Talk:List of national founders

Russia is not Europe

Every Russian knows that. One of the "founding fathers" here cited (Peter the Great) is credited with "opening a window" to Europe due to his travels there and his ensuing attempts to bring some of the European customs over to Russia. I'm putting it under "Eurasia" which is where it in fact is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.191.22.164 (talk) 18:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Would it be better to put it under Asia instead? Most of the Russian Federation's territory is in Asia after all. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 13:39, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

So this is the origins of this Eurasia thing. Barjimoa (talk) 16:46, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

What Islamic state?

The Pakistan Jinnah founded was not a constitutionally defined Islamic state. It was a state based modelled on British lines with a British constitution and where there was a separation of church and state.

While Pakistan later became an islamic republic... that was after his death.

>>>Correction: Jinnah did not give Pakistan a constitution, Pakistan had no constitution while he was alive. Also, Paksitan was founded as an Islamic state as according to the TWO NATION THEORY, regardless of the fact that Jinnah in his private life was a secular person.

The Lahore Resolution and the Two Nation Theory did not envisage Pakistan as an Islamic state. Those who wanted an Islamic state were opposed to Jinnah. Also you ought to update yourself on your information. Pakistan had an interim constitution: Government of India Act, 1935 adapted as the Pakistani Constitution. Jinnah wanted to give Pakistan a secular constitution, it is well known. Egopearl 07:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

>>>>Hey, why is Australia listed under Asia?! Invmog (talk) 14:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Put USA on top of examples list.

I put the USA on the top of the example list; most people looking for "founding fathers" would mean "founding fathers of the USA" anyway.

Oh yeah, I'm registered, but something on the log-in page fails on my browser (Opera). My username is leokennis...

I might add that's why I came here...I've never even heard it used outside of the US before with a few South American exceptions. Is this actually native usage or a really weird attempt at cultural neutrality? The examples of European "foudning fathers" seems like more than a stretch. If you want to run to weird foundational arguments I didn't even see mention of Charlemagne :) Nickjost 23:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a redirect to the page on US founding fathers, and it is a common term for other countries to adopt (although in some cases it is the same meaning but with different terms - "father of the nation" or "fathers of confederation" for example). It is a term often used in reference to those of the European Union, in fact in most countries it seems to be a tool of nationalism as it has now become one of the most have symbols. Most are cited though so you can check out the sources for what terms etc are used. - J Logan ^t: 08:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Evidently no less than George H. Nash claims that the term was coined by Warren Harding and used for "American" founding fathers. The links that use founding fathers here don't appear to be that scholarly. It is a formal term and a formal term associated with the development of the US which is why it can be used without a modifier and in plural form, "the Founding Fathers" in the US where it can't be elsewhere. Nickjost (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly or not it has begun to be used commonly in other states, or at least its meaning. Do you have an alternative term to use that will convey the same thing to the reader?- J Logan ^t: 10:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Given scholarly usage and the fact that this is a minority viewpoint in the language at large and, oddly enough, only in English, wouldn't this constitute a minority opinion per NPOV? Nickjost (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyone??? Nickjost (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Minority viewpoint in the US maybe, not in those countries listed though. That's why they're on there. You could dispute a few but on the whole I'd cosndier it POV to just have the US. This is after all a list of states, the US FFs have their own page too.- J Logan ^t: 14:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Churchill and a few name changes.

I added Winston Churchill to the list of European founding fathers, and I renamed it from "Europe" to "European Union" to clarify. Churchill on many occasions spoke of the need for a "United States of Europe". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Walshicus (talk • contribs) 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Although he also said that Britain should not be part of that 92.24.76.182 (talk) 19:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Portugal has no such thing

Portugal has no such thing as "founding fathers." The example given is that of a count whose son became a king - singular, so in any case the country would have a single "founding father." In fact, Afonso I of Portugal is sometimes referred to as "father of the [Portuguese] nationhood," but to call him "fathers" is to stretch the definition a bit too much. Other monarchs have been instrumental in Portugal's independence throughout the years, but they are not known collectively by any name.

And what in heaven's name is Mário Soares doing in the founding fathers of the European Union? What did he do, except sign Portugal into the Community in 1986? And wouldn't any other prime-minister do the same thing? – Tintazul ^msg 11:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

List

Unless this is expanded more on the topics of founding fathers, this ought to be renamed "List of founding fathers". - J Logan ^t: 19:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Why only countries and states?

