Talk:Maldivians

Move to Dhivehin

From the books available, and the websites based on the culture of the Maldives, it is clear the majority of these people, who live in the Maldives, refer to themselves as "Dhivehin", as opposed to Mahl. I propose moving the article to "Dhivehin". Maurice45 (talk) 20:49, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

when the word Dhivehin is used, it leads to certain confusion, because Dhivehin may also mean Maldivians, so the non-Maldivian Dhivehin or the non-Maldivian Mahls are excluded in the term. Manikfan (talk) 09:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

When the term Dhivehin is used Dhivehin is the Maldivian plural of Dhivesse'. Dhivesse' means "a Maldivian" or "a Mahl". Dhivehin means "Maldivians" or "Mahls". So when the term is used it creates some misunderstanding. But when the term "Mahls" or "Mahl people" is used, no body will be confused. eg: Neither All Sri Lankans are Tamils nor all Tamils are Sri Lankans. It is a matter similler to this. So we can't use to describe the term Dhivehin to describe this ethnic group, since Dhivehin also means Maldivians. Deviathan (talk) 12:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Dhivehi people

Dhivehi people is the term which has to be used here. It is the correct ethnic term which have already been decided and is preferred by anthropologists and researchers on this particular field of study. When we look at history even the term used to refer to the people of this ethnicity is very clear. Lets go back to a Roman record of the 6th century. It states that Dhivis (Dhivehis) and Serendivis (Sinhalese people) were competing with each other in sending emissaries to the Roman Emperor Julian. From this it is clear that the people were called Dhivehis during those days too. And lets look at what Pyrard said in the 17th Century: "This Kingdom is called in their language Male'-rague', 'Kingdom of Male', other peoples of India call 'Male'-Divar'. People are called 'Diues' (Dhivehi)....) From many other accounts we could see the people defined as Dhivehi or similar terms by foreigners. So this ethnic term of historical significance can't be changed in the 21st century and doing so is unacceptable.

Inventing the name for an article or such a subject while there is a common name for the subject or a much popular term among sources from people of the particular field of study is against Wikipedia guidelines. From the reliable sources available the name we can find is Dhivehi people. The name for this ethnic group has already been decided. So we can't invent names and doing so is against the rules. The only point on the side of not using Dhivehi people some editors over here suggest is the Dhivehi Radheef meaning. But when we look at the Radheef meaning there is no way the word can not be used. (See the details on the Radheef section below)

@Deviathan: The term "Dhivehin" Maldivian people use to refer to themselves is rather in a cultural sense. It can be used in a national sense too. Because all Maldivians are of the same ethnicity. But it's not used nationally as a Demonym by Maldivians in describing there nationality as an internationally accepted term on the subject. While speaking in their language they identify themselves as Dhivehin the same as Bengalis, Malayalis or any other group. Usage of Dhivehin by Maldivians doesn't mean that they are using it as a political identity. They qualify to use. But they do not. There is no contradiction in case even if used. (See more details on the Demonym-culture/linguistics section below). Leone (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Why Dhivehi people has to be used

The ethnic group is never referred as Mahl people, but Dhivehi people by almost all anthropologists and researches who conducted thorough studies on the subject. Of those known so far not even a single case found where "Mahl people" used. Already the term "Dhivehi people" for the ethnic group has been decided and is being used by anthropologists and researchers across the world. It is already in use and it is the word which have been used from the past centuries. There are vast number of books available in the subject according to researches by not only one, but many researchers and anthropologists. While there are so many sources available labeling this ethnic group with a new name, inventing a new name and replacing the term preferred by the researchers on this field of study is against the rules of Wikipedia. Moreover, the common usage of the term has to be preferred according to Wikipedia guidelines in case such a clash occurs. The vast number of sources available proves that Dhivehi people is the most correct way and the common usage. Thus the term Dhivehi people has to be used here as it is the most correct, most reliable as well as the most commonly used name for the subject. Refer the books:

