Talk:List of United States Navy aircraft designations (pre-1962)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merge List of US Naval aircraft here

This article is far more comprehensive than the older one. Karl Dickman ^talk 23:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Partial support: List of US Naval aircraft covers both the pre-1962 and post-1962 designation systems; the latter would fall under List of military aircraft of the United States. But for the (more logical) pre-1962 system aircraft, I'm all for it. - Aerobird ^{Target locked - Fox One!} 01:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support We can combine the two to one page, and split it: modern aircraft and retired aircraft (perhaps by era). Maybe we could do some info on US Naval aviation in general, since there is no article about such. List of active US Military Aircraft has a big section on naval aircraft as well as List of military aircraft of the United States... I think we should consider cutting out at least some of the five duplicates. Bahamut0013 18:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Very Strong Support. See here for what it might look like. Trekphiler (talk) 00:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Very Strong Support. I found the List of United States naval aircraft and the equivalent link List of US Naval aircraft and this page all very confusing. Please merge the smaller article into this one. I wrote in the Talk for the other page that I thought it should be deleted, but my Talk ended up not being applied. Threebs (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I suspect adding a comment in a five-year old discussion my not get you very far (also as far I can see you have not commented on any other related talk pages part from this one), suggest you start a new discussion at the bottom of this page to get some attention. MilborneOne (talk) 19:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: This list was originally split of (not that long ago) from List of military aircraft of the United States because of the size of that article. It was only to cover the pre-1962 system. List of US Naval aircraft did not originally have retired aircraft which have been added to confuse the situation. I understand the original idea was pre-1962 here post-1962 at List of military aircraft of the United States and active at List of active US Military Aircraft. So the list of US Naval aircraft just duplicates info in the other three. It does not make sense to have post-1962 aircraft here and what would probably be better is improving List of US Naval aircraft as Bahamut0013 suggested into an article on naval aviation. Or just turn List of US Naval aircraft into a list of active aircraft removed from List of active US Military Aircraft with a bit more narrative. MilborneOne (talk) 09:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:XF8U-3 2 from Vought.jpg

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Bee Line BR-1

Was this a US Navy designation or the company one? Petebutt (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Curtis-Cox Cactus Kitten

Somebody got their knickers in a twist with this one as the closest it got to the US Navy was coming second in the Pulitzer race, behind the Curtis CR Petebutt (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

ZMC-2

Zeppelin Metal Clad Airship (2000sq feet) (built in the US for the USN with no connection to the original zeppelin co) is missing but I am unsure of the category to put it under - any suggestions? NiD.29 (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Segregate the obsolete aircraft from current aircraft

"List of military aircraft of the United States (naval)" should include all current NAVAIR aircraft, and within this list the current aircraft should be segregated from the obsolete aircraft no longer in active use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.231.141.234 (talk) 01:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

There is already a page for that so it is not required. NiD.29 (talk) 06:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:List of United States Navy aircraft designations (pre-1962)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Includes almost every naval aircraft ever used. The only things we could possibly add are more specific information about the aircraft. Re-assessed as b-class, since it hasn't been peer reviewed, requires inline citations, and perhaps could use more photographs (an example of each class of aircraft maybe) - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 17:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted by JJMC89 bot (talk) at 22:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Moved. We see below one editor who opposes any move and other editors forming a consensus for a rename with little particular agreement for which name to use. In accord with WP:OTHEROPTIONS the closer chooses from available options. Looking over the proposed titles, one appears to stand out as best of the lot that was proposed by editor Mdewman6. So the new title for this article, List of United States Navy aircraft designations (pre-1962), will hopefully be a keeper. Also in accord with OTHEROPTIONS, the closer has to make it clear that "while consensus has rejected the former title (and no request to bring it back should be made lightly), there is no consensus for the title actually chosen. And if anyone objects to the closer's choice, then instead of taking it to move review, they should simply make another move request at any time, which will hopefully lead the article to its final stable title." Kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 11:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

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List of military aircraft of the United States (naval) → List of United States Navy aircraft designations (1922–1962) – The current title is inaccurate as this article is not a list of military naval aircraft of the United States, but a list of aircraft that had recieved designations under the 1922 United States Navy aircraft designation system, which was used until 1962. Naval aircraft from 1962 onward, which use the 1962 United States Tri-Service aircraft designation system, are covered in another article along with USAF aircraft. ZLEA _T\^C 02:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nominator's reasoning. LK (talk) 08:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support with caveat: I agree with ZLEA's reasoning, but the list also includes some pre-1922 aircraft designated under previous systems or never formally designated (the U.S. Navy stopped using its own designations from 1917 to 1922). I propose that pre-1922 aircraft be given their own list. Additionally, the current edit of the article misleadingly includes a picture of several modern navy aircraft. Carguychris (talk) 20:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Carguychris That's a good point, I would support splitting the pre-1922 designations from this article if there is a reasonable number of them to do so. Otherwise, they should probably get their own section in this article, separate from the 1922 sequence. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

