Talk:List of beaches in Menorca

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Minorca which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:44, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 3 August 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. (non-admin closure) KSFT ^(t|c) 04:39, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

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List of beaches in Minorca → List of beaches in Menorca – (1) WP:CONSISTENCY with Menorca, Menorca Airport and (2) WP:COMMONNAME because a list of beaches is primarily about modern Menorca, not the history of Menorca so should follow (2.1) Google News Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, Financial Times, The Times, BBC News, BBC Weather, The Sun, The Star, The Independent, Metro newspaper London, The Express, The Mirror, Irish Times, New York Times, CNN, Forbes, Condé Nast Traveller, South China Morning Post HK, The Straits Times Singapore all using "Menorca" and (2.2) Google books 2001-2016 giving preference to books about modern Menorca 1,880 hits and excluding books related to the Napoleonic Wars. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:10, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose The move of Minorca to Menorca was done with only a minor discussion and without considering larger discussions in the past from other move requests opened by the same user and that ended up being brought down. Under WP:ENGLISH, "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources", which in this case would be "Minorca". "Minorca" is not a Napoleonic War-term, but rather, an active English term widely user by modern day reliable sources, as you can see in a wide range of different-themed sources at Google News (to name a few, National Geographic, The Times, travel agencies, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Vanity Fair, Vogue... etc). "Menorca" is also widely used, because it is the original language term, but it doesn't comply with WP:ENGLISH and it doesn't mean that "Minorca" is out of use, which absolutely isn't. Impru20 (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Impru20, do you see what's happened with your News search "Giant Rabbit Fossil Found" (2011) it is possible to find a few US News sources, and even a few UK News sources, but the ship has set sail. The US sources - like NY Times, Fodors, Berlitz, switched to follow UK usage between 2012 and 2015. "Minorca" isn't out of use in US sources, but you cannot claim that it is used as much as Menorca, the search results since 2010 in Gbooks and GNews are overwhelming. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, "Menorca" is used overwhelmingly, but "Minorca" is too. The fact is that they are both used interchangeably, but under WP:ENGLISH, in such a disjunctive the English term should be preferred over the native one. Here and in other articles, you've consistently argued for keeping the "Menorca" term in place that "Minorca" is an English exonym and that it comes from the British colony/Napeolonic Wars period, but the fact is that it is of latin origin, not English (the latin word Minorica, in fact, being closer to "Minorca" than to "Menorca") and it has been proven that it is a very actual term widely used in reliable sources. I've not contested your claim that "Menorca" is widely used, but just as places such as Majorca (an island in the same archipielago), Seville, Biscay (which I already pointed out) or Navarre. All of these are widely referenced in their native languages in English sources, but the English terms are, too, and as a result, the English terms are preferred under WP:ENGLISH. Then you have situations such as Juan Carlos I, whose name is only widely known in English RS in its native form and not in its English translation ("John Charles I"). "Menorca/Minorca" would belong to the first group. Impru20 (talk) 15:01, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

They can't both be used overwhelmingly. In a beach related GNews comparison from 2013-2017 Minorca gets 5 results while Modern Menorca gets 102 results. That is overwhelmingly "Menorca". That is 95.5% in favour of "Menorca is" in GNews related to hotels, restaurants, beaches. And it's nearer 98% if we take only 2016-2017. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:31, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

This is evolving into the same discussion as we're having in here. I already posted you evidence of Minorca being widely used (and I'm not arguing "Menorca" isn't), so your selective search queries are rather redundant. You need to write "minorca is" hotel OR beach OR restaurant and menorca is" hotel OR beach OR restaurant and set it at a specific timespan to get the results you argue to get, but I think that's a very intrincate search that a reasonable person looking for information of the island would even attempt. Ever. A more reasonable search may get you literally millions of results for both of them, and searches for "Menorca" may include native language's sources that can't be counted under WP:ENGLISH. I mean, you've tried to pretend "Minorca" is an old-fashioned term no longer in use nowadays. I've proven you that it's indeed in use, and even you yourself would acknowledge that if you stopped doing selective searches. I've already linked to what is stated by WP:ENGLISH and WP:DIVIDEDUSE (which states that search-engine counts over 1,000 may be "seriously wrong" and can't be reliable). You keep on trying to base your arguments on rather intrincate Internet searches to provide for a seemingly lopsized preference for "Menorca" over "Minorca" which is not true in reality. Both terms are used interchangeably as I've already proven to you. Impru20 (talk) 16:08, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Please, Impru. As I said three times, this is the fourth, please prove it. Please present evidence from 2013-2017 sources that Menorca is not the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME for Menorca in GNews and GBooks. Saying that GNews is inaccurate when it comes up with 95% in favour of Menorca is simply WP:IDON'TLIKEIT and not credible because anyone can click through the BBC etc. and see that GNews results are telling the truth. (BTW I appreciate that "Minorca" was the English name. I grew up being taught "Minorca" too. But we cannot stop the English language. If you want to then please don't say it, prove it) In ictu oculi (talk) 16:25, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I already did in the other discussion but you keep ignoring it. You manipulate your own searches to give false figures, because it's just untrue that GNews comes 95% in favour of Menorca, and I already explained why. WP:IDON'TLIKEIT seems rather to apply to you, who consistently refuse to answer my own comments and keep answering the same all over and over again despite me having noted you on the futility of such a behaviour. Impru20 (talk) 16:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

