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Talk:Malvern, Worcestershire

Latest comment: 11 months ago by Crouch, Swale in topic Malvern and Great Malvern
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Good articleMalvern, Worcestershire has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 12, 2010Good article nomineeListed
July 7, 2011Peer reviewReviewed
December 3, 2016Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Good article


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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Notable people

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Inclusion criteria for these sections is always contentious, but one should remember that the context is an article that people read to know something about the town's history and culture. The bar should be higher than having a Wiki article (we have Category:People_from_Malvern,_Worcestershire for that), and should particularly avoid recentism. It should be remembered that the purpose of the article is to inform people about Malvern, not a vanity site for fans and friends and civic pride. Kevin McE (talk) 09:59, 12 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Bus transport

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Bus routes in England - particularly in the Midlands - and their timetables and operators change frequently. The transport section has been allowed to grow and become populated with outdated and volatile content. The section has now been trimmed, dead sources commented out, and replaced with a new source that covers all. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:01, 12 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sources

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The referencing system is a mess. The MoS clearly states that while there are no hard and and fast rules for citation systems, no changes to the prevailing system should be made. If adding new sources, please be sure to use the existing system, and add new citations, using the citation template, in in alphabetical order in the References section. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Malvern and Great Malvern

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Latest comment: 11 months ago11 comments4 people in discussion

Sorry if this seems like an odd question, but what's our basis for calling the town simply 'Malvern'? There's no doubt that the civil parish is called 'Malvern', but the Ordnance Survey and ONS (search for 'Great Malvern' on the map) refer to the town and its built-up area as 'Great Malvern'. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:15, 21 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we should describe it as a town, its parish council may be named as a town council but that's also the case with Frinton and Walton. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Well it would complicate Great Malvern, would that be moved or merged? But yes, OS do use the term for a town
Some sources, particularly tourism boards and councils, state Great Malvern as a town centre of (the town of) "Malvern".[1][2][3] So seems thats the existing explanation on the surface in sources. But IMO there needs to be an in-depth source describing the town as Great Malvern, rather than just database entries for essentially the "official name". If that is found there may be a stronger case IMO. DankJae 22:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm not proposing a move or merge at this stage, just exploring the two names. Britannica uses "Great Malvern", the BBC seems to use both, as does the Guardian; the Telegraph has managed to use both in the same article! A.D.Hope (talk) 23:21, 21 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Of those "The Telegraph" does state it as a spa town as does EB, so a stronger link, the others used it more generally, possibly as just a general locator or not exactly referring the topic of this article (due to lack of context), so not concrete. But any source saying "Great Malvern is a (spa) town" is the best source, so far getting there, and if many do then a move/merge can be proposed. DankJae 23:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
One needs to look closely at what the sources are referring to. They seem to be pretty consistent in referring to the 'core' town as Great Malvern and the wider suburbs and area as Malvern. For example, the BBC sources highlighted refer to the Three Counties Showground in Malvern, the wider area outside of the town and the college in Great Malvern, the town — same with The Telegraph. The Guardian refers to Pound Bank Road in Malvern, outside the town centre but talks about the touristy part as Great Malvern. The apparent conflict lies with OS current mapping and ONS suggesting Great Malvern is the name of the entire built up area. Rupples (talk) 00:40, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
The OS and ONS sources unambiguously name the town "Great Malvern". Bing can display the 1:50k and 1:25k OS maps, and at those scales town names are denoted by large capitalised type and the names of their suburbs and other areas within them by smaller sentence case type. In this case "Great Malvern" is in large caps, so it's the town name.
Of the articles, the Telegraph uses the two names interchangeably and the Guardian "Let's move to..." definitely refers to the entire settlement as "Great Malvern" as it contrasts it with the surrounding villages, such as Madresfield. The BBC might deliberately distinguish between "Great Malvern" and "Malvern", but I'd need to find more articles to be sure. A.D.Hope (talk) 01:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
OS used to have Great Malvern marked twice on earlier maps; one for the parish and one for the town. The Malvern Link article makes interesting reading in connection with this. More recently, Great Malvern on mapping is the built up area, so yes my understanding is that nowadays it covers the spa town and former independent places, now looked upon as suburbs. Rupples (talk) 02:09, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@A.D.Hope. Are you saying the main article should be Great Malvern rather than Malvern, Worcestershire and North Malvern, Malvern Link, Poolbrook, Sherrard's Green and Wyche, Worcestershire all described as suburbs of Malvern should be noted as suburbs of Great Malvern? Rupples (talk) 02:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Yes, the toponymy in the area is quite interesting. For our purposes I think the fact the civil parish is called "Malvern" and the town is called "Great Malvern" or "Malvern" serves as a natural disambiguation. If I were setting out these articles from scratch I'd call the one about the civil parish "Malvern" and the one about the town "Great Malvern", while noting that the latter is also called "Malvern".
I'm reminded of Bishop Auckland, which is a merger of Bishop Auckland, West Auckland, St Helen Auckland, and South Church and where the name of the principal settlement has come to be used for the whole agglomeration (despite its centre being right on the urban boundary). A.D.Hope (talk) 09:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Great Malvern was a parish until 1974 (though only an urban parish in Malvern UD) but Great Malvern was a district from 1894 to 1898. "Great Malvern" seems to have been used as an alternative name for "Malvern" in the past but as noted "Great Malvern", "Malvern Link", "Malvern Wells" and "West Malvern" were all parishes until 1974 so should probably stay separate. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
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