Talk:List of people who disappeared mysteriously at sea

Simon Parkes' inclusion

I would argue that Simon Parkes should not be included in this list as the ship put to sea without him. The lede states "those lost on open water". Parkes disappeared on dry land and even if he fell into the sea and drowned from dry land, his entry does not fit the parameters of this article. Regards. The joy of all things (talk) 07:29, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

Is this a list of people who died in shipwrecks? Because that would be silly given how many. My understanding it is people who disappeared in a mysterious way ie. we don't know where and/or when and/or how they were lost. For example an entry was just added that says "Lane vanished during the sinking of the RMS Lusitania in May 1915." This is not a disappearance or vanishing, we know exactly where, when and how the RMS Lusitania sank. We should establish clear criteria and the lead section be more explicit. The article title might also use the word "mysterious" in-line with the other articles in this series because "disappeared" can mean simply the body was not recovered which is the case most of the time in the ocean. -- GreenC 19:13, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree. And have removed Lane's entry. His inclusion is inconsistent twice over. Firstly, in terms of the asserted inclusion criteria, "non-mysterious" events (like the Titanic and other similar sinkings) are expressly excluded. (How are those lost with the Titanic not "mysterious", but one person lost in the Lusitania sinking somehow is?) And secondly, if he's included purely because his remains were not recovered, then the same could be said of hundreds of others - including several of those considered notable enough for inclusion in the Sinking of the RMS Lusitania#Died list (How are all others lost in the Lusitania not "mysterious", but Lane alone somehow is?). Anyway (even ignoring the inconsistencies) Lane's inclusion is contrary to the stated inclusion criteria. And so I have removed. Guliolopez (talk) 11:26, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Henry Hudson has the same issue. There is no mystery here, his crew mutinied against him. I also question why there are mythological/cryprozoological entries such as the Fish-man. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Michel de Grammont's fate is also known and not at all mysterious, as are Trevarton Charles Sholl and Arthur Warbrick and Helmut Wick and John Dundas (RAF officer) and Denver V. Truelove The list seems to conflate "remains were not recovered" with "disappeared mysteriously". It's not that mysterious that the bodies of pilots shot down during war were not all recovered. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:20, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

In the same vein: Robert Bartels, Erwin Clausen,Paul Meyer (1969 theft of C-130), Henry E. Stebbins, Art Scholl, Scott Smith (musician), Daniel Küblböck, and David Ibbotson (2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:51, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

It does seem that the purpose of the article has become somewhat muddled when, for good example, of the seven 2010-Present "mysterious disappearances", five are merely cases were people have died at sea in substantiated ways and whose bodies were later found (often within several days) or people who simply were lost at sea and were later found. While these events, at the time, might be seen as a mystery we surely should cease to include them on a list of mysteries once they've been duly explained or resolved.107.77.206.20 (talk) 11:19, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Should Jaume Ferrer be included?

Jaume Ferrer was, to quote his Wikipedia article, "a Majorcan captain who set out in a galley in 1346 and sailed down the West African coast in an attempt to reach the legendary 'River of Gold'." Should he be included? It might be debatable since he may have died an unrecorded death on the African mainland.--Thylacine24 (talk) 14:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Location of publisher not mentioned in book copyright

(Note: I originally posted this on the help desk.)

The copyright of the book in question, Prince Henry 'the Navigator, mentions the publisher as "Yale University [Press]", but not the publishing location as New Haven. Could anyone please tell me if it's acceptable to list New Haven as the publisher?--Thylacine24 (talk) 14:43, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Nevermind, turns out the book did list the full name of the publisher and its location (New Haven and London) in the copyright. Sorry.--Thylacine24 (talk) 15:16, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Vasco de Ataíde

Could anyone here please tell me if Vasco de Ataíde is a suitable candidate for this page?--Thylacine24 (talk) 17:42, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

He and his ship and crew disappeared under unexplained circumstances. Unexplained is not the same as mysterious. Was there any mystery about his disappearance? No, it was a simple unwitnessed loss of a vessel at sea, therefore this individual should not be added to the list. Akld guy (talk) 20:21, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

"Unexplained is not the same as mysterious." Could you please tell me what the exact difference is? (Edit: Thanks for responding.)--Thylacine24 (talk) 21:03, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Mysterious means that there were unusual circumstances that went far beyond a mere lack of explanation. There was nothing unusual about the disappearance of this ship. Compare MV Joyita and Mary Celeste where there were mysterious circumstances that should not have led to the disappearance of those on board. Akld guy (talk) 22:21, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, if you insist. Thanks. (Edit: Used wrong number of colons. Meant to respond to you about a week earlier. Sorry.)--Thylacine24 (talk) 00:13, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Should Rudolf Diesel be included?

