Talk:Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing/Archive 1

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

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• ... that a Liverpool taxi driver had to have his ear sewn back on after being caught in the blast of his passenger's improvised explosive device, in which the passenger was killed? Source: (ear), (everything else)
  • ALT1: ... that a Liverpool taxi driver had to have his ear sewn back on after being caught in the blast of his passenger's IED in the Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing, while his passenger was killed? Source: Ditto.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/1967 Fairmont State Falcons football team

Created by Serial Number 54129 (talk). Self-nominated at 17:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC).

• • Article is new enough, very newsworthy event and hence well-sourced, no copyvios (Earwig reports a false positive on the Johnson quotation), QPQ done. However, without a source saying the taxi driver is comfortable to talk about his ear, I'm concerned the hook may not fit the spirit of "Consider very carefully whether the hook puts undue emphasis on a negative aspect of a living individual. Err on the side of caution, and when in doubt, suggest an ALT hook." Could we go with something else? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:41, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
    • He's a scouser. He'll fucking love it, they'll be feting him in the pubs and clubs of New Brighton as we speak. The point here is to get this lesser-known heroic guy the DYK, not focus on the scuzzball that started it, you know. I mean, something like Did you know that a bomb has just gone off outside a Liverpool hospital is so anodyne it defeats the object of DYK. People want to hear about this guy, not the perp or the police. By the way, as the philosopher Milton Jones once asked on a connected subject, "If an Earl gets an OBE, does he become an Earlobe?"  :) ——Serial 20:03, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
      • How about ALT2 : ... that the taxi driver injured in the Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing was commended by the Mayor of Liverpool and the Prime Minister for his bravery? ("Prime Minister Boris Johnson has praised Mr Perry's actions. .... The city's mayor Joanne Anderson said the taxi driver's "heroic efforts" averted what could have been an "awful disaster" on Remembrance Sunday." [1]) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
      • He doesn't need Johnson's validation? And I refuse to be a party to getting that wanker on the front page more than he already has to be. What about him (the taxi driver) locking the bloke in the car before scaparing? (PS, I respect your views: all of them.) ——Serial 20:43, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
        • I think that should work, if you can think of something hooky enough. (As for Johnson, if you can find enough good sources to write 1,500 prose-bytes about Ben Comeau we can do something with this on the main page). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:51, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
          • From a BLP perspective, I'd like to see us steer well clear of the Mayor's remarks (allegations?). They may be right, or wrong, and any heroic actions may be justified and deliberate or not, but these remarks are based on unconfirmed information and definitely serious enough for us to not flaunt them. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't think 'ear sewn back on' is well enough supported by the sources to lead with it, it's basically attributed to 'a man' on Facebook, in fact I'm not sure it should be in the article. Nor do I think even if it is verified, that this is anything like the most important part of the event. JeffUK (talk) 01:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm just going to submit for the record that if you think our role at DYK is to highlight the main points of events and people, that we have failed each other as performer and audience in a spectacular manner. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 06:54, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm suggesting this ALT3, to focus on something positive instead of dwelling on horrors, and to be more "hooky" -- it makes you want to read the article to know what he did to be commended.
    • ALT3 ... that the taxi driver in the Liverpool Women's Hospital bombing was later commended for "incredible presence of mind and bravery"? Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 20:28, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
      • Pinging reviewer Ritchie333 to check ALT3. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
        • New reviewer needed to check ALT3, since Ritchie333 doesn't seem to be available. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:56, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
          • It's not that interesting but since it also gives no context to the taxi driver, it could hook people in. I don't know how he was "commendably brave" (opening line literally says he ran away) but the Response sources do say that and so did the PM (both presumably trying to make a positive story), we can let other people be disappointed, too. I would twistily suggest combining the incident part and current hook to say "...that after he ran away from the LWH bombing, a taxi driver was commended as a hero", which is even more WTF, but that kind of paints the driver negatively when he doesn't seem to have claimed the title himself. Kingsif (talk) 04:39, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
            • Kingsif Serial Number 54129 There is a clarification needed tag in the article. SL93 (talk) 02:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
              • I have removed the information and the tag (I'm not sure the tag was necessary in the first place, to be honest). Sdrqaz (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

