Talk:Lists of massacres in Palestine

scope

This article includes incidents that took place before the area was renamed "Palestine" by the Romans. Please explain. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Remove them if you wish. nableezy - 04:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The first two incidents in the list took place when the land was still called "Israel", before the name was changed. Should they be relocated to the list of massacres in Israel? --68.6.227.26 (talk) 02:14, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

No, they took place when it was called Judea, a province of the Roman Empire. I wouldnt oppose a move of this to List of massacres in Palestine and Judea, but I dont exactly think its necessary either. The name Palestine was in use then, though not officially adopted as the name of a province. nableezy - 06:45, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

It was occupied/ruled by Rome at the time, but Judea was still considered part of Israel, more specifically the Herodian kingdom of Israel. I think that it would be better to make a separate article for "List of massacres in Judea" or "List of massacres in ancient Israel" rather than changing the name. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure, feel free. nableezy - 23:50, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I have not made any new articles before and am trying to figure out how it works. Do you know if it requires an account? --68.6.227.26 (talk) 01:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

It does, but tell me which name you want it at and Ill make it for you (if youd like). nableezy - 06:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I think it would be best to go with "List of massacres in ancient Israel" rather than Judea because the former would cover a wider scope. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

@Nableezy a dozen years later this set of articles is still a mess and the List of massacres in the State of Palestine pages is suspiciously sparse. How about everything before the fall of the ottoman empire goes on "list of historical massacres in the Levant"? MWQs (talk) 21:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually, that's a redirect to here, I was thinking of List of massacres in the Palestinian territories. That page, implausibly, has about 10. I know a Tunisian heavy metal song with a more comprehensive list than that page. MWQs (talk) 22:03, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Ambiguity

Considering the recent upgrade of State of Palestine and the ongoing disputes, this article should be renamed accordingly to reduce confusion. It should either be renamed to "List of massacres in Southern Levant" or split into articles such as "List of massacres in Southern Syria" and "List of massacres in Byzantine Palaestina". This is not a formal rename proposal, please raise opinions to decide the best title, then we go on procedural move.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose The UN vote changes very little with regards to ambiguity, the State of Palestine has existed and been widely recognized sense before Wikipedia existed. Also very few articles have "Southern Levant" in their title. This really isn't the place to have this sort of discussion, there's no reason to treat this page differently then other pages about Palestine such as List of birds of Palestine, History of pottery in Palestine, Demographics of Palestine, and Postage stamps and postal history of Palestine (unless you want to argue that it should be split for reasons unrelated to the UN vote or "ongoing disputes"). This is far too prone to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS to result in a viable outcome. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Considering this was proposed and the only user to comment disagreed, I see no reason why the article should be split now as it just was. If there is a list on the state then we can talk about how, or whether, to disambiguate this list, but for now each of the listed events fits fine within the title in Palestine. nableezy - 16:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

From what I've seen, "Palestine" was not the most common name for the land area at the time of most of the massacres on the list. It would be more accurate and more informative to split the articles based on time period, as has already been done in the case "List of massacres in Israel", "List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine", and "List of massacres in ancient Israel". --1ST7 (talk) 20:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Sources please. nableezy - 20:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This and this indicate that "Ottoman Syria" or "Greater Syria" would be the most appropriate term for the land area during the Ottoman era. --1ST7 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

And this shows that Palestine would be appropriate. nableezy - 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

That only covers the years 634 to 1099 and only justifies the inclusion of the first two events on the list. Greyshark09 should probably be notified of this discussion, as I believe he was the one who initially created the List of massacres in Ottoman Syria, and it might help to get his rationale. --1ST7 (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

"Ottoman Syria" covers much more than the scope of the list. Yes that was the name used for the entire combined area of roughly the combined area of the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinian territories. But the name of the area covered by this article continued to be "Palestine". Feel free to notify Greyshark, though I suspect he or she has this article in his or her watchlist. nableezy - 20:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

"Ottoman Syria" does cover a wider scope, but that just means other events can be added to the list as a result. I am in favor of keeping the List of massacres in Palestine for those that took place during the Byzantine era, as "Palestine" or "Palaestina" appears to be the most widely used term during that time. --1ST7 (talk) 21:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this should be used for the region of Palestine for when that was the most common name for that specific region. Which includes the reign of the Ottomans. nableezy - 22:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

At this point, you have only supplied a specific source to support that stance for the years 634 to 1099. --1ST7 (talk) 21:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Merge and unbalanced focus

The content of this article is greatly overlapping with List of massacres in Ottoman Syria, so I suggest they should be merged.

We have a separate problem here though, which is that the list of massacres in both articles is skewed towards massacres in which the victims were predominantly Jewish. So for example, despite the huge upheavals in the region in 1517, 1660, 1834 and 1838, we ignore all the massacres which took place at other locations throughout the region.

That is of course primarily because of the amount of right-wing pro-Zionist research that has been devoted to trying to undermine the statement that "Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in the region prior to Zionism", whereas there has been no such motivation to write scholarly articles on every other sub-incident of the upheavals in 1517, 1660, 1834 and 1838, so we cannot write wiki-articles on them either.

Oncenawhile (talk) 08:30, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

As you'll see in the above discussion, I think it's best to use this article, List of massacres in Palestine, for events that occurred prior to the Ottoman era. The List of massacres in Ottoman Syria can be used for those that occurred in the Levant during the Ottoman era. This way there would be no overlap. As it is right now, neither title can encompass all of the massacres on the list on its own, as List of massacres in Ottoman Syria covers the entire Levant and List of massacres in Palestine covers the pre-Ottoman period. --1ST7 (talk) 01:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying "List of massacres in Palestine" SHOULD cover the pre-Ottoman period? As it stands, 80% of this article is covering the Ottoman period.

Separately what is your view on the "unbalanced focus" concern above? Oncenawhile (talk) 06:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm saying that "List of massacres in Palestine" should cover the pre-Ottoman period, while all incidents that occurred afterwards can be moved to "List of massacres in Ottoman Syria" if they're not there already, thus eliminating the overlap. As for "unbalanced focus", it's possible that the majority of massacre victims during this time period were Jewish, though I'm not familiar enough with this specific era to be certain. You seem to be saying that the list is overlooking massacres with non-Jewish victims due to lack of articles, but you don't need a link to add an event to the list. If you know of any other massacres that are not mentioned, you just need a reliable source to add it on. --1ST7 (talk) 23:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• I think the List of massacres in Palestine should be a disambig page to redirect to List of massacres in the State of Palestine, List of massacres in the Palestinian National Authority, List of massacres in Mandatory Palestine and List of massacres in Byzantine Palaestina. Nothing to merge.GreyShark (dibra) 17:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The merge was not done as no consensus. The alternative then is to ensure separate scopes for the two articles. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Criteria

What inclusion criteria is being followed for this article? Since this article is effectively a sub-article of List of events named massacres, I suggest we use the criteria clearly stated at Talk:List of events named massacres. OK? Oncenawhile (talk) 08:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Original research

This article is nothing but original research. Allegedly a list of "massacres" that took place in Palestine, none of the three incidents listed is generally referred to, by historians or by the public, as a massacre. Ridiculous! — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:00, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Agree, there is WP:OR flag here.GreyShark (dibra) 19:21, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

This is severely outdated.

There’s enormous amounts of massacres in Palestine right now. Wikipedia should be tracking them. 144.121.36.242 (talk) 13:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

There's over 160 in Arabic Wikipedia, just from the current war. MWQs (talk) 21:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

This is not a page

This is just a disambiguation page, there's no real content. Possibly it should be turned into a redirect? But I worry about losing the history. MWQs (talk) 21:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)