Talk:Levon (song)

Untitled

Excuse me, I added info about song but didn't get how to insert link correctly — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aleks.arsen (talk • contribs) 14:28, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

If anyone could expand upon the meaning of this song from published works that would be wonderful; or even any debate that might exist about the meaning or any quote from Bernie Taupin himself about what it means. One of the inconsequencial enigma's of our time, but I want to know...help!!

The lyrics aren't that inscrutable ...

The article seems to make the lyrics more difficult than they seem, for example, describing "Alvin Tostig" as "semi-non-existent." He isn't "semi-non-existent"; he's a fictional character who exists only in the context of the song. --Metropolitan90 04:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Taupin is from Wessex as was the real-life Tostig, Earl of Wessex, from whom "Alvin" may be fictionally descended. Taupin may also have been using a name very similar to futurist Alvin Toffler, whose Future Shock was making a big impression at the time; it makes sense in some readings of this yes, hard to fathom song. Wasted Time R 04:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

try this

The meaning of the lyrics: Levon wears his war wound like a "crown", because he was used as a "pawn" in warfare. A pawn advancing to the enemy's home rank receives a "crown", so his head injury makes him fixate on elite status symbols and disrespect populist religious symbols. (Which is another way of fixating on religious symbols.)

Levon sells "cartoon balloons", which are an absurd and low-status way to make money. His family business "thrives" because he has the stamina and obstinacy to promote vacuous party supplies endlessly about town.

Levon calls his child "Jesus" (not "hay-soos", the Spanish pronounciation, or "Joshua", the common English version) because he "likes the name". He is fixated on religion in a way that removes his ability to quietly respect religion, like anyone else.

Levon sends Jesus to the "finest school in town" because he is fixated on status. He lives in a garage by the motorway, counting his money like a miser, because his fixation diverts his money from his own comforts to the status of his children. Like his noble father, he is forcing himself, through his disabilities, to follow "in tradition with the family plan".

And Jesus doesn't need this; he needs a father who is simple and loving and not messed up. As Jesus sits on the porch swing (in front of a motorway!) and lets cartoon balloons (his family's precious resource) "fly" out over the cars, he imagines flying up with them and going to the Morning Star, "Venus".

"Venus" is also the name of a god; Jesus is inheriting his father's fixations even as he dreams of utterly rejecting them. He is growing up an emotional "pauper", the son of a "pawn", and again in tradition with his family's plan.

So Levon's disability causes him to believe too strongly in things that healthy people should take lightly. He shall be Levon; he shall believe on.

That wasn't really the take i had of the song- above all it strikes me as a song about intergenerational conflicts in values and ideas. Levon is a nationalist (wearing his war wound like a crown= taking pride in his contribution to his country), has conservative social values (about coveting money, power, status). Levon appears to want to pass on this ideology to his son, Jesus, who is alienated and wishes to escape i.e. wishing to go to venus, taking a balloon to go sailing off while levon slowly dies.

this intergenerational divide was particularly salient during the 1960's-70's as it was a time of sweeping social changes.

food for thought

-Ron

--Phlip

Pawn

"Levon wears his war wound like a crown" refers to being used as a "pawn" in warfare"

Actually the "pawn" referred to in the statement "he was born a pauper to a pawn" refers to Alvin Tostig, not Levon. Levon is the "pauper." If he was born poor, that may explain why he spends his days counting his money.

I agree with the above statement. The "He" in "He was born a pauper to a pawn..." refers to Levon, therefore Levon is the pauper and Alvin is the pawn. Tzittnan 19:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The song is not a computer program with exact wiring between all the parts. Levon, not "Alvin Tostig", has a war wound, hence he was used as a pawn, and crowned, regardless whether Alvin Tostig was also used as a pawn. But when the second verse discusses the son Jesus, the lyric "a pauper to a pawn" could refer to him, too. In tradition with the family plan. --Phlip

Source template

I added the source template. Particularly the interpretation of the song must be sourced, or it cannot remain. Anchoress 01:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Noticed that there are now references. Some of the content still isn't sourced but I'll flag items individually and remove the template. Also, one of the sources, a yahoogroup isn't ideal. Ideally, a credible source can be procured. Anchoress 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If I may interject, I believe BOTH Alvin and Levon are "pawns". Indisputably, Levon is a soldier. He has a war wound. Also, he is a strong believer in passing on traditional roles. Perhaps his father was also a soldier. A war did begin right when he was born. It is highly likely that his father was called upon to fight in this war. Most soldiers' families remain fairly poor. Therefore, the title "pauper" is self-explanatory.

