This is an archive of past discussions about Malvern, Worcestershire. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Coincidentally, several non-scientists with Malvern connections have expressed interest to me recently in seeing a "popular" comment about what TRE and RRE did. Hence present expansion, based on information I have put into the TRE and RRE articles. Everything is verifiable, just cannot put in references tonight -- hope this can be avoided by referring to TRE and RRE articles. I will modify notable people list tomorrow, if present change acceptable, to take out people in TRE and RRE articles (would put note "see also people named in TRE and RRE articles) except Philip Woodward whose horology work should stay here
Michael P. Barnett (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC).
Just deleted people listed in TRE, RRE, QinetiQ. Do not know why double space above heading Notable people so cannot fix it. Also, do not understand what I did wrong with ISBNs that needed fix, but if someone explains I won't do it again. Thanks. 71.225.48.166 (talk) 12:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
An appeal to editors to be careful
Latest comment: 13 years ago12 comments6 people in discussion
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I just put in verifiability of Elgar Auden Attwood Crump and lost these because of edit conflict. My fault. But will redo later. Please do not take them out yet. For Annie Darwin, here is reference to gravestone Annie's grave in Great Malvern but do not know how to use this. However, school Auden taught at is in Herefordshire.
The Notable people section is one that needs to be carefully considered ahead of any possible FA attempt and also to maintain an article's GA status. Retain the list in this article or select a few really notable people and recast the section into prose, with a sub-article creating for a fuller list. Some would go further and just have a link to a sub-article. Whichever way is chosen there needs to be at least one reference for each entry giving their connection to Malvern. Keith D (talk) 17:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't think we need a source for Annie's grave Michael. The grave is there for anyone to see. It would be like insisting on a source for saying 'the sky is blue'. There's an essay about this kind of sourcing somewhere but I can't remember where. If we need photos of anything in Malvern urgently my Dad will take them, he's 91, but a dab hand with a digital camera - after all, he was one of the leading scientists at RRE. I'll be back there to for several weeks in April. BTW: The curator of Malvern Museum is a family friend. Kudpung (talk) 17:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I put in some of the people in the notables list because their pictures are in photographic history I cite. Don't want to presume on area of probable extensive guideline and established practice, but if allowable is following possible way to avoid list being too long. The first two sentences were there before I started to add. I put in the third sentence, and I think it flows from these. How about something like: "Princess Alice, later Duchess of Gloucester, and many other people who are discussed in separate articles are linked from St. James School, Malvern College, [any other schools that need mention]. Horticulturists include [actual names as links]. People who came to practice hydrotherapy, or for cures, included [actual names as links]. And so on. This would make material more compact, and more structured. But do not know if stylistically ok. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 19:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Three comments.
This is a nice article - congratulations to all on the work done so far.
It is not wise to label edits as "drive-by" or remove tags as "ugly", nor is it wise to be defensive about the GA status of an article. I sympathise with the last, as I understand the angst of having a deservedly won achievement taken away. However, the suggestion that "Any other editor on seeing such a tag can demote this article from GA in one mouse click", if true, would render the GA process something of a travesty and not really an achievement worth having after all. Any reassessment of an article's GA status should be conducted in a proper, accountable fashion: if it isn't, community GAR is available for redress. Further, if the article loses GA status in the future, it will be much easier to regain than it was at the first hurdle, because, thanks to all your efforts, and a thorough GAN review by Dana boomer, this article is built on rock, not sand. To summarize all of which: relax :)
As for the question of Notable People, the list in the present article is not sustainable. The connections vary enormously in their nature and significance – both to Malvern and to the people concerned. For example, why is it a big deal that Auden taught for just 3 years here? A list would organise the notables by their relationships, e.g. to Malvern College, the RRE, etc. In a mature article on a significant town, these are details which most readers will only want summarized. The argument that readers won't browse the list unless it is included is already grounds for moving it out. Once an article gets this good, the main challenge is to keep it focussed and avoid it becoming unreadably large. Geometry guy23:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Just noticed the citations needed. All except count of books covered by references to Reg Jones Wizard War and the Cold War Hot Science book. Is there some way to project relevance of book to entirety of paragraph, or does reference have to be given repeatedly? The number of books can be seen from list of references plus 30 books by one author in TRE article. If this is original research or synthesis should I just miss it out? Seems pity. But cannot deal with this for few days. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 00:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
If a source supports a whole paragraph, it is normally necessary to mention it only once, either at the start or at the end of said paragraph. Some people list it twice (after the first and last sentences). If you're particularly worried about it, you can leave a <!-- Hidden comment --> at the end of the paragraph that will explain the situation to anyone who might be spamming fact tags into the paragraph. (By "normally", I mean primarily that direct quotations always receive an inline citation, and of course you must use your best judgment about the value of redundant citations if significant WP:BLP issues appear in the middle of the paragraph.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I provided a citation for each specific technical development (without lengthening the article by more than five lines of bibliography) that is much more specific than the two books I mentioned. I made the paragraph about numbers of knights etcetera a hidden comment. I wrote it by going through the information about people listed in the TRE and RRE articles and counting. Is it ok to try to feed the summary, with references to justify it, to someone in Malvern, to get an article into the Malvern Gazette or some other publication, under someone else's name, that can then be quoted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael P. Barnett (talk • contribs) 14:42, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I would provide a list of people, with impeccable references that verified their honours (e.g. Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society, obituaries in Guardian) to someone who writes about Malvern and is a responsible checker of references.
Malvern Priory
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Thanks. I started to post comment twice but had edit conflicts. I do NOT want to be arbiter of who should be left out. Also, improved verifiability of Woodward seems to have got muddled in earlier edit conflict but hope ok now. Will hold off more verifying until list has been filleted. Please could Kudpung ask Museum Curator if what is now called Malvern Priory is coextensive with what is called Malvern Priory Church -- people want more about buildings, Pevsner's book helps but is unclear on this. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 17:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Great Malvern Priory Church of Saint Mary and Saint Michael, to give it its full name, is the church part of the abbey, and is all that remains of the abbey since the dissolution (except the gateway that now houses Malvern Museum). 'The Priory' as it is known locally is the parish church of the area known as Great Malvern, the traditional town centre of the Malverns, and has its own Wikipedia article. --Kudpung (talk) 13:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately for readers, these criteria are uncited, and provide no information about why the visit was significant. Many famous people have visited Malvern: do we mention Franklin D. simply because there is a plaque? Wikipedia is not Lonely Planet: if the visit, rather than the plaque, was significant, there will be RSS which say so, and our readers deserve to be told. Geometry guy01:10, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
The article is not about blue plaques any more than Annie Darwins grave is about gravestones. I know that someone will quote 'Other stuff exists' but a great many Wikipedia articles have lists of 'notable' people who have even less to do with the school or town. Based on that premise, FDR's visit was pretty important for a hick town like Malvern, and probably pretty important for him too - or is FDR not important? I'm all for cutting this notable people list down, in fact I never understood the encyclopedic value of such a section. Should we remove the list of people from the Blue plaque article too? Kudpung (talk) 07:26, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
I'll just add that as a sick child in the days of relatively primitive trans-oceanic travel, shipping the ailing FDR to the UK must have been quite an ordeal; he was more than just a passing hotel guest and he went there for reasons of Malvern's reputation as a leading Victorian health spa. FDR might be famous, but fame alone is not sufficient for WP:BIO. I have no allegiance to the USA, but I would imagine FDR to be a truly notable person, and as such, his presence on this list to be one of the more important entries Kudpung (talk) 12:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
I entirely agree that this article is not about blue plaques. I also entirely agree that Franklin D. Roosevelt is a very important historical figure. However, beyond coming from a wealthy American family, and being distantly related to Theodore Roosevelt, he was not particularly notable at age 7. I see no evidence that his visit was either notable to him or to Malvern at the time. Without reliable secondary sources as to why he visited, when, and for how long, speculations about the reasons and nature of his visit are nothing more than speculations. You clearly have a view on this: please provide sources which support it. I have found nothing which supports the assertion that he was shipped across the Atlantic because of Malvern's reputation as a health spa. What was his ailment, anyway?
