Talk:Kwyet Kinks/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Eurohunter (talk · contribs) 19:30, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Tkbrett: I started review. Comments will be below. Review within 2023 GAN Backlog Drives. Eurohunter (talk) 19:30, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Lead

1. "Kwyet Kinks is the third EP by the English rock" - they are British band, for the same reason there is no Bavarian or Andalusian bands. Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   English is the term used at many FAs, such as the Kinks, the Beatles, Sgt. Pepper, "Hey Jude", "Something", John Lennon, Paul McCartney, and so on. I have not seen British used in the lead of a '60s music article.

   Okey but still they are British band, for the same reason there is no Bavarian or Andalusian bands just German and Spanish. Eurohunter (talk) 13:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   I think I will stick with the format used at those FAs.

   What about this article and facts? Eurohunter (talk) 16:15, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Background and music

1. "The author Richie Unterberger describes the EP as generally folk rock" - author of what? "describes"? now? Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   Unterberger has written a lot of books about '60s music which are listed at his article. Most relevant here would be his two-volume book on the history of folk rock, which came out in 2002 and 2003. I have changed his intro from "the author" to "the commentator".

   Yes but then it's still the queston that he is commentator of? It's still "describes" than "described" Eurohunter (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   I'll change it the clearer "music critic", a description of him I've seen elsewhere. I think "describes" is fine; at an FA like Sgt. Pepper, contemporary commentators are always invoked in the present-tense ("describes") and never the past-tense ("described").

   @Tkbrett: Okay but he "described" it then once, he is not "describes" it now. Eurohunter (talk) 16:14, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   I don't follow. Tkbrett (✉) 00:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

   @Tkbrett: It's like saying I'm writing this review now but no I written it already. Eurohunter (talk) 11:39, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

   @Tkbrett: So what do you think? I mean past tense. Eurohunter (talk) 13:12, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

   I think it is fine as is. This style of writing is used extensively at the FA I mentioned above (e.g. "Everett describes Starr as ..."). A FAC I just reviewed also uses it ("Cross Road Blues", which writes "Author James Perone describes James' adaptation ...").

2. "Shel Talmy produced and Alan MacKenzie likely engineered." - add "EP" at the end? Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   Agreed, done.

3. "Among band biographers, Johnny Rogan writes that the song" - "writes" and the next "and Nick Hasted writes". Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   I'm not sure I follow. What is your suggestion?

   Is that correct? Isn't that the same case for "describes" than "described"? Eurohunter (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   See above.

Release and reception

1. How many weeks it spent on charts? It would be worth to add. Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   I was able to add information regarding Record Mirror, but I am unfortunately coming up empty for Record Retailer. The Kinks biographer Doug Hinman does not say how many weeks it was on that chart, WorldRadioHistory is missing a lot of issues of that magazine and the Official Chart Company also does not collect historical information for EPs, only singles and LPs.

2. Add chart performance of Kinkdom album as it's done for single "A Well Respected Man". Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   Done.

Track listing

1. Add Template:Track listing. Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   The template should only be used in complicated situations (WP:ALBUMSTYLE#Style), which this is not. The track listing template also specifies that its use is optional, so I think that goes beyond the GA criteria. There is more discussion regarding the template at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 66 § Track listing template.

Other

1. There is no introdcution to previous Kinksize Hits and next Dedicated Kinks EPs. Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   I'm not sure what you mean; in both cases, they are introduced as an EP with their year of release.

   It's not in the text. Infobox is just a summary of whole article, so all the information should be in text first. See "Fest i hela huset" for example. Eurohunter (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   I see what you mean now, but I disagree. Template:Infobox album § Chronology talks about the need to put releases in order chronologically, but there is no mention of that information needing to be cited in the body of an article. I'll again point to the featured article for Sgt. Pepper, which gets along fine without citing in the body the relative release dates of A Collection of Beatles Oldies and Magical Mystery Tour.

   @Tkbrett: Don't you think it's natural to mention what was before and after? Eurohunter (talk) 18:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

   Not really; I have not seen it done at an FA before, which is what I use as my guide to article writing.

2. Would you upload and add audio sample to infobox? Choose any song, expect "A Well Respected Man". Audio sample for "A Well Respected Man" could be used in article A Well Respected Man. Eurohunter (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   I do not think there is enough commentary in the article on any given song to provide a non-free media rationale.

   This article is about EP, so sample would be added to illustrate it. Eurohunter (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   I do not think there is enough to provide a non-free media rationale. I do not think it would add much to the article, and it is not a requirement – MOS:ALBUM doesn't mention it – so I think I will pass on adding one.

