Talk:List of Eagle Scouts/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Arthur Shelton Inclusion

Arthur Shelton, I have to say, is the first Eagle Scout I have ever heard and his actions provide an interesting perspective of how Eagle Scouts should be viewed (as not all scouts are good). More info of his actions are listed here: http://www.parallelpac.org/murder.htm. I can say that he is a very notable Eagle scout. I had never heard of Eagle Scouts until I read that article. 74.103.8.249 19:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

His only claim to notability is that he committed a murder. There are thousands of those a year. Notability for wiki purposes seems borderline to best to me.Rlevse 19:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Not all Eagle Scouts are notable and not all murderers are notable. Add the two and they are still not notable. There is a list on Rotten.com. Several cannot be verified one way or the other and the others like Altstadt just aren't notable. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Eugene Cheatham

Anyone feel this entry would not be notable?

• Eugene Cheatham, Jr (deceased); Air Force Lieutenant Colonel, one of the Tuskegee Airmen, fighter pilot during World War II and the Korean War, received Eagle Scout at age 88.
  • John Wilkens (2004-08-07). "At 88, veteran to get Eagle Scout award". San Diego Union-Tribune. Retrieved 2006-01-11. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  • "Eugene Calvin Cheatham, Jr". Arlington National Cemetery. Retrieved 2006-01-11. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think he's notable because of his military career, but I disagree with him being awarded Eagle because he chose not to go to the BOR. Him not making it in 1930 was his own doing, no one else's. But, BSA approved it, so it's a done deal.Rlevse 18:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

 Done --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Legacy of Honor

There is a website for the book. Suggest that the reference link be changed. [1] --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

done.Rlevse 15:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Kevin Sterne

He may not make notability, but Kevin Sterne was the young man whose photo was on the front pages as he was carried out of Norris Hall at Virginia Tech. He saved his own life when he applied a tourniquet fashioned from an electrical cord after he was shot through the femoral artery.[2] --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Kevin Sterne has an article, but it is up for deletion. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It was redirected to a list.Rlevse 02:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Dan Beard

Should Daniel Carter Beard be considered an Eagle Scout? He was awarded a gold Eagle Scout badge in 1922. Peterson's The Boy Scouts: An American Adventure has a photo on page 27 of Dan Bead and B-P. This was taken in 1937 and shows both of them wearing the Silver Buffalo and "Uncle Dan" is quite clearly wearing an Eagle Scout badge. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Good question, ask Terry Lawson at BSA if he's on the Eagle roll at National, that'd settle it for sure.Rlevse 15:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Mitt Romney

He is not an Eagle Scout, see [3] and two separate threads on his talk page of his article. Rlevse 22:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Email from Romney's staff dated 7 June 2007:

Hi Randy,

Thank you for contacting the Romney for President Campaign. Governor Romney has been involved in Boy Scouts; however he is not an Eagle Scout.

Again, thank you for your interest. Please feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions/comments regarding Governor Romney.

Sincerely,

Sarah

Romney for President Rlevse 10:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Berger

I added Prof. Lee R. Berger to the list of notable scouts and he was subsequently deleted. He is an explorer for National Geographic and the Reader in Human Evolution and the Public Understanding of Science at the University of the Witwatersrand. He won the Honor Medal for saving a life from the Boy Scouts of America. You can see his web site at www.profleeberger.com I believe he should be included.

Gladysvale 12:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

As noted in the talk box at the top of this page, a citation is required for each entry. You are welcome to add him with the cite. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The citation you added has no mention of Eagle Scout. I tagged the entry pending a proper reference.--Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I almost give up but not quite - I thought I had a proper reference!!! He is also listed in Wikepedia under Lee R. Berger (which I highlighted) and is noted as an eagle and honor medal winner. What did I do wrong that got the listing eliminated as "no citation" - I'm not clear - help!!!

Gladysvale 15:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Your link at [4] has no mention of Berger being an Eagle Scout, so it is not a good reference. I did a Google search for "Lee R.Berger" and "Eagle Scout" with no results that are not from this article or derivatives. Your reference does not have to be a web article- if you have a journal article, newspaper article or the like that states that Lee R.Berger is an Eagle Scout then that is a good reference. If you can find anything of that nature, we can help you format it properly. Sorry to be so picky, but this is a Featured List and represents the highest of Wikipedia standards (and a lot of hard work on the part of several editors). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Found a proper reference from his article and added him to the list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

That same ref also says he has the Honor Medal. His article needs lots of work. Rlevse 14:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Jon Powers