The blue plaque is a source for very little: English Heritage confirmed that he visited (and there are other sources for this), presumably for a fee, and hence authorized the Aldwyn Tower Hotel to display the plaque. This shows at most that FDRs visit has become notable as a means of tourist advertising, e.g., for Aldwyn Tower Hotel, which is not, on its own, encyclopedic content.
Alwyn Tower hasn't been a hotel since pre WWII days or even earlier, it has been converted into flats, mainly students etc. I spent much of my early childhood in St Werstans, a large rambling 19th century pile almost directly opposite it. Someone bought a couple of the flats and did them up to rent them as holiday accommodation. The building is now a co-ownership as is any modern condo. Nobody gains anything from having a plaque about FDR on the wall. I strongly refute the allegations that English Heritage has taken money for allowing the placement of a blue plaque. You obviously have a very strong personal opinion about blue plaques, but with all due respect, I don't think this is the venue for a discussion about it. Kudpung (talk) 10:35, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
I am surprised you think you know my personal opinions when we have never met. In fact, I am completely indifferent to blue plaques, know next to nothing about them. (I have struck some of my above remarks and apologize for any offence taken.) Instead, you appear to be focusing on blue plaques, whereas I would rather talk about FDR's visit and what reliable sources there are which discuss it.
In this vein, I see you have found a BBC Midlands walking article which notes "look to your right and you'll see the lodging house where President Franklin D Roosevelt stayed as a boy." That is progress at least, but isn't exactly an ideal source, and the article states instead "[FDR] stayed at the Aldwyn Tower Hotel while convalescing from an illness at the age of 7".
However, it is pretty difficult to find anything substantial which is not tourist advertising. An example of the latter would be http://www.greatmalvernholidays.co.uk, which states "Aldwyn Tower was originally built as a grand spa-type hotel. One of its most famous guests was Franklin D Roosevelt (the 31st President of the U.S.A) who, in 1889 aged 7 years, was sent to Malvern to convalesce after suffering from tuberculosis." While we clearly have independent sources for the visit, I haven't found biographies which mention it, or serious childhood illness.
Now, you state above that "as a sick child in the days of relatively primitive trans-oceanic travel, shipping the ailing FDR to the UK must have been quite an ordeal; he was more than just a passing hotel guest and he went there for reasons of Malvern's reputation as a leading Victorian health spa," which is much more informative, so I repeat my unanswered question: do you have a reliable source for this? Geometry guy21:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
For what it is worth, in relation to this discourse: "Roosevelt childhood passed in a silver spoon atmosphere and he enjoyed frequent trips to many European countries of Europe that made his vision broader and exposed him to the outer world." [1]. And for reinforcement of hardship of transatlantic travel for the wealthy, see e.g. RMS Mauretania (1906)#Legacy And as regards tuberculosis, his diseases listed in a web site for presidential diseases [2] were polio, hypertension, hemorrhoids, anemia, melanoma (?), anorexia, weight loss, indigestion, sebaceous cyst, atherosclerosis, cardiomyopathy, angina, cholecystitis, cerebral hemorrhage which gives quite a selection to have been convalescing from, but not TB. For more scholarly information, several articles on FDRs health problems are listed on National Library of Medicine site [3] -- TB does not jump out of the titles, but of course the fact that medical biographers have not focused on TB does not verify he never had it. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 00:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
General
Re general matter of length of notables list, I moved a sixth of the list to paragraphs on music and on agriculture that I extended to agriculture and horticulture. Some of the others are already mentioned in body of article in connection with hydrotherapy. Several more could be mentioned under Schools. Who should move them, if doing so would help? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:30, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Anyone (autoconfirmed users) can edit any article. One can be WP:BOLD, but bigger edits might be best discussed. I'm not quite sure if moving notable students to the schools section is the best solution. IMO the schools section is generally about education in the settlement and not quite the same thing as the people who attended the schools. And interesting exercise would be to visit the alumni section of the Malvern College page, then also the List of Old Malvernians - all those notable people would be associated with Malvern! --Kudpung (talk) 13:08, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Cher Lloyd - I've added a ref taken from the X-Factor page, but as a non winner, and only an up-coming singer, she would probably not pass WP:BAND for a stand-alone page. I personally do not believe that contestants (non winners especially) in TV shows are necessarily notable, but I'm not sure what our policy is on this. I would tend to err on the side of caution and remove from the list on the premise that sources, however many there are, only confirm notability and do not confer it. Kudpung (talk) 12:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
W. H. Auden - removed from list. Although the village of Colwall is a contiguous part of the Malvern agglomeration, it is not part of the local government town or district, and is in another county. Kudpung (talk) 12:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
And excluding the Downs School precludes mention of Sanger: "Malvern Gazette, February 11, 1985. Dr Frederick Sanger, who has become a member of the elite Order of Merit, is a former pupil of the Downs School, Colwall. Double Nobel Prize winner for chemistry was one of three new members announced on Tuesday." Malvern Gazette 16 Feb 2011, Malvern Memories. Echoes from the past. Malvern GazetteMichael P. Barnett (talk) 01:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, we exclude him, Michael. As is mentioned elsewhere on this page, the village of Colwall has got nothing to do with Malvern, even if the local paper covers it because it's so geographically close to the town. There is absolutely no reason however, why Colwall shouldn't have its own Notable People section. Kudpung (talk) 13:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Stand alone page for Notable people
Latest comment: 13 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
My general advice, as noted previously, would be to create a separate List of people connected with Malvern (or something similar), in which there would be more freedom to elaborate on less significant connections. That would make it easier to write the Malvern article itself, which should remain focussed on the most significant connections. Geometry guy00:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't matter where and when - anyone can start a poll. Feel free to launch one. You'll certainly have my support.Kudpung (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
I have removed this from the music section: The Colwell and other brass bands of the early century and the bellringers of later years were part of the music of the town. I don't know where it came from, I'ver never heard of such a claim, and it's unreferenced. If somebody can find more info and/or a source, it can of course go back in. --Kudpung (talk) 14:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
I put back the mention of brass bands with reference to photographic history -- can provide page numbers of several adequately captioned photos if necessary. The bell ringers were personal recollection. Am now in email dialogue with enough Malvern people to get references if the ringing really was reported (in due course). Michael P. Barnett (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
The entry has other issues including no mention of which century is under discussion, and where these ringers and bands were hosted, and the names of the bands. I really think it should stay out until these and the issues of sources/notability have been resolved.Kudpung (talk) 10:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
The following is just for information -- can be shortened for inclusion -- but not for me to say if it should go in.
Brass bands have been a part of the Malvern musical scene for over a century. Photographs dated c. 1906 and between 1910 and 1918 of the Colwell and an unnamed brass band are on pages 53 and 60 of the photographic history of Malvern.<ref name=photos>Smith, Keith. ''Around Malvern in old photographs.''. Alan Sutton Publishing, Gloucester. ISBN 0862995876.</ref> The Malvern Hills District Brass Band won two prizes at the ODBBA Entertainment Contest in Burford, in 2010, and has played at the Royal Albert Hall.<ref>http://www.malvernhillsbrassband.co.uk ''Malvern Hills Brass Band'' website.]</ref>— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.180.153 (talk • contribs) 05:19, 18 February 2011 sorry forgot to sign Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
"Came to be cured" citation
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Would "came to the spa for hydrotherapy" take care of "citation needed". This gets round incompleteness of "to be cured" -- of what -- gout, melancholy, writer's block, insomnia? Also, it covers convalescence as well as being cured, which really are different. I agree strongly with GeometryGuy's analysis of why Roosevelt should be removed from notables list, and Roosevelt could be moved to Victorian Spa section -- can a case be verified that a 7 year old Roosevelt had such greater impact on Malvern than the adult Darwin, Dickens, Carlyle, Nightingale, Tennyson and Wilberforce, that he alone of these should be in notables. And Anne Darwin could be moved there, too. I will make the moves if no-one objects. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Apart from the thousands of day trippers who came from the dark satanic mills of Manchester and the Black Country to walk on the hills, they all came, with various ailments, to benefit from the alleged curative qualities of Malvern's water - which was all the place was famous for.
