Talk:La Grande Illusion

Problems with this article

This article seems to have many statements requiring proof that are not supported by citation, such as the aim of the movie, Renoir's intentions, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.81.180 (talk) 05:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

For underlining the statement given in 4.2 "Prejudice" and Renoirs usage of Rosenthal as kind of a metaphor, see e.g. Martin O'Shaughnessy: La Grande Illusion: French Film Guide, London/ New York 2009, p. 107f. He also refers to other authors. Hope that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.50.237.110 (talk) 20:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Unsure if this complaint has been dealt with, but I found the article very satisfactory. The plot summary in particular is concise and very well written. Thanks to all involved. Rollo (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:47, 18 March 2012 (UTC).

The article seems to contradict the two lectures contained on the StudioCanal blu-ray La Grande Illusion, these being the "Introduction" by Ginette Vincendeau and "John Truby Talks About La Grande Illusion" by John Truby.

Summarizing what I gathered from Vincendeau and Truby lectures:

- Renoir's main theme is that social class creates closer connections and greater mutual sympathy between people than nationality does.

- And Renoir presents the lower class characters of Germany and France sharing similar jokes, concerns, problems and fancies. He presents lower and middle class people and the nouveau riche from border areas/disputed territories who can bridge the French/German language barrier.

- Renior presents the aristocratic characters of France and Germany speaking to each other in English, already at this time the "linga franca" (common language) of educated people. As with the other classes, aristocrats are portrayed as having more in common with each other than their countrymen.

I can also say that the film's main two characters are middle class and nouveau riche. If I had only read the current Wikipedia article I think I'd be left thinking the main characters are aristocrats.

As for criticism of the existing wikipedia article's lack of citations: Could it be that unlike a book, looking at a normal length film requires little enough effort that a film often provides its own citations?

However, I'm neither a literature nor a film expert or student. So I am only going to put this out there for the experts to consider. If you've seen the film and you're somewhat of an expert in such matters, please consider my comments here when considering updating the article. Thanks. 50.71.210.133 (talk) 03:14, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

References

Title of the film (RE: Translation)

I put the literal translation of the title, back at the foot of the article. Is there any dispute the statement is accurate? I agree that the commonly used release title scans better. Ellsworth 16:50, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In that case shouldn't the article page be moved to Grand Illusion since this is the English wikipedia? Ellsworth 14:44, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would have no problem with that. --ExplorerCDT 18:51, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I made a request to move it. Ellsworth

I believe the film has been released at various time's with and without the "the". When I first saw it (about 30 years ago) it was "The Grand Illusion". I don't think it really matters which entry is used if the other is re-directed. I'd vote for leaving it with the "the", because I think that is where more people would look for it.

According to the Imdb:

Also Known As: Grand Illusion, The (1938) (USA)

That might be the original release name in the US. There is a bigger issue, which I'd encourage others to weigh in. There doesn't seem to be consistancy about how the names of foreign films are handled in Wikipedia. Many if not most of the French films in Wikipedia are listed by their FRENCH names, not the English. This was discussed a bit at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style--Archive5. Policy seems to be that names should be the most common English usage (even if not technically correct). There didn't seem to be consensus on how names should be handled within articles. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of others. --Samuel Wantman 22:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Requested move 1

(from WP:RM)

The Grand Illusion (movie) → Grand Illusion

• Grand Illusion, the English title of the film, is much more familiar to English-speaking readers. Have discussed this on the talk page Ellsworth 19:09, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Agreed. --ExplorerCDT 14:51, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Comment: Why this has waited for 13 days is beyond me, there are no objections. --ExplorerCDT 19:14, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• La Grande Illusion would seem to be more obvious (William M. Connolley 20:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC))
  • Comment: Not for the English language article. For the French version of the article (which i'm slowly translating) sure, but today all except one brief mention in 1938 the film has been marketed to the English-speaking world as Grand Illusion, and that's how it's known and referenced today, in English. —ExplorerCDT 22:38, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Comment:The above comments date from 2004. It is now 2012.

- Amazon.com are now marketing the film as "La Grande Illusion."

- Studio Canal probably has the best available restoration and it is marketing as "La Grande Illusion".