Jon Powers is an Eagle Scout according to his site. [5] Unfortunately, there is not much left of his article after I chopped out the material copied directly from news articles. I suggest we wait and see how this article plays out. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

James Dale

The article on James Dale was recently deleted and redirect to Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. Per the guidelines, article deletion means removal form the list. Any discussion? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A unique case, he's a key in the legal article and named in the line. In the list or not is okay with me. FYI, I still say Sheehan doesn't need an article/in the list, his mom was famous, not him.Rlevse 16:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Oldest person to achieve Eagle Scout rank

Here's a new article on Walter Hart, an 88-year-old WWII veteran who was just honored as an Eagle Scout. Quite interesting; I wonder if he might be considered notable enough to include on this list, though he doesn't have a wikipedia article as of yet. Dr. Cash 04:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Very similar to Mitchell Paige who was 84 when he got the Eagle awarded. Paige has an article because he was a famous Marine who was awarded the Medal of Honor in WWII. Personally, until more is known Hart, I don't think this warrants an entry here just because of age. Perhaps on the Eagle Scout article itself though, which maybe a para could be added to the development section about the age history of Eagle Scouts, it's changed over the years. Adults used to able to get it outright.Rlevse 11:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

If you don't think being oldest to do something isn't notable in and of itself, Hart more than meets two of WP:BIO criteria: there are Primary source articles (secondary is the guideline minimum) and he achieved an award. Having a separate article is not necessary for inclusion in wikipedia. I believe there are guidelines especially for people notable for a single event to only be included in the article on that event. --J Clear 11:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be saying Hart did more than be the oldest Eagle. What is it? There are now about 1.8 million Eagle Scouts. It is true having an article is not required, but being notable is (see guidelines above on this talk page too). Keep in mind this is a featured list too. I'd like to get more input from others here as to list inclusion; if all he did was be the oldest Eagle, that would not meet article criteria though. Rlevse 12:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

ALSO--Eugene Cheatam was 88 when he got the Eagle, see thread above on this very same talk page, unless we determine exact birth dates and date of Eagle awarded, Hart might not be the oldest. It certainly muddles the waters.Rlevse 12:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

If we wanted to include the "oldest known person" to actually *earn* Eagle, then it would be Eugene Cheatham. As I understand it Paige and Hart had earned Eagle as youths, but simply had not been presented the award; Cheatham had to go though the board of review that he had missed as a youth. While the length of time is unusual for Paige and Hart, many Eagle Scouts have a court of honor well after earning Eagle. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The oldest person to have been awarded Eagle was technically Philo Farnsworth, born in 1906 and awarded in 2006. Unfortunately, he had died in 1971. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Spielberg description

The Spielberg description including his criticism of BSA's discriminatory membership practices was documented and sourced and cannot be removed just because it is unfavorable towards BSA. I am placeing it back in his description.Lasalle202 03:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Justinm1978 is correct, this is not the place for details of views on political stances. Removal has nothing to do with being unfavorable towards BSA, if that were true, people would attempt to remove it from his wiki article, which already discusses and footnotes his stance on this. This is a list for highlighting Eagles who have significant career achievements, not highlighting views on political or social stances. I've added the footnote you found to his wiki article, which already had one footnote on this.Rlevse 11:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

These descriptions are short and intended to summarize the person. They are generally based on the article lead-ins that summarize the points of the article. How is this one particular action central to his life and career? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Spielbergs relationship to the BSA board is in the introductary paragraphs of his article. It is central to his relationship to BSA and as a documented statement is improper to remove.207.69.137.38 13:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything about that in the intro to his article. It's not mentioned until the first body section. Making false statements won't help you at all.Rlevse 13:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are confusing the first section of the body of the article with the lead-in. Thanks for pointing this out, as that material does not belong under the Early life section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Fixed in the Spielberg article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If only items from the lead in are acceptable, then I will remove the reference to Speilberg instituting the Cinematography badge, since that is not part of Spielberg lead in either.207.69.137.7 23:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If the three of you are in such advert agreement, then it appears your mind accepts the premise. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No I am not in agreement. But if that is the current stylistic guide, then let us apply it equally.207.69.137.35 01:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

At four to one, your team has the lead. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Acutally, it's a dynamic Earthlink IP, so he gets a different IP each time, so it's really the same person, so he's actually outnumbered.Rlevse 02:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

People to investigate and potentially add

http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/eagle-scouts/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.129.251.50 (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

rottendotcom is not reliable and doesn't cite sources. Rlevse 17:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

