Talk:Lady Jessica

image

Can we update the image to the 2020 version? Since the original content is 30 years old? Triosdeity (talk) 10:29, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

agreed DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 02:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, it appears whatever image you uploaded was deleted because it was a copyrighted image incorrectly uploaded to Commons, which is for free images. Anyway, the current photo (Francesca Annis) has been in the article and considered definitive of the character since 2006, so any change should be discussed here and not made without consensus. Thanks! — TAnthony^Talk 16:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean how do we make a consensus DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 19:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Do we just call a vote here and see who replies? Doesn't seem to be a super active article DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@TAnthony Before I call a consensus vote, what are your objections to changing the image to the more recent actor? I understand there was an older version of the character but the Dune from the 80's was no where near as sucessful (nor influential) as the 2021 version. As proof of this, id like to point out it won 6 academy awards and made by far, even adjusting for inlfation, more money than the 80's dune. I don't think the majority of people would think the old version of this character is the best representation, similar to Paul Atreides. DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 19:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I LOVE the new films and Rebecca Ferguson, but the success of the film itself doesn't necessarily get transferred onto all of its elements and characters. In my opinion, the 1984 Jessica is very definitive and visually interesting. What photo of Ferguson would you choose? It's common in comic book and soap opera articles to use "the most recent" representation of a character but elsewhere not so much. It's interesting you mention Paul Atreides because that image was changed without wide consensus, which led to a giant battle over whether or not there should be a non-free photo at all, and sort of revealed that some people were unhappy with the change. Anyway, my personal "vote" on an image change would depend on which one you're suggesting.— TAnthony^Talk 22:39, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I would disagree. I understand that the 1984 is more visually interesting but I really kind of doubt that most people would associate that image as Lady Jessica today. I think that it would be safe to say that not nearly as many people have seen the original Dune so when they saw the movie in theaters, thats who they assicoate as Lady Jessica. In terms of which image precisely, I could offer a few ideas and we see which one people like the best.

In short, my position is just that I think we should put the new actress up simply because its more recognizable to the majority of people, due in large part to the success of the film.

I think we have several great options to choose from:

Option 1: This is from the Dune wiki, we might be able to do something similar where we have the different variants of her that can be toggeled with a simple button: reducing potential clutter. [1]https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Jessica_Atreides

Option 2: [2]https://ew.com/thmb/f4UbBdBeAgFsxfaHHP38n11Ku74=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/Dune-Two-022324-565003af9eb64d159f60c2c51e4b48e5.jpg

This comes from this article: [3]https://ew.com/how-dune-part-two-handles-alia-jessica-pregnancy-8599667

Option 3

This is from the Italian Wikipedia, its just the main image

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Jessica DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 22:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I would personally vote for Option 2, as I think it shows her character the best. If that one doesnt work for copyright reasons id go with Option 3 DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 23:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah 1 or 2 are what I would call definitive. Copyright wise they're the same, non-free like the current one.— TAnthony^Talk 00:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I thank you for working with me on this, I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, do we wait a few days to see if anyone else has input and if not, call option 2 "consensus?" DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 00:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I'll draft a more concise proposal for you below, and then post some notifications. An image change is a relatively small matter, but it should have a discussion in this case because it's potentially controversial. However, it's not something that has the kind of impact to require global input in a more formal discussion. For your future knowledge, it's fine to notify other editors about a discussion with the intent of getting more participation toward a consensus, but you must avoid WP:CANVASSING, which is making notifications in such a way as to attempt to influence the potential results. For example, only notifying editors you believe may agree with a certain argument, or wording your notification in such a way as to convince others of something. It best just to post a generic notification on talk pages where you expect to find editors interested in participating. Also, in these discussions editors typically "vote" with comments, like this:

• Change to Option 17, the red carpet photo is the best depiction of Abraham Lincoln. — AbeLover45
• Keep existing photo, which is more current. — NotSoFastMister

Thanks!— TAnthony^Talk 17:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposed infobox image change

Per their comments above, DuneEnjoyer333 is proposing that the infobox image for this article be changed from the Francesca Annis 1984 version to Rebecca Ferguson from the current Villeneuve films. Their suggestions are as follows:

• Option 1: Dune 2 - Tattooed Jessica 1, from the Dune wiki
• Option 2: Dune 2 - Tattooed Jessica 2 from Entertainment Weekly
• Option 3: Dune 1 - Jessica with blue scarf from the Italian Wikipedia
• Option 3 v2: Dune 1 - Jessica with blue scarf v2 from Den of Geek

DuneEnjoyer333, I don't want to improperly paraphrase your comments above, so please feel free to "vote" and comment here. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 17:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 I personally think is best (and would be my vote out of the 3). I think it shows her character in a way defined enough that most people would automatically recognize her.

