Talk:List of Espada in Bleach

Now to merge these articles here.

Now that the Espada article has kicked off, can we decide merge consensus here? Sasuke9031 (talk) 13:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Not much has been revealed about Ulquiorra, and he hasn't been in the story for a while, so he should be merged. 88.109.88.55 (talk) 20:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the user above me since Ullquiorra has played a more significant part in the story then many other characters as of yet & it is only a matter of time before he reappears in the manga, thus giving him more material comes up for him, same goes for Grimmjow who is likely to become a main character if his past growth continues. So for now I say leave these two articles as they are Dark-Ace 20:12 26 January 2008 (AEST)

No doubt merge, because wikipedia is not a fortune cookie. He could die next chapter for all you know, so just merge both Ullquiorra and Grimmjow, for now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.246.65 (talk) 14:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Support merge. Both articles lack any out-of-universe information and are in-universe, fancruft, and plot. Once you get your articles looking like Naruto Uzumaki, Sasuke Uchiha, or Pikachu is there a reason to verify their existence. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 20:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Support merge for Ulquiorra - Why doesn't Kubo include any creation or developement design information?! Guh..all we have is the popularity polls, but that doesn't cover enough real world information. I don't support merging for Grimmjow though, reasons are given in the other discussion.--Hanaichi 11:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge for all arrancar - I haven't been on so I don't know where the discussion led to, in regards to all arrancar. But, would it be bette to merge all arrancar here? σмgнgσмg 23:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess not, because then List of Bleach hollows would be so short. σмgнgσмg 00:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we add the arrancar triva? it would help brighten things up Estarrol (talk) 00:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

sure the guy who beat ichigo without ever releasing is going to die next chapter. i say leave those two where they are.151.199.192.137 (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is this even being discussed? I'm really surprised. Ulquiorra and Grimmjow are as significant to this arc as Byakuya and Kenpachi were to the Soul Society. These are definately two characters who deserve their own page. What's the fundamental difference that's making people say "Hey, all espada should be clumped together in one place!"?Ashenge 18:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge for Ulquiorra - To be honest, Ulquiorra doesn't actually have much of a role in the series, he has only really been in one proper fight--Pwned by Numyht (talk) 10:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Opppose merge for Grimmjow, as he's clearly one of the main characters of current arc. Weak support for Ulquiorra, since while he seems like he'll probably be important for the next arc, he's been secondary in the current one. — Red XIV ^(talk) 17:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Opppose merge We should put Nnoitra back on his page ! I mean he has been a very important character and we're starting to have a lot of informations about him. He's releasing this weeks so pictures of him will definitely be necesarry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.212.86.125 (talk) 15:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Please, let's not get into another Itachi debate. Regarding the merges that have already taken place, please wait a little while (about 2 months) until things settle down over at the WP:FICT dispute. If you want to deal with it sooner, go help them out. Sasuke9031 (talk) 17:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Support merge for Ulquiorra - Not enough information would constitute an individual article. σмgнgσмg^(talk) 12:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Support merge for Ulquirra - Other than a few explained ablilities and a minor role in the plot, theres not much known about him as yet.

Oppose merge for Grimmjow - Grimmjow has been a major part of the plot since the Arrancar arc. We know the character's personality, history and a wide range of his abilities. Ditch88 (talk) 08:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge for Grimmjow He seems to be a kind of Renji of the arrancar. Though he's obviously not as main a character as Rukia or the actual Renji, there is a lot more revealed about his character than the typical Espada so far. I believe he will become an even more major character than he already is. Which, I believe, is enough for him to have his own page.

Oppose merge for Grimmjow and Ulquiorra-they are the most notable of the Espada, and neither are done yet, so even if it's debateable now, they will continue to have roles in the immediate future. So just keep em around unless they die soon. Dabarnes (talk) 05:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge both. If anyone here can provide an iota of significant real world notability for either, I'll possibly reconsider, but as it stands, both miserably fail Wikipedia:Notability (fiction). Importance in the current storyline is utterly irrelevant. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 05:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge both per what Sephiroth BCR said. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course I support the merge. I started this topic. However, I feel I must remind you all that at this point, all hands are tied and will continue to be so until ArbCom stops acting like Shunsui Kyoraku and decides something. Sasuke9031 (talk) 07:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Opppose merge for both Arrancar, as I believe their role in the Bleach series is more vital than any other Arrancar (I also believe that Nnoitra does not deserve his own article as his role probably won't last in the Hueco Mundo arc). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.112.153 (talk) 01:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Support merge for Ulquiorra. Oppose for Grimmjow. Ulquiorra hasn't seen much development since his last encounter with Grimmjow, but Grimmjow's shown more character and character development than any other arrancar. Admittedly, I'm biased towards him because he's sexier than sex, but I have a feeling I'd feel the same way even if he wasn't as undeniably awesome as he is. Muramasa itachi (talk) 00:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge for Ulquiorra. Support merge for Grimmjow Ulquiorra has proved vital in not only Aizen's plans, but also in the life and actions within the human and Shinigami's of Bleach, namely Inoue Orihime and Kurosaki Ichigo, both, caused by him, have been tempted to act in various ways and therefore expand their personalities and give us an in depth look on what makes them tick, and more importantly, how they are growing with the situations presented to them. Some examples, the infamous slap scene between Orihme and Ulquiorra and when Ulquiorra taunts Ichigo into battle causing Ichigo to realize how weak he is compared to the Espada and loss of faith in his abilities. Aizen obviously trusts Ulquiorra a great deal, but I think as the series progress, we can see things changing, Ulquiorra is a very vital character, and I believe should be kept in his own section. Grimmjow, although now as we have seen events progress and unfolded, was once an intriguing character, still is seeing as he may be able to turn to the good side, but for now I believe his role is up as of right now, and therefore since seemingly nothing new will be happening with him in the upcoming future, it is not necessary to keep him in his own section. :) Inulover4eva648 (talk) 16:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC) Inulover4eva648