• Maloney, Clarence. People of the Maldive Islands. Orient Longman. Delhi 1980
• THE MALDIVE ISLANDERS - A STUDY OF THE POPULAR CULTURE OF AN ANCIENT OCEAN KINGDOM -By Xavier Romero-Frias
• Encyclopaedia of the world Muslims: tribes, castes and communities, Volume 1 - By: Nagendra Kr Singh, Abdul Mabud Khan
• Muslim peoples: a world ethnographic survey, Volume 1 - By: Richard V. Weekes
• Populations of the SAARC countries: bio-cultural perspectives - By Jayanta Sarkar, G. C. Ghosh, Anthropological Survey of India
• The self possessed: deity and spirit possession in South Asian literature ... By - Frederick M. Smith
• International handbook of research on indigenous entrepreneurship: By Leo Paul Dana, Robert B. Anderson
• Encyclopedia of World Cultures: South Asia - By David Levinson - 1992
• Ethnic groups worldwide: a ready reference handbook - By David Levinson - 1998
• Journal of the Sri Lanka Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society - Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Sri Lanka Branch - 1986

♦ (Many more books available)  Leone (talk) 09:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Refer these links too:

• http://www.maldives-ethnography.com/
• http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn5/insouasi/maloney.html
• http://books.google.mv/books?id=k8PXAAAAMAAJ&q=divehi+people&dq=divehi+people&hl=en&ei=g7TKTMvFCIP5cdX6rL8O&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA

(Still many other sources available)

Radheef

Dhivehi is not used to refer to "Maldivian People" according to the Radheef. The 4 meanings of Dhivehi in the Radheef are: 1- Dhivehi language, 2- Having a touch of Dhivehi (can be cultural, linguistic or any), 3- Related to the Dhivehi language and 4- Related to the Maldivian people (can be culturally, linguistically and in such a sense). So there is no way the word Dhivehi can't be used to refer to the people of minicoy as they speak Dhivehi language, have a touch of Dhivei and are culturally, linguistically, ethnically as well as in many other ways related to Maldivians. Undeniably, the term can be used to refer to the ethnicity of the people of minicoy and the meaning of the word has no contradictions. As long as applied to any of the 4 meanings above the term can be used to refer to anything. That's what dictionaries are for and we see many words from which several and even more than several meanings can be found in dictionaries. In case even one meaning applies, the word can be used for an object or to describe something. It has to be highlighted that in case of the Minicoy islanders all 4 meanings of the word Dhivehi apply.

Another objection the editor presented is the meaning of Dhivehin on the Radheef. It has to be highlighted that the meaning of the word Dhivehin in the Radheef even does not have any contradictions in calling the islanders of Minicoy Dhivehin. What's the meaning of the word Dhivehin in the Radheef. Dhivehi raajjeyge "ahuluverin". See the meaning of the word Ahuluverin from the Radheef or basfoiy. Here it can be found: (http://www.qaumiyyath.gov.mv/basfoiy/#bas). Again this word too has 4 meanings. 1- Ahulun - Another form of Ahuluverin. Which means the meanings below as a whole. (People use this word to refer to people who belong to somewhere too. In this sense too it applies to the islanders of Minicoy. We know who settled in Minicoy... Who are they descended from?? Look at the Tivarun story. So they belong to the Maldives in this sense) 2- Gaaiy thimaage meehun or one who is related to someone. (Obviously the cultural linkage applies here. Who settled in Minicoy?? Who are they descended from. The same ethnicity means obviously related. 100% of minicoyans believe that they are related to Maldivians and they are related culturally as well as linguistically to Maldivians. So this meaning applies). 3- Vazanverin or Settlers. (Who are the settlers of Maldives and Minicoy. Obviously the Dhivehi people. The people of this ethnicity who are the same living in Minicoy. Again it applies here.) 4- Some one who knows something or is familiar with something well. (In this sense even it applies as Minicoy islanders know a lot about Maldives as well as Maldivians or are greatly familiar with the Maldives.)

