Talk:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing/Archive 1


Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk23:39, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Created by Serial Number 54129 (talk). Self-nominated at 17:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC).Reply

    •   Article is new enough, very newsworthy event and hence well-sourced, no copyvios (Earwig reports a false positive on the Johnson quotation), QPQ done. However, without a source saying the taxi driver is comfortable to talk about his ear, I'm concerned the hook may not fit the spirit of "Consider very carefully whether the hook puts undue emphasis on a negative aspect of a living individual. Err on the side of caution, and when in doubt, suggest an ALT hook." Could we go with something else? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 18:41, 16 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
      • He's a scouser. He'll fucking love it, they'll be feting him in the pubs and clubs of New Brighton as we speak. The point here is to get this lesser-known heroic guy the DYK, not focus on the scuzzball that started it, you know. I mean, something like Did you know that a bomb has just gone off outside a Liverpool hospital is so anodyne it defeats the object of DYK. People want to hear about this guy, not the perp or the police. By the way, as the philosopher Milton Jones once asked on a connected subject, "If an Earl gets an OBE, does he become an Earlobe?"  :) ——Serial 20:03, 16 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • I don't think 'ear sewn back on' is well enough supported by the sources to lead with it, it's basically attributed to 'a man' on Facebook, in fact I'm not sure it should be in the article. Nor do I think even if it is verified, that this is anything like the most important part of the event. JeffUK (talk) 01:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • I'm suggesting this ALT3, to focus on something positive instead of dwelling on horrors, and to be more "hooky" -- it makes you want to read the article to know what he did to be commended.

ALT3 to T:DYK/P3

References

  1. ^ "Terrorist incident declared after bomb detonated outside Liverpool hospital". Independent. 15 November 2021.
  2. ^ "Liverpool Women's Hospital explosion: Man killed named as Emad Al Swealmeen". BBC News. 15 November 2021.
  3. ^ Mendick, Robert; Evans, Martin; Davies, Gareth (15 November 2021). "Liverpool bomber was of Middle Eastern background and not known to MI5 - latest updates". The Telegraph. (subscription required)
  4. ^ "Liverpool hospital taxi explosion: what we know so far". The Guardian. 15 November 2021. Retrieved 15 November 2021.
  5. ^ "Threat level raised after Liverpool taxi bomb - follow updates live". Independent. 15 November 2021.
  6. ^ Dearden, Lizzie (15 November 2021). "Liverpool explosion: Police declare terrorist incident and say passenger 'built bomb detonated in taxi'". The Independent.

Ignition

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The counter-terrorism policing north "Following discussions with Ordinance Disposal Officers, we are able to confirm that this is being treated as the ignition of an explosive device." https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/police-confirm-know-identity-passenger-22168511 the use of ignition rather than detonation, means that this really wasn't an explosion. See Detonation. --Kitchen Knife (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, seasoned observers know that this was the dets acting as an ignition, rather than the IED itself (note the cars parked only a few feet away were untouched; if it had been the bomb itself they would have been flattened). However, User:JeffUK argues ootherwise :p ——Serial 19:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
With Liverpool Echo being a regional paper, should we perhaps wait until more reliable sources elaborate on this? Solipsism 101 (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
No, it's a direct quote from Russ Jackson, head of Counter Terrorism Policing North West. I imagine that's a chap who people avoid misquoting unnecessarily. ——Serial 19:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Full statement https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/2021/november/statement-from-assistant-chief-constable-russ-jackson-counter-terrorism-north-west/?__cf_chl_captcha_tk__=xfWjUG_l0yB3B2zACwc6SNrpvPiYHBXgI115EfYKSZg-1636990867-0-gaNycGzNCKU --Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
I meant elaboration of the distinction between distinction detonation and ignition, and what it means for this case. (Really my point was confusing as the Echo doesn't even go into the distinction, so apologies.) Solipsism 101 (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Not only do they not go into it they keep on saying explosion and blast, I'd pointed this out to them last night.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Was the explosion much smaller than intended because of the same issue as in the Parsons Green train bombing? Jim Michael (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
You don't have to be that seasoned. I spotted it with the first pictures but apparently in some quarters saying no destination is the same as saying no bomb.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

What change are you proposing to the article based on this? JeffUK (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Removal of the word explosion/blast throughout with an explanation of what did happen.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Explosion is supported by all of the sources. What do you mean "What did happen", what sources say anything happened other than an explosion? It may have not been a 'detonation' but that doesn't preclude an explosion. (Detonation is a sub-set of explosion, gas can explode, balloons can explode, etc. I agree not to use 'Detonation' in the article JeffUK (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Yes, many RS describe the attack using the word explosion. It may have been a much lesser explosion than intended, but the video of it clearly shows an explosion followed seconds later by a fire. Jim Michael (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Well if you want to rate sensationalist Jornous rather than Explosive Ordnance Disposal Office. Fine "Following discussions with Ordinance Disposal Officers, we are able to confirm that this is being treated as the ignition of an explosive device.". --Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Sensationalist journos like Assistant Chief Constable Russ Jackson? "As the taxi approached the drop off point at the hospital, an explosion occurred from within car, " [1]JeffUK (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Still not up to the level of an EOD officer.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Debris from the car was ejected in different directions. How is that not an explosion? Jim Michael (talk) 20:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/15/uk/liverpool-hospital-car-explosion-monday-gbr-intl/index.html Looks awfully explodey to my 'unseasoned' eyes. The only source I can find saying the device did not explode is the Daily Mail, which 1. is the Daily Mail, and 2. in the same article it says that it did explode, and calls it an explosion... JeffUK (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

The Sun reports

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The non-reliable source The Sun name the cabbie and detail what is alleged to have happened, including the perpetrator requesting to go to a cathedral where Remembrance Sunday events were being held.[2] Adding it here until we get a source we can use. Solipsism 101 (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Got it through The Telegraph. Solipsism 101 (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Sun has another article they keep updating and changing. It contains a lot of new info (came to the UK no later than 2014 when charged with knife offense). Information about him being born to an Iraqi woman in Jordan and growing up in Dubai has disappeared from the latest version of the article. 2604:3D08:7386:200:392A:5DBD:347E:ED28 (talk) 06:00, 16 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Which is why we never use The Sun as a source. WWGB (talk) 06:19, 16 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
I quoted it as a starting point to find the contained information quoted in more reliable sources.2604:3D08:7386:200:392A:5DBD:347E:ED28 (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)Reply