I don't think any of these people had any actual 'impact' on the town. In fact they were probably not even steeped in fame at the time. People who had impact were such as Gully who largely contributed to the development of Malvern as a famous Victorian spa town, and hence its sudden expansion from a hamlet sized group of houses around its priory, to a large town in the short space of less than half a century, as the article describes. In actual fact all those people who were connected with TRE/RRE never had any actual impact on he town either. We should probably remove C P SnowC. S. Lewis too, although by all accounts he did contribute to the turnover of the Unicorn. Kudpung (talk) 14:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I have not argued that "Roosevelt should be removed from notables list", merely that the list should be based on reliable sources. Notable people can be related to Malvern in multiple ways, their impact on Malvern and Malvern's impact on them being two obvious examples. However, we do not need to make up the rules: if a notable person has a significant connection with Malvern, then reliable sources will note it. Geometry guy00:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Thousands of day trippers per day
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Q: 5. if "thousands of day trippers came from Manchester" how did they get to and from Malvern in a day, and where is the verifiability
A: From the article, replete with sources: Following the completion of the Worcester & Hereford Railway, Great Malvern railway station opened on 25 May 1860, a Friday start to a weekend public holiday. It received a massive 10,000 passengers from all the newly opened stations on the line, and throughout June to September of that year day trips were frequent, filling the area with "the most curious specimens of the British shopkeeper and artisan on an outing".[1] Following Malvern's new-found fame as a spa and area of natural beauty, and fully exploiting its new rail connections, factories from as far Manchester were organising day trips for their employees, often attracting as many as 5,000visitors a day. In 1865, a public meeting of residents denounced the rising rail fares – by then twice that of other lines – that were exploiting the tourism industry, and demanded a limitation to the number of excursion trains. The arrival of the railway also enabled the delivery of coal in large quantities, which accelerated the area's popularity as a winter resort.[1]
^ abCite error: The named reference HCC1997 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
British spas from 1815 to the present: a social history (by Phyllis May Hembry, Leonard W. Cowie, Evelyn Elizabeth Cowie).
This is the most cited source in the article, with 9 citations. I see nothing wrong with the source, and it has copious references. We should try to separate the citations and add page references. There are also some quotes within a quote which we should track down to their original source. I am, of course, willing to help out with this. Geometry guy00:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
The rise of independent schools in Malvern
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
As is clearly explained in the article, the schools came after the drop in the town's popularity as a spa. The schools came to take advantage of the floundering hotel buildings, some of which were the largest and most impressive in the town, the town's excellent rail connections (one of which goes almost right into one of those hotels), and the safe, rural, small town environment. I do not think visits of parents to be pertinent to the article, and therefore the topic does not need documenting.Kudpung (talk) 04:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Bottled water in 1622
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The article states "Malvern is ... known for its bottled water since 1622". Does this imply that water was being bottled in Malvern in 1622 and, if so, what is the verifiability? According to "Bottle Bottles Bottling" [4] "as early as 1767, the waters of Jackson's Spa in Boston were bottled and sold". None of the sources on the history of Malvern or technology I have at hand now mention bottling in the 17th century. Absent verifiability of the date at which bottling started in Malvern, should "bottled" be changed to "spring" . Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). --Kudpung (talk) 12:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
link for Elizabeth, Countess Harcourt
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Sentence about hydrotherapy patients needed change because of following in article cited re Dickens. "om March 15 he was in Malvern settling his wife into the care of Dr. James Wilson ...". So had to (1) change mention of Gully to mention of Wilson and Gully, (2) drop "famous", (3) include reference, (4) for consistency up to that point, put in reference for Darwin -- it reads "about two years out of this time was lost by illness. On this account I went in 1848 for some months to Malvern for hydropathic treatment ...". The Dickens item led to distinction of the two Wilson's in hydrotherapy article. Getting the verifiability for these two was useful. Should reference-needed template be put in for other patients? Michael P. Barnett (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Section breaks
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Should the present "Victorian spa" be split into say "The beginnings of a spa", starting with the final paragraph at present under "Post dissolution" and breaking at about 1860, followed by "The flourishing and decline" or some other title. The building of the railroad could go at the end of the first, and its opening could start the second. If no comments for a couple of days will proceed along these lines. Presnt start of "Victorian spa" in 1757 bit premature. Would need to split a few sentences and rearrange but doable Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Michael. I think this would be a bad idea. The history sections sweep quite broad periods of history. I don't see a strong reason to split the 'spa' section into two pieces, as it's essentially all the same story. It's true that it does slightly predate the Victorian era - maybe a slight name change would help (something like 'development as a spa town')?
The section could do with some copy editing. As it stands, the first sentence doesn't say what the section is about, but assumes we already know. GyroMagician (talk) 12:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
0. Postscript to remarks that follow. I just got relevant part of Hembry book online. Hence resolution of item 4, given as new section.
0.1 Post-postscript. Have resolved item 6 (Enclosure Act) -- see below.
1. Using "Development of Malvern as a spa town", or some variant of this, would remove disparity between the 81 years from Wall's tract to Victoria's accession and the length of her reign. Could you make the change? I am unearthing considerable body of material, that I think is interesting, but feel it unWIKIlike to turn the process of incorporating it into a monologue. I will feel more comfortable proceeding piecemeal, to make sure successive items are concensual and can be seen to be concensual. Should the break from Post-dissolution then be with Wall or Banister (I use the DNB spelling of his name).
2. Overshadowing present question is the material I have not put in yet that I have found. I moved the quotations-from-poems into the Literature subsection, and the paintings into a new subsection (for which I have enough more to justify this status) Developments in agriculture and horticulture in the late 19th century, that link to several people and other topics about which there are WK articles need a paragraph -- but that can go into present Agriculture section. Correspondingly with recent work on stained glass windows and archaeology. But the building of the railway, including the blasting of the tunnel, warrants a couple of lines. So do the antics of Lady Foley. And I can't see where to put these except in History. And I am concerned about limits on length of a section.
3. The general question of social history has been raised in the article already by mention of railways, day trippers and conservation. To work out what is permissible within WK constraints, it helps me to think outside these briefly. Between 1750 and 1900, the Malvern population went from powerful aristocracy / landowning farmers / poorer farmers / agricultural labourers to aristocracy with substantial but terminal influence / urban rich villa owners / growing middle class / agricultural workers / non-agricultural workers (railways, quarries, breweries, bottlers). I have verifiability of this for rural England at large in standard texts, but do not know if applying generality to specific is unacceptable original thought or whatever, and do not want to get into a hassle.
4-. Following resolved below under Opening of railway
4. The present wording of the article suggests (to me) an overnight transition from a Malvern in which the only outsiders were hydrotherapy patients, to a Malvern indundated by day-tripping industrial workers, with the utilization of the railway continuing just for these and for school children. I can quote from accessible, responsible sources that many of the visitors to spa towns were vacationers without medical problems they sought to have cured, and I think I can get quotations supporting this for Malvern. Was there an implicit exclusion of the idea that the railway brought increased numbers of middle class (and aristocratic) vacationers? Does my mention of Baedeker and the entertainments help, and may I strengthen this with a few items from the Grindrod book?
5. I do not know if Malvern social history was affected by the number of visitors who came for non-medical and non-vacation reasons. I assume the number was considerable -- for commercial and professional purposes (selling to people in the town, representing people in the town), relating to the school -- at least one prize day and one annual sports day were reported in the London Times. Even if it was, and this is WK verifiable, I do not know if it is worth pursuing. An underlying question is the extent to which a place like Malvern could have been a mixing place for ideas and inter-personal associations -- an elite mixing at a prize-giving etc. But this speculation is too close to OR for pursuit in the article. The idea that people visited Malvern because of the schools was squelched firmly a while back, so I kept my mention of Longfellow and Lord Randolph Churchill and Prince Christian and Princess Victoria to the Malvern College article -- I assumed I could mention the Teck's here the way I did.
