Talk:Maria Branyas

For those editing

This article, while mostly covering Rendon's death, does include some info that could be used in a early life section for María Branyas: https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/catalonias-maria-branyas-becomes-oldest-living-person-on-earth-at-115 TheCorriynial (talk) 01:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The result of this discussion was to move (WP:SNOW). I have requested a technical move, so the page should be moved soon. _MB190417_ (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

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María Branyas → Maria Branyas – This is a Catalan name. Thus, it should be spelled with Catalan orthography, since it is the native name. The acute accent is suitable in Spanish, but not in Catalan. It's used by many reliable English-language sources, such as the BBC, National Public Radio, Forbes, CBS News, and Catalan News. -- Brunnaiz (talk) 18:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support English Wikipedia seems to be the only major Wikipedia using María in the article name. (see the list of Wikipedias on the Wikidata item for her). Even the Spanish version is es:Maria Branyas Morera. I think WP:COMMONNAME applies here. Peaceray (talk) 19:12, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The accented i can be difficult to type without special knowledge, just like curly quotation marks. Georgia guy (talk) 19:16, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Really, the name Maria should not have accent, because is the correct spelling in Catalan, which is the language of this person. --Amadalvarez (talk) 20:40, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Rarely is í used in Catalan. Stephen"Zap" (talk) 21:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Per above; without the accent is the correct native spelling.Wiki O'Ryan (talk) 23:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support --Ayuta Tonomura (talk) 03:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Sorry, this was my doing when I created the page a few weeks ago. I agree, it should be reverted back to the easier to type “Maria.” Daedal45 (talk) 04:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for creating this! Peaceray (talk) 04:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:34, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support, obvious decision and probably worth a speedy close. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 15:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support as per nom. Can someone with page mover rights move this, as it's clearly WP:SNOWing. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sources discrepancy

Possible refugee in the Spanish Civil War

Just to share a note of discrepancy in sources: one source we already cite says that Branyas and her husband fled Spain during the Civil War (separately) with their two children. I can't find any other sources that make reference to this event, and I'm suspicious that the same source says that they worked on the Republican side while we have two sources that say Moret worked in a Nationalist field hospital and had Nationalist sympathies (on top of him leading a Francoist health organisation). But if anyone who can read Catalan or Spanish better than I can wants to confirm/find more sources, please do! _MB190417_ (talk) 12:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I've found another reference, which says they fled Catalonia (but not necessarily Spain?) because Moret appeared on a Republican list of enemies. _MB190417_ (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Number of great-grandchildren

There have been at least two good-faith (but unreferenced) edits adding that Branyas has 11 great-grandchildren. From what I remember having edited over the past few days, the current source for the number of grandchildren, a newspaper article from July 2020, states Branyas has 13 great-grandchildren, while in an interview in October 2019, Branyas hesitated between 15 or 16 great-grandchildren. These numbers (13 and 15/16) also mean that I'm not sure where the number 11 has come from. In light of this uncertainty, absent any better consensus in sources than I've been able to find, my instinct is possibly not to report the number of great-grandchildren: the relevance of the information doesn't, for me, outweigh the disagreement in sources to report. _MB190417_ (talk) 14:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Can we just say that she has several great grandchildren instead of specifying a number? 2600:100C:A215:E059:4E7:4763:2114:A6FD (talk) 07:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Isn't that saying the obvious? _MB190417_ (talk) 09:31, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• MariaBrayansBanyolesSpain1928.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• MariaBranyaswithherfamily1914.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Birthplace

Was she born in the US or Mexico? Some sources are saying she was born in Mexico. 2600:100C:A215:E059:4E7:4763:2114:A6FD (talk) 07:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

The sources closest to her (i.e. interviews) are pretty unanimous in saying she was born in the US. It appears her family spent about a year in Mexico before moving to the US, before she was born, which may explain the confusion among a few other sources. _MB190417_ (talk) 09:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

True true. The 1910 Census listed her and her family as being born in Mexico though. 208.127.190.114 (talk) 22:42, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