Comment Your examples work both ways. The scene where Grimmjow saves Orihime is the infamous turning point of his character, and it's obvious his character hasn't run out. Kubo wouldn't just leave his character there with Aizen out to get him, would he? Spoiler: He wouldn't. His role is by no means up, ESPECIALLY with the release of the newest chapter. Your arguments are arbitrary and everything you have said about Ulquiorra in terms of significance applies for Grimmjow as well. Muramasa itachi (talk) 01:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge for Both. Ulquiorra is back in action and is almost certain to heavily influence Ichigo's power and the story's progress once again. Grimmjow, though out of commission, will likely be back in the story and play more major parts than the already major parts he has played. The great kawa (talk) 22:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge for Both As soon as these flashbacks end in the manga, Ulquiorra's going to be against Kurosaki, and anyways, he's vital in Aizen's plans and eyes: He was sent to execute the Capture-Orihime plan--a hugely important event in Bleach-- and he's been left with all of Los Noches. As for Grimmjow, right now he's basically Kurosaki's main enemy (at least in the anime, things run differently in the manga, I think). I think they shuold stay. IceUnshattered (talk) 23:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge of Both Both Ulquiorra and Grimmjow played major parts in the storylines and have backstory. Just like certain important captains have their own sections, some Espada should have their own articles. Pertaining to the issue of how important a character is, I would say if they were involved in multiple arcs and have impacted the storyline majorly (not just a fight, but an actual reason for the storyline) they should stay. Grimmjow was Ichigo's inspiration and was a reason Ichigo is still alive. His backstory is elaborated and is not merely a fight that proved to be a roadblock. Ulquiorra is the one who set off the events of the current story arc, coercing Orihime and creating the no support situation. Many things can be said about him and his story can grow even further since he is not done for yet.Ph15h (talk) 04:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying, but importance < notability. Notability is more important for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Find me those third party sources, people!! Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge of BothI'm against it! I don't understand why you would... What is the problem? If you don't like it don't view it. I'm a fan of anime and already am annoyed cause of the getting rid of the Uchiha Itachi profile. Keep the profiles on! Only time people want to merge these to be a complete jerk. I think each major character which he is should keep their profiles... Besides it cuts information out when you merge it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crimson massacre (talk • contribs) 03:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I originally was too, and trust me, I did the exact same thing. Trust me on this, as I speak from experience. Yelling will only alienate you and accusing will only sere to get you in trouble. As for the reason behind the merges, please read WP:N and WP:FICT. Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yelling? Nah it's not yelling. lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crimson massacre (talk • contribs) 05:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, Ulquiorra and Grimmjow are relatively "recent" characters, right? It's understandable that people aren't reviewing them yet, and that Kubo isn't releasing much info. I mean, compare Ul and Grimm to Rukia, or Ichigo. I think it can't hurt anyone to let those pages stay for a little longer, and if they don't get any "critical reception" for a good while, we can think about merging them. IceUnshattered (talk) 12:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I strongly oppose! What's the harm? I mean there IS a harm merging them for less people will give a care about wiki and will slowly but surely lose a lot of fans. will it change your life in anyway? >> I do not think so... so keep it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crimson massacre (talk • contribs) 05:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, first, can we stop with the personal attacks please? That's really getting us nowhere. As for IceUnshattered's proposal, I'm going off the WP:CRYSTAL policy in conjunction with WP:N and WP:FICT. Oh this is why it's so difficult to gain consensus on these issues. Sasuke9031 (talk) 06:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop with the "Why do we have to merge them! If u dont like it dont read it! Whats the harm! What is it hurting!" It doesn't help our discussion and makes the Grimmjow and Ulquiorra article supporters look like a band of morons. We're not all like this, for the record. Muramasa on a school IP, out. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Muramasa, thank you very much for you opinion, but please use correct grammar on talk pages. Secondly, some are arguing it's "bad" because it doesn't fit with WP:FICT and WP:Notability.