6-. Following clarified below under Enclosure Act
6. What really puzzles me is the Enclosure Act. The article seems to me to suggest it was brought in to prevent the Hills being taken over by the hydrotherapists. I do not have the expertize to understand fully the wording of the 1884 Act. These suggest to me that it is ostensibly aimed at preserving natural beauty from encroachment for quarries. But there is a letter in the Times stating that it is not what it seems, and that its opposition will harm agricultural poor to benefit industrial poor! Followed by a letter that refutes the article, with allusions I do not understand. My trouble with blanket references to the Hembry book is that I do not have access to a complete copy (just partial online version), and I have found that careful reading of some other references that were given for verifiability of statements in articles are irrelevant or contain statements that are the opposite of what they are supposed to be the basis of. It would be nice to have page numbers, in case like this, and quotations (if only in the Discussion).
7. I am sorry if I disturbed the easy flow of the article by my insertions. I tried to preserve the words that were there already, to avoid offense to their authors, but could only do this by the sort of non sequitur you mention. Maybe the best way forward is incrementally, with a third party removing redundancies and making changes needed for consistent style.
8. Hope it is not presumptuous of me to pitch in to an article that has had so much thought and knowledge put in. Doing this from afar may make it look worse, but finding out what can be found out this far away is fascinating. Thanks Michael P. Barnett (talk) 18:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Opening of railway
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Would anyone object to the following first mention of the railway?
The extension of the railway from Worcester to Malvern Link was completed on 25th May 1859.[1] "Besides middle class visitors ... the railway also brought working class excursionists from the Black Country with dramatic effect ... At Whitsuntide the following year, 10,000 came from the Black Country to the newly opened stations at Great Malvern and Malvern Wells.[2]
This would replace the following first mention:
Following the completion of the Worcester and Hereford Railway, Great Malvern railway station opened on 25 May 1860, a Friday start to a weekend public holiday. It received a massive 10,000 passengers from all the newly opened stations on the line.[2]
A reader might conclude from the present article that trains first brought travelers to Malvern on 25 May 1860, and the town was transformed overnight from one in which the only outsiders were hydrotherapy patients, into a town that was indundated by day-tripping industrial workers who had boarded at all the newly opened stations on the lines from the Black Country. The events are described in more detail, using direct quotes from the two books, as follows:
"In 1858, finally, work began on the double line from Worcester to Malvern .. the final section to Malvern Link opened on 25 July 1859, worked by the Oxford, Worcester and Wolverhampton Company ... (in 1859) on 25th May the line was extended for 2 miles through Great Malvern to Malvern Wells."[1] "Besides middle class visitors ... the railway also brought working class excursionists from the Black Country with dramatic effect. On the opening of the Great Malvern and Malvern Wells stations on Friday, May 25 1860, in time for the Whitsuntide holiday, the first 'holiday folk' came by train on Sunday" preceded by the stall holders who slept until 9 a.m. when "10,000 people came from the newly opened stations"
The references are to History of the Great Western Railway and to Hembry's book on spas, but they did not show up when I included {{reflist}} Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Seems OK to me, as long as we stick to date conventions through out the articles, in this case, for example 25 May 1784 (day/month/year, and no 'th'), and BE spelling, i.e. travelling, not traveling. (WP:ENGVAR). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:49, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Enclosure Act
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The display of the Hembry book is erratic, which may have led to a hiatus of content when read by earlier editors. The passages that I read last night, and quotations from the actual Act, provide verifiability of the following.
Local concern about the encroachment of scenic walks and views, by quarries and by the construction of residential and other buildings, led to the passage of the Malvern Hills Act of 1884,<ref name=MalvernHillsAct><nowiki/> with the hope that Malvern "could be the 'Metropolis of Hydrotherapy', giving pleasure to the rich and quiet recreation to the middle classes."<nowiki><ref name=HCC1997/> This strengthened the ability of the Conservators to purchase land and to exercise control, except on the Foley estate.
This would replace the present passage, which is inconsistent with Gully having been a Conservator
Fearing that Malvern would become the "Metropolis of Hydrotherapy", a Malvern Hills Act had been secured in 1884 and later Acts empowered the Conservators to acquire land to prevent further encroachment on common land and by 1925 they had bought much of the manorial wastelands.<ref name=HCC1997/>
The sentence about later acts could be moved to 20th century for consistency with subsection headings. I can post the relevant passages that are on p. 193 of the Hembry book .
You should have a 'Cite' button in the tool bar of your edit window. It gives a selection of buttons for various templates for citations. If you fill in the one for books, it does it for you. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Copy editing the present "Victorian spa" section
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Post-dissolution -> From dissolution to modernity - social change 1600-1900
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
This change to title of section allows transfer of some material from present spa section and inclusion of more on several topics that are verifiable in very reliable sources. Should I go ahead with this, or post material her for alternative suggestions? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Malvern, like any article, even though it is a GA, is always open to improvement. If your material is relevant, and if your sources are solid, be bold and go ahead with your suggestion. I know I wrote most of it, but I don't claim ownership of it and I've pretty much left off following it to focus on other work. If one day it becomes an FA candidate, any imperfections will be ironed out (even if it means losing some small items of content again), and I think I speak for the community when I say we have every confidence in your excellent contributions to it. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
BTW: When I mentioned WP:ENGVAR and MOS date use conventions, naturally if you are making a verbatim quote from a source, that quote should naturally be true to the original text. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Oxford :Dictionary of National Biography
Latest comment: 13 years ago13 comments4 people in discussion
A search of DNB using "Malvern" as free text key returned over 300 names that are relevant. I have cut and paste the displayed data onto my PC. There are WK articles about many of these. I would like to make the list available so other Editors can pick items they would like to incorporate. But I am not sure how much I need edit the material I retrieved, and where to post it (?in sub page of my User page) to avoid copyright problems and make it useful. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Thepolicyis that if it can't be in a Wikipedia article because of copyright reasons, then it shouldn't be in any other Wikipedia space. If you can find a way of avoiding copyright infringements, such as links to the sources, or with very short, accredited excerpts from the text, by all means put them here for discussion. See WP:COPYRIGHT first.--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Will put list giving name of person, vital dates, occupation here. Will it be better (1) one item per line or strung out to save space, (2) sequenced alphabetically or by year of birth or by year of death? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
I guess alphabetical would be easiest to manage. Over 300 is a very long list. It's always difficult to decide who to include/exclude, and reasons for for doing so are complicated, but I don't think the list should be allowed to grow much longer than it already is. Maybe we need to be a bit stricter about people having a notable link to Malvern, rather than simply being notable themselves? For e.g. the Dyson-Perrins family have had a significant local impact, while Roosevelt simply visited for a while as a child. I have previously argued against a separate page for the list of notables, but maybe it's time to revisit that idea? GyroMagician (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
This is a stopgap. I ran the search with date of birth as sequencing criterion, and edited down to present form for expediency. Cannot do more now, but will reorganize from fuller data into people who went to Malvern College and each of several other schools (maybe 30 or so), who were governors of College, who were born in Malvern, came for cure (perhaps 20 not mentioned in article yet, some wrote books about experience), died, were buried, lived for significant time, painted, studied local natural history etc in town. Far too many for inclusion, but will leave selection to others. I think Karl Marx and Thomas Hardy are reasonable candidates. !!! signifies article for person in WK, but I checked only intermittently -- there are probably many more. I tried to delete all the items mentioning other Malvern's. Deleted some mentioning just Festival, but maybe should keep them in reorganized list. Hope what I have done / am doing illustrates tactic that can be used for other towns, too. Evesham gave 283 names -- but I am not pursuing that. Also, this raises more general questions about using results of searches. For section on history of Malvern, I have done some Scopus and other searches that give extensive bibliographies. The medical aspects of water cures current topic of scholarly papers. Seems potentially useful to mention issues that are topics of ongoing publication, with recent reference. There seems to be many WK articles on legalisms. Are there articles on how to keep current, e.g. search tools, citation indexes and so on. Here is a full item returned by the search -- just one is not going to violate Copyright.