3. I made some minor fixes. Eurohunter (talk) 18:37, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

   Thanks for the review, Eurohunter. My responses to your comments are above. Tkbrett (✉) 12:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   Eurohunter: More responses above. Tkbrett (✉) 15:35, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

   Eurohunter: Apologies on my slow reply. Responses are above. Tkbrett (✉) 17:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Status query

Eurohunter, Tkbrett, where does this review stand? Can we get it moving again? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

@Eurohunter: any more from you? I'll take this review over if it's not closed soon, Tkbrett. Willbb234 00:18, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

BlueMoonset: There are a few suggestions above with which I disagreed. After responding to those points above, the review unfortunately seems to have reached a standstill. Meantime, I don't have anything else to do above. Tkbrett (✉) 12:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Willbb234: Thanks! Tkbrett (✉) 12:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@Tkbrett: I think everything is okay but "English rock band" is unacceptable till there is no "Bavarian rock band", "Andalusian rock band" etc. Eurohunter (talk) 19:39, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Eurohunter you can choose to ignore my comments or ask them to be addressed. Regardless of what you choose, please move to closing this GAN. Thanks, Willbb234 13:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay Tkbrett, just a few of comments from me:

• Ref 24 - How do we know that the track lengths from the Kinda Kinks album is the same as the track lengths from the Kwyet Kinks EP? Is there a better source we can use? Perhaps one that specifically refers to Kwyet Kinks would do the trick, or you could note that the track lengths are taken from the songs as they appear in the Kinda Kinks album.

• The original EP did not include track lengths on its face label. The AllMusic source states that the tracks on the 2011 Deluxe Edition of Kinda Kinks are pulled from the Kwyet Kinks EP. I have reworded the note to clarify this.

• Remove duplicate wikilinks such as to Ray Davies, Dave Davies, Reprise Records etc. I think it's fine if all the wikilinks stay in the personnel section.

• The only duplicates I see for Ray and Dave are in the track listing section, but I believe that is correct per WP:TRACKLIST, which says "The standard method of attributing writers is to write (and link) the full name the first time it appears, and then just give the last name". This is done at the FA for Sgt. Pepper, where George Harrison is linked again even though his name is linked earlier in the article. Are there any other duplicate links I am missing?

• I think I was referring to wikilinks repeated in the body which were already included in the lede. I am unsure on the guidelines about this, but MOS:REPEATLINK seems to suggest that wikilinks in the lede shouldn't be repeated in the body. It doesn't matter either way, it's just what you think is best. Willbb234 14:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

• Why aren't US chart records listed in the Charts section?

• This EP only came out in the UK. EPs were not popular in the US at that time, so the record label added more tracks and released it there as an LP, Kinkdom.

• The Kinks recorded all four of its songs at Pye Studios in London around 5 August 1965, except for "Wait Till the Summer Comes Along" which was done on 3 May perhaps switch this so it's chronological.

• Done.

That's it from me. Ping me when you've replied to/addressed these comments. Cheers, Willbb234 17:37, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Willbb234, points are addressed above. Tkbrett (✉) 12:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

@Willbb234 @Tkbrett @Eurohunter @BlueMoonset It's been well over a month since the last activity here. Where is this going? RoySmith (talk) 22:56, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: I've tried talking to Eurohunter about their numerous unfinished GA reviews on their talk page, but it's like talking to a brick wall. They have assured me on my talk page that they will get to it, but it's clear that this is not happening. Willbb234 23:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

RoySmith, I am sorry, I see I forgot to respond to the last round of points which came from Willbb234. I will do that.

Eurohunter is still the one in control of the review, however, and I still disagree with the last suggestion made by that editor – changing "English rock band" to "British" – something which has been a point of contention since the start of the review. I do not think this relates to the good article criteria, as even FAs use "English". Looking at another open GAN, I think I am not the only editor who has been having issues. Tkbrett (✉) 12:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

As a drive-by comment, the lead is the only place the "English" description appears. The lead should just be summarizing what's in the main body of the article. So my suggestion is to add to the body that they're an English rock band, along with a WP:RS which supports that, i.e. uses that exact language to describe them. If all (or even most) of the RS call them English, then that's what we should do as well. RoySmith (talk) 14:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

@Eurohunter are you going to be able to finish this review? RoySmith (talk) 23:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: There is no country such as England or Bavaria at international level. There are only the United Kingdom, France, Germany etc. So if there will be reliabe source describing band as "Bavarian" it will be Bavarian or German band? The answer looks abvios for me. Eurohunter (talk) 17:35, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe the suggestion being made is beyond the Good Article criteria, but I also think it is just flat out wrong. "English" is used in the first lines of many FA leads to describe artists, and that is often without it needing it to be cited in the body: The Kinks, Sgt. Pepper, Aftermath, The Dark Side of the Moon, OK Computer, "To Be Loved", This Year's Model, "The Long and Winding Road", "Hey Jude", "Something", the Beatles, "I've Just Seen a Face", "Village Green", David Bowie, Hunky Dory, Low, and on and on. I have had trouble finding music-related FAs which use "British". "Imagine" does, but on closer inspection, an IP editor changed that a few months ago. I am not going to change it. If Eurohunter still insists on this, I would rather simply withdraw the nomination. Tkbrett (✉) 19:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Tkbrett: I don't agree with using term "English band" but the article should pass so I will conclude result later. Eurohunter (talk) 11:47, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary

Article met the requirements. Eurohunter (talk) 16:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)