Thanks for helping me with this btw@TAnthony you're awesome man DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 17:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• I'd prefer Option 3 or something like it because the character does not get tattooed until the second film, and I think in general the first prominent appearance is appropriate enough. Plus I feel like we could possibly show something like Option 1/2 in the article body if there is critical commentary for the tattooed look. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Keep the current 1984 image, but I'm intrigued by Erik's idea of incorporating the 2024 tattoo Jessica (Option 2) with sourced commentary into the article itself. I'm going to overthink this for you now LOL. The Francesca Annis version of Jessica is the first adaptation and very iconic/distinctive. I love Rebecca Ferguson, but her looks from the 2021 film don't jump out insofar as they're just the actress in simple couture, and don't look much different than the Commons image we already have of Ferguson as herself. The tattoo image is spectacular and distinctive, but is too specific for the infobox, as it doesn't quite represent the character as a whole. Erik's idea is genius, because we can use two images of actresses in character instead of one and not violate NFCC, and the body of the article is perfect for the Part Two representation. I've expanded the Villenueve films section of the article, and think Option 2 would fit right in there.— TAnthony^Talk 14:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I like Erik's idea but I think I know a way it could be done better. I agree the tattooed version is specific but I think showing the 80's version of Jessica isn't the best move because way less people saw that film. It's less about how much money whatever the film made is and more about how many people associate what character with that actress.

  I think there could be a compromise here. Similar to how the Dune wiki has a 'toggle' button to see different actors, we could do the same thing. I know the code exists because the map for the USA has 3 buttons on it. I think this could work out well, unless that violates some weird Wikipedia rule I don't know about lol. As for which image, I'd still prefer option 2, but I think I found a better version of option 3 if we wanna do that. I could support this version of option 3:

  JessicaOption3version2

  What do y'all think? @Erik@TAnthony DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 02:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  See option 1 website on lady Jessica for reference of what specifically I mean for "actor toggling" DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Also for some reason my "Option 3 Version 2" link broke so here's a more direct link:

  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDmENo8WEAYF_3V.jpg DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 02:51, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately WP:NFCC requires that we use as few non-free images as possible, which in this case would be one in the infobox. Your toggle idea would be a violation. Erik's idea creates the loophole of being able to use a second image because the reliably sourced commentary in the article discusses the tattoo look.— TAnthony^Talk 03:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case I would vote for Version 3 V2 as the main image, but I just don't think the 80's version is the best representation of the character. I get putting it in the body is an alternative (and maybe we could do that as well) but I just think the main image could be done better. I understand how important the first actress was and have respect for her (and her performance!), but I'm just thinking best modern representation here. DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 03:16, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't like calling it a loophole. I genuinely believe the first full appearance is proper. The tattooed look, if anything, is a disguise that the character takes on to manipulate the Fremen to favor Paul. This has the director commenting on the tattooed look, "She’s trying to play on the symbolism that was put in the prophecy. She’s supposed to be the mother of the Messiah, so I wanted to bring the idea that she was like the pope of the reverend mothers on Arrakis. There’s some kind of madness in writing elements of the prophecies on her face. Frankly, I think when you drink the worm poison, it affects your sanity — and the same with Paul. I like the idea that we feel she's going too far." With that being the case, tattooed Jessica in the infobox does not seem that representative. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

what do you think of option 3 V2? @Erik DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it works well. I'd support that. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, you prefer replacing the current 1984 image with one form the new film?— TAnthony^Talk 17:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think the infobox should have Ferguson-as-Jessica regardless. I prefer Option 3 V2 so far. If Annis-as-Jessica has any critical commentary, it could exist in the article body. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Keep the current. It's mostly a personal taste area, but what can you do. Also, older portrayal that has been commented on longer. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 because I think audiences mostly define Lady Jessica as the tattooed version of her character. I also really like Option 3 but I'm leaning more towards a tattooed version. I also meant to start a conversation about updating the image a few months ago but I never got around to it. Kokaynegeesus (talk) 04:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Just wanted to say I love the compromise you made based off this discussion on the main page. Nice job man! @TAnthony DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 13:26, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Sorry I meant to mention it in this discussion and forgot.— TAnthony^Talk 14:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)