Why not include scholarly or scientific fields. With the current contents I propose to rename the article to list of founding fathers of states. Andries (talk) 22:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the reason "nationa" was added in the title. Says the same thing.- J Logan ^t: 14:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Azerbaijan in Europe?

I can't really see a reason why Azerbaijan should be included in the Europe category, so I'm moving it to Asia.--Noelfielding (talk) 12:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Philippines and Jose Rizal

I have added in Jose Rizal from the Philippines. He is not a founder of the country per se but he was instrumental in its founding and is the official "National Hero" of the Philippines and part of the Philippine Revolution generation. Further, nearly every town plaza has a statue of him. The concept of National Hero is close enough to a Founding Father to be included I think. --Bruce Hall (talk) 12:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Addition of Patel to India

Sardar Vallabhai Patel was the first Deputy Prime Minister of India and is credited for the accession of 565 princely/autonomous states to India in 1947, who were given the choice of independence, or accession to India or Pakistan. In the 1946 election for Congress Presidency(and thus for the future PM of India), 13 out of 16 state representatives voted for Patel. On Gandhi's insistence, Patel stepped aside for Nehru to take the post. Patel is widely known as the 'Iron Man of India' and was second only to Nehru in post-independence politics. He is credited to have revamped the All India Services.--Sayitaintsojoe (talk) 10:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not found a citation that calls him a founding father, like in the cases of Gandhi, Nehru & Ambedkar, but then 'founding father' is an American concept and has no real relevance in the Indian Movement. Also, the other citations are really epithets given by a western journal(for Gandhi and Nehru) and an alma mater(for Ambedkar)

--Sayitaintsojoe (talk) 19:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Fathers?

Anyone else have a problem with the current name of this list: "List of national founding fathers? While it does seem that they were mostly men, wouldn't it be more enclopedic to say: "List of national founders"? I propose that we make that change. Any concerns? Assuming that there are no major objections, I will make the change on January 6, 2009. Sunray (talk) 21:01, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

"Fathers" encompasses both men and women. It would not be more encyclopedic to change it, but just more of the PC bullcrap that the world is more and more filled with today. Same logic why it is now a sin to use "chairman" and "anchorman" 76.77.225.169 (talk) 07:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

"'Fathers' encompasses both men and women." Interesting statement. Please elaborate. With respect to your comment that referring to "founders" would not be more encyclopedic, please note that the Manual of Style suggests otherwise, and bear in mind that "Gender neutral language does not inherently convey a particular viewpoint, political agenda or ideal." Sunray (talk) 10:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

For one thing, the American founders are known as the "founding fathers." Turning it PC because people find reasons to get upset is very unencyclopedic. 76.77.225.169 (talk) 21:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The article would still refer to the American "Founding Fathers" because that is the most common way of referring to them. Sunray (talk) 02:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Page moved to "List of national founders" Sunray (talk) 23:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see a single woman on this list. So there were no ladies involved in the founding of nations? 68.37.254.48 (talk) 01:16, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

RFPP

I like Stephen Colbert (in small quantities) as much as the next guy, but I've requested page protection for this article —EqualRights (talk) 23:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Tanzania

There should be section on Nyerere as the founding father of Tanzania. Within Tanzania, he is known as Baba wa Taifa, or Father of the Nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.129.228 (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Big portraits

Is there any way that the portraits could be made a uniform size that is preferably smaller? Otherwise it seems to be giving more importance to some leaders and not others. While I won't argue with the fact that both Gandhi and Ataürk are awesome, there's no reason for them to be given larger portraits (the same with the others). It also makes loading times slower for people with bad connections. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 05:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Israel

Why is David Ben Gurion not listed on this page? O_O Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 05:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

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Founding fathers of India

It should be clearly mentioned that Republic of India has no official founding father. Many people are informally termed founding fathers, as the article discusses.

I find it dubious that Mahatma Gandhi is mentioned under the founding fathers of the Republic of India. By the time India attained independence, Gandhi's influence within the Indian National Congress and in the subcontinent's politics had already waned. Gandhi was not instrumental in creating the structure of the modern Indian republic. He was not a member of the Constituent Assembly and neither did he hold any official post in independent India. Further, the model of the Indian nation that Gandhi envisaged was discarded in favour of the Nehruvian model of socio-economic development. The reason why Gandhi is called the Father of the Nation in India is because of the popular and affectionate epithet "Bapu" that he earned from the people of the country, which informally means Father, and not because of his role in shaping modern India. However in this respect, even the term Father of the Nation as defined in the Wikipedia article does not apply to Gandhi.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmajumder (talk • contribs) 22:07, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Turkey

Why in both Asia and Europe ? Wanxpy (talk) 05:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

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Germany Section

What does " Adolf Hitler hold the state of Germany during the WWII" mean. This should surely either be edited to make sense, or removed.

