Talk:Lele Pons

Hagiography

The page should stay in my opinion but it needs to be harshly edited. The article reads like it was written by her agent or is a puff piece in some gossip mag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.164.180.193 (talk) 16:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Followers

It should stay up. She has around 6 million followers on vine. I think that makes her relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:7C42:D100:90E8:D5AB:DB1F:365D (talk) 06:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Keep. She has up to 3,035,232,500 loops, and adding about more than 50 per second, by my reckoning. She claims to be the first to reach 3 billion.Geoff wales (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

BLP issues

Her birthday keeps being removed, even after a source has been provided. The source in question is a tweet, which wouldn't be an appropriate source except the fact that it was a tweet from the article's subject itself falls in line with the WP:BLPSELFPUB policy. It does not break any of that policy's 5 rules. Soulbust (talk) 17:56, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for discussing this issue. There are multiple concerns, the first being that the Tweet is not specific. It does not actually state a month, day, or year that the subject was born. Second, we should not be relying on Twitter as a source for key biographical details, such as date of birth. The subject may claim they were born any month/day/year that serves their interests, which has happened in the past with various living subjects, and this detail should be provided by a reliable third party publication. I understand that this may be a gray area for some, but given the history of this article combined with the weakness of this source, I think we can wait until we can find a better, more reliable source. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 18:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIVACY says the we must have some indication from the subject that they are OK with the release of key birth data and a verified twitter account will support that requirement. The release of month/day info is unlikely to be self-serving. If we can find a third party reference to the year such as a dated reliable source that mentions her age, we would have complete info that can be added to the article that would meet both WP:RS and WP:BLPPRIVACY. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Years active

That's certainly wrong. I'd fix it, but I don't know what's correct.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 13:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Family

Who are her parents? Genetikbliss (talk) 03:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2019

Bizzybee17 (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

The youtube Subscriber count as of November 2019 is 15.3 Million

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 16:50, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Nerd City critical commentary

Here is Nerd City's video. Is it possible to comment on this for this article? I noticed that the Jake Paul article doesn't mention Nerd City. Is this deliberate? What is allowed on Wikipedia? --LABcrabs (talk) 00:41, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

Please explain the constant removal, generally by one editor, of the fact that Lele Pons is Venezuelan AND American. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:37, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

MOS:OPENPARABIO - "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." I am just attempting to retain conformance to that guideline. She left Venezuela at age 5. She did nothing of note there so Venezuela does not belong in the intro. She has dual citizenship which is mentioned in the infobox. Nothing was being hidden. Additional references to the fact she has dual citizenship and is proud of her ancestry and ethnicity could support more info in the body of the article but shouldn't change what goes in the intro of the article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

You have selectively quoted from that section, leaving out The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Please stop edit warring; you have removed this information at least four times this week, and you just did it again,[1] rather than discuss and come to consensus on talk. 3RR is not a license to slow edit war.

Further, her celebrity status came from the Internet, which has NO nationality, so it is odd to see ONE of her nationalities mentioned, with the other left out. To be consistent with the (partial) logic you are employing, you would also be removing the "American". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Her notability is from producing and presenting videos which she did in the US. The internet is how she published her work. American is well supported as that is where she did that and achieved her notability. I linked the main MOS section and pulled a pertinent quote which defined why I was removing content that conflicted with it. Her being born in Venezuela and retain her citizenship is interesting but irrelevant to her notability. She became a permanent resident in the US at age 5 and later a citizen. That is what belongs in the intro. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Context: I've been linked here from the Venezuela WikiProject. Still, being a frequent contributor at the Biography WikiProject, Geraldo Perez is definitely selectively interpreting the bio lead guidelines; all the above being true, Lele Pons is not "American", she is "Venezuelan-American", and it is factually incorrect to say otherwise. Being an American national is not relevant to her notability - if we were to only and consistently refer the country in which someone produced their most notable works then we'd be calling Charlize Theron "American", but right in the first sentence that article says "South African and American". Kingsif (talk) 17:16, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Theron had notable work in both countries so that is why both are listed for her - also see extensive discussion on Theron's talk page about why she is listed that way. Pons had notable work only in the US, nothing in Venezuela which she emigrated from at age 5. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

A manual of style guideline should never be construed as an excuse for inaccuracy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

If there is an inaccuracy. I believe I am interpreting the guideline correctly and have been editing in good faith to keep this article conformant to it. But since the manual of style is a guideline, and not policy, discussed local consensus can override it and do whatever that consensus decides. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

That's an improvement. More important than a guideline is our BLP policy, and we always defer (via OTRS, etc) to the wishes of the living subject in cases like this. Lele clearly singles out her Venezuelan heritage on her Instagram profile (not American),[2] as she did in the Tweet referenced in the article,[3] as she did when she was a host at Venezuela Aid Live [4] (not to mention reliable sources like the Los Angeles Times, Sun Sentinel, and more). I don't know what Charlize Theron's situation is (and am not partial to OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments), but Pons is from a country where one is forced to emigrate. (And if we are going by OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, Gloria Estefan is a closer example, and she came to the US at a younger age than Pons did; I can't imagine anyone referring to her as anything other than Cuban-American.) If she still identifies as Venezuelan, I see no solid reason for Wikipedia to exclude one nationality over the other, when she is a dual citizen who identifies strongly with her birthplace. It also odd to presume that her celebrity status is not related to her being a Venezuelan, when some of her hit songs are in Spanish. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Lele Pons has clearly identified herself as Venezuela many times, through social media and public events like for example Venezuela Aid Live. It is also why she claims the "Latina" label, if that means anything. The lead should make it clear that she is both US American and Venezuelan.--ReyHahn (talk) 18:08, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposal

Eleonora "Lele" Pons Maronese (born June 25, 1996) is a United States–Venezuelan dual citizen Internet celebrity, YouTuber, actress, singer, dancer, model, and former television host.

This works for me, as it deals with the distinction between US and American (since Venezuela is part of the Americas). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose this, as both contrary to MOS:ETHNICITY, and terrible sentence construction to boot. The correct way to do this would be Eleonora "Lele" Pons Maronese (born June 25, 1996) is a Venezuelan and American Internet celebrity, YouTuber, actress, singer, dancer, model, and former television host. I would also add that it is almost certain that her list of "careers" is over-subscribed – it should only list her notable careers in the lede which is probably just "YouTuber, actress, singer(?), and former television host". The lede should not include a "laundry list" of everything subjects have ever done, just the notable careers/occupations. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Ummm I need to add that the change has not been made. It currently still only says “American celebrity” and not “Venezuelan and American celebrity”.

I also have to point out that the woman’s whole identity comes from being Venezuelan, she mentions it repeatedly in every interview. She was born in Venezuela, Caracas specifically, and with the way Venezuelan citizenship works she is Venezuelan.

I also have to point out to those that might understand cultural differences through language, that in English the ‘Americas’ and ‘America’ are two different things. American means from the United States in English.

Regardless, I am more concerned with the fact that changes have not been made, and it still just says American. The article is purposely locked by whoever wants to take away her Venezuelan nationality from her wiki.

You are either trolling or just gatekeeping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:A:5:0:0:0:1C (talk) 21:17, 24 December 2020 (UTC)