We went through rotten.com and nndb.com ages ago— it is in one of the talk page archives. We used them as a list to investigate, but we rejected using them as a reference. There are folks that are listed on each that we do not include simply because they really aren't notable. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone given any consideration to the youngest Eagle Scout? I have heard that NESA/BSA does not support the finding of the youngest Eagle Scout in history. Perhaps the more reasonable title is the youngest "known" Eagle Scout. Has the Guinness Book of World Records recognized this honor? There seem to be so many claims of who is/was the youngest. I think this is a title that people are more curious about than the list of "most famous Eagle Scouts." MATTEOCHAN

You're right, there's no way to verify that. I personally know people that made it at just shy of 13 years old. BSA doesn't track by race either. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Unless there was documentation provided for the "youngest documented" - which might be outside the scope of this wikiProject. I thought is was worth a try, since I was 11 years, 7 months. Hard to beat. Matteochan (talk) 00:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you give me a timeline on that? Under the current system, you'd have be at most 10 y 7 m at Star and since you can't join prior to 10 y 6 mos... — Rlevse • Talk • 00:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

No problem. One of the things that helped me was that I attained Arrow of Light at around 9 years, 8 months. I checked all the dates in my Scout book. Born July 28, 1982. Became a Boy Scout June 11, 1992 (9 years, 10 months, 15 days). Tenderfoot / 2nd Class attained 12 August 1992 (two boards in the same night, 10 years, 16 days). 1st Class attained: 9 September 1992 (10 years, 1 month, 13 days). Star attained: January 14, 1993 (10 years, 6 months, 14 days). Life attained August 11, 1993 (11 years, 15 days). Attained Eagle: March 16, 1994 (11 years, 7 months, 17 days). 75.71.10.14 (talk) 12:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Links

While cleaning up references, I am finding a few dead links. I am marking these with {{dead link}} until we can get them fixed. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Lead-in

Should the lead-in be changed to indicate that the list also includes people who were notable prior to becoming eagle scouts (eg. Henry Nicols)? meamemg 01:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

don't think so, it doesn't matter if they made Eagle first or not. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if I was clear with what I was saying. Right now the article indicates that it is a list of "men who have become notable after earning Eagle Scout" (emphasis added), which is not true for all of the entries on the list. meamemg 20:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

ah, okay. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Article name

Frankly, I don't care which name we use. The problem is that drive-by editors change the name and don't bother to clean up. Here are the problems with the recent rename to List of notable Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America):

• Double redirects need to be fixed
• The article lead needs to be updated to the new name
• The talk page archives need to be moved; the move process does not move sub-pages
• The todo page needs to be moved

Note: I documented this issue at Help:Merging and moving pages after the last rename here

Arguments for either name:

• List of notable Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America): Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style:

When either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so. . . If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a reason that goes beyond mere choice of style.

• List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America): Per the naming convention at Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists), list titles should not include notable. The guideline here is not well written, but I would guess that since all WP content is supposed to reflect notability that including the wording is redundant

The list was just renamed in November and I had to do a bunch of cleanup and now we are at it again. When we decide which name to lock down, we need to ask that the other be protected so we can stop this foolishness. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Discuss:

• question We can actually lock it permanently? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

We can "salt" the redirect so that it requires an admin to make a move. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This move was made by a user that is only on wiki for a month. The correct thing to do here is remove "notable". LEt me know when we're ready and it'll only take a few minutes. Is it worth posting this faux paus on his talk page? I almost just did it. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I just updated Help:Merging and moving pages, as it amazingly did not mention that you just might need to update the lead sentence of the article. I will let the editor know the issues. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

• Move it to the desired name and salt the earth. --evrik ^(talk) 23:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Have we figured this out yet? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The guideline says not to use "notable" in list titles a they perforce must be notable to be on the list. I'll rename it back to without the "notable" and fix links I find. Let me know if I miss something. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to enter this conversation. The fact that the title does not say notable, it is indeed implying that the list is of all Eagle Scouts, which is not true. Now the guideline may say that all lists are notable (it would be very easy to argue that point though on wikipedia) so therefore a list title does not need to include "notable." However, it dosent seem any of you knew that until you looked up the guidelines. How many general wikipedia users (ie people that come here to gather information only) know that? I can sum it up for you, right around none of them. I am sort of new to the whole wikipedia editing thing, in fact Ive never editted anything, and at this point on make suggestions and such in discussion pages until I laern all the rules. But it seems like many "editors" have lost touch with common "readers" in that they assume the "readers" know all of the rules, when in fact many editors dont even know all the rules. Not even sure if it is possible for one person to know all the rules. So a "reader" would see this list, and in they didnt read the opening paragraphs, would never know that is was a noteable only list. Especially since the list already has a special designation for Distinguished Eagle Scouts. So guideline or no guideline, I think "notable" should be in the title. If it is not to be included in the title, than the first sentance should include an explaination before going into what an Eagle Scout is, which is actually here yet redundant to the Eagle Scout page.Xcalibur27 (talk) 20:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC) (Eagle Scout)