Okay, Sasuke9031: I'll reluctantly agree that you have a point. Though I hate to let these pages go, I have to recognize WP:CRYSTAL and WP:N. Okay, people say that it won't hurt to keep these pages, but where's the hurt in letting them go? If they become notable (notice in WP:N the intro specifically says "Notability is distinct from "fame", "importance", or "popularity"..." we can always recreate the character page!. I think what people really are protesting against here is "Why is my favorite character's page being deleted, eh?!" Look, I love Ulquiorra, and Grimmjow's definitely up there. But they don't have the WP:N, that's the problem. That's why it's sensible to merge them. Agh. It's killing me to say this. I really don't want to let go of these pages, but this is Wikipedia, and we have to abide by the rules here. Eh. IceUnshattered (talk) 22:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Where was my grammar incorrect, just wondering? StardustDragon 01:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorries, it should have been "spelling" as well: First sentence needs a question mark as opposed to exclamation mark, and I prefer "you" to "u", the "whats" should have been "What's" (with a question mark instead of "!"). Glad you cared about this. Some people don't, you know. IceUnshattered (talk) 23:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The "u" was intended, because people tend to do that. As was everything else. I.e., [sic] would apply here. StardustDragon 19:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, looks like we got a saving grace from that Kubo interview about the architect names. Can anyone do me a favor and try to find something that notes the similarity to Gamma Akutabi? I thought Kubo said so in an interview but I was wrong. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 19:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge for Both: i think you guys are being a little to irrational with this whole merging idea. And also i beleve you guys want this because it has some fillers going on in the series, maybe you guys can simply wait a little while longer to see what will happen in the manga it is all in due timeGrimmjow E6 (talk) 15:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Whatever happens in the manga doesn't mean shit. There isn't an iota of real-world notability for either, save for the architects' names having a hand in the conception. Quit stalling for time and discuss it based on the virtues of the actual merge.StardustDragon 01:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Support Merge for both They are Espada. They should belong to the List of Espada article. It's annoying to go look for information on individual Espadas. Plus they are not major characters despite what other fans say. They are villains of a story arc, just like Jin Kariya in the Bounts arc. Bleach revolves around the characters of Ichigo and Aizen which warrants their own articles, not Grimmjow or Ulquiorra. -71.190.180.67 (talk) 19:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Even though this is in support of the merge it is just as misdirected as most of the oppositions. Merging has nothing to do with his in-story importance. Please read WP:FICT and WP:NOTABILITY. StardustDragon 03:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. -71.190.180.67 (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge for both There seems to be a lack of third part "reliable sources" for opposing merges so far, but I will do my best to present what I found: In the last Bleach Shonen Jump character polls, Grimmjaw ranked 4th with 4987 votes while Ulquorria ranked 10th with 3751 votes. These surpassed many of the current individual articles, such as Aizen, Chad, or Gin. The poll can be found in chapter 307 pages 1-3. As readers of Bleach, you are expected to be able to find these chapters and confirm the source yourself.

I have read previous posts, and some people seem to think that character polls are not strong enough evidence. Firstly, there are very few options for other sources. Shonen manga is not a common target for professional literary analysis; the manga is generally meant for a minor audience, which means that few professional viewpoints will be published. Most American sources and videogames will not cover the latest characters (because of in-manga events are irrelevant, it shouldn't matter when a character enters the plot, as long as it has a profound impact). However, character polls are an excellent and updated way for all Bleach fans to share their opinions about which characters have had the greatest impact. Everyone can enter, regardless of nationality, so the audience covers enough. Although some may complain that the coverage is still not great enough, keep in mind that there is no way to get 100% of Bleach readers, and that this would still be an even coverage to find out the relative standpoints between characters.

As for models/toys, there are plenty of small models of Grimmjaw and Ulquorria everywhere such as the one here. Notice that Grimmjaw and Ulquorria are both up on the top on sale, while many of the current holders of individual articles are not on sale. This is just one example, but any supporters of merge will now have to show a fair example of a site selling Bleach toys that DO NOT include Grimmjaw and Ulquorria in order to match this example.

I hope this will help reconsider the merging decision.ScoPI (talk) 23:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

About The Characters

I've looked at The Weasley Family & Death Eater, and added the character template for each espada. I think it makes the page look more organised. If you wanna discuss this, or make changes, let's talk! RedEyesMetal (talk) 13:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The individual entries are not long enough to support infoboxes, creating a lot of whitespace were they to be used. What would be put in the infobox can be found in the text. ~SnapperTo 04:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone put in the Nnoitra section about his released form, but as far as i know it has not been revealed yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.100.191.206 (talk) 06:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I take it that you simply watch the anime. There's nothing wrong with that. I am a big fan of the anime myself, but the manga goes farther than the anime does, and in cases where they catch up, they use filler. In the manga, Nnoitra probably did release his zanpakuto. Sasuke9031 (talk) 20:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Forget what I just said. Snap already made the change. Sasuke9031 (talk) 20:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

To the Spanish impaired: You idiots, Santa Teresa is not Spanish for mantis (I've never even heard of such a stupid idea!) it's Spanish for Saint Teresa (duh!!). Although I think Teresa might be Latin (or some other language) for reaper (which would be appropriate considering how his released form looks). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.21.203 (talk) 19:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anybody hve any idea what santa teresa means in jap and if it has any meaning in spanish culture--Tosta mista (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The IP user is absolutely right. I do not know about the Jap but since we are talking about Arrancar, and they use spanish names for everything, including their zanpakutō, it is safe to say that the name has no jap reference. As for the spanish, who knows, and who cares? Nnoitra is just going to end up killed anyway... Sasuke9031 (talk) 20:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, you can't say that...every manga arrancar's zanpakuto has had a Japanese spelling along with a Spanish reading. (I'd pull it off ja:Wiki, but for some reason that page is protected so Nnoitra's zanpakuto isn't up yet...it got protected probably because one user vehemently objected to me adding the official Romanizations of their surnames as opposed to just their given names?)—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 03:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

