Talk:Lagerstroemia

Neither Hyphen nor Space should be in the common name

I'm going to remove the hyphen in the common name. My justification is that I simply do not see the name hyphenated elsewhere based on a web search, consulting two paper dictionaries, consulting two e-dictionaries, and looking at the Crape Myrtle Society web site—no hyphens. Even this page is not consistent in its use of the hyphen. Wikispecies does not use it, nor does the Wikipedia's page for Lagerstroemia indica. I see in this page's history the hyphens were inserted back in 2007, not in the original submission. If an editor wants hyphens, that's OK by me, just undo my change. But please explain just to satisfy my curiosity. Pinethicket (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Carl Whitcomb, an accomplished horticulturist and breeder of Lagerstroemia cultivars, and inventor of several of its outstanding varieties, explains that the common name is correctly crapemyrtle. To use two words indicates that the first is an adjective of the second one, thus making crape myrtle as a type of myrtle--which it is not. It only has the superficial appearance of a myrtle, in some ways. Using one word indicates the uniqueness of the type, and dispells the notion that it may be a type of something (myrtle) that it is not. So please, let's discard both the hyphen and the space, and use the terminology deemed proper by the experts. Dr. Whitcomb says, The common name is crapemyrtle, not crape myrtle. Why? Because it is in the genus Lagerstroemia and in the Lythraceae plant family, and not in the genus Myrtus which is in the Myrtaceae family. It is simply a plant that LOOKS somewhat remotely like a myrtle. On the other hand, the Greek myrtle, Myrtus communis is a true myrtle and appropriately, the common name is two words. Standardized Plant Names, in the preface on page VII, provides further insights on this topic. In the case of compound names in which a name properly belonging to one genus is applied in compound to a different genus, like horsechestnut or mayapple, failure to write or print them as compound words, either with a hyphen or solid is in many cases likely to cause serious confusion and should be consistently avoided. The committee prefers and prints mayapple. It makes no serious objection to may-apple. It objects very positively to may apple, which is apt to mean, for anyone not familiar with the plant, that it is a species or variety of the genus Malus'. Clearly horsechestnut, Aesculus hippocastanum, is not a chestnut, Castanea but simply bears some resemblance and mayapple, Podophyllum, is not an apple and is not in the genus Malus, but does produce a fruit that somewhat resembles an apple. And there are loads of other examples where the appropriate common name is a compound word: horseapple / Maclura pomifera, buttonwood / Cephalanthus occidentalis, barberry / Berberis thunburgi, hackberry / Celtis occidentalis, walnut / Juglans nigra, dogwood / Cornus florida, firethorn / Pyracantha species, soapberry / Sapindus drummondi, and on and on. I suspect that computers and their very limited spell check capabilities are responsible for some of the current ‘rash’ of taking legitimate compound common names, such as crapemyrtle and incorrectly breaking them into two words. It is up to you to break your computer of such nasty habits.

Subsequent commenters advocate for crape myrtle, stating that it is the oldest, most frequently-used common name. But they also recognize that the English language changes with use. I hope that Dr. Whictomb's reasoning, and that the venrerable contributors to "Standardized Plant Names A Catalogue of Approved Scientific and Common Names of Plants in American Commerce," who include Frederick Law Olmsted, the father of landscape architecture, Fredric V. Coville,Founder of the United States National Arboretum, and more than 200 other collaborators, will be recognized here. Since language does change, Wikipedia should not remain stuck in the past, nor conform to faulty past usage, just because it is more often used.

 pechaney (talk) 14:33, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Cuddle Tree?