Sovietblobfish (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

@Sovietblobfish: I concur. It was added here, and I removed it. Vici Vidi (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Culling needed

This article has turned into one of those articles where people can play around and throw in personal opinion that is loosely related to the title. The first president is not necessarily a county's founding father, for example. Some places simply don't have a distinct founding father/s, so don't try to invent one. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:22, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree. This has become a list where whoever wants to promotes some idea or someone pushes them in, it needs a big culling. Vici Vidi (talk) 05:36, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

This page has only got more out of hand since 2022, if I can get some support I'll go through the page and remove any unsourced content and any item who isn't reffered to as a "National Father" or some variation in citations. DervotNum4 (talk) 04:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No mention of the Israelite patriarchs?

Although the modern state of Israel is different from the ancient one, they are still in some way descended from the multiple ancient patriarchs of biblical history. Who would be listed, whether it would be Abraham or Jacob or Moses, I don't know. 163.53.144.10 (talk) 10:16, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Following on my recent edit here, I agree. However your use of the term country is confusing. The final two paragraphs of the lead section of the Country article say:

The definition and usage of the word "country" is flexible and has changed over time. The Economist wrote in 2010 that "any attempt to find a clear definition of a country soon runs into a thicket of exceptions and anomalies." Most sovereign states, but not all countries, are members of the United Nations. ... The largest country by area is Russia, while the smallest is the microstate Vatican City. The most populous is India, while Vatican City is also the least populous.

This article uses the tern Nation. That term, IMO, is closer to what is intended here, but still needs clarification. The Nation article says

"Anthony D Smith defines nations as cultural-political communities that have become conscious of their autonomy, unity and particular interests. ... The consensus among scholars is that nations are socially constructed, historically contingent, and organizationally flexible.

I picture a country as a geographical area identifiable by name over some time period with borders that may change during that time period (there are many examples of that), and a nation as a named social entity that may govern zero or more countries over definable time ranges. The character and/or naming details of such governments may change from one governmental time period to the next, with a different list of founders for each such change (e.g., this government and the governments that preceded and succeeded it), with each government or series of governments having a unique set of founders.

That is messy, and would lead to a long and complicated list of lists of founders for many nations (or countries, or whatever). Better and more useful, I think, to recast and rename this article to something like List of national governments by country with a list of countries, a sub-list of zero or more national names, and one or more {sub-)sub-lists of government names -- each of those government lists possibly being linked to a WP article and such articles possibly having info about the founders of each of those governments. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 15:25, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Should this article be renamed and/or better defined?

@user:RegentsPark and others. This title is so vague the article can only ever be a list of names with some sort of link to a country. Shouldn't we first define more accurately what we mean by 'founder' of a country? Or even what constitutes a country's foundation? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 03:56, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Repeating a suggestion I made above:

Better and more useful, I think, to recast and rename this article to something like List of national governments by country with a list of countries, a sub-list of zero or more national names, and one or more {sub-)sub-lists of government names -- each of those government lists possibly being linked to a WP article and such articles possibly having info about the founders of each of those governments.

Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Sudan

The national founder of the modern Sudanese state was not Ibrahim Abboud. Sudan does not have a national founder. The closest thing we have to a national founder could be Azhari, Ahmed, Mahgoub or the Mahdi. Kryako (talk) 08:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I have removed Abboud from the list DervotNum4 (talk) 03:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Cull

I mentioned this in another section but I'm making a proper section for it. This page has a lot of original research in it, most likely from someone who didn't understand what a national founder was (Somewhat understandable given that the term "national founder" seems to have been for or less invented by this page) as the page is full of individuels who were the first leader of their country but who either had no hand in it's creation, aren't treated as the founder of their nation by the nation's people or both. I am looking to go through the page and remove any entry that is either A- Unsourced or B- Sourced but with sources that don't mention "national founder" or an equivalent term. DervotNum4 (talk) 03:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm starting off by removing entries which don't meet the criteria set up in the lead in any regard. (Those that list when ancient people first settled a place and those that just list the first European to map an area) DervotNum4 (talk) 03:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)