This is just a suggestion, but do you guys think there should be a side by side picture of the espada and their releases as the series goes on, like with Luppi. Also, shouldn't noitra get a short plot summary, like szyael and the other espada that have been merged?--Sanji_1990 (talk) 23:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, good idea. And thank you to whoever, trimmed Szyael into 4 nice pargraphs...RedEyesMetal (talk) 07:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you to whoever brought a side by side picture of szyael. By the way, I haven't been watching the anime much lately, but did they show Szyael's animated picture yet? Because we could use that picture for his face if they did.--Sanji_1990 (talk) 01:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

At the moment, having manga by manga is preferable. Besides, the color shot is well done. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that Nnoitra has Released there should be a picture like Szayels of him in original form and Released side by side...should do the same for Zommari LeRoux too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.79.38 (talk) 17:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Privaron Espada

Should the Privaron Espada be moved to this article? They're former Espada just like Neliel, after all. 76.123.216.96 (talk) 08:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, they are former espada, but they're different from Nel. For now it's probably to keep them in their original spots or something.--Sanji_1990 (talk) 20:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

why is nel tu an espada anyway?she was stripped of her rank after nnoitra and szayel expelled her. i think she should be a privaron espada.--DavidEGonzalez 9:36 pm,feb 5,2007 —Preceding comment was added at 03:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Because she isn't a Privaron any more than Luppi. She was never really stripped of her rank, Nnoitra just tossed her out of Los Noches. She's still pretty strong, even by current Espada standards.Dabarnes (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

She was never stripped of her rank that you know of. However, she was replaced as there were 10 Espada upon Ichigo and the groups arrival, meaning she no longer held the rank of 3rd Espada. Therefore she should be removed from the Espada section. Furthermore, she is not a Privaron Espada, as they are former Espada given number 100+. She should just be moved to the Arrancer list, while stating she was once an Espada. Ditch88 (talk) 07:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Nel should be wherever Luppi ends up. Neither She nor Luppi "Officially" lost their rank but were at one point Espada and as such should be wherever the Espada/Privaron are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.138.79.35 (talk) 16:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Neither Nel nor Luppi fall under either the catagory of Espada or Privaron Espada. [Though on a counter-note, Luppi was killed and Grimmjow took his place back, Nel was simply kicked out of Huenco Mundo by Nnoitra and replaced.] Anyway I suggest they should be placed in a section of their own [Which is totally pointless] or simply moved to the list of Arrancer. 134.121.250.173 (talk) 21:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean Dordoni, Curruci, Aaronero and Zomari should be moved to the Arrancar list because they are no longer Privaron/Espada? They are dead now (the former 2 only implied of course) just like Luppi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.138.79.35 (talk) 13:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

None of those names you listed off have been replaced! Luppi was replaced by Grimmjow [who held the position originally, but that has nothing to do with it]. Nel was replaced also, by who ever now holds the rank of 3rd Espada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.121.250.173 (talk) 08:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

We should compile a list of former Espada and include Nel, the Privaron, and Luppi in it. Heck, if we felt really bold, we could start a section for first-generation Espada, including the Privaron and Aaroniero. Muramasa itachi (talk) 00:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Szayelaporro

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-o6-49-en-70-2j57.html Saw this and was wondering which is correct, or would this mean he has two acceptable spellings like Grimmjow's last name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.237.133 (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Nah, the spread for his character said Szayel Aporro, and we got Granz from something like one of those. The reason there is the whole Jeagerjaques/Jaegerjaques thing is because Grimmjow's character spread had no last name and the spellings we see are inconsistent.Dabarnes (talk) 10:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Why was this split?

Why exactly was this split? Both of these lists can be trimmed quite a bit, so splitting them doesn't really make much sense. TTN (talk) 20:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Splitting it makes much more sense. Per people's concerns about WP:SIZE and all, this page could be compared to the likes of Naruto Akatsuki members. Trimmed quite a bit? Szayel could have his own article based on all the information yet due to the lack of real world information he had to be merged.--Hanaichi 02:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as their was no real attempt to condense anything, I don't really see how it makes much more sense. A very good deal could be trimmed or cut. Just for Szayel, if you cut the unnecessary plot summary and summarize the zanpakutō details much more briefly, it easily has two paragraphs. TTN (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

TTN, please read WP:CONS. Sasuke9031 (talk) 03:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

What does that have to do with anything? Am I redirecting the list? No. I have started a discussion inquiring why it was unnecessarily split in the first place. TTN (talk) 03:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It was spilt due to a consensus reached over at the talk on the list of hollows page. You can read it there if you want. Sasuke9031 (talk) 03:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I already know that. The consensus of small groups doesn't always make sense. I'm wondering why people felt it was necessary when the hollow page can easily be cut in half, and this one can probably be cut down by one fourth. TTN (talk) 03:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

And I cannot help but wonder why you insist on turning the entirety of Wikipedia into a one sentence article that says, "This is the Earth." Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