Nicoll, (John Ramsay) Allardyce (1894–1976), literary scholar...and a life trustee of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust. Allardyce Nicoll's favourite recreation was walking in the Malvern hills. He died at his home, Wind's Acre, Colwall, Herefordshire, near Malvern, on ...
Here is the edited list
Alphabetical order (numbered)
Abbot, Charles (1761–1817), botanist and entomologist !!!
Abbott, Evelyn (1843–1901), classical scholar
Abercrombie, Lascelles (1881–1938), poet and literary critic
Adams, Sir John Bertram (1920–1984), physicist and scientific administrator
Aherne, (William) Brian de Lacy (1902–1986), actor..
Alcock, John (1430–1500), administrator and bishop of Ely
Alfonsi, Petrus (fl. 1106–1126), scholar and translator of scientific works
Alice, Princess, duchess of Gloucester (1901–2004)
Arlen, Michael [formerly Dikran Kouyoumdjian] (1895–1956), novelist
Thanks. Here are some sublists. Particularly with former students of Malvern College, many are included in a WK article already, but their mention in DNB may be worth associating with their names.
Alphabetical order
Malvern College pupils
Abercrombie, Lascelles (1881–1938), poet and literary critic
Aherne, (William) Brian de Lacy (1902–1986), actor
Arlen, Michael [formerly Dikran Kouyoumdjian] (1895–1956), novelist
Aston, Francis William (1877–1945), physicist
Austin, Henry Wilfred [Bunny] (1906–2000), tennis player and evangelist
Bagnold, Ralph Alger (1896–1990), soldier and geomorphologist
Barnes, Sir Hugh Shakespear (1853–1940), administrator in India and banker Foreign Secretary
Beauman, (Archibald) Bentley (1888–1977), army officer
Begg, Sir Varyl Cargill (1908–1995), naval officer
Bennett, Sir John Wheeler Wheeler- (1902–1975), historian
Boosey, Leslie Arthur (1887–1979), music publisher
Fielding, Daphne Winifred Louise Vivian (1904–1997), writer and socialite
Uhlman, (Nancy) Diana Joyce (née Croft) (1912–1999), art gallery administrator
Wells House School, Malvern Wells
Clark, Thomas Archibald Bennet- (1903–1975), botanist
Green, George Frederick (1911–1977), writer
St Cuthbert's preparatory school, Great Malvern
Scott, Peter Duncan (1914–1977), forensic psychiatrist
St. Leonard's Boarding School for Girls
Hamilton [née Hammill], (Mary) Cicely (1872–1952), writer and campaigner for women's rights
"prep school in Malvern"
Kent, Sir Harold Simcox (1903–1998), lawyer and civil servant
Russell, (Irwin) Peter (1921–2003), poet and editor
TRE / RRE
Adams, Sir John Bertram (1920–1984), physicist and scientific administrator
Bell, John Stewart (1928–1990), theoretical physicist (theory of accelerators)
Beynon, Sir (William John) Granville (1914–1996), physicist ??
Bolton, John Gatenby (1922–1993), astronomer
Bowden, (Bertram) Vivian, Baron Bowden (1910–1989), scientist and educationist
Denton, Sir Eric James (1923–2007), marine biologist and physiologist
Hodgkin, Sir Alan Lloyd (1914–1998), physiologist
Huxley, Sir Leonard George Holden (1902–1988), physicist
Kilburn, Tom (1921–2001), computer scientist
Macfarlane, Sir George Gray (1916–2007), engineer and public servant
Paige, Edward George Sydney [Ted] (1930–2004), RRE, Surface acoustic waves
Reeves, Alec Harley (1902–1971), engineer
Rowe, Albert Percival (1898–1976), scientific administrator
Runcorn, (Stanley) Keith (1922–1995), geophysicist
Sutton, Sir (Oliver) Graham (1903–1977), meteorologist and mathematician (chief super RRE 45-47)
Williams, Sir Frederic Calland (1911–1977), electrical engineer and university teacher
possible TRE
Curtis, William Edward (1889–1969), experimental physicist wireless training centre
Gough, Herbert John (1890–1965), mechanical engineer RRE under Cockcroft??
Melville, Sir Harry Work (1908–2000), chemist ... 1945 Melville was superintendent
Local naturalists
Elton, Charles Sutherland (1900–1991), animal ecologist ... Eight long summer family holidays spent on the Eastnor estate in the Malvern hills also had a huge influence on his outlook.
Hicks, Henry (1837–1899), geologist and alienist proposed Precambrians in the Malvern hills
Lees, Edwin (1800–1887), botanist The Botany of the Malvern Hills (1843)
Phillips, John (1800–1874), geologist ... survey memoir on the Malvern hills (1848)
Salter, John William (1820–1869), palaeontologist contributed palaeontological appendices for memoirs on the Malvern hills by John Phillips
Wilson, Edward Adrian (1872–1912), Antarctic explorer and naturalist ... interest in the natural world, fostered by long walks in the Cotswold and Malvern hills
Water cure
Attwood, Thomas (1783–1856), politician and currency theorist 1855 moved to clinic run by a Dr. Johnson at Ellerslie
Callaway, Charles (1838–1915), geologist in 1876 Malvern for nervous illness
Carlyle, Thomas (1795–1881), ?The Life of John Sterling (1851) ?
Darwin, Anne Elizabeth [Annie] (1841–1851)
Darwin, Charles Robert (1809–1882),
Darwin, Sir George Howard (1845–1912), mathematician and geophysicist
Dickens, Charles John Huffam (1812–1870)
James Manby Gully
Hall, Peter (1803–1849), Church of England clergyman and topographer Malvern for treatment 1849,
Home, Daniel Dunglas (1833–1886), medium
Lane, Richard James (1800–1872), lithographer and sculptor ... wrote Life at the Water Cure, or, A Month at Malvern (1846).
Lonsdale, John (1788–1867), bishop of Lichfield during 1844 to 1849
Lytton, Edward George Earle Lytton Bulwer
Marx, Karl Heinrich (1818–1883),
Mitchell, William (1821/2–1908), print collector and connoisseur !?*
Nichols, Mary Sergeant Gove (1810–1884), campaigner for medical reform and women's rights
began a ‘school of life’ at their new water-cure centre, Aldwyn Towers, in 1867 ... (they) practised medicine (she claimed healing powers)
Procter, Adelaide Anne [pseud. Mary Berwick] (1825–1864), poet and women's activist in 1862 ... tuberculosis ... tried the cure at Malvern, 2 February 1864
Reade, Charles (1814–1884), novelist and playwright hydropathic treatment for his nerves
Roby, John (1793–1850), writer and banker ... took the water cure at Malvern in spring 1847
Good idea Michael. With all these other people from Malvern, it might be an idea now to start a list page as Giro suggested - there's no way we can accomodate them all on the Malvern page. Malvern College is interesting (it's also one of my GAs). There is a special list for alumni that I also made at List of Old Malvernians. You can add to that list if you would like to, but there are some special conditions of verifiability attached. If you do, I would suggest you start with the ones that have Wikipedia pages and proven attendance at the school. Photos would be good too if you can find any. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I took a quick look at Old Malvernians. The following are missing: Bunny Austin, Beauman, Varyl Begg, John Wheeler-Bennett, Boosey of Boosey & Hawkes. So are Bury, Christie, Harvey, Jeffries, Knox, Mogg, Mozley, Reid, Robertson, both Salmon's, Savill, Dennis Sciama, Stacpole, Titchener, Walwyn, Wilks, Williams, Wood -- I did not check for WK articles on them systematically, but I remembered there is one for Dennis, and the closest for Brian Salmon (relevant to Leo computer) are J. Lyons and Co. and Salmon & Gluckstein, latter does not have a single reference -- how does that go unnoticed? But time is inelastic, and I think the best communal use of the time I can spend on WK is to post in Malvern and Malvern Hills articles /discussion pages, and on articles about John C. Slater and Charles Coulson, further material I have collected / know where to look. I have given a cache of papers, "grey" literature etc. to Chemical Heritage Foundation that articles on Slater and Coulson, and if I can manage it, R. A. Smith, can refer to. Going back to DNB, when I need it for verifiability or emphasis, is <ref>Oxford Dictionary of National Biography</ref> sufficient -- this can be done quite fast, but putting full reference to author of DNB article is time consuming and can make the bibliography overwhelming. What about other people mentioned in association with College? And the other schools? I think that the article about an Old Malvernian, when there is one, should be edited to mention attendance at College. Are there ways to streamline this? Is it permissible to have hide/show paragraphs in an article. Cannot do more now. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Well done Michael! As Im not subscribed to ODNB online, I kept putting off going to the library to do this so Im glad youve taken the initiative and pasted your search results here! The arrangement by Kudpung will also be useful for editors. The ODNB is of course a very reliable source and would be an invaluable reference. Also, Im glad that some of the names under MC are ones I havent seen before (I was expecting that!) but its not a complete list. In particular, most sportsmen are omitted. But nothing is perfect! Exceptionally, even a school's own Registers can seem incomplete, whether due to a variation of spelling or an omission... For example, Stacpoole, the author of "The Blue Lagoon" (youve probably had a cocktail or been to a restaurant by the same name!) has a "k" in the Register. Although I added a Malvern reference to Stacpoole's page last year, his page is badly in need of expansion. Note also that not all persons who come under a search hit for a school necessarily attended attended as a pupil. Some may have taught there, others been on the Council, some may just have visited. It could be that Bunny Austin actually attended Repton instead of Malvern?! You have to be a bit careful about computerised search results....
