Talk:Madness (1994 film)

Madness release date

So Curti's book specifically states that the films are listed by the Italian release year. He has Madness as being released in 1992. Where does the other book specifically state? Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:19, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

The Italian book reviews each film in chronological order, and it has Madness listed as 1994, after "Dangerous Attraction". Also if you search on google the words "Madness Mattei 1994", tons of reviews come up all listing the film as 1994. (Imdb has 1994 as well, although I hesitate to mention them at this point.)68.129.15.71 (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand your frustration. I don't think IMDb is something to ignore, but if you look at "Release dates" section for IMDb for this title, it doesn't have any release dates at all. Anywhere! Even other sources I like to visit such as the Archivo del Italian cinema site does not have this film in their database. So where does this 1994 come from? I don't know, but the Curti book is the only source I've seen that states its release date. I'm honestly a bit conflicted, but I'd rather go by the published source. Roberto Curti has pulled information from Italian archives to find really detailed information on release dates and gross of Italian films. (for an example of how much info he can get, check out the article for Caltiki – The Immortal Monster where he really tried to find the source of who directed it. He even eliminated the idea that has been published for decades that the film was an Italian-American co-production. I'm leaning towards Curti here unless you can be more specific in your book. Does it have a release date details? or is it just a listed like "Madness (1994)"? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

The book lists all of the films in release date order throughout, and it lists MADNESS (1994) as definitely coming out after DANGEROUS ATTRACTION (1993). Maybe you can't find this film so easily because it's very rarely listed as MADNESS in most sources. It's under Gli Occhi Dentro or "Eyes Without a Face".
I watched the dvd-r I have of it last night (no opening credits at all....the film just starts), and at the end credits (which were pretty extensive) it says the following: First the word MADNESS flashes across the screen, then the end credits, then it says Eyes Without A Face" copyright 1993. The Italian book states the release dates in parentheses (listing MADNESS as 1994), but the print's end titles actually states 1993 copyright. So I doubt the film even existed in 1992! It was filmed in '93, and released in '94 almost certainly. The Curti book is wrong. Also, although the print says MADNESS as the title, the copyright info says "Eyes Without a Face". So that is a very important alternate title! THat was supposed to be the name of the film, but it was changed to MADNESS at the last minute.68.129.15.71 (talk) 18:57, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

The book has an article on MADNESS, it says it was shot simultaneously with Dangerous Attraction (pg. 80). But Dangerous Attraction was released first. So both films were made in 1993, but MADNESS wasn't released until 1994. The Curti source might be right 99% of the time, but that film didn't exist in 1992, so the Curti book is wrong.68.129.15.71 (talk) 19:58, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

You don't seem to be jumping to conclusions when the film was made based on copyright. I wouldn't trust a DVD-R, is it an official release? Also, does your Italian book confirm that those dates are release dates? If so, where? premiers? general release? I'd like to make it clear. You seem to be jumping to conclusions that it was filmed in 1993 without showing any real evidence other than displaying a copyright date. As for the Eyes Without a Face titles supposed to be the name of the film, then it was "changed at last minute", was it ever released as that? If not, its just a working title. If you could expand on this by stating on what pages and what not does it say when the film was made and does it specifically state its release or does it just say "Madness (1993)"? Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:51, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

The dvd-r I have is not a blurry dupe, it's a crystal clear copy of the English-dubbed international version of the film that went out on video to English-speaking countries. I don't think it's legally available from a dvd distributor, but it's on the internet available to be downloaded. It's apparently the English-dubbed version that was released by the Italian filmmakers, it probably came out before dvd existed.68.129.15.71 (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

It looks like the original Italian title was Occhi Senza Volto (Eyes Without a Face) and it was filmed in late 1993. At some point, the film was retitled "Gli occhi dentro" (The Eyes Inside) which is the title it was released under in Italy. However, it was copyrighted in Italy as Occhi Senza Volto (Eyes Without a Face), just before the title was changed. Meanwhile, an English-dubbed international print was released on video, and it was supposed to be titled "Eyes Without a Face" (that's why the copyright notice at the end of the video says "Eyes Without A Face" copyright 1993). However, at the last second, the title "MADNESS" was slapped onto the video just before it went out. There are no opening credits at all on the English-dubbed video, just end titles. I guess people do refer to the film as MADNESS now, because that is the title on the English-dubbed video's end credits, but that change was made literally at the last minute, and MADNESS is not the title Bruno Mattei used when he made this film. He referred to it as EYES WITHOUT A FACE in interviews.68.129.15.71 (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

So two things, the source that most written material on the film mentions when discussing the film is Madness, so I'd leave that. secondly, what is the source of it being filmed in 1993? If we are going by bootlegs, I would not take them as a source at all. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

It's not a bootleg. I downloaded the English-dubbed "international version" of the film that was dubbed and made to be sold in English-speaking countries in the 90's by the Italian film company that made the film. It's the actual English-language release print of the film. I had to copy it off the internet where some one posted it, because it's not currently out on dvd, but in the 90's, this was the actual English language video the Italian film company released. It's the only English language version that exists.68.129.15.71 (talk) 01:31, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, so unless you got some sort of legal download (which from you quotes of "was dubbed and made to be sold in English-speaking countries in the 90's" and you had copied "it off the internet where some one posted it", then we can't really go by this content. That's what a bootleg is! Regardless, copyright information aside, that date only states when it was copywritten, not its release or when it was made. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I just noticed under "Production" you wrote the following line apparently taken from the Curti book: "Madness was shot with the same film crew who had previously shot Mattei's erotic thriller Dangerous Attraction." So you actually stated yourself that Madness was made after Dangerous Attraction (1993).68.129.15.71 (talk) 18:58, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not doubting that, I'm doubting that your books years (1993) is the actual release date for Dangerous Attraction. Can you confirm? A simple yes or no will do. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Hey @68.129.15.71:. Instead of just googling sources and not finding anything, try to remember the discussion we are having on a talk page, and not just removing sources and replacing them with databases or sources that do not state what you claim (see WP:STICKTOSOURCE). Please keep the discussion here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Getting back on track, I would not use the copyright date as anything to seriously take into consideration after reading up on the 1980s American film Alligator. According to the American Film Institute, that film was shown in Los Angeles in November of 1980, but did not file for copyright until January of 1981. (Source). Just some more things to consider. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Catching up

Hey @68.129.15.71:, I appreciate if you want to discuss when the film was released, but don't just change the year on Mattei filmography page here and hope nobody notices. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

So it's been a few years, but until Curti's later book, he specifically attaches a year to the film: 1994. It does seem the book missed out on adding this year in his previous one, so I'll be applying that here to help clarify when it was released. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)