Talk:First Deputy Premier of the Soviet Union

Move to First Deputy of the Soviet Union

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved; discussion resulted in consensus that the current title is correct, and List of First Deputies of the Soviet Union now redirects to this article. R'n'B (call me Russ) 20:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

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• (Discuss) — List of First Deputies of the Soviet Union → First Deputy of the Soviet Union — The article has no "mother page" which tells about the office itself + it is more difficult for readers to locate this page when it does not have a "mother page" + a mother page is a FL requirement, if not, it has to be moved to the "mother page's name". Therefore, move. --TIAYN (talk) 18:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Not yet. We have to figure out the correct English term first, common for all different Soviet office names; e.g., First deputy of the head of the government of the Soviet Union or Vice-premier of the Soviet Union. Lovok Sovok (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
    • The common name is First Deputy..... --TIAYN (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
      • Fist Deputy of what? First Deputy is of office [1], not of the state. Lovok Sovok (talk) 23:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
        • • It says in the text; First Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars, First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers and First Deputy Prime Minister of the Cabinet of Ministers.. This is already mentioned in the text... The only possible redirect is First Deputy of the Soviet Union. --TIAYN (talk) 23:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
            • Sorry, disagreed. I gave two more, which are more correct. The English language usage implies "deputy of the office" (or of the person who occupies the office; first deputy of the Prosecutor General, first deputy of Viktor Barannikov , first deputy of the Burial Society ...). Soviet Union is not an office, it is country. I have never seen the usage "deputy of <a country>". You cannot have invent office titles yourself. This would be original research. If there is none, you hace to use descriptive phrases, such as the ones suggested by me. Lovok Sovok (talk) 00:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
  • The others are not more correct, and are much-less frequently used by the academics and historians. First Deputy is what this office is normally referred to, and not Vice-premier. You're one may be more correct, but it would have reduced readability. So no, you're incorrect. --TIAYN (talk) 09:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
    • It's the same as Prime Minister of Russia, there is no difference... The collequal term for all three offices is First Deputy, that's a fact you'll have to live with. --TIAYN (talk) 00:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
      • And you have to live with the fact that your English, as well as logic, and desire to understand what other people are actually telling you is not perfect. The current title is exactly what I repeatedly said: deputy cannot be "of country". "Deputy premier" makes sense, "deputy of the USSR" does not. Lovok Sovok (talk) 05:34, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
  • The title is now First Deputy Premier of the Soviet Union so I fail to see your problem. --TIAYN (talk) 10:59, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
• Fixed --TIAYN (talk) 08:46, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Первый заместитель Советского Союза

If you google this phrase, you'll find only mirrors of this article. This is because it translates back into English as "First Acting Soviet Union", i.e. a person, who steps in when the Soviet Union is unable to perform its duties. The phrase makes sense in Russian only in conjunction with the position the First Deputy steps into, i.e. "First Deputy Chairman of the CPCSU". By the way, this might be the reason why there are no corresponding articles in other languages. --illythr (talk) 23:04, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

First, this is a newly-created article, second even the Russian wiki doesn't have a corresponding article, thirdly "first deputy" is the term used in regards to the Vice Premiers of the Soviet Union, fourth, there are not that many people who are interested in the vice premiers of a now defunct country and fifth, and last, even if you can't find an obscure office in a google search doesn't mean it doesn't exist! --TIAYN (talk) 15:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The phrase "Первый заместитель Советского Союза" is meaningless in Russian. No Russian source uses it like that. You can't present a machine (or flawed) translation as the real thing because the real thing looks different: "Первый заместитель <insert position here> Советского Союза".

As for the page numbers - had you bothered to actually look at what you reverted (surely, after three blind reverts in a row, an apology and an invitation, a bit of good faith might be in order here?), you might have noticed the {{rp}} template. --illythr (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't even know that an rp is....... If the translation is incorrect please replace it with a better translation. --TIAYN (talk) 22:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

That's the problem: there is no correct translation - all these titles are used separately in Russian. The only solution I can see here is remove the incorrect Russian phrase from the intro and add Russian names for the individual positions in the table below.

Okay, I'll restore my edit again and you can take a look at what that template does. --illythr (talk) 23:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Okay, your edits were fine. Second, can you give me an example of these pecularities with translation? I mean, seriously, there exists a translation of First Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, why wouldn't there exist one for the First Deputy of the Soviet Union? (I know that First Deputy is not the official term, but "First Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars", "First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers" and "First Deputy Prime Minister of the Cabinet of Ministers" are!) --TIAYN (talk) 13:38, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

That's the point: First Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation ("temporary replacement for the Prime Minister"). Not "First Deputy of the Russian Federation" ("temporary replacement for the Russian Federation"). Sometimes the subject specification is dropped (as in First Lady of <country>), but in this case it is not (too ambiguous, I guess). --illythr (talk) 19:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I understand, can you at least translate the other proper titles (e.g. First Deputy Prime Minister of the Cabinet of Ministers)?

Here they are:

• First Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR: Первый заместитель Председателя Совета Народных Комиссаров СССР
• First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR: Первый заместитель Председателя Совета Министров СССР
• First Deputy Prime Minister of the Cabinet of Ministers of the USSR: Первый заместитель Председателя Совета Кабинета Министров СССР

Not sure where to insert them, though. --illythr (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. --TIAYN (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• Neutral at the moment. I suggest creating the article "First Deputy of the Soviet Union" by moving most of the text there, leaving a summary here, so allowing "FDSU" to be expanded. Chaosdruid (talk) 17:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

There isn't enough information out there to create a seperate article. --TIAYN (talk) 22:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

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