I tweaked the lead a bit. Articles are supposed to be able to stand alone, so we do need to explain the Eagle Scout a bit for those who are not familiar. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Edit notice

I added an edit notice that will now appear at the top of the article page when editing. Please let me know if it needs to be tweaked. The message is located at MediaWiki:Editnotice-0-List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) and uses {{editnotice}}. This is a new feature, but the MediaWiki message pages can be edited only by an admin. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Eagle Scout medal CFJ3.png

The image Image:Eagle Scout medal CFJ3.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• Image:Hillcourt and Baden-Powell.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --08:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Chris fixed already. Good. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Did Hillcourt too.14:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

To do

First, there is a clear consensus that simply being a contestant on Survivor does not make one notable, removing Burton Roberts. As it says these articles need creation, Mark Hass has already been created and Russell Henderson is a redirect, with consensus being that murderers generally don't get their own article. William G. Higgs was simply listed in the Eagletter and founded a company that does not have an article either. Really, my edits were not disruptive. Reywas92^Talk 02:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

A bit late to start a discussion. If you noticed one already had an article, you should have put him in the featured list, not start an edit war. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I noticed earlier this week that Hass has an article, but I cannot find a source that he is an Eagle Scout; I am still searching. I did a lot of cleanup on this talk page yesterday, cleaning up the archives and compacting the messageboxes; the todo page is next. When entries are removed from the todo page, they should be moved to the investigated page per the note at the top of the todo— this helps to track what we have done.

There are also some articles in the Eagle Scout category that are not on the list— that is my next task. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

OK: just finished my planned cleanup of the todo page. The entries that were removed were copied to the investigated entries page so we have a record that we looked at them. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Tableizing

Rlevse, I know you've done a lot of alumni FLs, but I'm not sure if ths one really needs to be converted into a table. The names are already in alphabetical order, so the only thing sortable is the the date. Already with Jay Zeamer, Jr. it seems the date he became an Eagle is unknown, and I'm sure the same is true with many others. There is nothing wrong with you taking the time to tableize the list, but I don't see it as a requirement. If you are going to continue, I suggest moving the DESA symbol from under the split Eagle Scout column to next to the name. Split columns don't always look very good. Cheers, Reywas92^Talk 02:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Table izing was a suggestion by Scorpion when he did the FL review. It also makes a better layout. I'll ask the code writer about moving the DESA icon. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I split the DESA column, but of course the Eagle Scout title now wraps. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 09:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"c." (meaning circa I presume) should come before the date and be italicized. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Not when it messes up the date sorting, cf TRM on one of those FLC reviews. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

In any case, it should be italicized. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Jim Morrison

I've heard that The Doors' Jim Morrison was an eagle scout, but I can't find a reference. Eagleapex (talk) 16:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Best source is to contact Eagle Scout Services at BSA HQ in Irving, TX. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

John L. Jerstad

I'm doing a little work on the article for Medal of Honor recipient John L. Jerstad and I came across a couple sources which say he was an Eagle Scout. In this article, "his sister says" he was an Eagle Scout, and an offline source I have (The Wisconsin Magazine of History) says "according to his mother" he was an Eagle Scout. It is possible his family was mistaken, so is there some official list that could verify whether he really was an Eagle Scout? — jwillbur 00:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Best source is to contact Eagle Scout Services at BSA HQ in Irving, TX. I doubt "mom" would meet WP:RS — Rlevse • Talk • 00:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Online NESA Eagle Scout directory

Now that NESA has an online directory on their web site and we can verify the date of any and all Eagle Scouts (i.e. Dan Beard 1915) are we able to use that as a reference source. It is not avialable to the public and therefor I'm not sure we can cite it. --Jdurbach (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

One to add?