Alternatively, perhaps Levon's wound is from an internal psychological battle. It is possible that Alvin, the original "pawn", died in the actual war. ---Kelly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.94.44 (talk) 02:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

History in article

The article puts the meaning of the song in the history section. I don't think this is the proper place. Also, this part says thats the son Jesus is born on Christmas Day, but it is Levon that is born on Christmas Day.Vikingboy0129 20:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the history thing. I placed the references tag in February, I'm back now to remove it and do some tweaking. Re; the Jesus thing, I'll flag it. It seems from the lyrics that the Christmas Day line is referring to Levon, but some references on the lyric interpretation would be good. Anchoress 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Christmas Day

I believe that it is in correct to assert that "His son, irreverently named "Jesus" ... was born on Christmas Day". It's very clear in the song that Levon was born on Christmas Day. Which could be another reason for his religiousness. I understand that the hook occurs the second time right after a line about Jesus, but assuming that one followed the other would suggest that Levon and Jesus are brothers and we know that isn't the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.245.30 (talk) 01:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment deleted

I left a contribution to this subject yesterday and see that it appears to have been deleted today. No explanation has been offered so I can only assume someone didn't like it. The comment was made, in the spirit of talk and intended as a positive contribution to this subject. It was not intended to cause any offense or upset. Under the circumstances I will not attempt make any further contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surfingus (talk • contribs) 04:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Your comment did not seem to discuss sourced material for the article. I removed it as "chat" about the subject of the article, in line with our talk page guidelines. For further information, please refer to the notice I had left on your talk page at that time. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Improving this article

@JG66: Now that you de-PRODded the sample, I guess I have to find sources and other ways to reluctantly improve the article and the sources especially in order to justify use of the sample... unless the effort fails. However, this would also put me under further stress and consumes more time than it should. Also, I don't know how much my brain can handle much work.... unless I have to reduce multitasking? Taking the matter about using samples to a central discussion? It's been done before, like last month, two months ago, and fourteen months ago. I'm unsure how re-discussing this will benefit much. George Ho (talk) 10:50, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'm not overly interested in the stress you're under, what your brain can or can't handle, the threat to your multitasking abilities, etc.

Thank you for linking to those previous discussions. Given that there does seem to have been some support there for losing these samples, unless they're adequately supported by third-party commentary, can I suggest you open an RfC and get an answer once and for all. It's the picking off individually I object to (and it doesn't seem you're too eager to inform the uploaders either). If the outcome of a new RfC means we ditch the lot across the encyclopedia – ie, forget the idea of a sample being justified to help identify the subject of a song article – then fine, because at least it's been formally decided by consensus. And hopefully there would be plenty of editors weighing in. JG66 (talk) 11:24, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I recently have left the notifying stuff to one of bots who can notify them on my behalf. Oh... um... I thought about going to WP:VPIL first before starting an RfC. If RfC right away, then shall it occur in WP:VPP or WT:NFC... or where else? George Ho (talk) 11:32, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Almost forgot: some other samples are still listed/debated at FFD, so I'll wait until those remaining discussions close. --George Ho (talk) 11:37, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'd say close those FFDs if it's still possible, for the very reasons I mentioned above: it's a project-wide issue and should be treated as such. I think it annoys some other editors too, this one-by-one approach, depending on who's paying attention at any given time. I'd welcome some clarity on this issue, anyway, and would be happy to go with what we all decide.

It concerns song articles primarily so the most logical venue (to me) would be WP Songs or perhaps Music. Obviously, both projects should be notified. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 12:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Matter taken to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs#Using samples in song articles (pre-RfC). --George Ho (talk) 06:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources

(edit conflict) Following sources for others to check for reliability and use:

• Book about Elton: https://www.google.com/books/edition/His_Song/RBN6mKz83kgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki&pg=PA42&printsec=frontcover&bsq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki
• Another book about Elton: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Elton_John_Fifty_Years_On/HUeqDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki&pg=PT36&printsec=frontcover&bsq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki
• Book about Levon Helm: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Levon/N6C8DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki&pg=PT214&printsec=frontcover&bsq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki
• Book about cover versions: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Who_Did_It_First/4egLBAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki&pg=PA124&printsec=frontcover&bsq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki
• Songbook of Elton's songs: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Little_Black_Songbook_Elton_John/TovHDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki&pg=RA3-PA1980&printsec=frontcover&bsq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki
• Book about rock music: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Philosophy_at_33_1_3_Rpm/8bgaBzAh03oC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki&pg=PA34&printsec=frontcover&bsq=levon%20%22elton%20john%22%20-wiki
• Article about one of "farewell tours": https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ct-ent-elton-john-farewell-tours-20220205-e67ge2jjnzbsjf6jilr3obrlem-story.html

George Ho (talk) 11:32, 23 February 2022 (UTC)