Talk:List of IIHF World Junior Championship medalists

Medal Table

Scorpion, we need to adjust the table in accordance with IIHF. Do you want to do it? or you want me to do it? Andreyx109 (talk) 03:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I've changed it. Its all done. Andreyx109 (talk) 14:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

CIS...

Why is the CIS not included with the USSR/RUS count?--Львівське (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It ought to be. GoodDay (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. CIS result should be included to USSR/RUS. The math is simple. By IIHF, Russia is a successor of USSR. CIS is a USSR minus Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. If, in hockey, Russia inherited the titles of USSR that obviously it should inherit the titles of CIS = USSR minus Baltic states.--Exuwon (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

No, because officially the CIS was a grouping, and while the majority (if not all) of the team was Russian, it would be incorrect to group them together. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Scorpion, tell me please, how many countries were in CIS during the IIHF U-20 Championship?--Exuwon (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The IIHF considers the CIS team to be part of the continuity of the USSR and Russia team, and rightly so. They began the tournament as the Soviet Union. Whether or not they were all Russian is as irrelevant as if all of the players on the USSR team were Russian.Djob (talk) 23:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a huge difference though. The CIS was officially made up of several independant nations. So if there were any players from other nations (and, by the way, there were. Sandis Ozoliņš is Latvian), it would mean that it would be incorrect to call it just a Russian medal. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The statement regarding Sandis Ozoliņš have no sense as far as Latvia never was a part of CIS and this is a solid fact!--Exuwon (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Nobody's calling it just a Russian medal. The Soviet teams also had non-Russian players but they're considered the same thing. If anything, it should be considered a USSR medal. Jesus, they started the tournament as the USSR. Four of the six wins they achieved in that tournament were actually as the USSR. The following year, Russia was given the number one seed based on the USSR/CIS team's gold medal. Could it be any clearer that it's a continuation of the same team? If we accept the IIHF's position that Russia is a continuation of the USSR team, then how can the CIS be ignored? If they're not the same team, then I guess we'd better separate the two teams in the 1992 WJC standings. USSR was 4-0-0 and CIS was 2-1-0.Djob (talk) 08:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, just let the Russian have his carrot. It's not worth fighting over. Resolute 00:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Those were interesing times. The day after the USSR desolved, the 'former' Soviet team came out on the ice, whith the same jersey 'but' missing the CCCP. They just had the blank space on the front. GoodDay (talk) 14:49, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

We seem to have a disagreement whether the CIS should be included with the USSR and Russia totals, though I don't know why. I think it's pretty clear that they should be included. Though Scorpion seems to disagree. The lengthy discussion on the World Championship page did not talk about the CIS. By assuming the USSR's record in the middle of the 1992 tournament, the IIHF clearly considered the CIS to be a continuation of the USSR team. By giving Russia the number one seed in the 1993 tournament, the IIHF clearly considered the new Russian team to be a continuation of the USSR/CIS team from the year before.Djob (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any conclusive proof that the IIHF officially considers Russia to be a successor to the CIS? With the previous USSR/Russia mess, it was decided to combine the totals because the IIHF considers Russia the successor to the USSR, and conclusive proof was given. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I suppose "conclusive" is in the mind of the beholder. If you observe what the IIHF has done in cases where one country succeeds another (Russia succeeding USSR or Czech Republic succeeding Czechoslovakia), the successor nation has inherited the position and ranking of the old nation. I have already explained how the CIS fits into that with the USSR and Russia. The CIS inherited the USSR's position, and Russia, in turn, inherited the CIS's position. The CIS was an intermediary in the changeover from the Soviet to Russian associations. It defies logic to say that Russia is a successor to the USSR, but the CIS is not.Djob (talk) 06:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Who won in 1992?

As you can see above, there was some debate in late 2009 about how to count the 1992 victory by CIS in the medal counts. The debate came to an end on November 20, 2009. That same day, the article was amended to change the 1992 winner from "CIS" to "Soviet Union". At that time a citation (that is still there) to the IIHF page that lists all medalists was given. Indeed, on that page "Soviet Union" is listed as the winners of the gold medal. But on another IIHF page ("Story #59") they report this:

"During the 1992 IIHF World U20 Championship in Germany, the Soviet team had to change its name from Soviet Union to CIS midway through the tournament, on January 1, 1992."