• Charles Fleming (author)

--evrik ^(talk) 20:46, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Found a ref. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 21:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Images

Bring the images back. Really. --evrik ^(talk) 04:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

What images are missing? There are all sorts of images in the right margin. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:26, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• Funny, they weren't showing yesterday. --evrik ^(talk) 03:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

New article

Glen McLaughlin --evrik ^(talk) 05:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Added ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Hart

Joseph Patrick Hart is an eagle, I found a ref, here, added him to the needs article list linked here on the talk page, but he needs an article. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Phyliss Frye/Phillip Frye

Houston Mayor Annise Parker appointed a transgender, the first in Texas, as a judge. Normally, I would have forgotten about the article, but she was an Eagle Scout. While Phyliss Frye isn't notable otherwise, I'd thought I'd bring it up here to see if there was enough of a consensus that she is notable enough to be included.--Hourick (talk) 19:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

If they are notable enough to have an article and they are a verified Eagle Scout, they they meet the standards for the list. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 07:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Boy's Life Magazine

There should be a complete list of Eagle Scouts featured in On the Trail to Eagle Scout in Boy's Life Magazine. Are there any objections to that idea? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What idea? This is a list of over two million Eagles in Boys' Life? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:02, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No, that would be more like every Eagle Scout period. This segment in Boy's Life, which features particularly notable Eagle Scout Projects, features 1 Eagle Scout and his Service Project every 2 months or so. There is only 1 every 2 months and the segment has only been running for a couple of years, so an exhaustive list of those Eagle Scouts featured in On the Trail to Eagle would contain a manageable number. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not clear on what you want to do. If you want to include those names in the list, then I doubt they meet the notability standards. We have been requiring that all entries have articles in order to maintain the list quality. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about a separate list. The criterion of notability would be the segment's inclusion in Boy's Life Magazine, which itself has a Wiki Article. Such a separate list (mentioned on this Talk Page only because it and its own Talk Page have not yet been created) could link to an online archive of Boy's Life issues if such an archive exists. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I really don't see how the members of such a list would meet our notability standards. This would be more appropriate for ScoutWiki. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it would, but since the magazine is technically media and this is a magazine segment, it would be not entirely unlike having episode lists for TV shows, even when individual episodes have no separate Articles, which we already do. Besides it's the segment that would be first and foremost the subject and reason for an Article containing such a list, and it would be more notable as a whole than the Eagle Scout of any single feature of the segment. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Also, Gadget850, this is an exact quote from WP:Notability. "These notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article or list. They do not directly limit the content of an article or list." This quote proves that it is the list in general that 1st and foremost must be notable, and so your concern for the notability of individual members, apart from that of (in this case) the magazine segment on which the list is based, is misplaced. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I am unclear what is being suggested. Is it:-

1. Adding these Eagle Scouts to List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America), or
2. Creating List of Eagle Scouts featured in Boy's Life Magazine, or
3. Adding a section listing these Eagle Scouts in Boy's Life Magazine, or
4. something else?

I do not support (1) as the entries there have to have their own article or the list would get out of hand. I suspect (2) would not survive AfD as being non-notable. (3) should be discussed on the talk page of that article. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I was talking about 2, although I had not considered 3. In any case, I already cited a quote from WP:Notability earlier. That line explains how 2 might (and in my opinion should) survive such discussion. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 02:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Go for it. From this side of the Pacific it does not look notable to me. but let us see how it goes. --Bduke (Discussion) 05:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I also think notability is weak. You do need to nail it down: any Eagle Scout ever mentioned in Boys' Life or just featured in "On the Trail to Eagle Scout". ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 05:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Only featured in On the Trail to Eagle Scout; I thought I mentioned that earlier. The point is that, looking from here in the USA where BSA is rather than off in Australia, that segment looks like a notable Scouting phenomanon. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Today's Featured List

Now that featured lists are on the main page on Mondays, I am going to propose this for August 21, 1912 to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Eagle Scout Award. We need to fill out the following template and choose a representative image. This is a sample. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:20, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

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List of Eagle Scouts

Eagle Scout is the highest rank attainable in the Boy Scouting program division of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). Since it was first awarded in 1912, Eagle Scout has been earned by more than two million young men. The title of Eagle Scout is held for life, thus giving rise to the phrase "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle".

As of 2012, requirements include earning at least 21 merit badges, and demonstrating Scout Spirit, leadership and service and performing an Eagle Scout Service Project. Eagle Scouts are recognized with a medal and badge that visibly recognizes the accomplishments of the Scout. Eagle Palms are a further recognition, awarded for completing additional tenure, leadership and merit badge requirements. (Full list...)