- Turner Classic Movies has it as (sic) "Grand Illusion (1937) a.k.a. 'La gran ilusión'"

- The Criterion Collection is marketing it as "Grand Illusion"

50.71.210.133 (talk) 03:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Producer Credit

IMDB list the Producers as Albert Pinkovitch and Frank Rollmer though both uncredited. Raymond Blondy is listed in the credits as Production Manager. Any advice on who to single out for the infobox, or is it fine as it is?

The Great Escape trivia

There was no real need to be so rude in your edit summary User:ExplorerCDT. I have been enjoying and learning about film for more than 40 years and will be happy to put my knowledge up against anyone, but that doesn't mean that there isn't always more to learn. In going through the edit history both of these pieces of trivia are unsourced which is against wikipolicy. I have seen many documentaries on all three films mentioned. While the edit about Casablanca is a possibility if you can provide a source I would be happy to read it and learn from it. But the edit about The Great Escape (on which I have also seen several documentaries about the real events of the camp including the one from last year where they found a hatch and one of the forged rubber stamps at a recent archeological dig at the site) and I have never heard of anyone saying that if they hadn't seen Grand Illusion they never would have thought to dig a tunnel. This form of escape goes back much farther than WWI. Once again if you can point me to a source where this is mentioned I will be happy to learn from it. I am, also, not going to start an edit war over this and offer my apologies for offending you with my edit but you sould not jump to conclusions about other editors knowledge. MarnetteD | Talk 04:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

This question about the movie is so obvious to modern viewers it needs to be addressed in the article.

I think the proper question is not, whether anyone has said that "if they hadn't seen Grand Illusion they never would have thought to dig a tunnel", but whether Squadron Leader Roger Joyce Bushell or anyone else who contributed to the escape saw the film and was inspired by it.

There are amazing similarities in techniques used between the film "La Grande Illusion", the movie "The Great Escape", and what turned up at the archaeological digs of Stalag Luft III.

It is true that prison camp escapes go back a long way in history, but La Grande Illusion portrayed a particular sort of escape that had no precedent.

Shoring up tunnels with wood is a common enough thing. But you have the use of tins for ventilation pipe, the alarm, the distribution of waste soil.

Undoubtedly, if Jean Renoir had patented his escape techniques he could have successfully sued the men in Stalag Luft III for patent infringement. Of course that does not 100% prove the men of Stalag Luft III used techniques inspired Renoir's film. It is not rare for two people to come up with the same invention, so only a quote prove inspiration.

Remember, it is not did the leader of the great escape from Stalag Luft III copy techniques, but did the men implementing the plan, the tunnelers, copy the techniques.

Of course in the social sciences there is almost never 100% proof of anything.

If it was true that Grande Illusion inspired the techniques used who would come forward to say so?

So I think it is fair to say that and the article should say:

- La Grande Illusion inspired the movie The Great Escape.

- Modern viewers of the La Grande Illusion speculate that it inspired the techniques used in the Great Escape from Stalag Luft III that they have seen dramatized in the movie "The Great Escape".

- There are no quotes from the prisoners involved in creating the escape at Stalag Luft III to substantiate a connection between the actual escape and the film Grande Illusion.

50.71.210.133 (talk) 04:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

If, as I understand, La grande illusion disappeared (even in reprint) for some years and was not to be seen at all for a few decades until 1958 (I'm confused on this point), then perhaps they weren't but still what's the point... Schissel | Sound the Note! 10:42, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 06:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Grand Illusion (film) → La Grande Illusion — Per this policy... If the film has been released under different titles within the English speaking world - if for example, some English-speaking countries prefer to use the native title, or if different translations are used in different countries - use the most common title throughout. The film was released in the UK with the original title. —Reginmund 23:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support - as nominator. Reginmund 23:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose The English title is more common among English speaking countries and preferred by the main policy WP:UE. Doctor Sunshine talk 17:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
• OpposeVariations of this have been discussed on the film projects talk page. This film is known by this name in so many areas including scholarly texts, top 100 lists of world films and on and on. This is the English language wikipedia and this is the name that gets typed into the search engine by those trying to find this page. MarnetteD | Talk 15:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

An advanced Google search for the English language pages:

• Renoir "Grand Illusion" -wikipedia — 55,900 hits
• Renoir "La Grande Illusion" -wikipedia — 29,600 hits