Is this plant really known in Texas as the "Cuddle Tree"? Rojomoke (talk) 09:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed unsourced. Rojomoke (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

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Blacklisted Links Found on Lagerstroemia

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Caption of image

There's an image with a caption claiming the crepe myrtle in said picture is 100 feet tall; which is ridiculous. It's only twice as tall as a 1-story building, or about 6 times as tall as the pickup truck in the foreground or car in the background. I'd estimate it no more than 30-40 feet tall at the most. If no one objects, I'm going to remove the height entirely. --Jayron32 20:56, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, I don't know what it should say, as I am not an expert on this subject, but I agree the height is inappropriate for the image. BrentRockwood (talk) 13:09, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

This is the image https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lagerstroemia_behind_South_San_Francisco_Post_Office.jpg it's the biggest crepe myrtle I've ever seen. Has to be 50 feet tall. Scottst (talk) 17:12, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Lendia (tree). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:02, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

"Crape myrtle" (with a space) is the oldest, most accepted, most commonly used, and therefore most correct version of the common name.

I am new and inexperienced to Wikipedia editing, so please feel free to let me know if I am doing something wrong. I will not take offense.

I disagree that the common English name for a plant or other thing can be dictated or changed by scientists who study and know all about that thing. They have every right—and perhaps the duty—to make up scientific names that are logical and reasonable. So, I think it is perfectly appropriate that scientific papers use "Lagerstroemia" or "crapemyrtle" or "crape-myrtle" as the scientists think appropriate. I have no quarrel with naming the crape myrtle page "Lagerstroemia" since that is more technical and more precise. However it is just plain wrong to say that "crape myrtle" is a misspelling. It is not, but is instead the most correct version of the common English name.

The English language is not dictated or controlled by a central authority as is French. Instead, the names attached to things in common English (as opposed to scientific nomenclature) are set by the way English-speaking people speak and write. The name "crape myrtle" (as two words) dates to at least as early as 1850, and is the most accepted version of the name by language authorities. It is the spelling for the main entry in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.). That book has NO listing for "crapemyrtle" or "crape-myrtle" and lists "crepe myrtle" as a variant of "crape myrtle" dating back to at least 1916. Bryan Garner, a respected authority in English usage, lists the term as "crape myrtle" and lists "crepe myrtle" as a misspelling. (No mention of "crapemyrtle" or "crape-myrtle"). (Garner's Modern English Usage, 4th ed. 2016 Oxford University Press).

If you want additional evidence as to how the terms are used in printed matter over many decades, Google's ngram viewer shows "crape myrtle" has historically been the most frequent spelling, except for 1910 to 1956 when "crepe myrtle" was more popular. "Crapemyrtle" has always been a very-distant third place since its inception.

See Google ngrams comparison.

With all due respect to Dr. Whitcomb, who no doubt knows far more about crape myrtles than I ever will, scientists do not get to pick what is the "correct" common English word. They only get to pick the "correct" scientific term. Using a term approved and preferred by authorities like Merriam-Webster should not be called a "misspelling."

@Pinethicket: I think the page should use "crape myrtle" throughout, with the exception of the introductory paragraph where it should give an accurate account of "Lagerstroemia" and "crapemyrtle" as more precise or preferred scientific terms (but not the most common English name), and where "crepe myrtle" should be listed as a common misspelling or spelling variant. Glengalbraith (talk) 03:06, 19 September 2019 (UTC) @Pechaney: Same. Glengalbraith (talk) 03:12, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Glengalbraith (talk) 21:08, 18 September 2019 (UTC)GlenGalbraith

The trouble with the Google ngram comparison is that it shows "crepe myrtle" at a higher peak than "crape myrtle," meaning if it's a misspelling it was at one time (~1935) more frequently spelled "crepe." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9190:74C0:DC15:ED20:550D:FBF6 (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

• Just for the sake of completeness; here is the complete ngrams result for all of the names. There was a brief period of time when "crepe myrtle" was more popular as a term than "crape myrtle", but the most common name in the corpus across time and indeed recently, appears to be "Lagerstroemia" followed by "crape myrtle" with a space and an a. The absolute peak is meaningless; what we want to do is look at things like trends and recent language use, because language evolves. However, it's entirely pointless for this discussion, since Lagerstroemia is the most common name, and has been for a long time. --Jayron32 17:47, 5 December 2019 (UTC)