In "Menorca is" vs "Minorca is" GNews comparison from 2013-2017 "Minorca is" gets 8 results while "Menorca is" gets 124 results 93.5% in favour of "Menorca is" in GNews. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:56, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, and why do you search for that? "Minorca is" (with the quotations) is not a frequent search term at all (in fact, it's wrong because you assume that everytime Minorca/Menorca is mentioned, it's followed by "is", when that's by no means true. If you search for overall results using Minorca/Menorca AND island (so that both terms are included in the search, but not meaning those have to be strictly together in a sentence) during the last year you get 109,000 results for Minorca AND island and 330,000 for Menorca AND island (including Spanish and Catalan sources). In GBooks, during the 21st century you get 3,480 for Minorca AND island and 2,900 for Menorca AND island (and note that without the time limit, this would be a truly lopsized win for Minorca). For GNews, it's 3,900 for Minorca AND island and 11,900 for Menorca AND island. Sure, Menorca has an edge in these (except for books), but (1) this isn't as lopsized as you pretend it to be, (2) this clearly shows that "Minorca" is still widely used despite calls on the contrary, and (3) this wasn't something that didn't happened before, and it was still rejected.

So are you still defending that "Minorca" is just an old-fashioned term used during the Napoleonic Wars but not nowadays? Menorca may have get a hold in English sources, but it's still far from overriding "Minorca". Specially when considering that we must set very short timespans for "Minorca" to get lesser results than "Menorca", or discard seemingly outdated sources, because otherwise Minorca still would win big. Again, note on WP:DIVIDEDUSE that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Impru20 (talk) 17:48, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course, we may provide lots of different searches, but that only shows how easy is to manipulate others into believing something is very lopsized when it isn't.

Ignoring the personal attack "manipulate" etc. No no-one is "defending that "Minorca" is just an old-fashioned term used during the Napoleonic Wars but not nowadays", what is being said by your own data above is that "Minorca" which is still used in GBooks concerning the Napoleonic Wars, and was still used by US sources in 2008, has since 2012-2015 largely passed to modern UK usage which is Menorca. That is what has been said. And that is what your own searches show. And therefore WP:COMMONNAME is what you recognize GNews says it is. That is your GNews search above, not mine. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:15, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONSISTENCY with the main article now at Menorca. The main article was moved following an RM where it was shown that that spelling has apparently become more common in current English sources, judging by 21st-century hits in Google Books ([1] vs. [2]) and ([3] vs. [4])--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:16, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Your own sources place people named as "Menorca" in the search results (the first results, in fact), so its obvious it would result in more hits than Minorca, because it refers not only to the island but to a larger variety of things. I already stated this to you in the discussion in the main article, and I'm quite surprised you didn't figure this out yourself. Impru20 (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

The number of hits for other things named either "Menorca" or "Minorca" appears to be negligible compared to hits for the island.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:28, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, it surely depends on what you search for. Because if you look for Minorca/Menorca AND island in GBooks (thus ensuring that anything mentioning "Minorca/Menorca" is related to "island"), there's still an edge for Minorca (3,480 for Minorca AND island and 2,900 for Menorca AND island), and the edge for Menorca is well below a 90% preference for Menorca nowadays.

As I said in the other talk page, the initial discussion for the other page's move was very poorly developed and not thoroughly thought. If you had cared to check previous RMs, maybe the discussion could have been more productive at spotting things such as what is being searched and how. Because depending on the search, I may obtain very different results for Minorca and Menorca (I'm obviously not linking here all possibilities, because there could be as endless as I could think of) but note how arguments are being built here on the basis of search results for specific search results such as "minorca is" (curious, since Minorca/Menorca are predominantly used as stand-alone words without the "Island" next to it). Entirely neutral searches in Google for each term gives you millions of results. I'm quite surprised that no one did even consider that WP:DIVIDEDUSE would be of application here, given that both of them are in use. Yeah, there may be English sources using "Menorca" and I may concede that "Minorca" was used more predominantly before, but it's too soon to say that "Menorca" has universally replaced "Minorca" as the English preferred-word. CNN mostly uses "Menorca", The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and National Geographic mostly use "Minorca", others use both interchangeably... I see a reasoning being built for it to be changed in the future, but as of now, consensus in the original article was very clear, and its title was very stable for 15 years. Or are we going to re-edit the whole Wikipedia every year depending on which term is in use at each time (something which DIVIDEDUSE intends to discourage)? And I'm sorry, but all of this previous consensus and stability was overriden all of a sudden by just two users (one of them using the same evidences and same reasonins to press for the move for years despite being rejected) during the cover of summer. Impru20 (talk) 18:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

For some reason, your search results are for google.es, which throws them off. I'm still getting more returns for "Menorca" in searches for Menorca island than for Minorca island, as well as for similar searches like Menorca Spain vs. Minorca Spain.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:03, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support. While I have some sympathy for the opposition in that I personally think of it as "Minorca" and the newer name grates on me, there's no evidence that supports re-opening the Minorca->Menorca RM, so we should be consistent. Andrewa (talk) 13:59, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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