ZLEA, on further consideration, there are few enough pre-1922 U.S. Navy aircraft that it would be reasonable to add them to the top of this list. Carguychris (talk) 15:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

So, if the pre-1922 content is to remain in this article, then the proposed new title isn't ideal. What about something like List of United States Navy aircraft designations (before 1962) (or maybe "pre-1962 instead), then create a redirect to the article about the modern designations at List of United States Navy aircraft designations (1962-present), and add hatnotes between each? In any case, I certainly agree the current title is confusing and inadequate. Mdewman6 (talk) 01:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Mdewman6 Carguychris What about a separate list for each of the following:

• US Navy designations, 1922–1962
• US Army Air Service designations, 1919–1924 (maybe merge this with 1924–1962)
• US Air Force designations, 1924–1962
• US Army designations, 1956–1962 (merged with 1956 United States Army aircraft designation system)
• US Tri-Service designations, 1962–present
• Undesignated US military aircraft (any aircraft used or acquired by the US military that has not received a designation in any sequence, including pre-sequence aircraft, divided into sections for each branch)

As you can see, each list would cover its own designation system, not aircraft used by each branch, since some branches shared designation systems and would lead to messy lists. Also, by listing all branches' undesignated aircraft into one list, we can avoid the need have sub-sections in the main lists for outliers. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I think that could work. I also see your split proposal over at List of military aircraft of the United States, which is long and unwieldy. I support whatever reorganization of the content that makes sense, as long as the titles reflect the content, and hatnotes, redirects, and dab pages are put in place as appropriate. Mdewman6 (talk) 19:25, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

ZLEA, I favor a slightly simpler approach.

• US Navy, USMC and USCG, 1911–1962
• US Army, 1909–1919
• US Army and US Air Force, 1919–1962
• Tri-Service, 1962–present

The 1919–1962 Army/AF list will still be pretty long, but the bulk of the length is 1924–1962, and it's difficult to come up with article titles meeting WP:CONCISE that adequately explain the distinction between the pre-1948 and post-1956 Army systems, keeping in mind that the uninitiated may not understand how the USAF is related to the US Army, nor that the army briefly had its own designation system after the USAF was created. I also don't think there are enough undesignated aircraft after the WWI era to warrant a separate list. Carguychris (talk) 15:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Carguychris The primary reason I split them the way I did was so that each list only contains aircraft that belong to a single designation system. The US Army and USAF systems are two entirely separate and unrelated sequences, so listing them together does not make sense. It's not like each list wouldn't link to their respective designation system articles, or even have a "See also" section with links to the other lists. I also am in favor of keeping the 1919 and 1924 USAF sequences separate since they too are separate even if they are loosely related. If there are not enough 1919–1924 designations to get their own article, then they should probably be listed in the designation system's main article.

I also notice that you propose listing undesignated 1909–1919 Army aircraft separate from the main sequences, but not for any other branches. Why not just list all undesignated US military aircraft in one article? - ZLEA _T\^C 15:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I will also point out that the list of undesignated aircraft would not exclusively include pre-designation system aircraft. The US military has acquired many foreign aircraft, either by trade or capture, and impressed them into service or evaluated them. While some of these did receive designations, many, such as the Hawker Hurricane or De Havilland Mosquito, did not. Since the lists would cover designation systems and not necessarily aircraft used by their respective branches, it would only make sense to include them in a separate article, especially if the undesignated aircraft falls in the post-1962 era where we none of the branches have their own system. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support move to List of United States Navy aircraft designations (before 1962) per Mdewman6. The current title is inaccurate, but the proposed new title is also inaccurate, because the article as it stands clearly includes pre-1922 aircraft. This RM seems to have evolved into a discussion about restructuring lists of US military aircraft. While that discussion seems constructive, I don't think this is place for it. @ZLEA: it would be helpful if you could clarify whether you agree with that title, so this RM can be closed. If the content of the article is subsequently changed, obviously the name can be changed to match, but for the time being it needs a name which reflects its current content. Havelock Jones (talk) 12:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I support whichever title reflects the current content. - ZLEA _T\^C 12:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't see a need for a move. All these issues were discussed at the prior merge discussion above. Any issues brought up here can be addressed with reorganization and section headers. - wolf 14:54, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

This issue is anyone reaching this page would reasonably expect to see a list of aircraft the U.S. Navy uses, but will not find anything after 1962, which is a major problem. The title should reflect its content. Mdewman6 (talk) 16:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.