Wikipedia:Today's featured list/submissions#List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America). ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:39, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Approved for August 20. Wikipedia:Today's featured list/August 20, 2012 ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 01:51, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Decline in quality

The quality of this list has declined. Many questions refs and sloppy formatting have crept in over time. It's a big task for just one editor to keep up with. I will fixing the formatting issues and removing shaky refs and the people that the correspond to.PumpkinSky talk 20:23, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Check the history, and you will see that I have done a lot of cleanup in prep for TFL. All links are good as of today, and I updated the access dates. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 21:12, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I did notice that. Lots of interlopers in the last year. I'm still finding stuff wrong. Ordnung muss sein.PumpkinSky talk 21:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Did my run through. Between you and I we've probably gotten 98% though I'm sure there's some stragglers out there still.PumpkinSky talk 22:04, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

For {{cite web}}, work is the website; publisher is rarely used. See the template doc. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 10:28, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. But methinks you're the only one that does it that way ;-) PumpkinSky talk 10:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Help:Citation Style 1#Work and publisher. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 10:41, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Yea, but all I'm saying I see few people do that. Most use pub for the site. Also, this: "|magazine=New York Times" is wrong. NYT is a newspaper, not a magazine.PumpkinSky talk 10:45, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Fixed the example, but it doesn't matter: in {{cite news}}, work, journal, periodical and magazine are aliases for the same parameter. {{cite web}} treats the web site as a work and the web page as a chapter. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:28, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Eagle Scout + MOH, 10 known now

There are TEN who have both awards. I have not found one source that lists all ten. I'll fix the wiki articles. This is counting Murray, who was never actually an Eagle but was given an honorary DESA for a reason I have not yet figured out. PumpkinSky talk 22:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Also note Paige and Fluckey got Eagle after they got the MOH. Counting all 10, that's 8 from WWII and 2 from Vietnam.PumpkinSky talk 22:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Charles P. Murray is not on the Master DESA list. I have never come across honorary DESA before. There is a William Paul Murray, Jr. who earned Eagle in 1934 and DESA in 1971, which matches with some web searches. I sent a question to NESA, but if they confirm this, then we would still need a reliable source. We have found other issue with the master list.

Olson has no references indicating he was an Eagle Scout. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 01:01, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I see it in the Olson source. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 01:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

You may be onto something with Murray. Do we know where this "honorary" idea came from? Olson has a ref here in this list and his article, I added a PDF from the state of S.DAK a few hours ago. The Eagle part is near the bottom of the PDF.PumpkinSky talk 01:12, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The Murray Issue

I can't find anything reliable saying he was an honorary DESA, though it's on his facebook and Arlington pages. Lots of Arlington stuff is good info, but I don't trust this one. BUT in this Congressional Record it says he made Eagle in Wilmington in 1934. I suggest we list him only as Eagle and not a DESA til better info is found. PumpkinSky talk 12:09, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree, although some of the CR wording makes me suspect it might be sourced from us. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

No doubt some of the CR came from us. I'll take care of this page and all the other article updates.PumpkinSky talk 13:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Here it the reply from National:

I couldn’t find a Charles P. Murray, Jr. in the Eagle database, so I checked the DESA database and couldn’t find him there either.

If he’s an Eagle Scout, someone would need to provide proof, because we do not have him in the records at national unless he went by a nickname or middle name at the time?

I’ve been in NESA for 15 years and we’ve never awarded an honorary DESA during that time. I haven’t found any reference in the NESA material to indicate that that’s ever been done, although we never know what councils might be creating and awarding out in the field. The DESA is a national award, so councils can’t award an honorary rank, although things like that happen all the time. We’ve had to contact a few councils over the years and ask them to stop awarding honorary Eagle ranks. There is no honorary Eagle rank, either.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:55, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I know exactly what they're talking about. I suggest you post that on Murray's talk page and then we clean up this list, his article and all the other MOH articles. PumpkinSky talk 20:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I added Murray in August 2011,[6] and referenced the DESA list. Where did I get that? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 21:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

No idea. Perhaps an honest goof. At any rate we need to do as said in my prior post. PumpkinSky talk 21:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Ref improvements needed

These entries are marked as DESA and use the DESA ref, but are not on the master list:

• Bagian
• Dold
• Lindsey
• Pocalyko
• Roe
• Suarez
• Walker, Scott

Other

• Chris Smith: marked as NOESA, but with DESA ref

We have a lot of entries with only the DESA ref, but no notability ref. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Who goes on this list?