Doctor Sunshine talk 17:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• That isn't the point. If it says that if the film was released under another title in the Anglosphere, the French title shoould be retained. We have specific guidelines for films. Reginmund 14:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
  • That was revised be kept in line with WP:UE per the discussion at WP:FILM. You'll note in the segment you've quoted it says the "most common" title should be used and not the "native" or "original language" title. Doctor Sunshine talk 15:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Fair use rationale for Image:292223.1020.A.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Conformed spelling of de Boeldieu

There was an inconsistency in the spelling of de Boeldieu within the article, so I conformed it. I made it match IMDB. Some of the spellings in the article had a dieresis (tréma), like this: de Boëldieu. This seems out of keeping with the pronunciation in the film. In French, a dieresis indicates that the vowel is emphasized rather than elided into a single syllable or a dipthong: Note the French word Noël (meaning Christmas). I don't hear them calling the captain "duh bo-ell-dyuh" in the film. They seem to say, "duh buhl-dyuh, as one would pronounce it without a dieresis. Softlavender (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Plot Point

Just corrected plot point re the diversionary music @ the castle/prison. De Boeldieu originates the idea after watching the guards respond to a fire set by Russian prisoners. Watched the movie an hour ago. Tapered (talk) 00:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

---

Grand Illusion (film) → La Grande Illusion – La Grande Illusion is the UK and Canada title, and also the title currently used in the US. The US appears to be the only country to have used the title Grand Illusion, and is now using the original French title La Grande Illusion (like the rest of the English-speaking world) so this would seem to be a pretty clear-cut move. Also, "grande illusion" renoir[1] gets many more google hits than "grand illusion" renoir[2]. Relisted. Favonian (talk) 18:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC). Film Fan (talk) 16:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UE. This also sounds to be a more stylistic preference. The English title is used throughout by Anglophone cinematic scholars. Thus it is an acceptable form, and just because other anglophone countries use otherwise seems arbitrary rationale to move the page. The same reason could be justified to keep it as is. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 04:24, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • USA is the only country to have used Grand Illusion, and it is now on home video in the US under the title La Grande Illusion. WP:CCC. Outdated articles are hardly a reason to ignore the Wikipedia guidelines. Film Fan (talk) 10:20, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
    • "USA is the only country to have used Grand Illusion" - This is blatantly incorrect as there is no "official" designated use by country. Total Film uses the English language title and they are a British magazine[3]. The DVD release does not set the standard for a particular country's use and the English title is not at all ambiguous throughout the Anglosphere. I'm not citing any "outdated articles", whatever you mean by that. Not to mention, I actually cited a WP guideline and you didn't, so it is ironic for you to invoke the notion that I am somehow ignoring them. Plenty of scholarly sources use the English title, and as I said previously, the preference for the French title in English can only otherwise be arbitrary. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
      • The UK title is exclusively La Grande Illusion and has never been Grand Illusion. Total Film clearly has an old page for its American readers, as it has many. It also has a page for its UK users[4] and the reviews on the site are also titled La Grande Illusion[5][6]. Grand Illusion is exclusively American. Also, the fact that it is currently distributed as La Grande Illusion in the US is an indicator that this is currently the preferred title in the US and the title most recognized by the US public. Also, referring again to my original argument, "grande illusion" renoir[7] gets many more google hits than "grand illusion" renoir[8]. There is not a single English-speaking country that currently distributes the film as Grand Illusion. You cannot ignore these facts. Film Fan (talk) 00:32, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
        • What do you mean "clearly"? It says the UK release date. You're assuming that there is an official title which there isn't. The film has been distributed by its English title in the US. That's not only evidenced by its region 1 DVD release but it's recent re-release and various film posters. The point being that because the English title is acceptable and is currently used by the article, attempting to change it is an arbitrary preference. Maybe your argument about distribution in the US would rebuke the acceptability of the current title if it weren't wrong. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 02:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
          • The official UK title is La Grande Illusion[9]. Any Brit familiar with the film knows this, and you will not find a shred of evidence to the contrary. But official titles are irrelevant, anyway. It's consensus titles that matter. Are you not familiar with the Wikipedia guidelines? The current R1 release is called La Grande Illusion[10], not Grand Illusion. Read my previous reply. Film Fan (talk) 11:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
            • There is no "official title" unless the original distributors commissioned by the original studio execs say so. The titles you are beckoning to are re-releases, most of which on DVD and VHS. That is not an official title. I already showed you evidence that the film has been known by its English title in the UK and being a limey myself, I have known it by it's English title so please refrain from speaking for me. That doesn't even matter because given that there are two acceptable forms in English either one can be used. You are assuming that there is only one region 1 release which is obviously wrong. The Criterion Collection released the film under its English title. There is no standard title within each country as evidenced by the different uses displayed in both the US and the UK. But that is still besides the point. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the English title is an acceptable form as displayed by various releases and posters. Therefore, attempting to change it to an alternative title can only be justified by arbitrary and preferential grounds which is not rationale to change a title based on Wikipedia's guidelines. If you're asking me if I am familiar with Wikipedia's guidelines, do bother to cite which one you are referring to. Otherwise, I can't assume you're exactly familiar with them either. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 20:12, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
              • The official UK title is La Grande Illusion and it has never been known as Grand Illusion in the UK, and Brits never call themselves "limeys". Grand Illusion was clearly the US consensus title in the 90s when Criterion released it, but that was the 90s (times have changed; check the Google hits), and that is also ignoring the fact that the USA is but one of the English-speaking countries. You are flat-out ignoring my evidence and the Wikipedia guidelines. WP:NCF. Film Fan (talk) 21:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
                • I'll ignore your hegemonic presumption that you know what every Briton does in any particular situation, given that I am one myself. You still don't seem to get that there is no "official title" in the UK, unless the distributor is directly commissioned by the studio. So I will no longer bother to give your persistent false claim the benefit of the doubt. You also keep pointing out that the US is the only anglophonic country that uses this form as if it is any rationale, which it isn't. So, if your entire argument rests upon a "trend", which is also not rationale to change the title, you're still wrong. Janus Films released the film under it's English title four years ago.[11] Also, please point out which part of WP:NCF that you've convinced yourself I do not understand. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 01:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
                  • The official and only UK title is La Grande Illusion. It is currently distributed in the US under the title La Grande Illusion. This title also gets many more Google hits. You want to be looking at the foreign language film section, of course. Film Fan (talk) 09:58, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
                    • I'm going to ignore your mantra of "official title" since you obviously keep repeating it without reading what I am saying. But anyway, there is no way to determine which title is more common. The French title gets only a fraction of more hits on Google, and that doesn't filter the foreign language countries that use the French title (including the francophonic ones). So I'm still not convinced. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 15:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
                      • 154k is a lot more than 84k. Film Fan (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
                        • Like I said, searching for the French title will bring up pages from other countries that alternately use the French title (along with unanimously in France). Using Google is not a reliable litmus test, especially in this case. 71.119.193.188 (talk) 22:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
                          • Okay, but La Grande Illusion is the only UK title and the most-used title in the US. Enough said. Film Fan (talk) 11:51, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose This translation is used in numerous scholarly texts and reviews of the film. MarnetteD | Talk 00:27, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • See my reply above. WP:CCC. La Grande Illusion has become the consensus title. Film Fan (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. I've always preferred to use the original title rather than a translation; using the French title also drops a disambiguator which is a nice added bonus. GRAPPLE X 00:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

