Talk:L'amour est bleu

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

• http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=9:difwxqw5ldhe~T51

--CactusBot (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

disambig needed

I came to Wikipedia to see if I could find an article on the album Love is Blue by Jackie Allen[1]. I'm not too upset that an article doesn't exist (yet), but found it odd that "Love is Blue" redirects here, while the albums by The Dells and Johnny Mathis have qualifiers. I'm not familiar enough with any of these 3 works to say if any of them deserve to be the main article, I think making Love is Blue a disambig page would be the best idea, or if someone can come up with a reason for one of these 3 to be the main article, then add a link to a disambig page to that one. Either way would be better than the state it's in now.

I'll be away from Wikipedia for a few days, but if nobody's made the edits yet when I return, and if there's no objections, I'll do so myself. - 75.156.132.101 (talk) 09:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

It's quite simple, really. "Love is Blue" is a song. Both Mathis's and the Dells's albums are named for the song, which is on them both. That makes the song the primary topic. I'm not sure why Allen's album is called Love is Blue, but I would be amazed if the song title had not influenced it somehow. At any rate, since the Jackie Allen article is a stub about a football player, it would make no sense to move Love is Blue just for her. Scolaire (talk) 10:58, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting the article be moved to anything related to Allen (I'm aware that she's a minor figure in music by Wikipedia's standards); when I submitted my original comments I was unaware that the song in this article is the actual song that was covered on the albums in question, and I thought a disambig page would be a good idea to sort out the whole thing. Now I still think a disambig page would be a good idea, but now I think it should be linked to from the top of this article, rather than moving this one as I had originally thought.

So, my new plan is to create a disambig page, link to it at the top of this article, and change the qualifier on The Dells' album to say "The Dells' album" (or something similar, suggestions?), to further differentiate it from other albums of the same name. I will also do a sweep of the "What links here" for each of the articles in question and make sure that stays tidy (I once did a similar overhaul of Tom Wilson, and it seemed to turn out well). - 75.156.132.101 (talk) 18:41, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

When I said "move Love is Blue" I meant move to a disambiguation page, not move to a Jackie Allen album page :-)

What you've done is fine, but I've done a few tweaks - moving the Dells album article, removing the duplicate Claudine Longet entry - to get rid of the redlinks. Scolaire (talk) 10:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Claim about Billboard Hot 100 disputed

At the end of the first paragraph, Paul Mauriat's instrumental version is noted as being the only single by a French artist to reach #1 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. According to the Wikipedia entry for The Singing Nun's Dominique, that song reached #1 on the Hot 100 in 1963/54.

According to The Singing Nun's article, she was Belgian, not French. Actually, it says that in the first sentence of the Dominique article as well. Scolaire (talk) 13:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

What about Daft Punk's "Get Lucky," which hit #1 in 2013? Does the "featuring Pharrell Williams" credit on that one complicate matters? Adamnvillani (talk) 09:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 5 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

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L'amour est bleu → Love Is Blue – WP:COMMONNAME states that the English Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)."

A Google search for English language results returns only 51k results for "L'amour est bleu" Mauriat but over 280k for "Love Is Blue" Mauriat, indicating that most reliable English language sources use the English title. The U.S. Billboard Hot 100 chart uses "Love Is Blue (L'amour est bleu)", and the UK Singles Chart uses the same two-language format. The 2003 book The Billboard Book of Number One Hits uses the English title most of the time. A front-page story from the February 17, 1968 Billboard magazine in America mentions "Love Is Blue" without the French name.

This song is more widely known around the world by its English title, because Paul Mauriat's instrumental version marketed with the English title made the music charts not just in Europe but also the U.S. The original version with the French title and lyrics was popular only in Europe.

Because this song is more widely known in the English-speaking world as "Love Is Blue" I propose using that title. In contrast, the article about the German language song "99 Luftballons" retains the German title, because the German version was more popular around the world (including the US) than the English remake. Arbor to SJ (talk) 06:36, 5 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 20:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. — Newslinger talk 05:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a Eurovision Song Contest entry, and Eurovision songs by convention are given their original names. "Ein bißchen Frieden" was a No. 1 hit in the UK and Ireland under the name "A Little Peace", but that fact is not even mentioned in the article, much less used as the article title. I created this article back in 2006 (when I was a newbie) as "Love is Blue". It was moved in 2008 by Sims2aholic8 and I was perfectly happy with the move. By the way, "99 Red Balloons" was No. 1 in the UK, Ireland and Canada, and No. 3 in South Africa, where listeners didn't even know the German title, so to say "99 Luftballons" was more popular "around the world (including the US)" is a bit disingenuous. Scolaire (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
  • In the English-speaking world, "99 Luftballons" charted in German in Australia (#1), New Zealand (#1), and the U.S. (#2). The German version of the song also charted in multiple other non-German-speaking countries worldwide. In contrast, the English version charted in only four countries, all of which are English speaking (Canada, Ireland, South Africa, and the UK). That's where I based my argument about "99 Luftballons" being more popular in German than English, in contrast to "Love Is Blue" vs. "L'amour est bleu". Arbor to SJ (talk) 04:42, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Eurovision songs by convention are given their original names. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