ALT3 to T:DYK/P3

References

Ignition

The counter-terrorism policing north "Following discussions with Ordinance Disposal Officers, we are able to confirm that this is being treated as the ignition of an explosive device." https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/police-confirm-know-identity-passenger-22168511 the use of ignition rather than detonation, means that this really wasn't an explosion. See Detonation. --Kitchen Knife (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, seasoned observers know that this was the dets acting as an ignition, rather than the IED itself (note the cars parked only a few feet away were untouched; if it had been the bomb itself they would have been flattened). However, User:JeffUK argues ootherwise :p ——Serial 19:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

With Liverpool Echo being a regional paper, should we perhaps wait until more reliable sources elaborate on this? Solipsism 101 (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

No, it's a direct quote from Russ Jackson, head of Counter Terrorism Policing North West. I imagine that's a chap who people avoid misquoting unnecessarily. ——Serial 19:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Full statement https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/2021/november/statement-from-assistant-chief-constable-russ-jackson-counter-terrorism-north-west/?__cf_chl_captcha_tk__=xfWjUG_l0yB3B2zACwc6SNrpvPiYHBXgI115EfYKSZg-1636990867-0-gaNycGzNCKU --Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I meant elaboration of the distinction between distinction detonation and ignition, and what it means for this case. (Really my point was confusing as the Echo doesn't even go into the distinction, so apologies.) Solipsism 101 (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Not only do they not go into it they keep on saying explosion and blast, I'd pointed this out to them last night.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Was the explosion much smaller than intended because of the same issue as in the Parsons Green train bombing? Jim Michael (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

You don't have to be that seasoned. I spotted it with the first pictures but apparently in some quarters saying no destination is the same as saying no bomb.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

What change are you proposing to the article based on this? JeffUK (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Removal of the word explosion/blast throughout with an explanation of what did happen.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Explosion is supported by all of the sources. What do you mean "What did happen", what sources say anything happened other than an explosion? It may have not been a 'detonation' but that doesn't preclude an explosion. (Detonation is a sub-set of explosion, gas can explode, balloons can explode, etc. I agree not to use 'Detonation' in the article JeffUK (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, many RS describe the attack using the word explosion. It may have been a much lesser explosion than intended, but the video of it clearly shows an explosion followed seconds later by a fire. Jim Michael (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Well if you want to rate sensationalist Jornous rather than Explosive Ordnance Disposal Office. Fine "Following discussions with Ordinance Disposal Officers, we are able to confirm that this is being treated as the ignition of an explosive device.". --Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Sensationalist journos like Assistant Chief Constable Russ Jackson? "As the taxi approached the drop off point at the hospital, an explosion occurred from within car, " JeffUK (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Still not up to the level of an EOD officer.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Debris from the car was ejected in different directions. How is that not an explosion? Jim Michael (talk) 20:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/15/uk/liverpool-hospital-car-explosion-monday-gbr-intl/index.html Looks awfully explodey to my 'unseasoned' eyes. The only source I can find saying the device did not explode is the Daily Mail, which 1. is the Daily Mail, and 2. in the same article it says that it did explode, and calls it an explosion... JeffUK (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

The Sun reports

The non-reliable source The Sun name the cabbie and detail what is alleged to have happened, including the perpetrator requesting to go to a cathedral where Remembrance Sunday events were being held.[2] Adding it here until we get a source we can use. Solipsism 101 (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Got it through The Telegraph. Solipsism 101 (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Sun has another article they keep updating and changing. It contains a lot of new info (came to the UK no later than 2014 when charged with knife offense). Information about him being born to an Iraqi woman in Jordan and growing up in Dubai has disappeared from the latest version of the article. 2604:3D08:7386:200:392A:5DBD:347E:ED28 (talk) 06:00, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Which is why we never use The Sun as a source. WWGB (talk) 06:19, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

I quoted it as a starting point to find the contained information quoted in more reliable sources.2604:3D08:7386:200:392A:5DBD:347E:ED28 (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)