• Weak oppose – The film was released in a large market with an English title, remains available there using the English name, and is known using that name in some substantial number of reliable sources. This is the English Wikipedia, so English is preferable. A move in the opposite direction is currently undergoing discussion (with only support expressed so far) at Talk:Das blaue Licht. There is a redirect in place, so people will find the article under either name. It doesn't seem too important either way. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:50, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, this is indeed English Wikipedia, where all the titles are supposed to be the titles most used in English-speaking countries, which--for this film--is La Grande Illusion. Can you deny anything I have said there? Film Fan (talk) 19:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. This could hardly be a more obvious change. Film Fan (talk) 21:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Grand Illusion just sounds very odd, maybe because "grande" doesn't mean "grand" in this context. There are two in-print English-language monographs devoted to the film, this and this, and they both use La Grande Illusion - a sign of the times? And in a large English-language source, it is surely the French title here which actually wins on the "recognizabilty" and "precision" test (WP:NC) - it doesn't need disambiguation or a qualifier! Lampernist (talk) 08:34, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support per nom. "Use English" does not mean "slavishly translate everything into English even if this term is not universally used in English-speaking countries". The original name should be preferred if it is commonly used in English-speaking countries. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. I see the film referred to (in English sources) as La Grande Illusion more often than Grand Illusion. --Lobo (talk) 21:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. La Grande Illusion translates as "the great illusion."[12] So the current title doesn't sit well with those who know any French. This film will soon be re-released to the U.S. market under the proposed title.[13] There is book to accompany the film entitled La Grande Illusion: (Jean Renoir, 1937) (2009). Kauffner (talk) 06:01, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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I'm not so bold as to request a move

especially after 3 tries before me, but is "La Grande Illusion" really the proper capitalization? I'd think the proper French title would be La grande illusion. Schissel | Sound the Note! 10:43, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 15:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