For the moment, all hands are tied. Why not pick this up when it's an issue that can actually be resolved one way or another? — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 07:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

"And I cannot help but wonder why you insist on turning the entirety of Wikipedia into a one sentence article that says, "This is the Earth." Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)"

Cheaper to host =D AnimeNikkaJamal (talk) 02:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Nnoitra's abilities

If anyone recalls when Nnoitra had his own article there was mention of him having an ability to sense this opponents' reiatsu, which is what he was doing with his finger on the ground after defeating Chad and when Zaraki showed up. At the time this was discounted because there was no viable source to confirm this. However, episode 160 of the anime provides an answer to his actions. Indeed, he was checking for reiatsu levels both times; the first to search for a strong opponent and the second to gauge Zaraki's strength (During the previews Tesla asks what Nnoitra was doing with his finger touching the ground, to which he replies "That's how I search for different reiatsu in Las Noches." So whoever provided that info was indeed very correct. I've made a mention of this ability in the article. Kyouraku-taichou (talk) 02:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Whoever removed my alteration needs to rethink themselves a bit. That ability is unique to Nnoitra; it is his ability and we have seen no one use it before, so it merits a mention in the paragraph about his abilities. That would be like not mentioning Grimmjow's powerful roaring; which we do, so Nnoitra's unique power-sensing ability should be noted. I don't see why it wouldn't be. Kyouraku-taichou (talk) 04:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Kyouraku, that was in a preview, it doesn't mean a thing. It was only mentioned in the anime and only once for that matter, in said preview. There is no proof he has such an ability. 134.121.250.173 (talk) 07:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Why does it being in a preview mean it doesn't have meaning? The previews are part of the anime episodes, and thus they are just as much canon as the rest of the material. 69.250.189.148 (talk) 17:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, because everything the anime gives us is definitely canon, like filler, God forbid... 207.80.142.5 (talk) 15:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Like the bount, no? We're counting that as canon because it's shown in the manga and explained in the anime. Encyclopedic mprovement of the article is ultimately what's most important, not wiki-burocracy. AnimeNikkaJamal (talk) 17:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Pray tell, when were the Bount mentioned in the manga? 207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, the first "that" in my post was referring to Nnoitra's ability, and subsequently the entire sentence. I only mentioned Bounts off-handedly as a device to clear the air of the elitist "lol filler crap" attitude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnimeNikkaJamal (talk • contribs) 02:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

All i am saying is it isn't mentioned anywhere that Nnoitra has this ability. I mean it just said in the last one that Grantz Fraccion have different flavors, while he was having a conversation with Ichida. Come on, they are meant for jokes and gimmicks while the previews are rolling! 134.121.250.173 (talk) 02:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

They're not always jokes. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 02:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Mm, those aren't always jokes. (Ack! Different flavors, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.) If I were you, I would probably ask myself, "Am I just being an insane Nnoitra fan?", "Is it distinctly unique to him alone?", "Does it serve a worth-mentioning part in the story?", and "Does it have enough back-up evidence?" IceUnshattered (talk) 23:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've taken it down a couple times now and someone keeps putting it back up. If you have proof then verify it. But the preview doesn't hold up as proof he has this ability! 134.121.250.173 (talk) 22:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is turning into an edit war over something as trivial as this. People the anime preview is not a reliable source when I comes to things like this. Honestly, if that were true then we should add ideas such as Ishida talking to Grantz about his fraccion any other crazy shorts gimmicks that the anime has come up with to make the previews entertaining. Yes we have these in the articles but only in regards that these our outside the story continuum. Now Penquin found a source in the manga that hints to this ability [Chapter 298] though it wasn't proven, it could still be used. I'm trying to compromise with this here, do we need to lock this page till we can come to an agreement? Because that seems completely unnecessary. Ditch88 (talk) 00:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Switching to a username won't make your point any more valid. He uses it twice in the manga, and for the same purpose. The anime explains it clearly for us. Reliable. Since two people are against you, let it go. You won't get to dilute it simply because you dislike the anime. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 00:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

lol I only signed on because I was working on other pages. And just so you know, there are just as many against you, your no better in this argument. I switched it to the manga chapter, which works just as fine and is reliable. But your anime example isn't plain and simple. So its says this ability like you wanted and its verified which was my only problem, so there is no need to debate this any further. Ditch88 (talk) 03:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Really, I count you and your IP, and other editors who've caved in. Two to one is the current. Regardless, since you're satisfied, it's all good. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 03:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

For your anime source I only see you and one other (the rest merely say it should be added, they say nothing about the source used), while there is me and one other who felt is shouldn't, appears tied to me. Now I have my source and you have the fact that this ability is stated. So lets leave it at that. Ditch88 (talk) 03:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I suggest looking up the "pesquisa" Arrancar ability for the people that think that this is unique to Nnoitra. StardustDragon 22:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to debate it, but just to clear it up for you. that ability differs from what Nnoitra is shown to do. Pesquisa is, from what the manga has said, to be an ability to heighten the senses of an arrancars nerves so that they may sense spiritual pressure. Nnoitra is the only one to show any sign of being able to use it in a sonar fasion and so for the time being, yes, it is unique to him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.163.72 (talk) 04:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