It was fairly evident once I read through the list, and obvious once I clicked edit; however, the opening of the list is not very clear on who belongs. As a reader, my initial assumption was that every Eagle Scout who ever lived would be listed here. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It used to have "notable" in the title, but it was removed from this and many other lists because being notable is inherent for even being considered to be on a wiki list or having an article. As this is a FL, make life simple and only list people who have a wiki article and a solid reliable source. PumpkinSky talk 21:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

First, I apologize if the following appears confrontational. I reread it and it might seem like it does; however, I didn't intend that at all. This was just my attempt to fully explain my thought process. When I first saw the existence of the list, I specifically wondered why notable was missing from the title, this was before I even followed the link to the list. I was under the impression that because Eagle Scout is scouting's highest honor, someone had decided all eagle scouts should be listed here. It would be insanely long, but I was able to imagine why that decision might be made. Then I scanned the lead section of the list. It doesn't once mention who is included in the list or why they are included. MOS:LIST states that "If the title does not already clarify what the list includes, then the list's lead section should do so. Don't leave readers confused over the list's inclusion criteria or have editors guessing what may be added to the list." (emphasis mine) Editors aren't left guessing due to the very informative edit notice (the idea of which should be transferred to all lists); however, readers are. I would propose renaming this to List of notable Eagle Scouts or writing "This is a list of notable Eagle Scouts" somewhere in the lead or at the top of the list. Note that there is no universal list selection criteria. Instead, each list creates its own criteria (with limits of course). I will admit that per WP:NLIST, the criteria seems to be slightly more strict when referring to lists of people; however, there is wiggle room given by the section (note that it gives an example of one exception). I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the criteria of this list; however, I am saying that the idea that "being notable is inherent for even being considered to be on a wiki list" is incorrect. As such, there can be no assumption that readers will expect every person on a list of this sort to be notable. Finally, back to MOS:LIST, it does state that words like notable are normally excluded. I feel the use of the word normally means that we could use the word if we chose to do so. The Manual of Style offers the alternative of using the lead to make it clear that the list only contains notable members. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't WP:LISTPEOPLE cover who goes on this list? EricSerge (talk) 23:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The reader isn't aware of that. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Joe and Jane Reader don't know nor care diddly squat about wiki rules/policies. They just want a good article. There's no reason we need to expain them to the reader here nor in any other article. They're quite capable of seeing the importance of whose in the list on their own.PumpkinSky talk 23:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

MOS:LIST clearly says that a list article should explain who or what is in the list. Joe and Jane reader will be confused as to why this list of Eagle Scouts is lacking so many people. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:54, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

No more so than any other list of people. Why is this one different? See another FL: List of stutterers. Lots of people missing from that one too. There is no requirement such lists include every notable person. PumpkinSky talk 23:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This is probably asked above, but if we're only going to list certain (notable, I assume?) Eagle Scouts, why isn't this made clear in the introduction to the article? Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 10:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Not trying to be snarky or anything, but isn't that inherent in the title? As so with wiki notability, in no list do we say "this is a list of people who meet wiki notability". Perhaps you mean something else; I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. PumpkinSky talk 11:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I had dropped the issue, but I'll state again that MOS:LIST requires that the lists inclusion criteria be defined for Wikipedia. All that needs to be stated is "This is a list of notable individuals who have achieved the rank of Eagle Scout". It is entirely reasonable for a reader to believe that an article entitled "List of Eagle Scouts" will include every Eagle Scout. Ryan Vesey 12:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's an often not-followed rule as I can't even think of a list that does that off the top of my head--though I'm sure there are some; not to mention it's rather obvious and redundant from the title and being notable is required and inherent and "This is a list of notable individuals who have achieved the rank of Eagle Scout" is inaccurate as it's not a complete list, you'd need "partial" or the dynamic list template. To me this redundancy is not needed and is policy wonkery--why do we need to state the obvious?, but you guys do what you want, I'm letting this go. PumpkinSky talk 14:24, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

When I first got to wiki that rule existed, then it got dumped for the reasons I stated. Now it's back. One day the pendulum will swing the other way again. But again, do whatever you like with this.PumpkinSky talk 15:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

My point is that it's not "obvious" to the common reader, because they will expect a reason for why we aren't including every Eagle Scout. It's also not "obvious" even to regular Wikipedians, because I was expecting to come to this article to complain that there were non-notable people listed here... ;-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 08:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. PumpkinSky talk 10:42, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Returning the award

So it appears like a number of Eagle Scouts have returned their awards after various controversies. A reader left feedback requesting a list of those who have returned their award. Do we know if any notable recipients have returned their award? Ryan Vesey 02:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't.PumpkinSky talk 02:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