---

La Grande Illusion → Grand Illusion (film) – Well. I am aware that at this point, it's a pretty cocky move from my part but I'm still going to give it a go. I think this is more of a UK vs US thing that what it initially seemed to be. Since this has already been the subject of an extensive discussion before, it would perhaps be better to first state the points regarding why I don't agree with the previous consensus. Cinema Clown (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• "La Grande Illusion is the UK and Canada title, and also the title currently used in the US."

No. La Grande Illusion has always been only the UK title. According to IMDb, the film is known as Grand Illusion in Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The Canada claim was supposedly based on this Blu-ray edition which is in fact just a repackaging of the original StudioCanal version which was released in the UK. And regarding StudioCanal: it is a French film distribution company and has always historically released French films in English-speaking countries in their original French title, which includes many other films such as Contempt (film) (Le Mépris), Last Year at Marienbad (L'Année dernière à Marienbad), Port of Shadows (Le Quai des brumes) and many others. The only instance where La Grande Illusion is used as the title in the US is this Blu-ray edition by Lionsgate Films which is, once again, just another repackaging of the original StudioCanal home video release in the UK. And since the quoted comment was made in July 2012, the "currently used" portion isn't quite valid either. The film had its 75th anniversary re-release in the US in May 2012 and newspaper and magazine reviews followed the Grand Illusion title. Also, the Encyclopædia Britannica entry with the heading Grand Illusion was written in March 2012.

• "The US appears to be the only country to have used the title Grand Illusion, and is now using the original French title La Grande Illusion (like the rest of the English-speaking world)..."

No. Both British and Canadian news outlets (The Guardian, Evening Standard, The Globe and Mail, etc.) have often used Grand Illusion. The film is currently available on the Criterion Channel for streaming in Canada under that name itself.

• "Also, "grande illusion" renoir[14] gets many more google hits than "grand illusion" renoir[15]."

According to Wikipedia:DIVIDEDUSE, "Search-engine hits are generally considered unreliable for testing whether one term is more common than another..." Also it's pretty obvious that the former will get more results because French-language pages will be included as well. And if we go by the rules of search engine results, the first non-Wikipedia non-IMDb result that we get on searching for "la grande illusion" is Roger Ebert's review of the 1999 re-release, filed under Grand Illusion (the Criterion page for the film and the Britannica entry soon follow).

• "...it is currently distributed as La Grande Illusion in the US is an indicator that this is currently the preferred title in the US and the title most recognized by the US public...There is not a single English-speaking country that currently distributes the film as Grand Illusion."

Wrong. Two different boxed sets by Criterion (containing the DVD) are still in print. Grand Illusion is available for streaming on the Criterion Channel in both the US and Canada. Even Lionsgate Films distributes it as Grand Illusion on Prime Video in both HD and SD.

• "...it has never been known as Grand Illusion in the UK..."

To be honest, even if it might seem like that, it's simply and only because the BFI has historically always insisted on using the original titles of literally every film not in the English language.

• "I've always preferred to use the original title rather than a translation; using the French title also drops a disambiguator which is a nice added bonus."

Seriously? This counted as a genuine reason?

• "Grand Illusion just sounds very odd, maybe because "grande" doesn't mean "grand" in this context...And in a large English-language source, it is surely the French title here which actually wins on the "recognizabilty" and "precision" test (WP:NC)..."

The film didn't have any recorded major public screening in the UK until 1998. If the title didn't sound very odd since 1938 to 2012 through 1999, it surely doesn't even today for most people. And since when has every English title of foreign-language films been the exact translation of the films' original native language title? Such cases are quite rare for Asian films distributed in the English-speaking world. Why should French be an exception? Regarding "recognizabilty" and "precision," it has been already pointed that Grand Illusion is used in numerous scholarly texts.

