Talk:Last Post/Archive 1

Archive 1

"The"

Any reason for omitting the definite article in the article itself? I've never heard it called just "Last Post", always "The Last Post" (or 'the "Last Post"', you can't tell which by ear). I know the military have a lot of strange usages (like "I'll say that again" when they're going to say something else or "As you were!" as a kind of "Undo") so they may have a thing about it that we civilians don't know about, and it may be one of those. If so, perhaps that should be mentioned. --Hugh7 (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the Bugle Call's correct Title is Tattoo (Last Post) and it primary use was as a "watch-setting" call (marking 2200hrs or Staff Parade). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob the Bandy (talk • contribs) 00:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Redirect to Taps??

As far as I can tell this article references what is known in the United States as "Taps." Should we simply supplement that article with the "Last Post" info and use this as a redirect page?

Onlyemarie 03:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Er, no. They're completely different bugle calls. The Last Post (UK and Commonwealth) sounds nothing like Taps (USA). -- Necrothesp 20:21, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the Taps article it says they are the same. I wonder...Onlyemarie 06:09, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, being very familiar with both of them, I can assure you they're not. Anyway, it doesn't say they're the same - it says they're "equivalent", which is not the same thing at all. God Save the Queen is "equivalent" to The Star-Spangled Banner - it doesn't make them the same piece of music. -- Necrothesp 00:59, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The page does appear to claim that Last Post is used today in the US for military funerals. I'm quite sure this is incorrect -- the US military uses only Taps for this purpose, as far as I'm aware, and Last Post is completely unknown in the US. Having lived in both Canada and the US, I join with Necrothesp in stating that Last Post and Taps are completely different bugle calls, even though they are used in the same way in their respective countries. -- Richwales 22:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The Last Post and Taps are very similar. I would go so far as to say that Taps is a simplified version of The Last Post.

I suggest you listen to the calls. There is no resemblance except in the few few notes. -- Necrothesp 12:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I HAVE listened to the calls. We sang Taps at the end of every Guides meeting, and played the Last Post at every rememberance day. They are incredibly similar, in a theme and variations stylee.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion of course. But being very familiar with both of them, I completely disagree. -- Necrothesp 18:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I wonder whether the seeming similarity may be due to the fact that they're both bugle calls — necessarily restricted to the notes of the harmonic series, and sharing a tendency to go up and down the harmonic series by single steps. Both Taps and Last Post, for example, use the four-note descending sequence G-E-C-G. But I really don't think that's enough to make them "incredibly similar." Richwales 07:48, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Taps and The Last Post are different pieces of music. However similar they may be they cannot be identified as one and they same. The Last Post is played the same way every time and so is Taps. It isn't like The Last Post is just Taps when mistakes are made, or vica-versa. They are clearly two seperate pieces of music. Symphonies from the same era can sound very similar but you can hardly say they are the same piece, can you? Secondly, the fact they are used differently (in different countries) should be enough to seperate them. The point is to enlighten, not confuse people. If people want to know about The Last Post then they should be able to find out about The Last Post. Depending which country they are from they might not care at all about Taps or vica-versa. Finally, as an Australian I know I would find it offensive if the tribute my country plays to soldiers who have died was confused with the tribute of another country. I've been living in America and I'm sure that Americans who have lost love ones in the line of duty would feel the same way. Different countries have different militaries, and different tributes, which in itself should be enough to seperate them. They are different and shouldn't be referred to as the same.

I'm relieved I didn't see this discussion at the time or I would have probably got so angry I'd have had a heart attack. (And then someone could have played the LP for me!) Now I feel quite calm so I will just add my (considerable) weight to those saying that they are in no way the same piece of music. They are not even that similar. Richwales was absolutely right when he pointed out that there's a kind of superficial similarity based on the fact that they are both bugle calls - yep, there is only so much you can do with six notes. But to suggest that they are "incredibly similar" - er, no, they are not. A fingerprint expert would walk away. Sherlock Holmes would go "yer what?" It's like saying that all Beach Boys tunes are the same tune, or that oranges are really bananas, or that Bach and Handel should be rolled into one article because they both wrote in D Major. It won't wash! Phew, glad I got that off my chest - back to suspended animation. (Ex-wikipedian) 138.37.199.199 16:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Merger with Military tattoo

Why on earth would we want to merge this with military tattoo? They're completely different things. Yes, the Last Post is usually played in a military tattoo, but they are most certainly not the same thing. -- Necrothesp 11:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. The Last Post is a piece, not an event!

Quite. The merger, I am pleased to see, was not treated as a serious suggestion. 138.37.199.199 16:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

But they are not completely different things. Tattoo (First Post) was the bugle call sounded at 2130hrs to mark the start of the Orderly Officer's rounds and Tattoo (Last Post) was the bugle call sounded at 2200hrs to signify the end of rounds and Staff Parade. During this time the Drums of a regiment would beat, which became known as a Tattoo. --Bob the Bandy (talk) 00:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There should be 2 seperate articles one for Last Post the bugle tune and "The Last Post" which is an event, a daily ceremony in Ypres , at the Menin Gate

The former is worth of an article to describe the tune, the origin , the relation to others like Taps, Tatoo, etc

the latter has a wealth of history, and a massive dose of symbolic meaning, of rememberance , and a message of peace true they are closely related, but the daily Last Post is something of near sacred status in parts of Belgium and the whole of the UK, and Brittish Commonwealth

if the tune merges with "military tatoo" then "the last post" should most definately remain as a reference to Ypres and the Menin Gate