See WP:OFFICIAL and WP:COMMONNAME. Those override "convention", and Wikipedia serves a worldwide not just European audience. Arbor to SJ (talk) 04:42, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

• Support per WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. The opposes mention a convention for Eurovision Songs, but I don't think an unwritten convention that has never been discussed (that I am aware of) should be able to override our standard article naming policies. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support per detailed nomination and per Rreagan007. In English Wikipedia, an established English-language title of a film, book, song, artwork, etc, regardless of the work's original title, automatically takes priority over titles in other languages. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:31, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Correct, examples:

• The Marriage of Figaro (not the Italian Le nozze di Figaro)
• The Hunchback of Notre-Dame (not the French Notre-Dame de Paris)
• Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (not the romanized Wo hu cang long for Chinese <<臥虎藏龍>>)
• Servant of the People (not the romanized Sluha Narodu for Слуга народу)

However, for instances when there are no established English-language titles, the English Wikipedia uses the foreign title. A front page featured article from October 2018 was for the Hindi-language film Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge, because even English-language sources use that title.

This song is slightly more complicated, because its original version was a French-language song. The English title only came into existence after Paul Mauriat composed an instrumental version, which became popular around the world in contrast to the original French version popular only in Europe.

Meanwhile, the article "99 Luftballons" retains the German title likely due to the German version being popular in more countries worldwide than the English version "99 Red Balloons". Arbor to SJ (talk) 06:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

There are, however, instances when WP:LOCALCONSENSUS creates exceptions. In a rare departure from English Wikipedia's adherence to the titles used by The Criterion Collection, Band of Outsiders, an established title in the English-speaking world for Bande à part (film), was decisively rejected in favor of the original French title at the lengthy 2012 Talk:Bande à part (film)#Requested move. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Arbor to SJ contradicts himself. He says agrees with Roman Spinner, who says In English Wikipedia, an established English-language title of a film, book, song, artwork, etc, regardless of the work's original title, automatically takes priority over titles in other languages (emphasis added), and then says that "99 Luftballons" is an acceptable title regardless of the fact that there is an established English-language title, "99 Red Balloons", which is popular in more English-speaking countries worldwide than the original. It just so happens that one of the English-speaking countries where the German title is popular is the United States. If "99 Luftballons" and Bande à part can retain their original titles due to local consensus or convention, there is no reason why "L'amour est bleu" should not. Scolaire (talk) 11:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

A misunderstanding has arisen in that my posting of 23:31, 15 June 2019, above, has become conflated with the subsequent posting submitted by Arbor to SJ at 06:11, 16 June 2019. It was I, not Arbor to SJ, who made the comments quoted in green, while it was Arbor to SJ. not I, who mentioned "99 Luftballons" / "99 Red Balloons", thus there is no direct contradiction. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Apologies. Now fixed. However, he began his post by saying "Correct", so there is still a direct contradiction. Scolaire (talk) 19:01, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, as a notable European song with a French flavour, following Scolaire's reasoning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

By that reasoning, the The Marriage of Figaro article should be Le nozze di Figaro, beause it's a "notable European opera with Italian flavour". Similarly, The Hunchback of Notre-Dame would be Notre-Dame de Paris instead of its established English title. Arbor to SJ (talk) 19:37, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

You are right, that Le nozze di Figaro should be the title, but for a different reason: because that is what the opera houses of the world perform, New York, Berlin, Riga ... You could go and suggest the change. (I won't because I still hurt from the The Flying Dutchman discussion.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• I have notified WikiProject Eurovision. Scolaire (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. In the comments above and on my internet search, I don't see that the English-titled instrumental was popular in more countries compared to the original French title. And while I was checking for chart positions, which I couldn't vividly find, I got to this page which shows a bunch of records (both 1967 and 1968 Mauriat versions), almost all of them, also presenting the French title (alongside, in parenthesis or below) to the English title: [2] As also been written above about Billboard's "Love is blue" (l'amour est blue"). So I definitely oppose to only present the English title, without the French for the aticle's title. I understand the rule for English preference in case of more worldwide notability and popularity, which is also what the argument above vastly relies on. Apart of the success of "Love is Blue" in 2 English countries - (again as Love is blue/L'amour est Blue), I don't see that the original French sung by Vicky was only successful in Europe (I think it also had big success in Japan), as well as I don't see neither on the internet nor the Wikipedia article, that the instrumental "Love is blue" was successful in any other, let alone, more countries, as a more "worldwide" phenomena. Also, as the original was performed in Eurovision, it got exposure to some dozens of millions of viewers from at least 17 competing countries + few more that broadcast the contest. I also go with Greda on the French Flavour as in that also the English instrumental is by a French artist, and again - presenting the French title too. I also looked at google and saw 96,200 results when typing the French title along with "Mauriat": [3]; let alone 4,800,000 results for the French title with typing "Vicky": [4], and 751,000 results for the English title with "Mauriat": [5]. So I don't see the current situation as warranting favouring the English title, to deviate from the original French one. אומנות (talk) 08:30, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

