Talk:List of ship losses during the Russo-Ukrainian War

Ships lost or ships damaged

I am not sure what the right title should be, but at the moment it is "losses", yet includes ships which have not been lost - indeed at present most entries report damage or capture only. Although "ships damaged or lost..." may seem lengthy, it might be the best available. Pinging the active editors for their views - Rinbro,DividedFrame,Mr.User200,Llammakey,Rusty4321,Nedrutland,Ser Amantio di Nicolao,Smeagol 17,Super Dromaeosaurus,Arjayay. Davidships (talk) 20:02, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Losses its the most suitable term, because it consider ships sunk, scrapped, missing and captured only miss damage criteria.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Vasily Bykov

With wishful thinking, uncertainty, propaganda and subterfuge all having a field day, deleting this balanced entry is premature. It needs more than one reliable 3rd party analysis to justify deletion (note that even that ref ends with some level of uncertainty: "apparent reappearance"). Davidships (talk) 12:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting. Justification is needed for inclusion, not for deletion. If info is doubtful, we leave it out. The article "Russian patrol boat Vasily Bykov" (as of time of writing) is a balanced article. But, including the ship in this article as a loss, when it is uncertain that it is lost, is not justified. Nurg (talk) 22:45, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion.

After reviewing all the entries of ship lost/sunk etc. I think the best criteria for inclusion could be this:
1) Official release by the state operator regarding its own losses.
2) Images, OSINT or from pictures of the ship wreck verified or commented by Reliable Sources
3) Reports made by third parties commenting of covering ships captured or sunk.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

• We should also think about the inclusion of damaged ships (vs actual loss). I feel like for military vessels it would be pretty impossible and impractical to keep track of all the damages sustained. Vasily Bykov and Admiral Essen could very well be damaged to some degree but still seaworthy. Out of 18 entries for military vessels, 3 of them are related to damages only. However for civilian vessels 11 out of 17 entries are related to damage only and removing them will take away a lot of information. Rinbro (talk) 18:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
• I reviewed the current entries for military vessels per your requirements, to sustain further discussions:

Entry	Purported Status	1. Admission by operator	2. RS verified/comments	3. Third party coverage
Saratov	"Destroyed"	✘ No official comment per CNN	? BBC Article, but quoting Ukranian source	✔ Navy Lookout analysis
Moskva	Sunk	✔ Per Russian Defense Ministry	NA	NA
Eight vesseles	"Destroyed"	✘	? Interfax, but repeating Russian Defense Ministry claims	✘
Hetman Sahaidachny	Scuttled	✔ Per Minister of Defence	NA	NA
Sloviansk	Sunk	✔ Reported "with reference to the Navy", also confirmed by the mayor of Yuzhny	NA	NA
Vyshhorod	Captured	✘	? BBC reported Zvezda claims of vessel being abandoned	✘ Cited source did not specific Vyshhorod, only "two Gyurza-M-class artillery boats", further it was quoting RT and did not verify it
Akkerman	Captured	✘	? BBC reported Zvezda claims of vessel being abandoned	? Cited source shows picture of captured Akkerman from RT, though did not verify its tenacity
Korets	Captured	✘	? BBC reported Zvezda claims of vessel being abandoned	✘ Not in cited source
Yuri Olefirenko	Captured	✘	✘ I cannot locate any RS other than blog posts repeating RT claims	✘ Not in first cited source; Second cited source is a blog
P 262	Captured	✘	✘ I cannot locate any RS other than blog posts repeating RT claims	✘ Not in cited source
Donbas	Damaged	✘	✔ PBS: "images... appear to show [the ship] burning" Suggest changing to this source instead of the currently cited Russian technology site	✘
Kremenchuk	Captured	✘	✔ Source appears to be reliable	✘

Rinbro (talk) 19:53, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

On Vyshhorod & Akkerman the page clearly says Ukrainian Gyurza-M-class artillery boat Akkerman (Picture source: MSGazdiev, RT) in the caption of the first image. That means that least one of the two is verified.Mr.User200 (talk) 22:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

What about this? 1.Mr.User200 (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

It cites "the oryxspioenkop Blog" which I believe is this post. The blog is ran by Stijn Mitzer who has been cited by The Independent, Military Times and the Economist and Forbes. It seems to fit Wikipedia's policy of "Acceptable use of self-published works" - "The author is an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications, except for exceptional claims." What do you think? Rinbro (talk) 22:23, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I dont trust the Oryx, but found one more source, BBC. Could you update your wikitable, just to see how it looks??.Mr.User200 (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

How does it look now? For those with tenacious RS (orange), we could possibly include them prefixed with "Ukrainian/Russian sources say..."? Rinbro (talk) 22:40, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I´m off today what about 24 hours lapse to look for more sources in other languages. I think Russian, Ukrainian and French sites could provide a deeper insight about losses.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Good idea and more time for other edits to join the discussion. Rinbro (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Today the Ukrainian MOD made a release at it website, in Ukrainian, three gunboats are acknowledged as lost by capture(Akkerman,Vishgorod and Kremenchuk), the same with Korets, and Donbas command ship destroyed. Your wikitable will look green now.Mr.User200 (talk) 03:10, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a link? I can't find the release. Rinbro (talk) 03:29, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Already at the site.Mr.User200 (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

The website Militarnyi is a non-governmental organization (according to their about page) and the news there "was reported by the Militarnyi based on photographs distributed online." So not official confirmation sadly. Rinbro (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Still a thrid party source, could you update your wikitable?Mr.User200 (talk) 01:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