The US Census is not without error. It is easy to imagine a census taker asking the previous residence, the age of the children, & not asking when they moved to the US. Peaceray (talk) 22:54, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I had a snoop around as you piqued my curiosity. There was a photo I found lying around on the Internet, and I can't see where it gives any credence to the Mexico story. It looks like the census first recorded her as born in Guatemala (where her sister, whose record is also in the photo, was born), but the mistake was realised, crossed out, and in its place came what looks like "S. Fran" (or "Spain" by another reading). The family is listed as 'Mexican Spanish', but there's pretty good coverage that they were Spanish, not Mexican (if I recall correctly, Josep was not Catalan). _MB190417_ (talk) 00:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Oldest COVID survivor

The article seems to imply Maria is the oldest survivor of COVID period without specification. But she is not, since as noted on her page, her predecessor Lucile Randon later got COVID during 2021 and recovered as well. Maria was oldest until Randon, then second oldest and now is the oldest still living survivor, not oldest without any qualification. 213.235.133.110 (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment; if I recall correctly, the wording was also contested when the content was introduced. I've edited the page, putting the explanation in a footnote, which is an inelegant but hopefully satisfactory solution. For what it's worth, I think the previous wording of "then-oldest" was sufficient and I suspect that, in time, few will care for the accolade of oldest Covid survivor to justify any in-article explanation (WP:RECENTISM). _MB190417_ (talk) 00:49, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Sticking point on mentioning age in travels

To follow up with recent edits – thank you again, Knowledgekid87, for your most thoughtful and helpful clear-up – the article now reads: In the 1990s, Branyas travelled to Egypt, Italy, the Netherlands, and England. It formerly read: In the 1990s, already in her 80s, Branyas travelled....

I defer to talk page consensus and won't revert, but my preference remains to include/emphasise Branyas' age here. I think it is only her age (coupled with the considerable list of destinations!) that makes this information non-trivial. The entire phrase has been contested in previous edits: an edit that removed the entire phrase as trivial holiday info was reverted by Peaceray on 26 January with the summary: the question is, did it contribute to her longevity? I would say most octogenarians do not travel. I agree, especially considering octogenarians in the 1990s were presumably much less likely to travel than octogenarians today. In my view, mentioning Branyas' age justifies to the reader the inclusion of the information in the article, the relevance of which might otherwise be lost.

(This sticking point speaks also partly to the question of whether the entire paragraph belongs to the 'Personal life' or 'Health and longevity' sections, but I think there are good arguments on either side, and I like how Knowledgekid87 has renamed and reorganised the sections. Evidently, piano-playing and exercising gymnastics later in life are signs of Branyas' health and longevity as much as they are ultimately information about her personal life, but they only merit inclusion in the article by virtue of Branyas' age.) _MB190417_ (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't read the Spanish in the source used, does it specifically highlight her "80s" as an age related feat? If so then it should be attributed to the source used with something like: "El Mundo cited Branyas being in her 80s while traveling as an exceptional feat." or "Branyas's age was cited by El Mundo as ....." This would give the age reasoning more weight. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

It roughly transtlates to In the 90s she would end up living with Rose. Widowhood in old Maria multiplied hobbies (sewing, music, reading) and brought new ones. "She signed up with a archeology group and traveled to Egypt, Italy, Countries Netherlands, England. Always culture".

I recommend keeping it for a couple of reasons. First if we were talking about someone else notable for something else other than longevity who extensively traveled in there old age, I do not think that we would blink at keeping this in the article. Second, if you really want a citation that taking up new hobbies & interacting with new people contributes to longevity, we can easily find one & add the text These types of activities have been shown to contribute to longevity. I think we would do readers a disservice to remove the travel information. Peaceray (talk) 03:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The source used isn't talking about her old age in regards to travel though? Her taking up music and reading isn't an issue (this just happens to be in the same sentence), what is an issue is making the old age travel connection. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Maria Branyas i Morera

      Given the note heading this article, 

shouldn't the mentions of her in new sections not simply say "Branyas", but "Branyas i Morera? YTKJ (talk) 21:25, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Really world's oldest person?

