Talk:Lionel Messi/Archive 23

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Number OF Uefa Champions League

According to UEFA official website Lionel Messi has three UCL not four. So please change it. Loudsheer (talk) 12:07, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

added a note--FMSky (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Please remove the 2006 UCL from honours, as it was not won by Messi. There are some rules of UEFA, that shows Messi did not win it. Loudsheer (talk) 13:26, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

It's most likely to a mistake by the person who published that article on the UEFA website. You don't have to necessary play in the final to be considered a Champions League winner. Messi played multiple games in that campaign, therefore his 2006 title is legit. --Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 17:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

He didn't play in the QF, SF or Final (and not all of the group games), so I think UEFA probably have this correct. Black Kite (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Lionel Messi is a four time UCL winner . Change it back. 82.15.152.68 (talk) 08:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Applying the same logic, Pele didn't won the 1962 World Cup because he got injured and didn't play in all those stages. 2A02:14F:1EF:D723:FCF2:EB47:3FF3:776B (talk) 05:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

You don’t have to play in any of those to win it, just the KO stages, which he did in the R16. So he technically won four. Stop changing this. Weplist (talk) 09:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I think you've made up the part about having to play in the knockout stage to be considered a winner. I believe as long as a player is included in the 25-man 'A' squad for the Champions League at any point in the season, they are considered a winner; any players named in the 'B' squad (no older than 21 on 1 January during the season in question and registered with the club for the last X years) should also be considered winners if they make appearances. – PeeJay 09:37, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

The part about having to play in the knockout stages is one I’ve heard from someone who previously worked in UEFA but have no source for, and might have changed. Either way UEFA itself lists Messi as a winner in 2006 ( Source UEFA: https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0271-143eb8578b52-ef62f1a96d02-1000--players-with-most-champions-league-titles-benzema-carvajal-m/ ) even if he didn’t play in the final, and Jamal Musiala who played 0 UCL minutes is also considered a winner for Bayern’s 19/20 season ( Source: https://www.transfermarkt.us/jamal-musiala/leistungsdaten/spieler/580195/plus/0?saison=2019 ) and Jamal’s Wikipedia article even has him listed as such. Weplist (talk) 09:43, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

??? that source you listed https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0271-143eb8578b52-ef62f1a96d02-1000--players-with-most-champions-league-titles-benzema-carvajal-m/ does NOT say he has 4 UCL --FMSky (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes it does:

"Several other players have four titles to their name but only three final appearances:

Lionel Messi: 2006*, 2009, 2011, 2015 (Barcelona)

Gerard Piqué: 2008*, 2009, 2011, 2015 (Manchester United, Barcelona)

Raphaël Varane: 2014, 2016*, 2017, 2018 (Real Madrid)

Xavi Hernández: 2006*, 2009, 2011, 2015 (Barcelona)

(*Did not play in the final)" 2A02:C7C:640D:DB00:E815:957E:F9F4:5780 (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

yes, have you noticed the *.. this in combination with "Messi has won the Champions League three times – in 2009, 2011 and 2015" (https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0242-0e97e0ac1cb3-eef786ff788c-1000--lionel-messi-what-records-does-he-hold/ ) makes it pretty clear --FMSky (talk) 20:24, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have noticed. The star serves to indicate that Messi did not play in the 2006 Final but has four titles.

Regarding the other link, there are multiple posts below. 2A02:C7C:640D:DB00:E815:957E:F9F4:5780 (talk) 21:00, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

To argue against him having four titles is agenda driven. Stop this nonsense. 82.15.152.68 (talk) 09:57, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

It was won by Barcelona and Messi was part of team, played in the R16, and even scored in the group stage. His contribution wasn't big as in the other titles, but technically it doesn't matter. 2A02:14F:1EF:D723:FCF2:EB47:3FF3:776B (talk) 05:19, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 May 2023

Messi has won UEFA Champions League 4 times, i dont think a player should play all the games in the tournament to be considered champion, he was in the Squad !! Mufsin Moosa (talk) 06:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Heart ^(talk) 06:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Messi has 4 UCL titles to his name officially by UEFA

Messi has 4 UCL honours officially on his name recognised by UEFA, the 2006 champions league still counts according to them as seen here https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0252-0e98c715bb79-dea77f56e2bd-1000--champions-league-final-records-and-statistics/

Please change his honours from 3 to 4 UCL but with an asterisk that he did not play in the final. 89.241.178.208 (talk) 10:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. This has been declined multiple times, as there is no consensus to make this change. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both very hot topics on the internet with ongoing debates as to who’s better. With figures as large as they are, both of their fanbases will go to extreme lengths to demean the other and push an agenda which makes it difficult to reach consensus.