Furthermore, the Wikipedia page for the 1992 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships lists "CIS" as the winner of the gold and reports:

"On New Year's Day, 1992, the Soviet Union was formally dissolved, and the team that had begun the tournament under that name completed it as the Commonwealth of Independent States. The team had no new flag to fly at the tournament, and continued to use their СССР jerseys through to its conclusion."

That page gives a citation for this information. The Wikipedia page for the Soviet Union supports this date of dissolution. So it seems that the team that won gold started the tournament as the "Soviet Union" and ended the tournament as "CIS". I recommend that this page be amended to say that the gold was won by "CIS" (to be in alignment with the 1992 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships page), but with a footnote explaining the name change added. Citations to the same book cited on the 1992 page and to "Story #59" should be given to support the change. "CIS" can be added to the medal totals table together with Russia and Soviet Union.99.192.49.20 (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't be against it, but I'm sure the revisionists that always pop up around World Championship time wouldn't be too happy. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 22:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it should stay as saying that the Soviet Union won in 1992, as that is what the IIHF officially records, according to this page. However, I agree that a note saying that they changed their name is both important and necessary. Because it is officially an IIHF tournament I think it we have to report what they officially record. Unfortunetly, article 59 (see above) doesn't actually mention whether or not the IIHF accepted/recognized the changed of the name of Soviet Union to CIS during the tournament, and talks only of it being officially used during the 92 Olympics. Unless someone can find an official source, specifically referring to the 92 winning U20 champions and calling them CIS, it should stay as Soviet Union. Ravendrop (talk) 22:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You make a good point, Ravendrop. It seems unlikely that the IIHF had any mechanism in place that would allow a country to officially change their name in the middle of the tournament, so while it might have been relatively easy for them to accommodate ongoing political developments by not use the Soviet flag or play the Soviet anthem after wins, they still might not have had the option to change the name for the official records. It's a little bit like how the Battle of New Orleans is counted as part of the War of 1812, even though it happened after the war officially ended. Or maybe not :) Anyway, if this is right, then the 1992 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships page would seem to be the one that needs changing. Either way, it would be good for consistency between the two pages. 142.177.24.151 (talk) 00:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC) (=99.192.49.20)

Looks like this discussion has been dead for a while, but officially, according to the IIHF Media guide and Record Book, they list it as all three (USSR, CIS, and Russia), isn't that awesome. In their medal tables it is included with USSR footnoted as being CIS, but in their yearly summary the standings state Russia, again footnoted as CIS and Soviet Union. Seeing as two of the players (Ozolins and Zholtok) where neither Russian nor part of the CIS, I believe USSR is preferable, but it appears that 'official' sources are very little help either.18abruce (talk) 13:25, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Future Tournaments

Regarding future hosts of the tournament, I noticed that the 2015, 2017, 2019, and 2021 were added as being hosted by Canada and then removed again, so I'll bring the issue here. The IIHF has officially announced that Canada will host these, see here (note, this is a different reference than used on the page before). I think that these should be included on the page, even though there will be blank spaces and a specific host city not yet selected (as the 2013 version is currently in this state). Thoughts? Ravendrop (talk) 23:10, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Well.... I am generally opposed to pages reporting things that have not yet happened. I know that WP:CBALL allows for a lot of future events to be reported, but I find generally that far more future "facts" are reported than I would like. My suggestion would be to not include listing Canada as a host for those future years, but to report in a parenthetical comment below the table that "On May 9, 2009, the IIHF announced that Canada will host the tournament in 2015, 2017, 2019, and 2021". Whether or not Canada actually does host the tournament in those years, it is certainly true that the announcement that they would host them was made, thus reporting the announcement is not an attempt to predict the future at all and has the effect of conveying the same information. 142.177.24.151 (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Should Slovakia inherit Czechoslovakia's medals in their count?

In the medals table, the former Czechoslovakia's medals are added to the Czech Republic's medals to arrive at their medal total. I'd think Slovakia has as much claim to those medals as Czech, no? Atkinson (talk) 03:45, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

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