So why does it say in the Wikipedia article that pesquisa functions "similar to sonar?" 70.138.167.143 (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've already edited it to fit what the manga has shown. If it says otherwise than someone is mistaken. 24.17.144.185 (talk) 06:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Nnoitra

He definitely needs his own page, as he has a lot more focus in the manga now.

i dont know, i mean ulquiorra has his own page and he never does anything

68.238.93.19 (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of how much "focus" the manga gives him. The real question is, is there enough third-party coverage from reliable sources to justify an independent article? --Farix (Talk) 18:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

why does Ulquiorra get his own page when he never does ANYTHING then? Nnoitra does a lot and has a tiny little stub.68.238.80.86 (talk) 18:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want to know why ulquiorra hasn't been merged yet, read Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2 this. Sasuke9031 (talk) 18:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not reading an entire page of procedure and legal bullshit. summarize it please. 68.238.80.86 (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see why Nnoitra would need his own page. Even with regards to in-universe importance, there's not much to say about him. His importance to the story is virtually nil, with his only action of any significance being the expulsion of Neliel from Las Noches in the backstory. Outside of that, his role has been minimal and easily replaceable, much like the majority of the Espada. At present, the only Arrancar that have enough thrust within the story to possibly warrent their own pages would seem to be Ulquiorra (due to being a driving factor of the Hueco Mundo arc as a whole) and Grimmjow (due to being a constant force within the arc and showing greater character growth than almost all of his counterparts). 68.5.90.236 (talk) 07:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

i totally agree Nnotira needs his own page i mean they even gave ulquiorra one and he didn't do shit yet and we've found out about Nnotira's past with nel tu,he fights kenpachi,and he's just awsome so he needs a page and ulquiorra got one and he's only made few appearances.Nnotira has played a bigger role currrently.i think Nnotira should at least have a character icon.

While I strongly believe that Grimmjow and Ulquiorra deserve their individual pages, I have my doubts on whether there should be one on Nnoitra as there is as much information on him as their is on espadas 7,8 and 9. In fact, the falshback scenes with Nnotira and Nel are primarily shown to explain how Nel was an espada. The main focus is not on Nnorita. And even if there should be an individual page on Nnorita for this matter, shouldn't there be one on Sayel Apporro Granz as well? I mean, he also played a role in the flashback and his powers have also been elaborated on to the degree that Nnorita's has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nargolfan (talk • contribs) 18:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Cirucci Thunderwitch

Isn't it possible that Cirucci should in fact be read as Circe? Thats how I would translate her name. 141.133.170.111 (talk) 18:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm pulling out my signature move here. Source it. Sasuke9031 (talk) 21:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't he say the same to you, as in provide the source that says Cirucci is read Cirucci?Muramasa itachi (talk) 00:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the guys who said that it was Cirucci used WP's Japanese helper. Of course the romanization of Cirucci Thunderwitch isn't as easy as say, Ichigo Kurosaki, but there is a help page on this encyclopedia for Japanese. Sasuke9031 (talk) 01:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't count as a citable source, if I recall correctly from Verifiability. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 15:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Espada's Names

Hi, In the Spanish wikipedia they note that each of the known Espada is named more or less after a real-world artist. I think it's an interesting information, although I don't think we have any reference for it.

I list here the Espada and their namesakes:

• Stark -> Philippe Starck
• Barragan -> Luis Barragán
• Halibel -> Harry Bell Measures or Halle Berry, undecided
• Ulquiorra -> Patricia Urquiola
• Nnoitra -> Richard Neutra
• Grimmjow -> Nicholas Grimshaw
• Luppi -> Italo Lupi
• Zommari Leroux -> Jean-Baptiste Leroux
• Szayel Aporro Granz -> Alejandro Zaera Polo
• Aaroniero -> Eero Aarnio
• Yammy -> Hisila Yami

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.107.210 (talk) 15:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

--Wafry (talk) 18:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

--My name iz Lamar Carter and I found the last two names, I think. lolz 10:58, 21 March 2008

Barragan maybe...but Halle Berry?—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 16:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

--Hey man u may never know. When I 1st seen Halibel name my thought was, Halle Berry. lolz That was closest guess/assumption possible. Im not saying im right —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.107.210 (talk) 18:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

That's an awesome find ! Since the Espadas are named after architect and designer, Zommari Leroux must be named after Jean-Baptiste Leroux and Stark after Philippe Stark ! User:KidKon —Preceding comment was added at 22:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Halle Berry, come on, cut the crap. I would say that Halibel is a reference to Harry Bell Measures, an english arquitect. Now, Yammy, that remains a mistery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.152.31.168 (talk) 04:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Haliberu is the Japanese version of her name, after all. Also, I ordered the list above to match the Espada's numbers, or presumed in the case of the top three. StardustDragon (talk) 14:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, Yammy must be named after Hisila Yami. By the way, it's Philippe StarCk, not Stark. Even if we don't have any sources, do you think it can be added to the page ? User:KidKon

I think it would be useful, but I don't think they'd let us because of lack of sources. --Wafry (talk) 19:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