The link I sourced is from UEFA itself which states that Messi has 4 UCL’s to his name despite not playing in the 2006 final. The compromise and edit that would make the most sense is that Messi has 4 UCL titles to his name instead of 3, with an asterisk or note that he did not appear in the 2006 final squad due to injury.

Further proof is that Messi was also given a UCL medal for the 2006 victory. It seems strange to change his honours from 4 to 3 UCL based on an article when the consensus before was universally accepted that Messi had 4 and even on the UEFA website bar the article it states he has 4.

As I said earlier, consensus will be difficult to reach due to an agenda being pushed by the large fanbases of Lionel Messi and Rival player Cristiano Ronaldo but I think there is an underlying fact of the matter.

The UEFA website itself recognises Messi with 4 UCL’s titles to his name as seen here, though with an asterisk that he did not appear in the final

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0271-143eb8578b52-ef62f1a96d02-1000--players-with-most-champions-league-titles-benzema-carvajal-m/

He has been awarded a UCL medal for 2006 and Mainstream website like TransfrMarket and Football database recognise Messi as having 4 UCL still also. 89.241.178.208 (talk) 13:10, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

• I can assure you that Wikipedia doesn't care about the Ronaldo or Messi fan clubs, it works on consensus and the majority of reliable sources. As the reply above says, at the moment there is no consensus to make this change. Black Kite (talk) 14:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  May I ask what other source bar the one UEFA article states Messi has 3 UCL instead of 4? 89.241.178.208 (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  UEFA Official website itself says that Messi has three UCL. What more can you ask for? Loudsheer (talk) 14:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  The same website also says he has 4 as I linked.

  https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0271-143eb8578b52-ef62f1a96d02-1000--players-with-most-champions-league-titles-benzema-carvajal-m/

  “…while several other players have four titles to their name but only three final appearances:

  Lionel Messi: 2006*, 2009, 2011, 2015 (Barcelona)”

  why do you choose not to engage with this section here?

  it clearly states he has 4 titles to his name. 89.241.178.208 (talk) 14:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  What reliable sources? I have posted multiple links elsewhere therefore everything below can be verified:

  The FIFA Statute is clear that UEFA is obligated to comply with the decisions of FIFA:

  “Each confederation shall have the following rights and obligations:

  (a) to comply with and enforce compliance with the Statutes, regulations and decisions of FIFA.”

  FIFA recognises Messi as a 2006 winner. That, alone, is sufficient to amend Messi’s page.

  However, focusing on UEFA, the Regulations of the UEFA Champions League dictate the rules of the competition. The 2005/06 Regulations are clear:

  Quota

  - 15.08 The number of eligible players which a club is entitled to field is restricted to 25 (List A) for the entire season.

  - 15.09 Youth players do not count as part of the squad referred to in 15.08 and may be registered with UEFA at any time (List B). A youth player is defined as any player born on or after 1 January 1984 and who has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday by the time he is registered with UEFA.

  Deadlines

  - 15.10 The player lists have to be submitted through the national association to UEFA by the following fixed deadlines:

  -- 6 July 2005 (24.00 hours CET): for all matches in the first qualifying round;

  -- 21 July 2005 (24.00 hours CET): for all matches in the second qualifying round;

  -- 4 August 2005 (24.00 hours CET): for all matches in the third qualifying round;

  -- 1 September 2005 (24.00 hours CET): for all matches as from the first match in the group stage.

  (Note: subsequent Regulations have amended line 4 as: “for all further matches from the first match in the group stage up to and including the final.)

  Subsequent registration

  - 15.12 For all matches from the start of the first knock-out round, a club may register a maximum of three new players for the remaining matches in the current competition, provided such players are eligible to play for the club on that date. Such registration must be completed by 1 February 2006 at the latest. This deadline cannot be extended.

  Messi was either registered by September 1 or September 14, 2005, depending on whether he was registered under list A or B (youth players). List B players were exempt from the September 1 deadline. However, as Messi played against Werder Bremen on September 14, he would have been registered by that date.

  He played against Chelsea on 22 February and 7 March, 2006 (when he was injured) and therefore could not be replaced as his injury occurred after the 1 February deadline. He remained registered for the remainder of the competition.