To the record Im errasing all claims that are not backed with videos or images.Mr.User200 (talk) 01:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Біля порту Бердянська ЗСУ знищили російський десантний корабель «Саратов».jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:52, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Vasily Bekh

Add it to the list. Was sunk yesterday Titsor8976 (talk) 10:17, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Original Research

Putitonmap, please could you explain this revert? This edit summary is simply a justification for Original Research. See WP:OR. Mr.User200 (talk) 13:53, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Same thing with the use of Russian forums as a Reliable Source.Mr.User200 (talk) 17:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I dispute that this violates WP:OR. The sources clearly state the boats were deployed east of the Kerch Strait. Unlike the smaller boats explicitly mentioned in other sources as being able to traverse internal waterways (I can link these for you if you want), these are of a much higher displacement and so would have to cross the Kerch Strait to get from the Sea of Azov to Ukrainian-controlled territory. This is easily, if not trivially, verifiable, so does not violate WP:OR. Every time larger military boats have deployed past the Kerch Strait since the Kerch Strait incident, there has been reporting in the press. Is it possible they snuck under the bridge, or their redeployment was allowed by Russia but went unmentioned? In theory - and this is why I qualify the entry with "most likely." I can find sources referring to how heavily patrolled the Kerch Strait is if you wish and/or link to the Kerch Strait incident article. If you're not comfortable with this designation, I think it'd be appropriate to add a new category: large Ukrainian vessels deployed east of the Kerch Strait which are unaccounted for.

With respect to the forums.airbase.ru entries - this is a board with a fair number of people who've studied the Soviet, Ukrainian and Russian fleets quite extensively. They are cited by mainstream sources in Russia such as RT, and reliable sources such as russianships.info. Given this their expertise, I believe they are acceptable under WP:SPS, although not with reference to living people. You will note that I have only cited them where they have provided photographs, and in at least one case, one of these images is drawn from a more mainstream source (as indicated by the star watermark) - likely a TV broadcast, although one I haven't yet found. As I mentioned in my last edit, I am happy to categorise these separately or add notes acknowledging the weaker quality of their sources.

In both cases, I think the information you've deleted adds value to the article - and the main reason it hasn't been found elsewhere is because stories about smaller and auxiliary vessels get lost very quickly in the mainstream press, especially considering the informational control Russia seeks to exert in occupied areas. You'll note the visualrian.ru sources only persist because of archiving; the site has effectively been purged since the annexation. I'm more than happy to qualify its inclusion with "health warnings" about weaker sources, but I think it'd be a shame to completely overlook these accounts even though they clear the minimum bar. -- PutItOnAMap (talk) 18:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

August 2023

I think these are missing:

• On 22 August Russian defence ministry claimed one of its fighter jets destroyed a Ukrainian reconnaissance boat sailing near Russian gas production facilities along the Black Sea.

• In August 2023 at least two, and up to six, ferries were sunk as block ships in the Kerch Strait to protect the Crimean Bridge from Ukrainian seaborn drone attacks.

References

September 2023

another report of sunk boat : https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12477689/Moment-Russian-landing-boat-destroyed-drone-Ukraines-kamikaze-weapons.html --Andrez1973 (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

November 2023

Missing ship in the article. Can this be added please at the bottom of this section:

• Askold — On 4 November 2023, Ukrainian forces strike Zalyv Shipbuilding yard in the Russian-occupied Kerch, Crimea, with cruise missiles, damaging this relatively new Russian cruise missile carrying corvette. On 6 November 2023 president Zelensky stated that the ship was destroyed.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.167.177.252 (talk) 03:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@114.167.177.252: added, thanks 🙏😉 ~ Johnfreez (talk) 21:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Novocherkassk

Novocherkassk was sunk today. --Andrez1973 (talk) 10:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

References

Losses section numbering is inconsistent (Edit Request)

Please add a comma in the thousand position in the losses summary for the numbers: (1791 t) to (1,791 t) (>9449 t) to (>9,449 t) (>6045 t) to (>6,045 t) (1200 t) to (1,200 t) (7473 t) to (7,473 t) (>5608.5 t) to (>5,608.5 t)

According to MOS:DIGITS: "Numbers with exactly four digits left of the decimal point may optionally be grouped (either 1,250 or 1250), consistently within any given article."

Currently it is inconsistent, and having a thousands comma seems standard.

Speederzzz (talk) 10:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The 4 boats lost during the Battle of the Tendra Spit

Where will the 4 Ukrainian boats lost during the Battle of the Tendra Spit be included? Salfanto (talk) 14:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

No too minor. Those were small boats untold numbers have been lost.Mr.User200 (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Sadly that is true has we dont know their tonnage but maybe put a note about it in the summary? Salfanto (talk) 16:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Summary update

The summary chart is in need of an update. Muliple ships on both sides have been lost since it was last updated Salfanto (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Use of Unreliable sources, Twitter and claims.

Please read the note at the article, regarding adding unproven and claimed losses. There are many claims that turned out rebutted as a small section in the article says. The use of Unreliabke sources like Newsweek (WP:NEWSWEEK) and random twitter accounts (WP:TWITTER) are not RS per se so we will exclude them. Mr.User200 (talk) 02:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 April 2024

Polnocny-class landing shipRussia’s Defense Ministry said on 31 May 2023 that the ship had been destroyed two days prior. The Ukrainian Navy told reporters that they refuse to comment on any Russian claims and that they generally do not talk about any such losses in public.(source:https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-it-destroys-ukraines-last-warship-2023-05-31/) HistoryTuan (talk) 21:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:04, 25 April 2024 (UTC)