So why the word Dhivehi people can't be used in this sense too. These meanings here when asked defined by experts of Dhivehi language who took part in making the radheef can't be refused. The main problem is the authors or editors of this article took their own meanings of the words from the radheef. However, the meanings are in a wider sense and we have to look beyond what we see once taking the meaning of something. How dictionary meanings are we all should know. What the experts do in making dictionaries is to describe everything from one word or as less words as possible. It's what happened in this case. So the name Dhivehi people has to be used as it is the term which have already been decided and is being used by anthropologists. All evidences and reliable sources are in favour of this. It is the commonly used term. The most reliable and the most correct term. There is no contradiction for using this term. Using Mahl people is clearly against Wikipedia guidelines and with respect to the guidelines we have to use the name Dhivehi people for this article. Leone (talk) 19:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Demonym - culture/linguistics

Maldives being a country with 100% people of the same ethnicity (Dhivehi people), the term is used rather in a cultural sense to refer to the Maldivians while speaking in Dhivehi as there are people of no other ethnicity. The term Maldivian is the nationality of the Maldives nationals. They do not identify themselves as Dhivehis as a Demonym or Nationality. Otherwise, it would have been like in Netherlands where the term Dutch is used in referring to their language, nationality as well as ethnicity. There do exist a separate ethnic group named Dutch people which can be found in some other countries too. However, in the Netherlands the term Dutch is used to refer to the country's citizens. Notably, it is only 80.7% of Netherland's population who are ethnic Dutches. However, it's not the case in Maldives. It has to be highlighted that comparing with the Netherlands and many other countries with mixed ethnicities, Maldives being a country with citizens of 100% Dhivehi ethnicity is much more qualified to have labeled her citizens as Dhivehis. However, the country has not.

Moreover, it is common among ethnic groups or in other words ethno-linguistic groups to label themselves according to their ethnic groups while talking in their mother tongues. The examples of Bengalis, Tamils and many others can be taken. While talking in their mother tongue they say I am a Bengali, I am a Tamil and many such cases we can find. In case of almost all ethnic groups it is like this. It is the same in case of Maldives, where while talking in Dhivehi the Maldivians refer to themselves as Dhivehis. Note that culturally all Maldivians are Dhivehis and nationally even they are Dhivehis as their identity and nationality can't be separated as all are the same. Thus, in Dhivehi language they identify them as Dhivehis in a cultural sense. But still Nationally they do not identify themselves - the people as Dhivehis as a Demonym or internationally used term to refer to the country's nationals.

So judging from any point of view, even from the Radheef meaning (proven before) actually there is no contradictions in using the term Dhivehin or Dhivehi people. This misconception has to be cleared. Already a label for this ethnic group exists. We can't get together and invent a name replacing the usage of the term in reliable sources as well as other significant accounts. At least, the common usage of the term should be dealt with which is again Dhivehi people. Inventing a name doing so is against the rules of Wikipedia. Ethnically the Maldivians and Indians from Minicoy are known as the Dhivehi people. They were once part of the same Sultanate. But still share the same ethnic identity.

Leone (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Salaahuddin Al-Mahli

A a big misconception. Actually the part Al-Mahli refers to Male'. We all know that in the past the term Mahal was used in referring to Male'. It was a common practice of especially Salaahuddin to write the name of the place from which the person came after the name of the famous poets (Adheebun) and other learned men from the country while writing their names. It has to be highlighted that the term used in different cases and the names of different people differ. I will present before you many such examples.

• Ah-sheikh Al-Khatib Muhammad Jamaaluddin Ibn Annaib Isa Al-Mulaki (From Fuvahmulah, or much commonly referred as Mulah during those days)
• Al-Khatib Muhammad Jamaaluddin Al-Adduvee
• Ah-sulthaanul Ghaazee Ibrahim Iskandhar Al-Huravee
• Al-Qadi Muhammad Shamsuddin Al-Adduvee , etc...

I have seen even the usage of terms like Al-Meedhuvee and many more. Also, in referring to famous people there are many cases where the name of the University they studied were also added after their names such as:

• Ibrahim Rushdee Al-Azharee
• Ibrahim Lutufee Al-Azharee
• Moosa Fathuhee Al-Azharee , etc...