There is a map of all the people currently wearing the Inclusive Scouting Award Knot, which was designed to promote support for these controversies by being worn on active scouts/leaders' uniforms. Unfortunately, I do not know the accuracy of this, or how many of these people were Eagle Scouts that may/may not have returned their awards.k2trf (talk) 07:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

As a self-published source, in my mind, it should be taken with a grain of salt. EricSerge (talk) 14:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely agreed; the problem existing is that the BSA's list (if one exists for the public) would also be self-published, since they are acting as a private organization and therefore could curve it to be in their interests. :\ k2trf (talk) 02:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved, Notable not advised in titles and not required here. Inclusion criteria limiting list entries to persons with WP articles is sufficient. Mike Cline (talk) 18:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

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List of Eagle Scouts → List of notable Eagle Scouts – Having argued this point, I am making this request based on this feedback. MOS:LIST requires that a list define its requirements. I feel that in this situation, it would be easier to reformat the title to reflect the scope of the list rather than placing a message in the list itself to limit the scope. A message within the list will probably appear out of place.  Ryan Vesey 00:49, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support Removes invitation to do namechecking. Hill Crest's WikiLaser (Boom.) (talk) 01:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Namechecking? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I mean, adding names of non-notable people by those people in question to get "notable". Hill Crest's WikiLaser (Boom.) (talk) 00:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

• Does it really matter? It started out with "notable" in the title. Then it was taken out due to the policy that anyone listed in a wiki list is by definition notable. Now people want to put it back it. A few years from now they'll want to take it out again. All this see-saw policy change stuff does on things like this that really don't matter is cause havoc with redirects and stability. Sigh. It really doesn't matter. It'd be better if the policies on this penny-anny stuff were stable. Having notable in the title or article is redundant and unneccsary Sigh. Taking this off my watch list. Effort would be better spent improving the listings, not this stuff.PumpkinSky talk 02:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Weak oppose if we do this, we need to rename a very large number of list articles on Wikipedia. Regardless, this type of list needs the entries to be somewhat notable anyways, or else the entry would be expunged. It could always be stated in the intro section -- 76.65.128.252 (talk) 04:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The word "notable" was taken out for good reason. As the IP editor above says, if this is approved, then all other lists should be moved, or otherwise this one will stand out as different. It is perfectly acceptable that each entry should have an article. Those who support this move should argue elsewhere for a general introduction of the word "notable" in list titles. If they win that argument, then this one can be changed. --Bduke (Discussion) 05:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per typical Wiki naming conventions. WP list guidelines indicate you don't put in redlinked non-notables. Waste of time unless you want to change every single list of whatever people to be titled "notable" whatever people ... Montanabw^(talk) 06:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per standard list naming conventions. It likely will not matter what the title of the list is, as non-notable individuals are added to Notable recipients sections of articles on awards type articles everyday. If WP:Common Sense (there is no way we can have a list of over 2 million Eagle Scouts) does not guide editors, a title change will not likely solve this issue. EricSerge (talk) 13:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:LISTNAME: "Words like notable, famous, noted, prominent, etc. should not be included in the title of a list article." Even when the article was at List of notable Eagle Scouts, List of notable Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) or List of Famous Eagle Scouts it did not prevent the addition of entries that did not meet notability standards. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

And the article has an editnotice that clearly outlines the requirements for notability. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It's not about the editors, it's about the readers. Readers don't see the edit notice. In any case, this thing doesn't have a snowball's chance. We should probably close this and then we can insert a "this is a list of notable Eagle Scouts" similar to how List of Puerto Ricans does it. Ryan Vesey 15:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:LISTNAME. Anonymous feedback is no reason to ignore the MOS, and I don't see another compelling reason to do so in this case. --BDD (talk) 14:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose -- We do not have articles on people who are NN. Havign an article (or needing one) is a criterion for appearance. The need to limit it to notable people can be dealt with in the lead. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:37, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Famous Scouting Alumni

At the 2013 National Scouting Jamboree, the Scouting Alumni Association was handing out a pamphlet titled Famous Scouting Alumni. The pamphlet has short biographies of various people associated with the BSA. I have only skimmed through this, but the bios of Walter Cronkite and Henry Fonda both show them as Eagle Scouts- both of which we debunked. --  Gadget850 ^talk 12:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I found the note that Terry Lawson, Eagle Scout Service, National Eagle Scout Association, dated 09 June 2005, stating that Walter Cronkite, Henry Fonda, and Jimmy Stewart are not Eagle Scouts. --  Gadget850 ^talk 01:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)