Just for the record I think, with apologies for any offence, that many of the above comments are wrong too. The current situation is actually not too bad with a main bugle call article (which, while not without problems, is pretty good) and various sub-articles, including this, on certain specific calls. That all seems to me to be quite healthy and wiki-like and I would hotly oppose attempts to interfere and merge and nonsense like that proposed earlier and fortunately defeated or ignored. Turning to the suggestion that a Last Post article should ever remain solely an article about the Menin Gate ceremony, I honestly do think it's a seriously bad idea. To suggest in effect that the Menin Gate IS the Last Post, or that it is its most important manifestation, is simply not right. The Menin Gate ceremony is of undoubted importance and it is right that it is mentioned both here and elsewhere. But this article is and should be primarily about the bugle call and its use, not about one very specific use. The Menin Gate despite its significance does not hold a monopoly on this tune. 82.45.248.177 12:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Recording

This article needs a recording of the call, or at least a link to one. Any ideas? Modest Genius ^talk 23:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Fark?

Do we really need the Fark bit? It seems possibly a bit too trivial for an encyclopaedia article. Lots of people and sites make use of the Last Post tune or concept but they do not all need to be listed here. Opinions please? 138.37.199.206 10:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I see someone zapped it. Thank you. 82.45.248.177 12:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Music excerpts

A couple of small things about the music excerpt. I think it is excellent to have the music. I am a bit baffled that:

a. this article has no direct link to the full music which is to be found at bugle call - so, without inside knowledge, you do not readily find all the music from this article

b. this article's excerpt does not agree with the full music. The other version has a quaver (eighth-note) as the third note played - this has a crotchet or quarter-note. I am not saying that one is necessarily wrong. B&H's "Kneller Hall approved" version has the quaver, but listening to the RM buglers playing at the Cenotaph on Sunday I'd say they do quite a few substitutions along these lines. So maybe there is no one right version. But I do think that we should either be consistent, or at least explain the inconsistency, as the current situation seems to hold some potential confusion.

Views please? Thanks 82.45.248.177 13:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure about the variations. As to the full music, there is also Image:Last Post.png, which has less in the way of phrasing marks than Image:Bugle Calls Last Post.svg, but comes with LilyPond source, and so is readily editable (just edit the source at http://wikisophia.org/wiki/User:EdC then save and re-upload the image). EdC 23:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Amazing. I had no idea that all this text > music stuff existed (ignorant, old etc) and I am looking forward to playing with it. I see that someone else has already substituted the full score for the extract, which seems like a good move. The question of exact versions might be returned to some time. For now, no-one is going to get shot or sacked for playing either of the current versions, I feel! Thanks 82.45.248.177 09:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

And I've moved the music to its own page on Wikisophia: http://wikisophia.org/wiki/Last_Post where anyone can edit it without worrying about treading on my feet. EdC (talk) 00:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Fire brigade

Those sentences about the Ieper Fire Brigade need tidying up - they jar a bit. Although the ceremony isn't organised by the Brandweeg, theirs is the privilege of providing the buglers. Captain Pedant (talk) 23:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely with this. I think this is a case of direct, literal translation from the writer's language (Flemish?) to English and the subsequent loss of meaning which often comes from such an approach to translation. As a native English speaker I found the comments about the fire brigade very ambiguous - as it currently stands there are two statements which directly contradict one another. I *think* the writer is trying to say that, while the buglers *are* (sometimes? always?) drawn from the local fire brigade, it is not the responsibility or privilege of the fire brigade to organise and maintain the ceremony but it is their privilege to supply the buglers. Correct? If so I am happy to make the change or somebody else should feel free to Privateiron (talk) 11:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

This still (over 7 years since it was first raised) needs attention: the English is so unidiomatic as to be incomprehensible. The current version reads: "These buglers or trumpeters are quite often mistaken as being from the local fire brigade; however, they are present every day representing the Last Post Committee. They are indeed members of the fire brigade, and can sometimes be seen wearing the uniforms, but it is not the Fire Brigade that organises "Last Post"." Can't somebody familiar with the facts make the necessary adjustment? GrindtXX (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Last Post

Please realise that (in the UK at least) bugles are 'blown' and not 'played'

This is military tradition and as bugles tend to be military instruments this should apply generally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.246.215 (talk) 22:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Although calls are "sounded" rather than played or blown.--Bob the Bandy (talk) 00:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Taptoe in the Netherlands

The Taptoe blown/played for remembrance day in the Netherlands is not the same as the Last Post, from what I can tell from the recordings here. If you're not familiar with the Dutch Taptoe, there is a recording here: [1] . Would be cool if someone can update the article with the relevant information about distinctions / history in this case. Gijs Kruitbosch (talk) 13:58, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Eh, I should note, in case it wasn't obvious - the taptoe begins at about 38 seconds into the clip... Gijs Kruitbosch (talk) 14:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I've added a little bit to try to meet your concern. I am not convinced there was a big problem since the article didn't really say it was the same, but since it does go on about the origin of the word Taptoe I suppose there could be some potential confusion. Hmmmm - actually I'm worried that I'm still confused but hey. The video you referenced is excellent and I very much enjoyed hearing this new (to me!) bugle call, and so nicely played, thank you. And yep you're right, it is nothing like the Last Post! If you think the article needs sorting out more please go for it, or propose something here, or both, or whatever! :) Best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 17:43, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! In particular, I meant the paragraph: "Last Post is used in public ceremonials commemorating the war dead, particularly on Remembrance Day in the Commonwealth of Nations and The Netherlands (known as Veterans Day in the United States)." As illustrated by the video, we don't play the Last Post. I'm not sure what the official name of the bugle call used in the Netherlands is. For now, I will just remove the reference to the Netherlands there... Gijs Kruitbosch (talk) 10:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)