Talk:Mahmud Pasha Angelović

1453 or 1456

This article contradics itself . One sentence claims that Veli Mahmut was appointed as the Grand Vizier in 1456 and another one claims that he was named Grand Vizier within months after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. (According to my sources the former claim is correct) I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed it. For some reason, I probably confused him with Zağanos Pasha. For the life of me I can't remember why however. I also added some more info on Mahmud's independent campaigns and his end. It strikes me however that this article should be at Mahmud Pasha Angelović, as this form is by far more common in English sources. Constantine ✍ 17:14, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree. Mahmut was his name and Pasha was his title. In old Turkish (unlike European languages) the titles always follow the proper nouns. If the proposed Mahmud Pasha Angelović is used as a article title, you see that the title would be replaced between the two proper nouns. This type of naming is neither Turkish nor European. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact remains that this is the more commonly used form of the name, used in most English-language books, even those where the Turkish form of the names is otherwise preserved intact (Finkel for instance). Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article belongs at Mahmud Pasha Angelović. The fact that "pasha" comes between the first name and the surname is not really an argument, if this name is standard scholarly usage. I also point out that all the other-language wikis use either plain "Mahmud Pasha" or "Mahmud Pasha Angelović". Constantine ✍ 10:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Why Mahmud Pasha Anđelović is a Croat?

What conclusions result that he was a Croat, except that any sources are cited? The Anđelović, Mahmud and his brother Mihailo, were Serbs with Greek descent of the Philanthropenoi family. Are there any Croatian ancestors known, that we could say that they were Croats or with Croatian descent?--Carski (talk) 22:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ottoman sources claim he was Croat and they are 100 per cent correct.

There is no certainty about his ethnicity.

He was known by the surnames and epithets Abogović, Opuković, Bosanac (Bosnian), and Hirvat (Croat).

Turkish Wikipedia references

Aşık Çelebi Tezkire'si ve Taşköprülüzâde tarihine göre aslı Hırvattır ve buna katılan modern yabancı tarihçiler de bulunmaktadır ...

According to Aşık Çelebi's Tezkire and Taşköprülüzâde's history, it is originally Croatian and there are modern foreign historians who agree with it.

- Taşköprülüzade (1852/1853), El Shakayık el-numaniyya, İstanbul (Osmanlıca)

- Miller, Barnette (1941).The Palace school of Muhammad the Conqueror. Harvard University Press. say. 7.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veli_Mahmud_Paşa

A Bosnian historian says that he is a Croat

Reference: Safvet-beg Bašagić, Znameniti Hrvati Bošnjaci i Hercegovci u turskoj carevini, Matica hrvatska, Zagreb, 1931., page. 40.

Mahmud paša Hrvat

(Veli-sveti) stoji na čelu svima vezirima, učenjacima pjesnicima iz naših krajeva. Svi suvremeni i kasniji turski historici vele, da je rodom Hrvat. Najkritičniji turski historik XVI. v. Aali veli, da je Mahmud paša označivao Kruševac (Serbia) kao rodno mjesto, ali misli da je on to kazivao, da zabaci trag, jer su za njegova vezirovanja serhatski (bosanski) velikaši s Carigradom svaki čas imali posla. pa da ga ne napastuju kao zemljaka. On je kao dječak pao u sužanjstvo nekakovu Mehmed agi, koji nije znao ni čitati ni pisati.

Kad se saznalo, da je član odlična roda, darovao ga je sultanu Muratu. a sultan svome nasljedniku prijestolja Mehmedu, kome je bio vršnjak po godinama i jednak po uzrastu. S njim je zajedno učio i postigao visoku naobrazbu. Kad je mladi carević pošao u Magneziju za namjesnika, poveo ga je sa sobom kao pečatnika (muhurdara), a kad je 855. (1451.) zasjeo na prijestolje osmanlijskih careva, imenovao ga je beglerbegom od Rumelije. Iza osvojenja Carigrada g. 857. (1453.) postao je veliki vezir. Spletkama Rum Mehmed paše bude svrgnut 872. (1467.) i imenovan kapetan pašom. G. 877. (1472) opet bude imenovan velikim vezirom ali dvorska klika, koja bješe preotela mah, brzo ga potisnu u kraj i prigodom smrti carevića Mustafe uhvati zgodu i obijedi ga kod sentimentalnog sultana kao začetnika smrti Mustafine. Strpan u Jedi kule prema jednoj vijesti sam je učinio samoubijstvo prerezavši žile na lijevoj ruci, a prema drugim vijestima pogubljen je od ruke dželata 3. rebija II. 879. (18. kolovoza 1474.). Zakopan je kod njegove džamije u posebnom turbetu.