Note: In the article it was mentioned that previous Mahl writers write the term Al-Mahli while writing there names. Actually the conduct of one writer can't be taken to refer to all the writers. Salaahuddin writing Al-Mahli doesn't mean all writers used the term. Except Salaahuddin who else we could find among the writers using this term??? Moreover, as I said before from the wider range of sources available it shows that it was actually referring to the persons home or island.

Leone (talk) 16:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Mahls and Mahl language

It has to be highlighted that anthropologists divided this group of people into three subgroups. Among the three subgroups the people of Minicoy are one. The southern three atolls of Maldives act as one and the remaining parts of Maldives as the other. Mahl people is a term used to refer to the people of Minicoy or Indian Dhivehis as Manikfan has also mentioned in this article on the Indian Dhivehis part as well as that in the article - Mahl people which is a sub for Dhivehi people. So this term Mahl people can't be used to refer to the ethnic group as a whole and used as a synonym for the Dhivehi people which comprises of not only the Mahl people but also 2 other groups. On the introduction of the article at this moment the parts concerning this have to be added as many are getting confused or having confusions regarding the facts. It has to be added that the Dhivehi people are divided into 3 groups by anthropologists. Then the information regarding these three groups can be included in the introduction part. Later it can be brought into detail too. So this is the needed part now.

Then talking about the language, Mahl language is another word used to refer to the Maliku bas. There is no doubt that it is a dialect of Dhivehi. Not only the native Mahl or Maliku bas speakers agree with this, but the language scientists too grouped Mahl as a dialect of Dhivehi for which many sources are available. See these few links at a glance: http://books.google.mv/books?id=t5tL1eFoqKYC&pg=PA71&dq=mahl+dialect+of+dhivehi&hl=en&ei=YdXmTPaQB8aG5AaDpeH4Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mahl%20dialect%20of%20dhivehi&f=false , http://books.google.mv/books?id=cpxjAAAAMAAJ&q=mahl+dialect+of+dhivehi&dq=mahl+dialect+of+dhivehi&hl=en&ei=YdXmTPaQB8aG5AaDpeH4Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg , http://www.mathaaran.com/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mahl_language&diff=324137000&oldid=317642408 . This is why that Mahl language is not used in referring to the language as a whole. It can't be synonymous with the Dhivehi language which is the actual name. There are much different variants of Dhivehi language such as Huvadu bas, Mulaku bas, Addu bas and on which are much different than the similar Mahl dialect and standard Dhivehi.

Note: The usage of the term Mahl in Minicoy, India has started due to a misunderstanding on the part of a British officer who noted the name of the language as Mahl. All agree that it was the British officials who recorded the name as Mahl. It is from since then that this term is being used to refer to Minicoyan language. Until recently even, the islanders of minicoy only named there language as maliku bas which they themselves admitted to be a dialect of Dhivehi. However, the usage of the term Mahl has started among the islanders now as it is how the government popularized the term in India. With this, it is possible that it is due to this, the usage of Mahl people has started today. Still the usage of this term is very less indeed. The Minicoyans referred to themselves as Malikun only when this term has started to be used recently. Only a very few still use the term. However, now we can say that Mahl people is used to refer to Indian Dhivehis as Manikfan has mentioned. If the government officially uses mahl people for Indian dhivehis then it is compulsory to be included. SO including this part is important. Anyway, as it is in the article now is the best which is Mahl people being included in the Indian Dhivehis part which is the 3rd group of Dhivehi people. So the only revision to be brought is including the 3 subgroups of Dhivehi people's information on the introduction part of the article. With relation to this then separate sections can be made for these 3 groups within the article for describing in detail. Leone (talk) 20:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

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Diaspora size?

Two contradictory figures are used in this article for the size of the Maldivian diaspora in Sri Lanka - might someone be able to clear this up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:5054:FE00:155C:2CCF:5048:3C0F (talk) 14:24, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

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Maldives Eid celebration in olden days

How festivals and celebrations were held in olden days vs now 69.94.38.184 (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2022 (UTC)