WOW!! I seen that someone was kind of upset at my Halibel=Halle Berry find lolz. Im not saying im right. As I said before i just said that Halibel or Haliberu= Halle Berry because Halibel is dark-skin or balck in my opinion and Halle Berry is black but not dark skinned lolz. I just assumed thats where he got it from. Eichiro Oda of One Piece based Enel/Eneru off of rapper Eminem, so maybe Kubo based Halibel off of Halle Berry. The thing is people we may never know until Kubo's says it. We may even be wrong with all the "he named the Espada off of famous architects" . As I say until we meet and ask him we may never know. The only thing we can do is just theorize and theorize. LOLZ -->Lamar Carter baby —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.118.47 (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Heck, that's cool, but don't put anything in--Wikipedia is for FACT, not theories or info that can't be backed up. Halibel, Halle Berry? That's surprising, but cool, yeah! Oh, so THAT's where Aeronierro's crazy name came from, hah. IceUnshattered (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Kubo confirmed Ulquiorra and Grimmjow's names. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 16:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge, revisited...

OK, seeing as how the injunction is over, the merging of Ulquiorra and Grimmjow is still up for grabs. Please share your views here... Sasuke9031 (talk) 05:14, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Merge for both. Grimmjow's still around, and as of Chapter 315, Ulquiorra is gearing up to fight Ichigo again. Wait until he's dead or changed sides (not that it's likely) before doing anything. 68.63.95.67 (talk) 19:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's gonna be Grimmjow and Ichigo versus Ulqiorra. Oppose merge for both, they're obviously still in the game as main characters. DiamondDragon (talk) 23:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC) See comment at bottom.

oppose merge the article is big enough as it is71.123.16.88 (talk) 18:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Though I have to assume good faith here, this reason is not very good, and it reeks of WP:ILIKEIT. Just because an article is liked, does not mean it has to be kept. Please take a look at WP:N and WP:FICT. Sasuke9031 (talk) 21:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

'Agree with Sasuke-kun, and for those reasons it's not a contributive nor compelling reason. I believe his arguments or pathetic lack thereof should be dropped and ignored. DiamondDragon (talk) 23:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge, because so far Grimmjow and Ulquiorra seem to be the main antagonists in the whole series. --deerstop (talk) 23:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
After a bit of thinking I've come to a conclusion that Ulquiorra and Grimmjow maybe not so important compared with e.g. Kurosaki Ichigo. Well, it's true that they ofter appeared in the series, but lots of characters do the same (Nel Tu, Ichigo's sisters and others). They can gain importance in future, though, but currently should be merged.--deerstop (talk) 19:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Question: Does anyone have a keep reason that would satisfy WP:FICT or WP:N? Most of the answers, while made in good faith, are some variation or another or WP:ILIKEIT. To be honest, I like these articles too and I do think they should stay, but the fat of the matter is that they can't unless someone is willing to defend their existence using the two guidelines given. Sasuke9031 (talk) 23:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

All of the above comments are WP:ILIKEIT or assertions that they're "important." Neither meets WP:FICT. Merge both. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've sort of come to a new conclusion on this. Merge them both. They are important characters, but neither has enough information, save *maybe* Grimmjow IF we get more character development on him, to warrant their own page. I have a feeling we'll be changing this with the release of the next chapter or so with Grimmjow's awakening and Ulquiorra's inevitable release, but go ahead and merge. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 22:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Lets at least wait until Ichigo and Ulquiorra fight until we merge that. As for Grimmjow, he is probaly going to get more info, so just be patient guys. Del rayo 2:21 27 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Del rayo (talk • contribs)

It doesn't matter whatsoever what happens in the next fight. Neither could pass under WP:OBVIOUS, and neither will have enough real world material besides appearances in japanese video games. There's also a serious lack of reliable 3rd party sources. Here's the number one rule for articals pertaining to fiction: What happens in the fictional universe means shit. Even if Ulquirra were to reveal that he's the father of Luke Skywalker, it would mean nothing. What matters the subject's impact and notoriety in OUR world, which neither Grimmjow or Ulquirra seem to have impressed enough to warrant their own article. Quit stalling for time(WP:CRYSTAL) and merge those things already. Do it right and their new entires on this page will encyclopediacly function just fine. AnimeNikkaJamal (talk) 10:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, well, I'm sure the thing about Luke Skywalker could help :))) --deerstop (talk) 12:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

By this guy's logic, we should merge it then unmerge the day the new chapter comes out. Rinse and repeat said cycle. Although I've already agreed to merge them both, it's worth keeping in mind that Grimmjow has been proven to be based off of a character from Kubo's previous mangas, which could come in handy in arguments for his notability. Just thought I'd throw it out there. StardustDragon (talk) 14:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

If you can find source material on that THEN and ONLY THEN can Grimmjow be kept. And please don't let it be a fourm or fansite. Those do not establish notability. Sasuke9031 (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was already quoted in an interview on the page at some point. When I'm not so tired I'll dig it up in older incarnations of the page if need be. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 20:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"Grimmjow's character design draws heavily from Gamma Akutabi, a character in Tite Kubo's earlier manga, Zombie Powder. Gamma has prosthetics in the same area where Grimmjow has his remnant hollow mask. They both share a missing arm, although both on different sides. Grimmjow's released form makes the resemblance even more apparent with similar long spiky hair. The two have also been identically posed for volume covers." The volume covers part is the best I could find for now. StardustDragon 01:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs)

