Talk:Mariam Yahia Ibrahim Ishag

Original Research - removed

I removed this section. No sources cited, primary sources used by editor. The second statement is not supported at all by the cited source. Anon IP - you need to use secondary Reliable Sources for articles. See ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliable_Sources

Possible faulty interpretation of Muslim law

Traditionally (historically) the death sentence was only applied to apostates who joined another side which was considered equivalent to treason. Those who simply converted to another belief were not executed. The Qur’an states in Surah 10: 99: “If it had been the will of your Lord that all the people of the world should be believers, all the people of the world would have believed! Would you then compel them against their will to believe?”. The following is an example of how the Prophet dealt with solely apostasy, from a Hadith (a document that is part of islamic text yet which is separate from the Qur’an, with slightly lesser status) : "A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good". This is from Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318. Dr. M. E. Subhani commented on this text in his book, "Apostasy in Islam", wherein he wrote : “This was an open case of apostasy. But the Prophet neither punished the Bedouin, nor asked anyone to do it. He allowed him to leave Madina. Nobody harmed him.”

Judges who apply the death penalty to apostates (who are not also guilty of profound treason against their country, entirely separate from a change of faith), appear to have limited education in Islamic law. It is also notable that women were not traditionally sentenced to death even during times of war, because the prophet Muhammad declared vehemently that women should not be harmed. HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:33, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Balance to statement about internal Sudanese politics

The citation of Ghilan's statement ignores the widespread opinion in the Muslim world that death is an appropriate punishment for men and women leaving Islam, I have briefly summarised references from on line sites, the hadith, and an opinion poll to evidence this. The crosslink to Apostasy in Islam of course provides more detail. With specific respect to his assertion that the affair 'has little to do with religion' it is therefore manifestly inaccurate and potentially misleading, as such it does not warrant signposting in an encyclopaedic article as if it came from a neutral and objective expert. I have simply incorporated it in the text of the paragraph.Cpsoper (talk) 23:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)Cpsoper (talk) 12:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Prolonged silence from both the Secretary of State and President despite the involvement of 3 US citizens

Both have been criticised, see refs, for their prolonged silence, with contrasts being drawn with other cases, and despite considerable bipartisan lobbying. The silence has been broken by a little reported statement released only 12/6/14, weeks after the crisis broke [1]. It appears to stand in limp antithesis to Palmerston's 'civis sum' speech, when a US citizen is born into chains for no reason other than her mother's faith. For those with short memories or shallow learning, 'As the Roman, in days of old, held himself free from indignity when he could say 'Civis Romanus Sum' [I am a Roman citizen], so also a British subject in whatever land he may be, shall feel confident that the watchful eye and the strong arm of England will protect him against injustice and wrong.'Cpsoper (talk) 05:51, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

New NEWS today

Headline-1: BREAKING NEWS: Sudanese mother sentenced to death for 'converting to Christianity' freed after international outcry

• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2665929/BREAKING-NEWS-Sudanese-mother-sentenced-death-converting-Christianity-freed-international-outcry.html

QUOTE: "A court in Sudan today ordered the release of the 27-year-old woman sentenced to death last month for converting from Islam to Christianity, the state news agency said. The case of Meriam Ibrahim, who is married to a Christian American, triggered an international outcry. She gave birth to a baby daughter while in prison. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 14:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC) -- PS: FYI for future editing.

Headline-2: Sudan detains Christian woman previously sentenced to death she attempts to leave the country

• http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/sudan-summons-u-s-ambassador-christian-woman-attempt-leave-country-article-1.1843561

QUOTE: "Meriam Ibrahim was detained at a Khartoum airport for attempting to use an American visa and South Sudanese travel documents to escape the country. She was previously sentenced to death for refusing to recant Christianity." -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:07, 26 June 2014 (UTC) -- PS: FYI for future editing. (Very nice family picture.)

Removed section in intro

Wiki is not a news bureau, but currently MYI is still detained, and the intro as it stood was inaccurate, there was also duplication as the following paragraph maps the narrative more closely.Cpsoper (talk) 12:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the following lines should stay in the intro. She was released, then taken into police custody for a reportedly different issue. That should be made clear to the reader from the start. Aridd (talk) 15:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Amid intense pressure from the international community, she was eventually released by order of an appellate court on 23 June.<ref name="AFP 25 June" /> She was detained shortly after while trying to leave the country with her family.<ref name="AFP 25 June" />

Thanks, but what about the needless duplication below? how about combining the account of the release and rearrest succinctly? I suspect this will be resolved quickly anyway fairly soon.Cpsoper (talk) 19:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"Interpretation of Muslim texts" section

In my view this section should be deleted in its entirety - it does not belong in a BLP but rather in the article apostasy in Islam.--ukexpat (talk) 18:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.Cpsoper (talk) 19:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed and removed. Was it removed before? And snuck back in by Islamic apologists? It was nothing more than a poorly referenced cherry-picked apologists piece that had no place in the article. Somchai Sun (talk) 18:29, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Biographical material on brother defamatory

The additional material about the motivation of the half brother, although reported by Meriam's lawyers may be regarded as defamatory and seems to violate WP:LIVE - in my view, it ought to be removed, I don't think this is true of his call for her execution, given that this has been an official government position and a widely held position amongst Muslims in general.Cpsoper (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. In my view WP:LIVE refers to information that is unsourced or poorly sourced. This information about the motivation for Mariam's half brother and half sister bringing the court case is reported in multiple reliable sources. [2], [3] WP:LIVE discourages information from primary sources such as court records etc. The sources for this information are secondary sources. In my view, without these statements by Mariam's husband and lawyers, this paragraph has a big gap about possible motivations. Why would a (half) brother want his sister executed based on a flaky accusation? SylviaStanley (talk) 18:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Daughter image removed for reasons unclear

Replaced, please discuss if removal intended. Cpsoper (talk) 12:19, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

How to refer to her name

The lead paragraph calls her either "Mariam" or "Maryam," yet the rest of the article calls her "Meriam." Shouldn't there be some consistency here?--Quisqualis (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Most sources use the spelling Meriam, I have always had difficulty understanding why any other spelling has been used. Cpsoper (talk) 05:58, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I also noticed the sources. This may have something to do with the preferences of the editors who started the article. Perhaps a move to the common spelling would be appropriate. I'll contact other editors of this article.--Quisqualis (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

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Dubious - Wider Issues

"..."Whoever renounces his religion, kill him." It has, for example, been a view commonly held by young Muslims in the UK..."

Secondary source points to one poll of 1,000 muslims living in the UK, of which an unknown number were aged 16-24, of which "Nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed". This is not a statistically significant figure considering that the muslim population of the United Kingdom is in the millions (source: latest census data). Suggest this section of text is misleading in the use of the word "common", potentially harmful, and should be removed, or significantly clarified. Genericist (talk) 02:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)