I think in the absence of a functioning external link to an ODNB or other reputable webpage, it would be preferable to add the proper reference including edition, publisher, page... Only verifiable notable persons should be on the list, no matter how notable they may seem. Others for which information is lacking can be put on the discussion page on a "pending" list, as Kudpung has done in the past. Note that there is the category Old Malvernians and there is also the List of Old Malvernians, the latter being more selective, I hope. --Abacchus1974 (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I checked through the excerpts -- Bunny Austin scored a century AGAINST Malvern College, so should not be included, and Williams connection with Malvern College was as a teacher. Almost all the other excerpts state "was educated at" or "attended". The others state "won a scholarship to" (or paraphrase thereof) so I suppose assuming actual attendance may be questionable. So this cuts down further searching by two. A few have additional comments, e.g. Mortimer -- his "most philistine" experience, Elliott -- brief because of kleptomania. Problem not with searching having been done by computer -- just too rapid skimming of excerpts. Could NOT have got the list without free text search, and THAT needed computerized resource. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
DNB is accessible. Herewith a quotation from one of its websites: "How do I read the Oxford DNB? ... If you don't have a subscription, but want to read our biographies, here are some avenues. Use your local library's online subscription ... Almost all public libraries in the UK now subscribe online. ... Many public libraries elsewhere in the world subscribe; ask your librarian. ... Do you know you can now use your library's subscription from your own home (or anytime, anywhere with internet access)?" [6]Michael P. Barnett (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
History subsections
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
It seemed awkward having Prehistory under History. I think history and prehistory are sometimes distinguished by the existence / absence of contemporary written material. But 1st definition in OED is "a relation of incidents ... professionally true", and 2nd definition brings in "written records ...". The archaeological studies of Malverns go well into the time of written records. I made the change to "Bronze Age to Monastic Times" tentatively to avoid "Prehistory" but do not like it very much. Also, "the history waits 1000 years" is a nice literary flourish, but can we be sure Malvern is NOT mentioned in any Anglo Saxon documents. I do not want to tamper with other Editor's style, but saw no harm in mentioning. Incidentally, the tombs of St. Wulfstan and St. Oswald at Worcester Cathedral, and St. Thomas Cantilupe at Hereford Cathedral became shrines -- will try to find mention of Malvern being on a pilgrimage trail. A drover's route went through Malvern (verifiably). Roman road map I looked at includes roads just a bit north and south of Malvern. I found stage coach schedule to Malvern. Would be nice to have info on earlier travel. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
l
Latest comment: 13 years ago27 comments3 people in discussion
These discussions are open to the world. Might the image of Wikipedia be affected by arguments that contain statements which could be considered inaccurate or at least unsubstantiated. For example,
1. the supposed rigours of the infant Roosevelt crossing the Atlantic (in a vessel categorized as a luxury liner) is the subject of earlier comment (immediately above Talk:Malvern, Worcestershire#General at 9.57 est Feb 19),
2. likewise Roosevelt's supposed tuberculosis
3. people who "were probably not even steeped in fame at the time". Some, at least, were:
"Florence Nightingale, who came frequently to Malvern for treatment following the collapse of her health after the Crimean War" [7]
and where is verifiability of other people who came for cure?
4. "all those people who were connected with TRE/RRE never had any actual impact on he town" -- as the largest employer they contributed to the economy, to the appearance, to the traffic, to the school population of the town. The articles on TRE and RRE staff who were elected to the Royal Society, in Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of Royal Society, mention church and other social activities. I will look for mention of local amateur dramatic and musical groups, cricket and other athletics.
5. if "thousands of day trippers came from Manchester" how did they get to and from Malvern in a day, and where is the verifiability
6. The sarcasm about C.P.Snow is lost on me, so I cannot gauge its relevance to reasoned discussion.
Unsourced comparisons of relative importance are unverifiable value judgments. Even if Roosevelt did stay in Malvern, and was convalescing, where is the NPOV and verifiability of his meriting attention that differs from other people who came and convalesced. He was important in world history, and so were some of the others.
Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales once compared Wikipedia articles (like laws) with sausages: you might like the taste of them, but you don't necessarily want to watch them being made. All sorts of unsourced speculations have been made on article talk pages; what matters is that the articles themselves are accurate reflections of reliable sources. I've been trying to source the story of FDR's visit to Malvern, and the results so far are surprising and quite illuminating. Geometry guy22:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
FDR redux
As far as I can tell the most credible historical source for the fact that FDR visited Malvern as a child is a letter he wrote to his mother headed "ALDWYNTOWER, GREAT MALVERN". It can be found in "F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Early Years", a collection of his letters, edited by his son Elliot Roosevelt, and first published in 1947. The letter describes a day indoors playing games, but ends "We nearly went to the beacon this morning and we picked a lot of wild flowers". The editor notes:
“
In the summer of 1889, [FDR] went abroad and the slight illness with which he boarded the boat was soon diagnosed as typhoid fever, necessitating his going to the Royal Infirmary in Liverpool immediately after landing. He convalesced under the care of his governess at Great Malvern, in Worcestershire, while his parents were away visiting friends - hence this letter. It was printed in ink and the date "1889" added by his mother.
”
So it seems that: (1) the illness he had was typhoid fever, not tuberculosis (and some modern sources, such as this refer to "typhoid"); (2) he didn't cross the Atlantic specifically to visit Malvern, but came with his parents with other destinations in mind, only to fall ill with typhoid fever on the way.
As FDR was born in January 1882, he would have been 7 in 1889.
Now, we could stop here, but the above note was written sometime after the event and supplies details which might be corroborated by other sources. The result of following this up is surprising, but may explain why it is so hard to find reliable secondary sources for the visit: there are detailed reliable secondary biographical sources for FDR's typhoid fever in 1889, but they none of them (that I have found) mention Malvern!