• "La Grande Illusion translates as "the great illusion."[16] So the current title doesn't sit well with those who know any French...There is book to accompany the film entitled La Grande Illusion: (Jean Renoir, 1937) (2009)."

I'm almost sure that pandering to French sentiments isn't really listed anywhere as one of the purposes of English-language Wikipedia. And there are several other books on Renoir (some of them include interviews) which use Grand Illusion throughout. The books using La Grande Illusion are, of course, primarily from British publications, with the authors' research work being based on the prints from the BFI archives.

I am not denying that La Grande Illusion isn't a widely used title, but that absolutely can't be said for Grand Illusion either. Both of their presence in the English-speaking world is nothing but nearly equal in status. Now here's why Grand Illusion (film) is better suited:

1. According to WP:NCF: "If the film has been released under different titles within the English speaking world – if for example, some English-speaking countries prefer to use the native title, or if different translations are used in different countries – use the most common title throughout, and explain the other titles in the first or second sentence, putting each of them in bold." The most common title throughout is clearly Grand Illusion. La Grande Illusion has been an exclusively British thing, that too only since the past two decades. Usage of Grand Illusion in the English-speaking world dates as far back as the late 1930s.
2. According to WP:DIVIDEDUSE: "It is not our business to predict what term will be in use, but rather to observe what is and has been in use and will therefore be familiar to our readers." World-renowned critics like Pauline Kael and Roger Ebert have reviewed the film using Grand Illusion, which should suffice as long as recognizability is concerned.
3. Because this is the English-language Wikipedia. In this particular case, Grand Illusion should outweigh La Grande Illusion simply by virtue of being an English-language expression.

That's all. Cinema Clown (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose leave well alone. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• @In ictu oculi Can you please make a proper point supported by facts instead of leaving behind such short and obscure remarks? Cinema Clown (talk) 10:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

I can, but I prefer not to given the massive support for this name in previous RM above. Strong Oppose per book searches 1982 Tony Yaniro's Grand Illusion not to mention "The Grand Illusion was our first album to go platinum. It represented a turning point in our careers and in our lives. In many ways, The Grand Illusion was our best album — or at least it was the album that represented Styx working at its best " In ictu oculi (talk) 12:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Are you for real, @In ictu oculi? The previous RM was supported by 5 and opposed by 3. Is that what you call massive? Not to mention the second sentence you wrote makes absolutely no sense in this context. Cinema Clown (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

No, I'm not for real I'm a figment of Wikipedia's imagination. Oppose oppose oppose for all the reasons given in previous RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Both titles enjoy substantial usage in English sources, so both titles would be acceptable. However, the current one is the actual French title while the proposed title would need to be disambiguated. It seems like a no-brainer to keep it where it is per WP:NATURALDIS. Betty Logan (talk) 15:01, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

@Betty Logan Native titles of a great number of non-English (mostly European) films enjoy substantial usage in English sources. Wikipedia still uses their English titles as article titles, which includes so many other Renoir films such as The Lower Depths (1936 film), The Diary of a Chambermaid (1946 film), Elena and Her Men, Boudu Saved from Drowning and most significantly The Rules of the Game. WP:NATURALDIS mentions nowhere that use of disambiguators is discouraged; it simple states "If the article is about the primary topic to which the ambiguous name refers, then that name can be its title without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies," which is an entirely different issue (since the debate is regarding the titles of the same film and not about whether the primary topic is the film or the album) and hence, not really relevant in this discussion. Cinema Clown (talk) 15:57, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Both are English titles, so both are acceptable. Therefore it seems redundant to me to move the article to a disambiguated title when disambiguation is unnecessary. And yes, WP:NATURALDIS is entirely relevant because the proposed rename has a disambiguator; it would only be irrelevant if you were proposing a move to Grande Illusion. Betty Logan (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

@Betty Logan La Grande Illusion is in French, which has been sometimes used in the English-speaking world (just the UK, to be honest) only because certain scholars and exhibitors prefer to use native titles for every foreign-language film, be it French or Spanish or German or Italian. So it's not that they have done that only for this film. And hence, I don't prefer the using the French title (the capitalization doesn't even follow French grammar) since this is the English Wikipedia. What can possibly be wrong with something as simple as a one-word disambiguator? Wikipedia is littered with them anyway. Cinema Clown (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose unnecessary disambiguation, already discussed Atlantic306 (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