  Even if he could be replaced, he did not need to be replaced as Barcelona only registered 22 players for the competition and three new players would not cause Barcelona to exceed the maximum of 25 to necessitate unregistering a player.

  As a registered player, he was included in Barcelona’s 22-man squad for the final. Barcelona were awarded 25 medals (per the Regulations). Messi received a medal (per interviews).

  The Regulations overrule an article on UEFA’s website, and FIFA overrules both, and yet the source with no actual authority is being treated as decisive? Highly suspect. 2A02:C7C:640D:DB00:3882:5145:3517:AC77 (talk) 14:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  This is original research. Please Read WP:OR Loudsheer (talk) 14:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  No reliable published sources? The sources are here:

  FIFA Statute:

  https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/5eb2b45e547ff39f/original/ndfxogwkoukoe4dm3uk0-pdf.pdf

  Regulations of the UEFA Champions League 2005/06:

  https://kassiesa.net/uefa/files/2005-uefa-cl-rules.pdf 2A02:C7C:640D:DB00:3882:5145:3517:AC77 (talk) 14:50, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  Dude go look at that LoudSheer guys history, made an account 4 months ago, amended a post on the Cristiano wiki page and then went for Messi’s UCL title immediately after.

  literally just as I thought, this whole thing is agenda driven, no point in trying to convince him, nothing you can say, present or do that will convince him otherwise. 89.241.178.208 (talk) 14:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done In hindsight that shouldn’t have been altered to three in the first place as it was a breach of WP:undue weight by referring to a solitary article (which a previous editor stated it conveniently fell on 1 April (whether that was coincidence or not who knows)) that went against a swathe of publications, UEFA included, and the common belief of those in the sport, and those who follow it. Nampa DC (talk) 17:10, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

UEFA official website clearly says

Messi has won the Champions League three times – in 2009, 2011 and 2015 (all with Barcelona). He was also a regular for the Spanish club when they won the trophy in 2006 but was not part of their squad for the final.

Why you changed that to four? I mean the official UEFA website's record is much more valuable than third party websites. Loudsheer (talk) 17:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

A solitary article that contradicts every other source, including UEFA, is a breach of undue weight: “articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects”. If one article says A, and every other article says B, we go with B. Nampa DC (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

yes agree, how much clearer than literally saying "he has won it 3 times" does it have to be? and a UEFA website is more reliable than ESPN. this whole thing about FIFA statutes is WP:OR by the way--FMSky (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

We don’t promote a fringe viewpoint. UEFA has consistently stated he’s won it four times (likewise every single other publication). Nampa DC (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Official UEFA website promoting FRINGE contents? strange! Loudsheer (talk) 18:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

UEFA literally has a separate Messi's page where they posted it. Loudsheer (talk) 18:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

If it’s one article that contradicts every single other article published by UEFA, including from the UEFA Champions League on Messi’s four CL titles, then yes, it’s fringe. Nampa DC (talk) 18:35, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0271-143eb8578b52-ef62f1a96d02-1000--players-with-most-champions-league-titles-benzema-carvajal-m/

Here is the same website UEFA saying he has 4 to his name 89.241.178.208 (talk) 17:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes and just ignore the other statement completely, sounds like a great idea --FMSky (talk) 17:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Genuinely one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen. I understand it’s difficult when your idol has been cast out of Europe, abandoned by his country and left to be forgotten in an irrelevant league but to take that out by trying to re write history on Messi? Wow, just wow.

Here is says on the UEFA website itself that he does indeed have 4 titles to his name. I’ve sent this link about 4 times now, I wonder when you’ll engage with the part that says

“…while several other players have four titles to their name but only three final appearances:

Lionel Messi: 2006*, 2009, 2011, 2015 (Barcelona)”

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0271-143eb8578b52-ef62f1a96d02-1000--players-with-most-champions-league-titles-benzema-carvajal-m/ 89.241.178.208 (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks for fixing it. 89.241.178.208 (talk) 17:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Olimpia Award

Could someone add the three Olimpia Awards, 2011, 2021 and 2022? Thank you. Pepepotamo53 (talk) 02:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Number of Supercopa de España titles