Before the trumpet - Geoffrey Ward
At age seven, in August 1889, Franklin was again taken to England. "The dear little man" was running a temperature when the Adriatic set sail, his mother noted, and did not feel at all well; but Dr. Parker had assured her that the boy had simply picked up a slight fever while swimming in the Hudson; a sea voyage would be just the thing to "break it up..." Two days out, the ship's doctor diagnosed typhoid fever. The special care and treatement Franklin then received (and which both he and his parents evidently assumed was his due) must have heightened his sense of his family's importance, and of his own. The ship's captain gave him his own "large airy room on deck"; his mother never left it during the crossing except to change her clothes, and once to attend church services, praying for "darling Franklin" while his "dear papa and Ellen" watched the patient. At Queenstown, the captain wired ahead to have his own cousin, a Dr. Gemmell, and a trained nurse meet the boat at Liverpool. Sir Thomas Ismay, founder of the White Star Line and an old friend of Mr. James, dispatched a special tender to ferry Franklin ashore. A carriage took the pale little boy on his mattress to the doctor's own home, where he lived for several weeks, receiving round-the-clock attantion. The captain of the Adriatic came to call; Sir Thomas sent fresh flowers daily; his partner sent fresh milk.
Franklin got better slowly. His temperature fell. He graduated from "cold boiled milk" to "chicken tea" to bread and milk laced with a little port (which he told his mother was deliciously "fruitful"). He played with paper cutouts and a basin filled with toy ducks, and by November 5 was well enough to travel with his parents to Pau, where he and Mr. James rode together each morning, Franklin on a small pony named "Coquette" whose frenzied gallop precisely matched the pace set by the gentle canter of his father's horse "Gigi".
According to this source, he was nursed back to health at Dr. Gemmell's house. The source also provides the original destination of the trip: Pau in France. However, it does not say anything about where FDR was in September and October.
Other sources support the above story, and tell a little more.
FDR: the beckoning of destiny: 1882-1928 - Kenneth Sydney Davis
He was met at the Liverpool dock by a Dr. Gemmell, who, a cousin of the captain's, had been summoned by the latter via a telegram from Queenstown. He was taken in an ambulance to the doctor's own home, since hospitals in those days, believing typhoid highly contagious, would not accept typhoid patients. And every day he was confined there he received flowers and milk sent by two top officials of the ship line whose coupled names had the euphony of pig latin, Ismay and Imray, both of whom were longtime friends of James Roosevelt. For convalescence he was taken to a house in Mixbury rented by Rosy and his family that year. James and Sara left him there with Rosy and Helen while they went down to visit Sir Hugh and Lady Cholmeley at Grantham, near Euston ("James had some good shooting with Sir Hugh", Sara noted in her diary).
Seldom and slight, save in the master-servant relationship, were the boy's contacts with people who had to earn their livings. In Europe his parents mingled almost exclusively with the aristocracy. For instance, in mid-October 1889, after the boy had fully recovered from his illness, he was taken by his parents to France, where they all lived for several weeks in Versailles and Paris before moving to Pau. In Pau, James rented an apartment for the winter.
So he went from Liverpool to Mixbury (near Brackley and Buckingham), not Malvern, where his elder step-brother James Roosevelt Roosevelt (Rosy) and family had rented a house. Could this be a mistake? Well, there is another source with similar details:
Gracious lady: the life of Sara Delano Roosevelt - Rita Halle Kleeman
At Liverpool they were met by Dr. Gemmell, a cousin of the Captain, who had summoned him by telegraph from Queenstown. He took the boy in an ambulance to his home, for hospitals at the time considered typhoid contagious and would not take typhoid patients.
Here he had all the care that love and medical and nursing skill could provide for him. Each day, Messrs Ismay and Imray of the Cunard Line, old friends of Mr. Roosevelt, sent flowers from their own places and also milk, the only food the boy was permitted.
After a few days in Liverpool, Franklin passed the crisis. His mother records:
Here is attached a chart from the Royal Infirmary Liverpool, with which Dr. Gemmell was connected, of "F.D. Roosevelt, Age 7."
A few days after the last entry, Mr. and Mrs. Roosevelt and Franklin went from Liverpool to visit Rosy who was living in Mixbury with his family. Mr. and Mrs. Roosevelt left Franklin there, "gaining strength", while they visited their old friends, the Cholmeleys, at Easton, where "James had some good shooting with Sir Hugh". They went, too, to Belvoir, one of the most beautiful of the English castles, belonging to the Duke of Rutland. Here there was much riding and hunting, in which Mr. Roosevelt joined with the numerous neices and nephews of the family. Mrs. Roosevelt usually drove after them with the Duke who was old and gouty.
Easton, Grantham and Belvoir are geographically close, so the previous source may have confused Easton with Euston (near Thetford, not Grantham). Also "Cunard Line" is wrong here (White Star merged with Cunard in 1934 and new company was known as Cunard from 1950). Nevertheless, the sources tell a fairly coherent story, in which FDR is treated in Liverpool, then convalesces in Mixbury. Furthermore, the sources appear to be based on a contemporary record: his mother Sara's diaries.
So what of the visit to Malvern? There is one detail which we haven't yet explored: who was looking after FDR while he was in Malvern? Although we may now question its reliability, Elliot Roosevelt's note states it was his "governess". Presumably FDR was not with his parents at the time, otherwise he would not have written a letter. The other sources also discuss FDR's governesses. In particular:
“
When the Roosevelts left London for Pau after Franklin's bout with typhoid in 1889, a Miss Buckingham had accompanied them. She was his first governess and would remain only until the family began to make its way home again the following spring.
”
— Geoffrey Ward, loc. cit.
None of this gives any confidence as to precisely when FDR visited Malvern, or for how long. It could even have been on the way home in spring 1890. We cannot yet reliably source the visit as "convalescence", nor even that it lasted for more than a few days. Geometry guy22:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Enquiries
I sent a query to the Archivist at Hyde Park yesterday. The email address is Archives.FDR@nara.gov -- on the "Contact us" web page http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/contact.html . Whatever the outcome of further exploration, you have struck something really interesting. I have a question -- not wanting or trying to be difficult, just forced to ask by my training (in natural sciences): unless a photographic copy of the letter is under inspection, how is the possibility of error in the editing excluded? Suppose, e.g. Elliot had a damaged letter, without an address at the top, and filled it in from an erroneous reconstruction. I am NOT disputing that FDR was in Malvern, just mentioning possible loophole in the argument that he was. I think literary scholars (and Miss Marple) could come up with a variety of scenarios that lead to people being put in the wrong place. (e.g. The governess providing a false address to conceal a clandestine activity?) Elliot was editing as a son, not as a historian. Are there accessible comparisons of result of Elliot's editing and ANY holograph of FDR? I also emailed the West Midlands English Heritage office for information on their database of verifications. My interest is in the mechanisms for getting correct information, not in whose perception is correct or incorrect. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 00:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Many things are possible: as historians we focus on what is likely; as editors we focus on what is verifiable. In the real world, rather than Agathe Christie, cock-up is more likely than conspiracy. The ALDWYNTOWER address ties up with the reference to "the beacon", and Elliot is careful to note that the 1899 date was added by FDR's mother, suggesting he would have noted other added information. A possible resolution is that FDR acquired his governess earlier, in New York, Liverpool or Mixbury; for instance they (with Rosy and family) could have visited Malvern from Mixbury while FDRs parents went to Easton.
Good luck with your enquiries. One question is: where was the letter sent? Be aware however, that emails and other personal communications are not verifiable (the reader has no way to check their authenticity)! Geometry guy13:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Herewith slight revision of what hit an edit conflict with your remarks. I agree that mixups transcend conspiracies in real world, and I agree strongly with inadmissability of email -- I use it in this context to seek scholarly references to generally accessible material rather than just unverifiable opinions.
The comments I had written earlier (which do include one "conspiracy" item -- consistent with personal experience of what other people did) follow.
Hotel letterhead paper has a habit of wandering. A printed hotel address at the top of a page does not prove where the page was written on. A very quick search for when letter head paper came into use suggests mid 19th century [8].
It is not unknown for an unscrupulous antique dealer to display letters that appear to have been written by famous people. An American tourist might see a letter apparently from FDR to his mother, buy it for a nominal sum, and send it to FDR's family as a gesture of support for the memory of FDR. (conspiracy de luxe -- quite like an Inspector Lewis case on U.S. TV recently)
The history of documents that were fraudulent is extensive, see e.g. [9]
Did FDR customarily omit the date at the top of a letter?
When did American children start using the word "checkers" for what is "draughts" in English English.