Ovdje se ne možemo upuštati ni u kratak prikaz života ovoga velikog Hrvata, jer bi se o njemu kao državniku, zakonodavcu. vojskovodi, piesniku i meceni književniku dalo napisati više nego i o jednom veziru u turskoj povjesnici. Cijeli niz učenih i zabavnih djela posvećeno je njegovu imenu. Osim toga bi se mogla sakupiti oveća zbirka slavospieva njemu u čast. Još u XI. vijeku po Hidžri savijen je cijeli ciklus legenda oko njegove glave i prišiven mu uz ime počasni naslov veli« (svetac), koji se daje samo velikim šehovima. Biograf pjesnika Sehi kaže da iz njegova turbeta narod nosi zemlju kao lijek od groznice. Iza njega je ostao cijeli divan pjesama pod pjesničkim imenom Adni (Edenski). Sagradio je džamije medrese u Carigradu. Sofiji i Haskovu. Munedzin-basi: III. 400.; Hadže-zade: I. 551-553.: Aali: IV. 150, fol.: Ašik paša: 150. 191.: Medždi: 196.: Kinali-zade: s. v. ain.: Bašagić: 9. 19. Kam. al. VI. 4223. 198.251.52.155 (talk) 10:32, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

?

"Mahmud Pasha Angelović" -Llc only 1 hit Takabeg (talk) 11:58, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for over a week. Jenks24 (talk) 11:26, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

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Mahmud Pasha, Grand Vizier → Mahmud Pasha – Primary Topic is this article.--Zoupan 03:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved majority after a month. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

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Mahmud Pasha → Mahmud Pasha Angelovic – This Mahmud Pasha is not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC because there are two more Grand Viziers by the same name (Mahmud Nedim Pasha and Mahmud Shevket Pasha) and an admiral, among others, see some of them listed in Mahmud Pasha (disambiguation). "Mahmud Pasha Angelovic" yields 30-odd results in Google Books, and 25 results in Google Scholar while Mahmud Shevket Pasha alone yields similar number of results in Google Books and 37 results in Google Scholar. According to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term", a criteria which Mahmud Pasha Angelovic fail to fulfill. Therefore I suggest renaming the article. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 07:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 03:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC) Filanca (talk) 09:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Weak support - he seems to have strongest claim to primary, but disamb won't hurt. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• I concur that this person isn't the primary topic - in the top 10 gbooks search results there are several that don't discuss him. However, the disambiguation marker seems a bit off. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Mahmud+Pasha%22+1474&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 says around 1,300 results; http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Mahmud+Pasha%22+Angelovic+1474&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 gives only around 177 results. But when I click through to the last page on each search, the ratio goes to 21 vs. 51. Looking for this 'Angelovic' surname in this context, I found that there's ambiguity whether it was actually "Anđelović", "Abogović" or "Bogojević". Some other disambiguation marker should be used, rather than conjecture. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support Mahmud Pasha Angelović. I get 61 genuine gbooks hits for the this title and either 1 or 0 for Joy's, looks to me like "Mahmud Pasha Angelović" is the clear common name. Of the eight sources I checked through gbooks, six used the diacritic and this was a previous title of the article. Jenks24 (talk) 12:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Relisting comment. Clear enough consensus that this guy isn't the primary topic, but I'm not seeing a consensus on how this article should be disambiguated. Jenks24 (talk) 07:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Misquoting source

Stavrides quite explicitly explains that Mahmud Pasha was not a Croat in any sense other than political -- using the South Slavic ambiguity in defining Serbs and Croats for personal diplomatic purposes. He lists quite in detail reasons why the subject was a Serb-Greek. Why is the preposterous and insane idea of Mahmud Pasha's quasi-croatness being pushed forth by misquoting sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.41.252.228 (talk) 21:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this should have been edited long time ago. Done.--Zoupan 16:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Missing diacritic

The best sources elaborating on him use "ć". The common name is Mahmud Pasha Angelović. This was neglected in the previous move request, although stated. This was the article name in 2011.--Zoupan 20:58, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

• Franz Babinger (1992). Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time. Princeton University Press. pp. 115–. ISBN 0-691-01078-1. Angelović
• Théoharis Stavrides (2001). The Sultan of Vezirs: The Life and Times of the Ottoman Grand Vezir Mahmud Pasha Angelović (1453-1474). BRILL. ISBN 90-04-12106-4. Angelović
• Theodōros Spandouginos; Donald M. Nicol (24 July 1997). Theodore Spandounes: On the Origins of the Ottoman Emperors. Cambridge University Press. pp. 93–. ISBN 978-0-521-58510-1. Angelović
• H. Erdem Cipa; Emine Fetvaci (6 June 2013). Writing History at the Ottoman Court: Editing the Past, Fashioning the Future. Indiana University Press. pp. 68–. ISBN 0-253-00874-3. Angelović

Greek or Serbian?

If he is of the Angelos family, then he is an ethnic Greek. Just because he was born in the Serbian Despotate and family members were part of the Serbian elite does not make him an ethnic Serb. Angelovic is just a Slavicisation of the Greek name. 198.251.52.155 (talk) 09:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)