An addition - when I search via "Google USA" - 914,000 for the English with Mauriat: [6]; and mostly 867,000 for the French, with Vicky, almost as much as for the first: [7]. And still a respectful 92,200 for the French with Mauriat [8].אומנות (talk) 08:48, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

One more, from further comparisons above, such as English titles for Italian operas: Even those situations deal with an English title for 1 piece of art. These situation is about 2 different pieces - Only the cover is given a dominant-English title (and which still also presents the French title), and the original French version given the sole French title. The article by nature stems from describing the original: it opens with "lyrics by..." in reference to the original French lyrics, and to Vicky's singing version. Also chronologically by chapters, it refers to Eurovision then approaches the cover. So this Cover-based-on-original thing is something I wanted to stress with differentiation from some of the other examples. אומנות (talk) 12:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. "L'amour est bleu" is the original song, with the other being just a cover version. As the cover version is not significantly more notable than the original (both are very well known and charted in several countries), I find going with the original title the most sensible choice. YuckieDuck (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Previous discussions regarding English titles

For those interested in WP:USEENGLISH arguments concerning titles of works, here are a few previous discussions:

• Talk:Hoćemo gusle#Requested move (January 2009)
• Talk:Cousin Bette#Page title - English or French? (June 2010)
• Talk:Bande à part (film)#Requested move (January 2012)
• Talk:Sette note in nero#Italian titles vs English titles (March 2013)
• Talk:Nude per l'assassino#Requested move (July 2013)
• Talk:Il coltello di ghiaccio#Requested move 8 July 2016
• Talk:The Bloodstained Butterfly#Requested move 28 February 2019
• Talk:Der geteilte Himmel#Requested move 27 March 2019
• Talk:Divided Heaven (film)#Requested move 2 May 2019. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Article title

@Amakuru: Can you please explain your reasoning behind the consistent reversion of page moves for this article? Wikipedia's Manual of Style for Manual of Style/France- and French-related articles, and specifically the section regarding capitalisation, explicitly states that for consistency the method of capitalisation used by l'Imprimerie nationale should be used for capitalising works of art with French titles. In the case of this article, the specific rule that is invoked states if this initial word is a definite article (le, la, les, l'), both the article and its noun (and any modifier between the article and the noun) are capitalized; this means that "L'Amour est bleu", with the capitalised A on Amour, should be the correct title of this work given that this is the first noun in the title. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 11:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Sims2aholic8: the overwhelming majority of sources title it L'amour est bleu, as indicated by ngrams in both English and French: [9][10] and that has been the title on Wikipedia for years. Furthermore, the French Wikipedia also has it at fr:L'amour est bleu, not to mention German, Italian, Spanish and probably others too. I don't know about the rules you mention, my French expertise doesn't extend to that, but clearly they aren't being followed in this case, and Wikipedia does not blindly follow style guidelines against clear common usage. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 12:18, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Amakuru: A quick Google search on my side shows a wide array of different capitalisation methods across various websites, including "L'amour est bleu", "L'Amour Est Bleu", "L'amour Est Bleu". I can't speak for what goes on on other Wikipedia sites, but it shouldn't be a controversial thing to follow English Wikipedia's own style guidance when choosing how to capitalise a work of art. There are lots of articles on Wikipedia whose titles don't follow the most popular stylistic choice elsewhere on the internet, whether that's a difference in capitalisation or character replacement, because Wikipedia editors have collectively decided to follow a set of rules on article titles for consistency. Just as English titles have rules regarding title capitalisation the same should be true for works in other languages when there is an agreed upon approach. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• "In the case of this article, the specific rule that is invoked states if this initial word is a definite article (le, la, les, l'), both the article and its noun (and any modifier between the article and the noun) are capitalized"
  — That's incorrect. If a title is a sentence, it is written in sentence case. So it's "L'Amour", "La Petite Maison dans la prairie", "Petite Leçon d'amour", "Le Monde connu", "Petite Fille", "La Petite Fille aux allumettes", "La Ville abandonnée", "La Ville et les Chiens", "Amour, Mariage et Petits Tracas", "L'Amour fou", "L'Amour bleu", but "L'amour est bleu", "Le monde ne suffit pas", "Mon amour est près de toi", "La ville est tranquille", "Mon petit doigt m'a dit", etc. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
• @Sims2aholic8: I believe your rule works only for titles like "Object", "The Object", "Red Object", "The Red Object", "The Object 1, the Object 2", "Object, Object, Object, and Object" ("The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"). Cause it is definitely "Mon père, ce héros", "Mon amour, mon ami". --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)