Hi, this is my first entry on any Wikipedia page, so I apologize for any errors on my part. I have a suggestion to make regarding an addition to this article: Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the Diesel engine, mysterioulsy disappeared when crossing the English Channel on a ferry - however, there are indications that his body was found, but could not be recovered, so maybe he doesn't really qualify for this list here? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel for more ... Dirk70HB (talk) 19:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

We're now saying his body was recovered and personal items were with it. That doesn't sound like a person "whose whereabouts remain unknown" to me. It's a solved case, surely. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:36, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

According to this article, Diesel’s remains were found off the coast of Norway, whereas Rudolf Diesel’s article refers to newspaper articles that claim that the body was found in the Eastern Scheldt, an estuary in Zealand, Netherlands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E3:F28:3600:8A6:3938:E4E1:3B80 (talk) 09:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Ages

I’m going to remove the age in 2020, as it becomes a little ridiculous when they're 110+ years old. Naihreloe (talk) 10:16, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Solved cases

By definition, these are outside the scope of the article. I thus propose to remove the section. 82.132.241.222 (talk) 06:18, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Pitcairn & Falconer Aurora 1769

Same ship's namme, same area, same date: are these a single incident? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 15:56, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Nominator is an indef-blocked sock. GreenC 15:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

---

List of people who disappeared mysteriously at sea → List of people who disappeared or died at sea – A more accurate title for this article - some of the listed disappearances/deaths are not mysterious, unless one is inclined to look at them that way (e.g. Robert Bartels). I would also suggest removing mythological entities from this list, as I wouldn't really see them as "people". AFreshStart (talk) 18:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• Strong oppose More than a page move, it changes the scope to include anyone who died at sea for any reason, which is not something Wikipedia should be tracking in a list article. There are far too many. This list was created because someone broke it out from List of people who disappeared mysteriously when that list got too long. It was never intended to have a list of people who died at sea. -- GreenC 20:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

  I understand that, but the article title ought to represent what the page is about. This doesn't. Please tell me what is mysterious about the death of Robert Bartels (for example) or Robert Maxwell (excluding conspiracy theories, which Wikipedia should not be tacitly giving a nod to by saying his death was "mysterious", despite the personal opinions of editors). -- AFreshStart (talk) 09:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

  Uh, when you see a problem with some list members not meeting list scope you delete the members, not change the entire scope to fit a few questionable members. I've been deleting members from this and other lists for years. Also, you are now perma blocked as a sock so I expect you won't be doing anything further. I am closing this RM since no one else has voted and it's been nearly 7 days. -- GreenC 15:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jimmy Hampson

There appears to be nothing mysterious about the death of Jimmy Hampson. I propose removing him from this list.Bill (talk) 02:24, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. In fact, the same could be said about many of the people in this list. Robert Maxwell, for example, didn't "disappear". His body was found soon after he was reported missing. And if there was a mystery about his death, it was resolved by the post-mortem and inquest. Mike Marchmont (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Franklin Expedition Members

I find it strange that some members of the exepedition are on the list and others are not. The Franklin expedition is listed as "Victoria Strait". Some crew members are included under the Tag "Norwest Passage" or "King William Island". James Fitzjames is listed as Nunavut.

I think, if anything, they should all Franklin expedition members should be covered by the Franklin Expidition entry. I say "if anything" as the fate of the Franklin expedition has not been "Mysterious" for over 150 years; The direct and final causes of deaths are under some debate and may be uncertain but it is generally understood that they had died in Canadas north. There is no evidence that there were any survivours.

Francis Crozier is also listed as unkown location but singling him out with out more evidance maybe unwarrented.

Zippyfx (talk) 21:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Bad list?

This list is very low quality in my opinion, the article says it's "a list of known individuals who have mysteriously vanished in open waters, and whose whereabouts remain unknown", yet the list contains people who didn't 'mysteriously disappear' and are not lost.

ARA San Juan crew (bodies recovered)

José Salvador Alvarenga (body recovered)

Carol Rymer Davis and Richard Abruzzo (bodies recovered)

Jesús Vidaña (rescued)

Robert Maxwell (body recovered)

Rose-Noëlle crew (rescued)

Deborah Scaling Kiley (rescued)

Steven Callahan (rescued)

Ambrogio Fogar (rescued)

Maurice and Maralyn Bailey (rescued)

Dougal Robertson (rescued)

etc. Abandonee (talk) 09:06, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, though some of those who are no longer lost appear in a "solved" cases section, which I think has some merit, but still needs considerable cleanup. Many situations don't qualify as mysterious (war-related attacks where what took place is obvious, for example) and others that might qualify need the vital context of what could make them seem more "mysterious" or notable to be added under the "Circumstances" column. Crisisthevillain (talk) 18:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

These kinds of lists require constant cleanup to keep in-line with list criteria. If no one is doing the cleanup work, eventually someone will AfD the entire list for evident lack of interest to maintain a list of this type. -- GreenC 18:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Deleted a bunch: Special:Diff/1163405989/1163409366 -- GreenC 18:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Missing people at SeaWorld

what happened to them 2607:FB91:AA:E252:AC39:8277:7FFC:7850 (talk) 07:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Titan Submersible

Would the people on the Titan Submersible really be a "mysterious" disapearance. Sure, we're not going to find a body but we know exactly what happened to them. Source VoidpunkXenon (talk) 01:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)