P.S. Is it possible that FDRs parents allowed the English governess to take FDR to Malvern because she wanted to visit relatives, friends, school(s) there? If this cannot be ruled out, then it becomes difficult to insist that the only reason FDR had to visit Malvern was for the waters. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree that this is quite fascinating. Unfortunately, we cannot include original research or synthesis in Wikipedia articles!
FDR did omit the date from some of his childhood letters, but was mostly including it by 1889. Both "draughts" and "checkers" were used in the US in the mid 19th century. As far as I can tell, there are no beacons near Mixbury (the nearest may be Ivinghoe). Geometry guy15:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Please read before you write: I am discussing beacons close to Mixbury, not close to Malvern: neither the Herefordshire Beacon nor the Worcestershire Beacon are close to Mixbury; the Ivinghoe Beacon is closer, but still not particularly close. The point here is that reference to a beacon is evidence that the letter was written from Malvern, not Mixbury, because there are no beacons near Mixbury. Geometry guy23:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree completely that we cannot include synthesis in a WK article. But isn't it synthesis to conclude (FDR was in Malvern to convalesce) from (FDR was in Malvern) + (only reasons anyone came to Malvern were to convalesce or as day trippers) + (FDR was aristocrat) + (day trippers were not aristocrats) . Also where is verifiability that (only reasons anyone came to Malvern were to convalesce or as day trippers) . Quite apart from omission of for cure which is not same as to convalesce, or to visit friends, relatives, have job interviews, explore business opportunities etcetera Michael P. Barnett (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
It is synthesis indeed. We currently cannot conclude from reliable sources that FDR came to Malvern to convalesce, only that there is evidence of a visit. Geometry guy23:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Right. On closer reading, the English Heritage Blue Plaques scheme is for London only! All the detailed criteria of that scheme are completely irrelevant to Malvern, where blue plaques have little to do with English Heritage. Are you following up enquiries with the Malvern Civic Society? Geometry guy01:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Whilst the following email message from a Senior Archivist at Hyde Park does not constitute verifiability, it is a start of dialogue regarding reliable documentary sources. But is there a catch. If definitive records of the day-by-day activities of an individual X do not allow possibility of a visit to Y in year Z, isn't removal of statement that X visited Y in year Z impermissible original research (it has involved a deduction). Anyhow, the substance of the message is: "Our resources do not reflect that young FDR traveled to England in 1888. He was in England in late 1884 and early 1885 with his parents, and then again traveled to England on board the White Star liner Adriatic with his parents in 1889. During the latter voyage, young FDR did come down with what was diagnosed by the ship's doctor to be a case of typhoid fever. The ship was met at Liverpool by a doctor, who took little FDR to his home during the most critical days. Our sources then reflect that after the initial contagious period was over, FDR and his parents then went to a house in Mixbury that had been rented by FDR's much older half-brother James Roosevelt Roosevelt for the year. FDR completed his convalescence at the Mixbury house.".
I emailed the Secretary of the MCS a couple of days ago: "I am trying to find the scholarly basis for the statement on the blue plaque on the building that was once the Aldwyn Towers Hotel, about Franklin D. Roosevelt. I would be glad if you would forward this message to the appropriate member of the Malvern Civic Society." No reply as yet. Hopefully, Editors who are family friends will get better response. However, I have a few questions triggered by statement "Apart from day trippers ... Manchester and Black Country ..., they all came, [for] water"
1. In view of the terms of the 1884 Malvern Hills Act of Parliament, is there documentary evidence of visits to Malvern of amateurs and/or professionals interested in flora, fauna, geology, archaeology of the hills?
2. In view of the history of rambling, (see e.g. [http://www.ramblers.org.uk/aboutus/history Ramblers] and availability of first class travel Great Western Railway#Passenger services, is there evidence of rambling excursions by middle class visitors, on day trips or extended vacations?
3. Is there documentary information about visits to the town by parents of prospective pupils and by families attending school events at Malvern College?
4. The occupancy of hotel rooms undoubtedly dropped drastically when the hydrotherapy went out of vogue, but it still would be interesting to get a gauge on numbers of people who visited Malvern for non medical reasons in 19th century.Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:51, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
(←) Apart from the discussion of (non-)visits in years other than 1889, the content of the Hyde Park archivist's message can be completely verified by the three reliable secondary sources I used above, and completely agrees with the narrative established from these sources above.
Concerning Michael's question about original research, Wikipedia articles do not have to include all material, and excluding material from an isolated source is not original research. If source material is dubious, but notable, then one option is to include it with in-text attribution, and let the reader decide. Geometry guy20:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
proof of FDR visit
I have received this night the following communication containing transcript of a letter penned by FDR. The original is in the Malvern Museum. It may also be possible to have an electronic copy of it sent to OTRS for approval, but I have not asked this favour yet:
F D Roosevelt @ Aldwyn Tower, Malvern – 1889
Letter from FDR to his mother;
1889
Aldwyn Tower
Great Malvern
My dear Mama,
We have not been able to go out today. We have been play-
Ing games. One game was Steeplechase the other was Soldiers
the other Dominoes, and it took up all the morning. We played
some more this afternoon. We made a great discovery of a box
of Dominoes and Draughts with the red and white kings and
queen just like that book THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS.
We nearly went to the beacon this morning and we picked
a lot of wild flowers. Your loving
FRANKLIN
Written across the outside of the letter, to show when folded:
In the summer of 1889 he went abroad, and the slight illness
with which he boarded the boat was soon diagnosed as
typhoid fever, necessitating his going to the Royal Infirmary
in Liverpool immediately after his landing. He convalesced
under the care of his governess at Great Malvern, in Worces-
tershire, while his parents were away visiting various friends
– hence his letter. It was printed in ink, and the date ‘1889’
added by his mother.
My comment further up:
as a sick child in the days of relatively primitive trans-oceanic travel, shipping the ailing FDR to the UK must have been quite an ordeal; he was more than just a passing hotel guest and he went there for reasons of Malvern's reputation as a leading Victorian health spa
is not in the article, and does not need a reference. We need to differentiate between discussing improvements to the article (additions and/or deletions) , which my statement does, and what is actually in it and needs sourcing. Kudpung (talk) 04:30, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, we are aware of the letter. Please read the beginning of the thread (FDR redux). It would be great to have an electronic copy (if not possible, I could visit Malvern). Geometry guy08:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Returning to this, I am now extremely intrigued to see the original letter for the following reason: the above transcript uses identical line breaks (including hyphens) to the book "F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Early Years", the 1947 collection of FDR letters, edited by his son, and quoted in FDR redux above. This is interesting because the book, which has a full preview on Google books, does not contain a facsimile of this particular letter, and does not format or hyphenate other letters according to the original. The book contains multiple facsimiles of FDR's letters at this age, and they use far fewer words per line, because of the large writing of a seven or eight year old.
The most obvious conclusion is that the above transcript is taken from the book (1947 collection) or some derivative. The second part of the transcript is actually an editorial note in the book: according to the editor, the message readable on the outside of the letter, when folded, is "FROM FRANKLIN". All this can be checked on Google books. Geometry guy21:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I have written again to the curator of the Malvern Museum and I have sent you a copy of the communication. If the museum indeed has the original letter, they will doubtless confirm it. Kudpung (talk) 01:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Personal connections can work wonders, but in order to avoid any possible COI issues, I'll have to stop doing this ;) Kudpung (talk) 06:39, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I've been slightly wrong about Aldwyn Tower. My father stayed there for a while around 1940/42 when TRE was moved to Malvern before he was finally billeted in rooms at what is now Malvern College. In those days is was already not a 'Grand hotel', but apparently more of a rooming house. Some time after the war it became a private, rather than a commercial hotel, and did not extend to providing food or refreshment for the guests. It was owned by a Mr Reg Weeden and continued to be run as an economy hotel - probably a bit Fawlty, without the food - until Weeden passed away at the age of 100 about 15 years ago, after which it was finally converted into studio flats (apartments). Kudpung (talk) 14:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