On the BBC Radio 4 news on Wednesday 1 November 2023, it was said that Charles III had met a man in Kenya, Sam Umbaria, who claimed to have been born in 1906. If this claim were authentic, Umbaria and not Branyas would be the world's odest person (he would be 117). YTKJ (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

The man was actually Samwel Nthigai Mburia, a corporal who fought in the Second World War and claims to have been born in 1906. The Daily Mail online mentions him. YTKJ (talk) 18:09, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, if his claim is authentic then he would be the oldest person in the world. In the meantime he should be added to Longevity claims if he hasn't already. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

‘In 2000, at age 93”? And she’s still living?

Under ‘Personal life, in 3rd paragraph, it says, “In 2000, at the age of 93…”

Something is wrong, if she’s still living! Maybe she was 83 at the time? HockeyCowboy (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

She was born in 1907. 1907 plus 93 equals 2000. Georgia guy (talk) 11:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

age

apparently it says she’s 121 years old when she isn’t she’s actually 116 nearly 117 next month 81.108.78.218 (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The page was vandalised by an anonymous editor. All changes made by this user have been reverted. INgIEroC (talk) 15:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Spanish

Please stop adding "Catalan" to the opening sentence. Her citizenship/nationality is SPANISH, not Catalan-- Catalania is an autonomous community and historical region, not a sovereign state or a country. Paul Vaurie (talk) 14:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if, following your point of view, Polish people born from 1939 to 1945 were germans or belarusians, or if the Dalai Lama is Chinese. Also, are the Wachowsky sisters to be named biological males at the start of their article? The point is not her nationality, which I have not modified in her infobox, but her ethnicity, which herself stated clearly as Catalan, while never speaking of a Spanish identity. On the other side, we could well call her an American-European super-centenarian. Last but not least, you can find thousands of biographies stating origins other than the nationality on the opening sentence. I suggest a relevant voting. Jordi2023 (talk) 15:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I found the exact rule of Wikipedia justifying my edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2018_archive#RfC_on_use_of_Spanish_regional_identity_in_biography_leads

"Use regional identity

Yes if the person has self-declared their identity = Basque or Catalan by word or action (eg member of a pro-Catalan party). This precident was set in another RfC on Talk:Carles Puigdemont a few days ago. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 03:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)"

I also find unjustified your comment to Mikaku " you're in the minority viewpoint on this" since no big pool of editors has enabled us to calculate proportions. Jordi2023 (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jordi2023: Do you have a citation that Branyas self-declared her identity as Catalan? I see nothing to that effect in the article. Peaceray (talk) 17:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep, her own Twitter account: https://x.com/mariabranyas112?lang=ca notice she identifies as "Catalan super grandma" instead of "Spanish". I think this is the main proof.

https://x.com/MariaBranyas112/status/1762054553086595266 check this thread, it can be readily translated by X's tools. Here she talks about persecutions against her language " We must take care of this great treasure we have: the Catalan language, with its culture and history. You have to think and live in Catalan. And I, too, die in Catalan.". Just a reminder that Catalan identity is strongly language-based.

She also retweeted three messages strongly suggesting she advocated Catalonia's independence: https://x.com/FrancescCerdo/status/1212409470657142785 https://x.com/GemmaGeis/status/1434066089227468806 https://x.com/imrateta/status/1292175244313219073 I can provide context if needed.

Lastly: https://x.com/MariaBranyas112/status/1283110353463910401 She is asking for an independent Catalan republic. Jordi2023 (talk) 19:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that as long as there is clear and sourced evidence that Branyas identified primarily as Catalan, that is how she should be defined. National (self-)identification is not limited to sovereign states. Procrastineur49 (talk) 18:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Since no further points of view have appeared, and according to the proof given and the Wikipedia rule stated above I proceed to change (again) the wording and request protection, since the ongoing edit war is all but serious. Jordi2023 (talk) 15:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Paul Vaurie: Please try to see other people's points of view, otherwise it would seem like a close-minded approach to the discussion. Catalonia is not a sovereign state, but that doesn't negate Catalan identity. According to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2018 archive#RfC on use of Spanish regional identity in biography leads, as was stated earlier by Jordi2023, if Branyas self-identified as Catalan rather than Spanish, it is reasonable for her biography to state likewise. If people could only be nationally/ethnically defined based on their sovereign state, why would we define some people as Kurdish, Sámi, Quechua, Puerto Rican or Xhosa? -- Brunnaiz (talk) 20:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)