But where's the source? I can't just add this in without sourcing it. That would be bad. Sasuke9031 (talk) 02:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You need a source to tell you that the two have been identically posed? Or do you want the two volume covers, or what? I don't see why you need a source to point out an obvious semblance, unless the covers themselves would count as sources.207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I love how we start these discussions and just abandon them for a month or so. If you're going to merge them, do it. If not, remove the tag. It's almost been a month since someone other than me posted here. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 23:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yammy

hey guys i was wondering why Yammy's article is so short. I mean he's been in some important battles and that article has absolutely no description of what he has done (synopsis). I get why Stark, Halibel, and Barragan have nothing, but unlike them Yammy has been around for a while. He at least needs a picture. Del rayo (talk) 0:20 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a picture of him - at the very top of the article. --deerstop (talk) 06:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

yeah, but that picture "kinda" sucks. Plus, unless you have seen an anime episode/manga chapter in which he was you would have no clue what he looked like. This happened with me with Stark and Barragan. Seriosly, Yammy's article needs some work. --Del rayo (talk) 15:57 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm affraid rules don't permit it. --deerstop (talk) 23:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Screw with the rules, this is supposed to be the free content encyclopedia! Why trim articles and suggest merges? And I believe there are at least two arrancar who do deserve their own articles (Guess who those two are, because it isn't Stark, Halibel, Barragan, Nel (even though she played a big role in the Hueco Mundo Arc), Nnoitra, Luppi, Zommari, Szayel, or Aaroniero). Yammy, I'm not sure, but he is alive at this point and he might get his own article yet (P.S. The two arrancar who I claim should keep their own articles are Grimmjow and Ulquiorra).

Pray tell, what has Yammy done, other than gotten the piss beaten out of him by Ichigo pre-Vaizard form and again by Urahara-san, and been a prick during the Espada meeting? StardustDragon (talk) 15:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The answer to that, of course, is nothing. Have a good day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.138.79.35 (talk) 13:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible speculation

Would it be possible for the following to be included somewhere in the article. Some mention of the likelihood(Sp?) of the bodies hanging in Sazael aporro's laboratory being Cirruci Thunderwitch and Dordonii? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.115.99 (talk) 18:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Source it. IceUnshattered (talk) 13:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Cirucci, I can believe, but Dordonii didn't seem like he thought he was going to die when he went up against the Exequias. Cirucci's boots match the left body's boots, so that could be verified in a way, but Dordonii didn't have any notable semblance to the other body. In short, wait for more info. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, the one that looks like it could be Cirucci is taller than the other body. No way is Dordonii shorter than Cirucci. 71.203.209.0 (talk) 02:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture Change

The picture does contain the current espada but there is no particular order. It would be easier to read this article if you could scroll up to the picture and see the faces in order rather than its currently jumbled state. I've painstakingly cut the images so that they go by descending rank. link: http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7529/espada1ou3.png Ultimantorca (talk) 08:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

But are you sure the top 3 are in the correct order? The rest are fine, but Stark, Halibel, and Barragan have me concerned since I do not know their numbers. Sasuke9031 (talk) 08:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Arrange Stark, Barragan, and Halibel in that order if you ask me, since that seems like the most likely order of their ranking. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I say leave it alone for now rather than reordering the image to guess at their ranks. 71.203.209.0 (talk) 02:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The rank for the last 3 espada will be in this order:1rst;Barragan,2nd:Stark and 3rd:Halibel or at least i bet thats how it will be if not i will delete my wikipedia login user nameGrimmjow E6 (talk) 02:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Mira Rose

I just wanted to point out that Mira Rose as depicted by Kubo Tite is not dark skinned that was an addition/swap done by studio pierott when they made Hallebel somewhat tanned instead of dark skinned as she is depicted by Kubo Tite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.215.253 (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Stark

I have heard that Tite Kubo stated that Stark will not fight Ichigo or any Captain, yet he will fight someone else. What Kubo meant by this however, is, as of yet, unknown.Grimmjow E6 (talk) 02:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

it could mean that he might fight one of the Vizard (they technicaly aren't captains anymore), although i was kinda expecting/hoping for him to fight Kyouraku (you know, becouse they look alike) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.96.112.25 (talk) 12:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have some legitimate sources, we can probably put in the article but it might as well be fan speculation. Please note that Wikipedia discussion is not a forum to discuss Bleach. It is to discuss how to make the article better. -71.190.180.67 (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok here is the source, i mean all the other articles i read so far is legit,On this bleach wiki here:[1]Grimmjow E6 (talk) 19:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Christ. Wikis and fansites are not sources. Any idiot can edit a wiki and put that Kubo said that. It doesn't make it true unless it cited another verifiable source. StardustDragon 00:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL --Numyht (talk) 16:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Redirect

When we type in Espada in the search bar, is it possible to redirect the search to the List of Espada. I'm pretty sure when people type in Espada they meant to get this article instead of sword. Or even if it redirects to sword can we make a disambiguation page? -71.190.180.67 (talk) 21:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

done by yours truly - Overmage (talk) 16:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Mucho thanks, it helps a lot -01:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.232.25 (talk)