According to Barcelona official website, Messi won the Supercopa de España eight times, including in 2005 (although he was not part of the squad). Thus, the Honors section should be updated accordingly. Ref: https://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/football/first-team/players/4974/lionel-messi 2A0D:6FC0:883:BF00:80DA:56C:3083:7E07 (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I also thinking the same way LMAO. Messi won Supercopa de Espana 8 times. Penyuntinghandal (talk) 05:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

This has already been dealt with in a previous discussion. Consensus was that someone can't win a title without playing in the competition (in this case two games) at all, whatever their club say. That's not like the CL discussion, where he at least played in the qualifying rounds. Black Kite (talk) 08:15, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Here is the discussion, by the way. Black Kite (talk) 08:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Add messi statue & baton

add messi honours comnebol statue and baton of world football KingBaba99 (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Legality

His full legal name is Luis Lionel Andres Messi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Majmal28 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Most decorated player of all time

Worth mentioning that he is the most decorated player of all time, tied with Dani Alves, in the opening section. 2A00:23C7:999C:5901:F505:DE41:D4DA:C92B (talk) 20:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes KingBaba99 (talk) 06:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

This would need a reliable source. Black Kite (talk) 08:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

source: counted his trophies 84.68.90.70 (talk) 18:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

LOL. Try this - WP:RS. Black Kite (talk) 18:37, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Messi's UCL titles

Messi has won 3 Uefa Champions Leagues [1]https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0242-0e97e0ac1cb3-eef786ff788c-1000--lionel-messi-what-records-does-he-hold/ Xxxmaqa (talk) 21:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Wrong. He won 4. 82.15.152.68 (talk) 11:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

He won 4 times. He assisted an goal against Chelsea LOL Penyuntinghandal (talk) 06:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Supercopa de Espana

Messi won Supercopa de Espana in 2005. Messi is part of 2004/2005 Barcelona squad. He received the winning medal. Penyuntinghandal (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

• A previous discussion reached consensus that this should not be included. Black Kite (talk) 08:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Messi didn't play in the 2005 Supercopa, he wasn't even on the bench, and his involvement in the 2004/05 season is completely irrelevant. As @Black Kite says, we've discussed this multiple times and it doesn't need discussing again. – PeeJay 19:59, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 June 2023

To change what club Messi is at as he now plays for inter miami in the mls 81.98.3.95 (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• See section above. Black Kite (talk) 19:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Grammatical correction

This line under Inter Miami is grammatically incorrect: "or be responsible it". TNM101 (talk) 13:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

 Someone else just fixed that. Next time, please make sure to include an edit request template so that your request can be properly referenced so that us reviewers can find it easily. Thanks! Cocobb8 (talk) 16:02, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I didn't know that. Thanks TNM101 (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome! Cocobb8 (talk) 16:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 June 2023

Major League Soccer (MLS) has added Lionel Messi profile to their website: (https://www.mlssoccer.com/players/lionel-messi/) so I think it be better to but it into (External links) 154.180.226.3 (talk) 18:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done External link to the MLS website profile added. OfTheUsername (talk) 00:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: regardless of whether Messi has been formally/officially signed to Inter Miami or any other club, MLS is still a major league with a profile of him. OfTheUsername (talk) 00:37, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 June 2023

Add Inter Miami in the senior career section, because he left Paris Saint-Germain. 119.18.1.25 (talk) 09:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: As the section about the transfer explains, the deal is not finalised yet. Actualcpscm (talk) 09:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 June 2023 (2)

Please change "Widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time" to "Widely regarded as the greatest players of all time". 2603:8080:1300:FC5A:9942:18CC:13A3:7BA5 (talk) 17:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

unsourced --FMSky (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2023

Under the psg category it should say 2021-2023 not 2021-present Joeste656 (talk) 16:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

He is still contracted to PSG. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 16:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2023

Messi has joined inter Miami 2A02:C7C:56E5:7900:C0FD:798C:67F:6B3 (talk) 00:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi there! As mentioned in the sections above, there will need to be a reliable source that confirms he has officially left his current team and officially begins on his new team.

See WP:RS for additional information on finding a source that can confirm this information before submitting an edit request that states "Please change X to Y" so that the edit can be made quickly and easily with a reliable source.

All the best, Pedantical (talk) 02:57, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

it has been confirmed by barcelona on their website: https://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/football/first-team/news/3532021/fc-barcelona-wishes-lionel-messi-the-best-of-luck-in-his-new-professional-phase

and on inter miamis accounts on social media and fabrizio romano 96.56.100.118 (talk) 14:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)