@Atlantic306 Several other articles on Renoir's films like The Lower Depths (1936 film), The Diary of a Chambermaid (1946 film) and The Little Match Girl (1928 film) also use disambiguators despite receiving a huge amount of coverage in English literary sources. I still don't get why disambiguation is such a big issue here. Cinema Clown (talk) 03:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Would request some active Wikipedia contributors from the previous move discussions to weigh in on the recent developments @MarnetteD, @William M. Connolley, @BarrelProof, @Necrothesp. Cinema Clown (talk) 05:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the ping. This case looks a bit complicated, so I don't want to express an opinion on it at this time. I'm just putting this comment here to make it clear that I noticed the discussion and deliberately chose not to comment. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. English Wikipedia has nearly unfailingly followed the titling forms used by the highly respected Criterion Collection and I see no good reason why this title should have become an exception on 20 July 2012. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the support @Roman Spinner. So far the only point opposing users have made is regarding the disambiguator. They perhaps don't have any problem with the use of disambiguators for other French classics like Contempt (film), Breathless (1960 film), Vagabond (1985 film), etc., but this is suddenly where they draw the line. Cinema Clown (talk) 07:53, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

That is not the only reason given WP:NATURAL was mentioned In ictu oculi (talk) 14:17, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi Sure. But considering this is about a film not in the English language, for which WP:NATURAL mentions no clear cut instructions whereas WP:NCF does, shouldn't this be an exception? The examples of divided usage WP:NATURAL lists are all among topics with variations of name within the English language, something which is unrelated here. Cinema Clown (talk) 14:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose as written. If anything, move to The Grand Illusion (film), which (a) preserves the definite article clearly present in the original title phrasing, and (b) happily coincides with the "World-wide (English title)" according to the IMDb link above. Otherwise leave as-is. ―cobaltcigs 12:09, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Can't agree on your suggested move @cobaltcigs. The film has only (for a few times) been referred to as The Grand Illusion simply because certain media coverage attempted to directly translate the French title for their English-speaking readers whenever it wasn't released as Grand Illusion and nothing else. There isn't any marketing material at all that contains the preceding "The". No posters. No home video cover arts. Cinema Clown (talk) 12:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Given it is clearly referred to by its native name in English-speaking countries it's best to keep it there. No good reason for a move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@Necrothesp Almost every classic foreign-language film is clearly referred to by its native name in English-speaking countries. By that logic, shouldn't every other English Wikipedia article on such films be moved from their English titles to their native ones? Cinema Clown (talk) 11:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

In general, yes, unless the English translation is overwhelmingly used. Some Wikipedia editors are far too fond of slavishly translating everything into English, whether that is the commonest name in English-speaking countries or not, and this is not what WP:UE mandates. Most of us native English-speakers are, I hope, capable of handling the fact that there are other languages in the world! There again, maybe it's the difference between those of us who prefer to watch foreign-language films in the original language with subtitles or those who sadly can't cope with anything except a version with ludicrous English dubbing. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

It may be noted that among non-English language films that have been exhibited in the English-speaking world, consistent Wikipedia argumentation over English titles for such films is almost entirely confined to French and Italian productions. All other non-English titles are generally translated into English and the well-known exceptions (from Mexico: Y Tu Mamá También, from India: Pather Panchali or Aparajito, from Japan: Rashomon or Ran (film) are indisputably known only by those titles.

It is also worth noting that not a single one of Ingmar Bergman's films is known in the English-speaking world by its native title and classics such as The Seventh Seal or Wild Strawberries (film) would be virtually unrecognizable to English speakers as Det sjunde inseglet or Smultronstället. The only films by Pedro Almodóvar that are known in the English-speaking world by their native titles are one-word entries — Matador (film), Kika (film), Volver and Julieta (film). There are various other examples for Andrzej Wajda, Miloš Forman, Miklós Jancsó, Dušan Makavejev, etc. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@Necrothesp I've already listed oodles of facts to show that Grand Illusion is indeed overwhelmingly used. Neither is it a direct or appropriate translation of the French title. Even the world's largest body of film professionals, the AMPAS, has Grand Illusion listed in its database. And how is anglicization remotely related to this discussion that WP:UE should come into play? 18:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)Cinema Clown (talk)

• Oppose Per Betty Logan, et al. Cinema Clown - please do not ping me, I'm not going to change my mind. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

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