypostyle hall of the Ramesseum.

It so happens that I’m in a project that records graffiti of the Ramesseum (~1000). The Nine men's Morris board is indeed found in the Ramesseum. 3 times to be exact. The Alquerque board is not found in the Ramesseum.

I have previously inserted into the Nine men's Morris article that the “temple of Qurna” they mention, is the Ramesseum. But it has been replaced again with the genetic “temple of Qurna”, apparently because the editor is unaware, that the Ramesseum and “temple of Qurna” is the same thing (most times). While cross studying graffiti on other temples in Egypt is an important aspect of the project, it is not done in the same throughout way as the Ramesseum itself, thus I’m unable to press the issue as to whether both articles mentioning a “temple of Qurna” really mean the Ramesseum. It is quite possible that it is the temple of Seti I they have in mind. It is really curious that such an important issues for those boardgames are not throughout sourced in a wiki article.

I’m about to embark on another round of study at Thebes, and I shall make an issue of running down the temple of Seti I for possible Nine men's Morris and Alquerque boards to solve the puzzle, at least to my own satisfactory.

As for the three Nine men's Morris boards in the Ramesseum, I can tell this. They are not on the roof, but in the hypostyle hall. Twice on the column base and once on the column wall. This last one in particularly has brought me much headache as I can simple not understand what it is doing here. I don’t see how it can be used for play on a vertical wall.

Mind you that the final judgment is still ongoing, the one on the wall can creditable be dated to the 19th or 20th century, leaning towards the late 19th century. The two on the bases, which are good playing places, sitting comfortable and all, are much older, and can convincing be argued to be at least from before 1700 (there is a longer explanation to this). To argue for a BC making is hard and in no creditable way can it be done (the opposite in fact). Despite this reserve; It so happens that the so-called footprint graffiti (found on other temples too) are right next to these boards in the Ramesseum. While clearly not made by the same persons, it shows the same level of wear. While argued (from a temple study in Nubian) that these are of foreign import (600 BC forward), e.g. visitors and travellers, it has recently, and semi convincing, been argued (a graffiti study of the Khonsu Temple at Karnak (Precinct of Amun-Re)) that it might be the serving priests themselves who are responsible for these. Our final research will be out, in book form, in not to distant a future, hopefully with more info, - på dansk vel at bemærke :) Twthmoses 10:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting! I remember reading speculations about the timing of the various boards relative to the construction of the temples. There are various possibilities, ranging from that they were made by workmen before or while the temple was built, before the tiles were in place (explaining a vertical position) - to modern graffiti. - Another issue is, how do you know if they are really game boards? Could they be interpreted differently? Some sort of cosmogram, like the board for Cross and cirlce games...?--Niels Ø (noe) 15:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to figures and symbols it is very difficult to interpret with an acceptable degree of certainty the intended meaning of it, much less assigning a date to them.

You bring up an important point, which more than once is up for heated discussions. The road to interpreting old/ancient graffiti is paved with just this one trap-door, namely projecting current ideas, meanings and understandings back to much older objects that may only rudimentary look similar. It is a football field of trap-doors.

The two Nine men's Morris at the bases in the Ramesseum are not made during the construction of the temple, nor are they made within a few centuries of that construction date. Their placement represents an uncanny act of vandalism to a newly (or still relative normal functioning) temple. In a painted temple, even if only semi-functioning, it would be such an in-the-face act that one can scarily believe that even the "director" could get away with it. It would be the equivalent of hacking a board in the centre floor of the British library in plain sight for everybody to see, and not only get away with it; the library would also leave it there. They are both rough made, suggesting someone with only a short stay in the temple, - a traveller, a visitor or similar, maybe an iconoclast taking a break.

If it really is a Nine men's Morris board, that is a good question. With nearly 50% of all graffiti in the Ramesseum being figures and symbols I had to acquaint myself with a large number of subjects just remotely related to any kind of symbolism used in Nubian, Egypt and the Middle East at different timeframes. I have found nothing better, yet –while some religions symbols from Nubian do have a square forms in them and can be quite eccentric. The very placement suggests it is a board. I have played them myself, and there is no better place in the Ramesseum (of what is still standing) to sit down, draw (hack) a board and play. There is also what I have named a “scoreboard”, though it is likely some visitors in the 19th century that have played these older boards and made scoreboard graffiti. The vertical board is connected to this scoreboard graffiti (longer explanation).Twthmoses 15:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Rework

I have reworked the lead and the sections on the individual villages to make the subject clearer and to highlight the architectural importance of New Guorna. However... I am still unclear about some of the facts so please can someone with more knowledge check that the current content is accurate. PeterEastern (talk) 06:31, 31 May 2011 (UTC)